Nope. That's, as I recall, the son of Jan Dircks Meyer. Interestingly, Meyer's wife, Tryntie Gravenraedt, was the sole witness at the baptism of Jan Dirck's first child. Meyer's home was right next to Fort Amsterdam and Trytnie. I can find no record of it but my speculation is that Meyers rented a room to Sara Theunis. I think I also found mention that Tryntie was an occasional midwife. Other than those things there's no apparent connection between the Meyers and the Van Arnhems. They all seem to fit the picture of a new soldier and his pregnant wife who have no connections to the community. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen and Sara Teunis Pete, could this be our Jan Dirksz? 1686 04 Aug; Jan Dirckxen, jm van N. Yorke; Catalina Cloppers, jd van N. Yorke, beyde woonende alhier 1692 18 Mar; John Stephenszen, jm van Douveren; Catalina Cloppers, wid Jan Dircxen, beyde woonende alhier. eodem Google won't translate "beyde woonende alhier". I think it means "resides here", but not sure. On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 5:06 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Mistranslation. "Geboorteplaats bruid" Geboorte(n) means birth. Plaats is > place. Bruid is obviously bride. "Bride's birth place". > > Don't read too much into "birth". Not only did they not always give their > actual birth place, but who knows what the original record states. > "Geboorteplaats" is probably a word that BHIC uses, and may not be the > same > used on the actual original record. > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 4:33 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > wrote: >> >> What does hometown wedding: Rotterdam mean? I know Sara is from Rotterdam >> but what does home hometown wedding indicate? Could they have been >> married >> in Rotterdam? Did anyone renew their vows once arriving in New Amsterdam >> to >> be legally married in both places? >> >> Susan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >> Source Type: Wedding Book >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >> Belief: NDG >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >> Groom: January Dircksz >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >> Young Daughter bride: J >> Previous partner groom: >> Previous partner bride >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >> > would >> > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >> > his >> > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >> > the >> > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >> flip-flopping >> > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >> have >> > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >> > >> > They were married Jun 28 1664: >> > Soort bron: Trouwboek >> > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> > Gezindte: NDG >> > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> > Jongedochter bruid: J >> > Vorige partner bruidegom: >> > Vorige partner bruid: >> > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> > >> > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> > have >> > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >> > have >> > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >> > during) >> > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >> > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >> > speculating over). >> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < >> > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >> work >> >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >> >> children >> >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> >> obviously >> a >> >> different person. >> >> >> >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >> >> wise >> >> the >> >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >> >> >> >> My previous question: >> >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >> Jan >> >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >> >> Did >> >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >> >> Teunis >> >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >> >> >> >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >> >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >> >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pete, could this be our Jan Dirksz? 1686 04 Aug; Jan Dirckxen, jm van N. Yorke; Catalina Cloppers, jd van N. Yorke, beyde woonende alhier 1692 18 Mar; John Stephenszen, jm van Douveren; Catalina Cloppers, wid Jan Dircxen, beyde woonende alhier. eodem Google won't translate "beyde woonende alhier". I think it means "resides here", but not sure. On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 5:06 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Mistranslation. "Geboorteplaats bruid" Geboorte(n) means birth. Plaats is > place. Bruid is obviously bride. "Bride's birth place". > > Don't read too much into "birth". Not only did they not always give their > actual birth place, but who knows what the original record states. > "Geboorteplaats" is probably a word that BHIC uses, and may not be the same > used on the actual original record. > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 4:33 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > wrote: >> >> What does hometown wedding: Rotterdam mean?  I know Sara is from Rotterdam >> but what does home hometown wedding indicate?   Could they have been >> married >> in Rotterdam?  Did anyone renew their vows once arriving in New Amsterdam >> to >> be legally married in both places? >> >> Susan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >> Source Type: Wedding Book >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >> Belief: NDG >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >> Groom: January Dircksz >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >> Young Daughter bride: J >> Previous partner groom: >> Previous partner bride >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would >> > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his >> > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >> > the >> > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >> flip-flopping >> > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >> have >> > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >> > >> > They were married Jun 28 1664: >> > Soort bron: Trouwboek >> > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> > Gezindte: NDG >> > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> > Jongedochter bruid: J >> > Vorige partner bruidegom: >> > Vorige partner bruid: >> > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> > >> > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> > have >> > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have >> > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >> > during) >> > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >> > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >> > speculating over). >> >   On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < >> > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >> work >> >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640.  He could not have had 3 >> >> children >> >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659.  So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> >> obviously >> a >> >> different person. >> >> >> >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise >> >> the >> >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >> >> >> >> My previous question: >> >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen?  Did our >> Jan >> >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >> >>  Did >> >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >> >> Teunis >> >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >> >> >> >> 57       Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >> >> 58       Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >> >> 59 - 61  three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>  ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

I got tired of wading through completely different webpages for basically same info, and found this: http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/vital_statistics.htm http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/NA_DRC_marr.zip      New Amsterdam marriages 1639-1801 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/NA_DRC_bap.zip       New Amsterdam baptisms 1639-1730 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/NA_DRC2_bap.zip        New Amsterdam baptisms 1731-1800 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/P_Rich_bap.zip            Port Richmond, S.I. baptisms 1696-1790 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Moravia_marr.zip         Moravian Church, S.I. marriages 1764-1863 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Albany_marr.zip      Albany, N.Y. marriages 1683-1724 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Albany_bap.zip       Albany, N.Y. baptisms 1683-1724 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Kingston_marr.zip        Kingston, N.Y. marriages 1660-1809 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Kingston_bap.zip         Kingston, N.Y. baptisms 1660-1809 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Bergen_marr.zip           Bergen, N.J. marriages 1660-1788 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Bergen_bap.zip           Bergen, N.J. baptisms 1666-1789 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Jamaica_memb.zip        Jamaica, L.I. membership 1786-1884 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Flatbush_marr.zip          Flatbush, L.I. marriages 1677-1757 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Flatbush_bap.zip           Flatbush, L.I. baptisms 1677-1754 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Newtown_bap.zip        Newtown, L.I. baptisms 1736-1817 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/Newtown_marr.zip      Newtown, L.I. marriages 1835-1846 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/NY_French_marr.zip      New York French Church marriages 1699-1801 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/NY_French_bap.zip       New York French Church Baptisms 1688-1804 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/SchenectadyP_marr.zip    Schenectady, N.Y. marriages 1662-1800 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/SchenectadyP_bap.zip     Schenectady, N.Y. baptisms 1662-1800 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/SH_marr.zip Sleepy Hollow, N.Y. marriages 1698-1790 http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/SH_bap.zip Sleepy Hollow, N.Y. baptisms 1697-1786

Mistranslation. "Geboorteplaats bruid" Geboorte(n) means birth. Plaats is place. Bruid is obviously bride. "Bride's birth place". Don't read too much into "birth". Not only did they not always give their actual birth place, but who knows what the original record states. "Geboorteplaats" is probably a word that BHIC uses, and may not be the same used on the actual original record. On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 4:33 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > > What does hometown wedding: Rotterdam mean? I know Sara is from Rotterdam > but what does home hometown wedding indicate? Could they have been > married > in Rotterdam? Did anyone renew their vows once arriving in New Amsterdam > to > be legally married in both places? > > Susan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Sorry, translation of marriage record: > Source Type: Wedding Book > Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York > Proclamation: 06/28/1664 > Belief: NDG > Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York > Groom: January Dircksz > Hometown groom: Arnhem > Bride: Sara Theunisz > Hometown wedding: Rotterdam > Young Daughter bride: J > Previous partner groom: > Previous partner bride > Further information: The groom is a soldier > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would > > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his > > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use > the > > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of > flip-flopping > > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could > have > > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. > > > > They were married Jun 28 1664: > > Soort bron: Trouwboek > > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > > Gezindte: NDG > > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > > Jongedochter bruid: J > > Vorige partner bruidegom: > > Vorige partner bruid: > > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > > > > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have > > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have > > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or > during) > > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his > > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been > > speculating over). > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < > > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't > work > >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 > >> children > >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously > a > >> different person. > >> > >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise > >> the > >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . > >> > >> My previous question: > >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our > Jan > >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? > >> Did > >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara > >> Teunis > >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? > >> > >> > >> > >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 > >> > >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer > >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) > >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

What does hometown wedding: Rotterdam mean? I know Sara is from Rotterdam but what does home hometown wedding indicate? Could they have been married in Rotterdam? Did anyone renew their vows once arriving in New Amsterdam to be legally married in both places? Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Sorry, translation of marriage record: Source Type: Wedding Book Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York Proclamation: 06/28/1664 Belief: NDG Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York Groom: January Dircksz Hometown groom: Arnhem Bride: Sara Theunisz Hometown wedding: Rotterdam Young Daughter bride: J Previous partner groom: Previous partner bride Further information: The groom is a soldier On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use the > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of flip-flopping > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could have > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. > > They were married Jun 28 1664: > Soort bron: Trouwboek > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > Gezindte: NDG > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > Jongedochter bruid: J > Vorige partner bruidegom: > Vorige partner bruid: > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or during) > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been > speculating over). > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't work >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >> children >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously a >> different person. >> >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise >> the >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >> >> My previous question: >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our Jan >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >> Did >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >> Teunis >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >> >> >> >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >> >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Doesn't appear to be a gap in the dates; probably a blank page or something. These records were a simple ledger style, one line after the next with no filler. I don't think the years were actually recorded, but were in volumns. Any error in the recording of the year would be immediately apparant to the original transcriber(s). On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:49 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > John, > > You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. > Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not > notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not > previously married) until you pointed it out. > > I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec 31, > 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are > several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, > LOL. > Thanks again! > > Susan > > 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina > 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje > Jans > - page 76 > 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, > Juffr. Ver Brack > 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, > Jacomyntie du Wel > 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, > Ariaentie > 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet > Lodovyckszen > 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen > - page 78 > 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, > Marie Dopzen > 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, > El > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships > were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived intact. > In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying > passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been > recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. in > Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New > Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may not > have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. > These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but > manifests by Dutch West Co. > > They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch > Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The > concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages > were > the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce > their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture > that > it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married > to > come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, apprentishship > masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record > searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was > similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with > disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a > requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, > basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, she > was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: J" > - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") > > If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. > > BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The > actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > > > I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara > > Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. > > Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like > > other > > staff. > > > > If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to > > get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If > > she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get > married > > once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young > > widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. > > > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > > > Sorry, translation of marriage record: > > Source Type: Wedding Book > > Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York > > Proclamation: 06/28/1664 > > Belief: NDG > > Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York > > Groom: January Dircksz > > Hometown groom: Arnhem > > Bride: Sara Theunisz > > Hometown wedding: Rotterdam > > Young Daughter bride: J > > Previous partner groom: > > Previous partner bride > > Further information: The groom is a soldier > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk > would > > > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as > his > > > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use > > the > > > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of > > flip-flopping > > > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could > > have > > > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. > > > > > > They were married Jun 28 1664: > > > Soort bron: Trouwboek > > > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > > > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > > > Gezindte: NDG > > > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > > > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > > > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > > > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > > > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > > > Jongedochter bruid: J > > > Vorige partner bruidegom: > > > Vorige partner bruid: > > > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > > > > > > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I > have > > > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to > have > > > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or > > during) > > > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his > > > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been > > > speculating over). > > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < > > > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't > > work > > >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 > > >> children > > >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is > obviously > > a > > >> different person. > > >> > > >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age > wise > > >> the > > >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . > > >> > > >> My previous question: > > >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our > > Jan > > >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? > > >> Did > > >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara > > >> Teunis > > >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 > > >> > > >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer > > >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) > > >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sure... On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:51 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > That's a good idea. Would you be willing to contact her John? > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:42 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > No sources and not updated since 2004. Perhaps someone should contact > Laurie > Garrison...? LG7485@aol.com > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

That's a good idea. Would you be willing to contact her John? Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:42 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz No sources and not updated since 2004. Perhaps someone should contact Laurie Garrison...? LG7485@aol.com

John, You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not previously married) until you pointed it out. I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec 31, 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, LOL. Thanks again! Susan 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje Jans - page 76 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, Juffr. Ver Brack 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, Jacomyntie du Wel 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, Ariaentie 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet Lodovyckszen 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen - page 78 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, Marie Dopzen 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, El -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived intact. In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. in Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may not have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but manifests by Dutch West Co. They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages were the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture that it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married to come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, apprentishship masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, she was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: J" - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara > Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. > Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like > other > staff. > > If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to > get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If > she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get married > once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young > widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Sorry, translation of marriage record: > Source Type: Wedding Book > Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York > Proclamation: 06/28/1664 > Belief: NDG > Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York > Groom: January Dircksz > Hometown groom: Arnhem > Bride: Sara Theunisz > Hometown wedding: Rotterdam > Young Daughter bride: J > Previous partner groom: > Previous partner bride > Further information: The groom is a soldier > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would > > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his > > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use > the > > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of > flip-flopping > > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could > have > > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. > > > > They were married Jun 28 1664: > > Soort bron: Trouwboek > > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > > Gezindte: NDG > > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > > Jongedochter bruid: J > > Vorige partner bruidegom: > > Vorige partner bruid: > > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > > > > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have > > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have > > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or > during) > > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his > > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been > > speculating over). > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < > > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't > work > >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 > >> children > >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously > a > >> different person. > >> > >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise > >> the > >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . > >> > >> My previous question: > >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our > Jan > >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? > >> Did > >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara > >> Teunis > >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? > >> > >> > >> > >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 > >> > >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer > >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) > >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

No sources and not updated since 2004. Perhaps someone should contact Laurie Garrison...? LG7485@aol.com On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > Thanks Linda: > > Here is a more detailed pedigree that I found on the web that looks > interesting. The complete pedigree is at the below link. I added > Generation > No. 1 to my Claggett Family Tree to see what kind of hints or notes from > other family members. > > Susan > > > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/a/r/Laurie-Garrison/PDFGENE3.pd > f<http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/a/r/Laurie-Garrison/PDFGENE3.pdf> > > Descendants of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem > Generation No. 1 > 1. DIRK JANSZ1 VAN ARNHEM was born in Netherlands. He married MAGDELENA > JANS > April 22, > 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Netherlands. She was born in Netherlands. > More About DIRK JANSZ VAN ARNHEM: > Military service: Officer under General Count von Nassau > Children of DIRK VAN ARNHEM and MAGDELENA JANS are: > 2. i. JAN DIRKSZ2 VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. October 13, 1640, Arnhem, Gelderland, > Netherlands. > ii. DIRRICXKEN VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. February 03, 1638/39. > More About DIRRICXKEN VAN ARNHEM: > Christening: February 03, 1638/39, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhem > iii. JORIS VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. January 25, 1642/43. > More About JORIS VAN ARNHEM: > Christening: January 25, 1642/43, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhem > iv. HENDRIK VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. July 14, 1647. > More About HENDRIK VAN ARNHEM: > Christening: July 14, 1647, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhem > v. MARRICKEN VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. November 07, 1649. > More About MARRICKEN VAN ARNHEM: > Christening: November 07, 1649, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhe > > Generation No. 2 > 2. JAN DIRKSZ2 VAN ARNHEM (DIRK JANSZ1) was born Abt. October 13, 1640 in > Arnhem, Gelderland, > Netherlands. He married SARA TEUNIS June 28, 1664 in Dutch Reform Church in > New Amsterdam > (NYC). She was born Abt. 1643 in Rotterdam, Province of South Holland, > Netherlands. > More About JAN DIRKSZ VAN ARNHEM: > Christening: October 13, 1640, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhem > Military service: 1664, Soldier from city of Arnhem > More About SARA TEUNIS: > Immigration: 1664, Ship: The Faith ( De Trouw ) > Children of JAN VAN ARNHEM and SARA TEUNIS are: > 3. i. JAN JANSZ3 VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. June 04, 1671, New Amsterdam, New > Netherlands; > d. April 01, 1708. > -----Original Message----- > From: Linda Schwenn [mailto:schwel@comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:35 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have > not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the > current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found > duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan > Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an > officer > in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. > Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, Prince > of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or > fact? > > *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* > > > *Individual Summary:* > > *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* > > > > > > Sex: > > Male > > > Father: > > Jan Derryckssen > > > Mother: > > Gerriken Beecken > > > > > > *Individual Facts:* > > > > > > > Birth: > > Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > Reference ID: > > 33 > > > Death: > > Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > Military Service: > > officer under General Count von Nassau > > > > > > *Shared Facts:* > > *Magdalena Jans* > > > > > > Marriage: > > 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > Reference ID: > > 1692 > > > Children: > > Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA > > > > Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA > > > > Joris Van Arnhem VA > > > > Hendrik Van Arnhem VA > > > > Marricken Van Arnhem VA > > > > *Notes:* > > > Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] > > > Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. > > > Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in > "Man in a Golden Helmet". > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived intact. In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. in Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may not have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but manifests by Dutch West Co. They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages were the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture that it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married to come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, apprentishship masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, she was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: J" - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara > Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. > Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like > other > staff. > > If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to > get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If > she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get married > once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young > widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Sorry, translation of marriage record: > Source Type: Wedding Book > Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York > Proclamation: 06/28/1664 > Belief: NDG > Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York > Groom: January Dircksz > Hometown groom: Arnhem > Bride: Sara Theunisz > Hometown wedding: Rotterdam > Young Daughter bride: J > Previous partner groom: > Previous partner bride > Further information: The groom is a soldier > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would > > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his > > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use > the > > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of > flip-flopping > > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could > have > > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. > > > > They were married Jun 28 1664: > > Soort bron: Trouwboek > > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > > Gezindte: NDG > > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > > Jongedochter bruid: J > > Vorige partner bruidegom: > > Vorige partner bruid: > > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > > > > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have > > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have > > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or > during) > > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his > > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been > > speculating over). > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < > > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't > work > >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 > >> children > >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously > a > >> different person. > >> > >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise > >> the > >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . > >> > >> My previous question: > >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our > Jan > >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? > >> Did > >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara > >> Teunis > >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? > >> > >> > >> > >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 > >> > >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer > >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) > >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks Linda: Here is a more detailed pedigree that I found on the web that looks interesting. The complete pedigree is at the below link. I added Generation No. 1 to my Claggett Family Tree to see what kind of hints or notes from other family members. Susan http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/g/a/r/Laurie-Garrison/PDFGENE3.pd f Descendants of Dirk Jansz van Arnhem Generation No. 1 1. DIRK JANSZ1 VAN ARNHEM was born in Netherlands. He married MAGDELENA JANS April 22, 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Netherlands. She was born in Netherlands. More About DIRK JANSZ VAN ARNHEM: Military service: Officer under General Count von Nassau Children of DIRK VAN ARNHEM and MAGDELENA JANS are: 2. i. JAN DIRKSZ2 VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. October 13, 1640, Arnhem, Gelderland, Netherlands. ii. DIRRICXKEN VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. February 03, 1638/39. More About DIRRICXKEN VAN ARNHEM: Christening: February 03, 1638/39, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhem iii. JORIS VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. January 25, 1642/43. More About JORIS VAN ARNHEM: Christening: January 25, 1642/43, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhem iv. HENDRIK VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. July 14, 1647. More About HENDRIK VAN ARNHEM: Christening: July 14, 1647, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhem v. MARRICKEN VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. November 07, 1649. More About MARRICKEN VAN ARNHEM: Christening: November 07, 1649, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhe Generation No. 2 2. JAN DIRKSZ2 VAN ARNHEM (DIRK JANSZ1) was born Abt. October 13, 1640 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Netherlands. He married SARA TEUNIS June 28, 1664 in Dutch Reform Church in New Amsterdam (NYC). She was born Abt. 1643 in Rotterdam, Province of South Holland, Netherlands. More About JAN DIRKSZ VAN ARNHEM: Christening: October 13, 1640, Dutch Reform Church, Arnhem Military service: 1664, Soldier from city of Arnhem More About SARA TEUNIS: Immigration: 1664, Ship: The Faith ( De Trouw ) Children of JAN VAN ARNHEM and SARA TEUNIS are: 3. i. JAN JANSZ3 VAN ARNHEM, b. Abt. June 04, 1671, New Amsterdam, New Netherlands; d. April 01, 1708. -----Original Message----- From: Linda Schwenn [mailto:schwel@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:35 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an officer in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, Prince of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or fact? *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* *Individual Summary:* *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* Sex: Male Father: Jan Derryckssen Mother: Gerriken Beecken *Individual Facts:* Birth: Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland Reference ID: 33 Death: Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland Military Service: officer under General Count von Nassau *Shared Facts:* *Magdalena Jans* Marriage: 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland Reference ID: 1692 Children: Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA Joris Van Arnhem VA Hendrik Van Arnhem VA Marricken Van Arnhem VA *Notes:* Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in "Man in a Golden Helmet". ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like other staff. If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get married once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Sorry, translation of marriage record: Source Type: Wedding Book Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York Proclamation: 06/28/1664 Belief: NDG Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York Groom: January Dircksz Hometown groom: Arnhem Bride: Sara Theunisz Hometown wedding: Rotterdam Young Daughter bride: J Previous partner groom: Previous partner bride Further information: The groom is a soldier On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use the > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of flip-flopping > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could have > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. > > They were married Jun 28 1664: > Soort bron: Trouwboek > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > Gezindte: NDG > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > Jongedochter bruid: J > Vorige partner bruidegom: > Vorige partner bruid: > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or during) > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been > speculating over). > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't work >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >> children >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously a >> different person. >> >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise >> the >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >> >> My previous question: >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our Jan >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >> Did >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >> Teunis >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >> >> >> >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >> >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For clarification, it's theoretically possible he IS one of the other Jan Dirksz, and simply used more than one place as "home town", although Pete says that's not realistic for reasons aside from conception of Dirkjt. But his father must be Dirk [unknown]. [fixed translation below] On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:56 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry, translation of marriage record: > Source Type: Wedding Book > Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York > Proclamation: 06/28/1664 > Belief: NDG > Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York > Groom: Jan Dirckszen > Hometown groom: Arnhem > Bride: Sara Theuniszen > Hometown wedding: Rotterdam > Young Daughter bride: Yes > Previous partner groom: > Previous partner bride > Further information: The groom is a soldier > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would >> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his >> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use the >> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of flip-flopping >> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could have >> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >> >> They were married Jun 28 1664: >> Soort bron: Trouwboek >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> Gezindte: NDG >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> Jongedochter bruid: J >> Vorige partner bruidegom: >> Vorige partner bruid: >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> >> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have >> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have >> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or during) >> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >> speculating over). >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < >> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> >>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>> work >>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>> children >>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously >>> a >>> different person. >>> >>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise >>> the >>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>> >>> My previous question: >>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>> Jan >>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>> Did >>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>> Teunis >>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>> >>> >>> >>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>> >>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >

Sorry, translation of marriage record: Source Type: Wedding Book Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York Proclamation: 06/28/1664 Belief: NDG Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York Groom: January Dircksz Hometown groom: Arnhem Bride: Sara Theunisz Hometown wedding: Rotterdam Young Daughter bride: J Previous partner groom: Previous partner bride Further information: The groom is a soldier On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use the > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of flip-flopping > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could have > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. > > They were married Jun 28 1664: > Soort bron: Trouwboek > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 > Gezindte: NDG > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam > Jongedochter bruid: J > Vorige partner bruidegom: > Vorige partner bruid: > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat > > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or during) > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been > speculating over). > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't work >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >> children >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously a >> different person. >> >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise >> the >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >> >> My previous question: >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our Jan >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >> Did >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >> Teunis >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >> >> >> >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >> >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use the same names generation after generation, creating an effect of flip-flopping names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could have been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. They were married Jun 28 1664: Soort bron: Trouwboek Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 Gezindte: NDG Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem Bruid: Sara Theuniszen Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam Jongedochter bruid: J Vorige partner bruidegom: Vorige partner bruid: Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or during) the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been speculating over). On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't work > if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 children > 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously a > different person. > > But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise the > son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . > > My previous question: > Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our Jan > Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? Did > his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara > Teunis > and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? > > > > DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 > > 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer > 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) > 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't work if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 children 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously a different person. But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise the son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . My previous question: Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our Jan Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? Did his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara Teunis and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years

"If conceived on arrival..." I posited that they met aboard, and didn't consumate until arrival. However, I would think that the first thing an unmarried woman with no family would do on arrival would be to find a husband. The alternative would be to be a cleaning servant, which amounted to the worst parts of marriage, and I would think would very often include other "services". Or being a cleaning "servant", i.e. euphemism for outright prostitute. "Or she could have been raped." This is pure speculation, but... I imagine this happened more than we'd like to think. A woman in a distant land filled with men, possibly no family and few, if any, friends. Where would an unemployed arrival do? Where would they go? They would probably wander around, wondering where they were going to go and what they were going to do. Stranger in a strange land, yada yada, wandering strange streets, in a city with a high male-to-female ratio...? Even after such a speculative event, a soldier would probably still be willing to marry her. If anything, it would explain why she married a soldier. But there's no way to know how often, let alone any reason to believe it occured with Sara. I'm leaning towards the "three months of desperately unconsummated love", rather than conceived onboard, although I'm less romantic. Stuck on a cramped, cold ship with unwashed, crude soldiers all around, dried unpalatable food, and not so much as a tv in sight for 300 years... Not my idea of a romantic get-away. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > "If conceived on arrival..." Old Jan Dircks must have been an awfully > smooth talker or Sara was a roundheel. Met, courted and impregnated > within, > let's say, a month of her arrival. I'd accept an 8-month baby but unless > Sara hopped off the boat and straight into bed with a guy she'd just met > you > have to posit something closer to a 7-month one. > > (Incidentally, I'm not working just off Dirkje's baptism--which I've > arbitrarily set as two weeks after her birth. Note Jan and Sara were > married in at the end of June. However the banns had to be posted for a > month previous to that. Assume Sarah waited for three missed periods to > "be > sure". From either recorded event we end up with a conception in mid- or > late-March.) > > "Or she could have been raped." So Jan met her and shortly married her > even > though she was carrying another man's child. That would make him more > saintly than the general run of the males, never mind the subset of > soldiers, a group not noted for their enlightened social views. > > The simplest explanation is Jan Dircks was on DeTrouw with Sara and somehow > they managed a fast fornication in the forecastle or something. > > If you prefer a more palatable alternative I'm also willing to posit three > months of desperately unconsummated love at sea followed instanter upon > landing by a gallop across the percales. That would eliminate the > privacy-aboard-ship problem and only require Dirkje to be born a little > premature, a not uncomon feature in the first pregnancy of a young white > woman, at least by modern statistics. > > Either way, though, Jan Dircks had to be aboard DeTrouw with Sara. All > other explanations "multiply entities unnecessarily", not to mention > implausibly. > > --------- > I just did a quick scan to see if anything new had turned up on the subject > of soldiers. I find reference to a letter from the WIC directors to > Stuyvesant indicating they sent him at least 40 of them in early 1664. > > --pete > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen > NewAmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 > > > >I disagree with Pete, in that I find it more likely she concieved on > > arrival. If conceived upon arrival, Dirkjz would have been premature > about > > 3, maybe 4 weeks. Personally, I think this is more likely than onboard > > (he > > points out the difficulites of enroute). Regardless, even if she > > conceived > > on arrival, I agree it's probable she met the father onboard. Or she > could > > have been raped. > > > > There is known to have been one soldier onboard De Trouw (1664), and > where > > there's one, there's more. (Norbardus Bodas, soldier from Antwerp.) > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> More reliable due to Lorrine's high standards: > >> > >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_intro.shtml > >> > >> Here's DeTrouw 1664: > >> > >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/nnship34.shtml > >> > >> DeTrouw made the trip with some regularity. The last one before the > >> Dutch > >> surrender of New Amsterdam left Netherlands Jan. 19, 1664, arriving > Apr. > >> 17. 1664. > >> > >> That 1659 voyage with 108 passengers listed, however, provides some sort > >> of > >> measure of the actual capacity of De Trouw. There could have been > many > >> more aboard on the 1664 voyage than the 13 adults and 7 children known > >> from > >> the ship's books and notarial records. > >> > >> --pete > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:11 PM > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New > >> AmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 > >> > >> > >> > Pete are we talking about the same sailing of the De Trouw? This > >> > reference > >> > says it arrived in 1659 and Dirckje was baptized in 1664. > >> > > >> > Susan > >> > > >> > Amsterdam, Netherlands to New Netherland (New York) sailed 12 February > >> > 1659 > >> > arrived May 1659 > >> > Captain: Jan Jansen Bestevaer > >> > De Trouw (In The Faith) sailed from Amsterdam February 12, 1659 under > >> > Captain Jan Jansen Bestevaer arriving at New Amsterdam May, 1659. > >> > http://www.immigrantships.net/v10/1600v10/detrouw16590500.html > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1664 > >> > 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1669 > >> > Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria > >> Wouters > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1671 > >> > 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, > >> > Mayken > >> > Laurens > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1673 > >> > 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna > >> > Le > >> > Maistre > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1675 > >> > 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden ??? > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1677 > >> > 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, > >> > Tryntie > >> > Hercks > >> > > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1680 > >> > 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel > >> > Terneur, > >> > Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:25 PM > >> > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam > >> > Baptismsfrom1639-1730 > >> > > >> > Please look for my post a few months ago about Pym Van Arnhem's > >> > Netherland-based web page. > >> > > >> > Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) isn't any of the many other Jan Dircks's > during > >> > the > >> > period in New Amsterdam. In the first place most of them have their > >> > own > >> > documented histories, anyway. More important, though, look at the > date > >> of > >> > baptism of Jan Dircks' first child, daughter Dirkje. Then look at > the > >> > date > >> > > >> > De Trouw reached port. Unless you resort to unneccessarily > complicated > >> > explanations, Sara Theunis was at least a month pregnant when when she > >> > disembarked the ship which had been at sea for three months. Again, > >> > unless > >> > you resort to complicated ( indeed, wholly unlikely) explanations, Jan > >> > Dircks is the guy who made her that way so he was on the ship, too. > >> > > >> > De Trouw and Gekruyste Hart both left Amsterdam within a day of each > >> other > >> > at the wrong time of the year for the voyage. However, it was the > >> > right > >> > time of year for WIC to send about 200 soldiers to New Amsterdam to > >> > protect > >> > against an anticipated attack by the British. > >> > > >> > There's no record I can find that soldiers were aboard the two ships > >> > but > >> > the > >> > > >> > ships had to have been carrying something. There are indications the > >> New > >> > Amsterdam garrison was considerably larger after the ships had > arrived. > >> > > >> > Stuyvesant in Jan 1664 had sent a letter to the company requesting 400 > >> > reinforcements but he was at the end of the news chain and the WIC > >> > directors were at the front end. They could read the tea leaves as > >> > well > >> > as > >> > he could and long before he even got a squint at them in any case. > >> > > >> > Don't ask me how Jan Dircks and Sara managed to do it on a little ship > >> > packed with a company of soldiers in the middle of the Atlantic in > >> Winter. > >> > "Love laughs at locks," and a lot of other impediments if I recall the > >> > days > >> > of my youth correctly. (There's a remote chance the ships might have > >> > dropped reinforcements at Guyana or the Antilles before swinging north > >> > to > >> > New Amsterdam; I haven't been able to figure out an average length of > >> time > >> > for a winter crossing because it's not clear if there ever were any > >> > others.) > >> > > >> > There should be WIC and notarial records on all this. However they're > >> > going > >> > > >> > to be in Dutch and they're going to be in the Netherlands. Assuming > >> > they > >> > survived 350 years of fires, floods, bugs, rats and God knows what > else > >> in > >> > the first place. > >> > > >> > I'd really love to know who in New Amsterdam paid Sara's passage on > >> > DeTrouw > >> > (the only reason we know about it at all is that it wasn't paid at the > >> > Amsterdam end) but I've never been able to find that. > >> > > >> > --pete > >> > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:36 PM > >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam > Baptisms > >> > from1639-1730 > >> > > >> > > >> >> This is interesting. Note the name Tryntie again below. Jan > Dircksen > >> >> van > >> >> Bremen's wife was Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen). Does anyone > >> >> think > >> >> we may be looking at the same person in Jan Dircksen van Bremen and > >> >> our > >> >> Jan > >> >> Dirckszen who was married to Sara Theunis? Was she his second wife? > >> >> > >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie > Grevenraedt > >> >> > >> >> I don't think I have ever visited this page before of early baptismal > >> >> records. Maybe I have? The all start to blend together. Lots of > Jan > >> >> Dirckszen hits at the below link. > >> >> > >> >> Susan > >> >> > >> >> http://longislandgenealogy.com/baptisms/baps.html > >> >> > >> >> New Amsterdam Baptisms from 1639-1730 > >> >> These are complete to the end of 1730 as per Vol II of the > >> >> Collections of the New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, > >> 1901'. > >> >> Originally appearing on the site of Robert L. Billard > >> >> You can visit his site at > >> >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~rbillard/index.htm > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] > >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:18 PM > >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Immigrants to New Netherlands 1623-64 > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > http://www.family-crests.com/family-crest-coat-of-arms/surnames-7-7/immigran > >> >> ts-to-new-netherlands-1623.html > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Scandinavian Immigrants in New York > >> >> 1630-1674 > >> >> > >> >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/evjen/407evj.html > >> >> > >> >> Interesting description of Jan Dircksen from Bremen at above link > >> >> midway > >> >> down the page. His wife's name was Tryntie Anders. Just below Jan > >> >> Dircksen > >> >> is a Lucas Dircksen from Berg German married to Annetje Cornelis. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Jan Van Bremen Dircksen's Details > >> >> > >> >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Birthdate: > >> >> > >> >> 1620 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Birthplace: > >> >> > >> >> Bremen, Germany > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Death: > >> >> > >> >> Died September 15, 1668 in Albany, New York > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Occupation: > >> >> > >> >> IMMIGRATION: 1638 From Texel to New Amsterdam (New York City)HET > WAPEN > >> >> VAN > >> >> NOORWEGEN ([THE SHIP] Arms of Norway)Sailed from the Texel about 12 > >> >> May > >> >> 1638, arrived New Amsterdam before 4 August1638 [as per the account > >> >> submitted by Cornelis Melyn against Kili > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Added by: > >> >> > >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> > >> >> Carrigan on January 27, 2008 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Managed by: > >> >> > >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> > >> >> Peter > >> >> Carrigan > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Last Updated: > >> >> > >> >> October 26, 2008 > >> >> > >> >> Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen)'s Family > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Immediate Family: > >> >> > >> >> Daughter of ? Andriesen > >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425191680040209> and ? > >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425205520040215> > Andriesen > >> >> Wife of Jan < > >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705> > >> >> Dircksen > >> >> Mother of Sara > >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/Sara-Gardenier/5039346657760037507> > >> >> Gardenier > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] > >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:57 AM > >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Has anyone come across this before? Could this be anything? Jan > >> >> Dircksen > >> >> > >> >> van Bremen > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > http://www.archive.org/stream/16301897briefhis00rose/16301897briefhis00rose_ > >> >> > >> >> djvu.txt > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Preserved among the Fort Orange Records of date 1660, May > >> >> > >> >> 27, is the "petition of Jan Dircksen van Bremen, Albert James von > >> >> > >> >> Volekenburgh, et al., praying that Dutch as well as Indians brokers > >> >> > >> >> be employed to trade with the Indians," and among the names ap- > >> >> > >> >> pended is " Henderick Roseboom." The other party were for pro- > >> >> > >> >> hibiting all Europeans, " Christians," from treading the forest > paths, > >> >> > >> >> thus excluding civilization. The first date after this is Sept. 13, > >> >> > >> >> 1662, when he purchased a house and lot "in the village of Bever- > >> >> > >> >> wyck, on the hill," and from this time on his name is found in num- > >> >> > >> >> erous authentic documents in the annals of Albany. The property > >> >> > >> >> mentioned was of historical interest, having been patented to Pieter > >> >> > >> >> Bronck. "As it stands with all that is fast by earth and nailed, > >> >> > >> >> and a? great as the patent thereof mentions," it was conveyed by > >> >> > >> >> Reyndert Pieterse (Bronck?) and Jacob Herick (Gerick), "for the > >> >> > >> >> sum of 550 guilders, payable in good merchantable beavers, at eight > >> >> > >> >> guilders apiece, in two installments, in July '63 and '64," the two > >> >> > >> >> "sellers" setting their "marks," but Rooseboom writing hi^ name > >> >> > >> >> with his own hand. November 16, of that year, he is surety with > >> >> > >> >> J. J. Schermerhooren for Jurriaen Janssen in the purchase of a house > >> >> > >> >> from the estate of Andries Herbertsen, for the benefit of the > >> >> > >> >> widow. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> The exact situations of the ancient properties in Albany have > >> >> > >> >> been carefully ascertained and mapped, so that we can fix the pre- > >> >> > >> >> cise spot where this ancestor lived. It lay on the east side of > Norlli > >> >> > >> >> Pearl street, northward of Maiden Lane. The palisades constitu- > >> >> > >> >> ting the northerly fortifications of the settlement passed through > the > >> >> > >> >> middle of the land-plat, and the name of " Roseboom's gate" was > >> >> > >> >> o-iven to the exit which existed at that point, the "Burghers' block- > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Okay if this is our Sara Teunis that arrived on De Trouw in 1664 when did Jan Dircksen come to New York? On my tree I have their marriage date as June 28 1664. Can't remember where this exact date came from but I picked it up from someone's tree or from the marriage record attached to Sara Theunis. June 28 does not correspond well with the birth of their first daughter Dirckje 31 Dec 1664; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt Since they did not travel together she may have been promised to him and came over to join him. Could Sara be a daughter of Pieter Teunisz? Could she have been a young widow? >Pieter Teunisz From Brunswijck, (Germany); is first mentioned under date of March 28, 1648, as having taken farm implements, houses and cattle, formerly used by him and Crijn Cornelisz, with him to Catskill. In 1652 and 1653, Pieter Teunisz and Jan Dircksz, from Bremen, were summoned to appear before the court to settle their accounts Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our Jan Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? Did his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara Teunis and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years DE TROUW (THE FAITH) Passenger list below Sailed after 13 Feb. 1659 [JJ], on 12 Feb 1659 [NWI], arrived New Amsterdam before 5 May 1659 Names of special interest to me******* . Jan Woutersen, from Ravesteyn; shoemaker, and wife and daughter . Catalyntje Cranenburg; maiden . Jan van Coppenol, from Remsen; farmer and wife and 2 children . Matthys Roelofs, from Denmark,and wife and child . Sophia Roeloffs . Geertruy Jochems, from Hamburgh; Wife of Claes Claessen from Amersfoort, now in N. Netherland; and two children . Peter Corneliss, from Holsteyn; Labourer ******** . Peter Jacobs, from Holsteyn . Josyntje Verhagen, from Middelburg, and daughter . Saertge Hendricks, from Delft . Egbert Meynderts, from Amsterdam, and wife and child and servant . Jan Leurens Noorman and wife ******* . Harmen Coerten, from Voorhuysen and wife and 5 children . Magalantje Teunis, from Voorhuysen ******* . Feytje Dircks ******** . Gillis Jansen van Garder and Wife and four children ******** . Bastiaen Clement, from Doornick . Adriaen Fournoi, from Valenciennes . Jannetje Eyckers, from East Friesland . Joris Jorissen Townsen, from Redfort; mason . Nicholas Gillissen Marschal . Wouter gerritsen van Kootuyck . Jan Jacobsen, from Utrecht; farmer, and wife, mother and two children . Arent Francken van Iperen . Dennys Isacksen, from Wyck by Daurstede . Weyntje Martens van Gorehem . Vroutje Gerrits, wife of Cosyn Gerritsen; Wheelwright . Jan Dircksen, from Alckmaer and Wife and three children ********* . Nettert Jansen, from Embden . Epke Jacobs, from Harlingen; farmer and wife and five sons . Stoffiel Gerritsen from Laer [ENN: On May 2, 1660 Adriaen van laer, his brother, settles his account] . Jan Meynderts, from Iperen; farmer and wife . Jan Barents Ameshof, from Amsterdam . Symon Drune from Henegouw . Hendrick Harmensen, from Amsterdam . Evert Cornellissen from the vicinity of Amersfoort ********* . Laurens Jacobs van der Wielen . Jannetje Theunis van Ysseltstein ********** . Jan Roelofsen, van Naerden; farmer . Jacob Hendricks, from the Highland, and maidservant . Goossen van Twiller, from New-Kerk . Lawrens Janssen, from Wormer ********* . Jan Harmens from Amersfoort; Taylor, and wife and four children . Evert Marschal; glasier, from Amsterdam and wife and daughter . Boele Roelofsen, Joncker, and wife and four children, besides his Wife's sister and a boy Name: Sara Teunis Marriage Date: 1664 Marriage Place: New York City, New York Passengers aboard the De Trouw in 1664 . Maarcelis Jansen van Bommel; farmer . Evert Tack, from the Barony of Breda . Lysbet Arens, from Amsterdam, and child [re NWI- child 8 years old] . Johannis Hardenbroeck, from Elberveld, and Wife and four children [re NWI children were 8,6,5 and 3] . Janneken Juriaensen, from Gorcum . Corneliss Cornelissen Vernoey, and Wife and sucking child . Lysbet de Roode, from Dantzick, Wife of John Saline, and child [re NWI child was 3 years old] . Sara Teunis We can add the following names as found in Abstracts from Notarial Documents in the Amsterdam Archives by Pim Nieuwenhuis published in New Netherland Connections in series Vol. 4:3,4; Vol. 5:1-3 . Daniel de Hondecoutre, bachelor, engaged by Pieter van den Beilcken merchant in Leyden for 4 years to trade on his behalf in New Netherland [NNC] . Norbardus Bodas, soldier from Antwerp, in service of WIC [NNC] Did Sara Teunis travel with Lysbet de Roode wife of John Saline? They did not refer to Sara Teunis as maiden. -----Original Message----- From: Linda Schwenn [mailto:schwel@comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:35 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an officer in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, Prince of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or fact? *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA*

"If conceived on arrival..." Old Jan Dircks must have been an awfully smooth talker or Sara was a roundheel. Met, courted and impregnated within, let's say, a month of her arrival. I'd accept an 8-month baby but unless Sara hopped off the boat and straight into bed with a guy she'd just met you have to posit something closer to a 7-month one. (Incidentally, I'm not working just off Dirkje's baptism--which I've arbitrarily set as two weeks after her birth. Note Jan and Sara were married in at the end of June. However the banns had to be posted for a month previous to that. Assume Sarah waited for three missed periods to "be sure". From either recorded event we end up with a conception in mid- or late-March.) "Or she could have been raped." So Jan met her and shortly married her even though she was carrying another man's child. That would make him more saintly than the general run of the males, never mind the subset of soldiers, a group not noted for their enlightened social views. The simplest explanation is Jan Dircks was on DeTrouw with Sara and somehow they managed a fast fornication in the forecastle or something. If you prefer a more palatable alternative I'm also willing to posit three months of desperately unconsummated love at sea followed instanter upon landing by a gallop across the percales. That would eliminate the privacy-aboard-ship problem and only require Dirkje to be born a little premature, a not uncomon feature in the first pregnancy of a young white woman, at least by modern statistics. Either way, though, Jan Dircks had to be aboard DeTrouw with Sara. All other explanations "multiply entities unnecessarily", not to mention implausibly. --------- I just did a quick scan to see if anything new had turned up on the subject of soldiers. I find reference to a letter from the WIC directors to Stuyvesant indicating they sent him at least 40 of them in early 1664. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen NewAmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 >I disagree with Pete, in that I find it more likely she concieved on > arrival. If conceived upon arrival, Dirkjz would have been premature about > 3, maybe 4 weeks. Personally, I think this is more likely than onboard > (he > points out the difficulites of enroute). Regardless, even if she > conceived > on arrival, I agree it's probable she met the father onboard. Or she could > have been raped. > > There is known to have been one soldier onboard De Trouw (1664), and where > there's one, there's more. (Norbardus Bodas, soldier from Antwerp.) > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> More reliable due to Lorrine's high standards: >> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_intro.shtml >> >> Here's DeTrouw 1664: >> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/nnship34.shtml >> >> DeTrouw made the trip with some regularity. The last one before the >> Dutch >> surrender of New Amsterdam left Netherlands Jan. 19, 1664, arriving Apr. >> 17. 1664. >> >> That 1659 voyage with 108 passengers listed, however, provides some sort >> of >> measure of the actual capacity of De Trouw. There could have been many >> more aboard on the 1664 voyage than the 13 adults and 7 children known >> from >> the ship's books and notarial records. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New >> AmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 >> >> >> > Pete are we talking about the same sailing of the De Trouw? This >> > reference >> > says it arrived in 1659 and Dirckje was baptized in 1664. >> > >> > Susan >> > >> > Amsterdam, Netherlands to New Netherland (New York) sailed 12 February >> > 1659 >> > arrived May 1659 >> > Captain: Jan Jansen Bestevaer >> > De Trouw (In The Faith) sailed from Amsterdam February 12, 1659 under >> > Captain Jan Jansen Bestevaer arriving at New Amsterdam May, 1659. >> > http://www.immigrantships.net/v10/1600v10/detrouw16590500.html >> > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1664 >> > 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1669 >> > Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >> Wouters >> > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1671 >> > 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, >> > Mayken >> > Laurens >> > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1673 >> > 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna >> > Le >> > Maistre >> > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1675 >> > 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden ??? >> > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1677 >> > 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> > Tryntie >> > Hercks >> > >> > BAPTISMS OF 1680 >> > 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel >> > Terneur, >> > Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:25 PM >> > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam >> > Baptismsfrom1639-1730 >> > >> > Please look for my post a few months ago about Pym Van Arnhem's >> > Netherland-based web page. >> > >> > Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) isn't any of the many other Jan Dircks's during >> > the >> > period in New Amsterdam. In the first place most of them have their >> > own >> > documented histories, anyway. More important, though, look at the date >> of >> > baptism of Jan Dircks' first child, daughter Dirkje. Then look at the >> > date >> > >> > De Trouw reached port. Unless you resort to unneccessarily complicated >> > explanations, Sara Theunis was at least a month pregnant when when she >> > disembarked the ship which had been at sea for three months. Again, >> > unless >> > you resort to complicated ( indeed, wholly unlikely) explanations, Jan >> > Dircks is the guy who made her that way so he was on the ship, too. >> > >> > De Trouw and Gekruyste Hart both left Amsterdam within a day of each >> other >> > at the wrong time of the year for the voyage. However, it was the >> > right >> > time of year for WIC to send about 200 soldiers to New Amsterdam to >> > protect >> > against an anticipated attack by the British. >> > >> > There's no record I can find that soldiers were aboard the two ships >> > but >> > the >> > >> > ships had to have been carrying something. There are indications the >> New >> > Amsterdam garrison was considerably larger after the ships had arrived. >> > >> > Stuyvesant in Jan 1664 had sent a letter to the company requesting 400 >> > reinforcements but he was at the end of the news chain and the WIC >> > directors were at the front end. They could read the tea leaves as >> > well >> > as >> > he could and long before he even got a squint at them in any case. >> > >> > Don't ask me how Jan Dircks and Sara managed to do it on a little ship >> > packed with a company of soldiers in the middle of the Atlantic in >> Winter. >> > "Love laughs at locks," and a lot of other impediments if I recall the >> > days >> > of my youth correctly. (There's a remote chance the ships might have >> > dropped reinforcements at Guyana or the Antilles before swinging north >> > to >> > New Amsterdam; I haven't been able to figure out an average length of >> time >> > for a winter crossing because it's not clear if there ever were any >> > others.) >> > >> > There should be WIC and notarial records on all this. However they're >> > going >> > >> > to be in Dutch and they're going to be in the Netherlands. Assuming >> > they >> > survived 350 years of fires, floods, bugs, rats and God knows what else >> in >> > the first place. >> > >> > I'd really love to know who in New Amsterdam paid Sara's passage on >> > DeTrouw >> > (the only reason we know about it at all is that it wasn't paid at the >> > Amsterdam end) but I've never been able to find that. >> > >> > --pete >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:36 PM >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam Baptisms >> > from1639-1730 >> > >> > >> >> This is interesting. Note the name Tryntie again below. Jan Dircksen >> >> van >> >> Bremen's wife was Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen). Does anyone >> >> think >> >> we may be looking at the same person in Jan Dircksen van Bremen and >> >> our >> >> Jan >> >> Dirckszen who was married to Sara Theunis? Was she his second wife? >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> I don't think I have ever visited this page before of early baptismal >> >> records. Maybe I have? The all start to blend together. Lots of Jan >> >> Dirckszen hits at the below link. >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> http://longislandgenealogy.com/baptisms/baps.html >> >> >> >> New Amsterdam Baptisms from 1639-1730 >> >> These are complete to the end of 1730 as per Vol II of the >> >> Collections of the New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, >> 1901'. >> >> Originally appearing on the site of Robert L. Billard >> >> You can visit his site at >> >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~rbillard/index.htm >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:18 PM >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Immigrants to New Netherlands 1623-64 >> >> >> >> >> > >> http://www.family-crests.com/family-crest-coat-of-arms/surnames-7-7/immigran >> >> ts-to-new-netherlands-1623.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Scandinavian Immigrants in New York >> >> 1630-1674 >> >> >> >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/evjen/407evj.html >> >> >> >> Interesting description of Jan Dircksen from Bremen at above link >> >> midway >> >> down the page. His wife's name was Tryntie Anders. Just below Jan >> >> Dircksen >> >> is a Lucas Dircksen from Berg German married to Annetje Cornelis. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jan Van Bremen Dircksen's Details >> >> >> >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birthdate: >> >> >> >> 1620 >> >> >> >> >> >> Birthplace: >> >> >> >> Bremen, Germany >> >> >> >> >> >> Death: >> >> >> >> Died September 15, 1668 in Albany, New York >> >> >> >> >> >> Occupation: >> >> >> >> IMMIGRATION: 1638 From Texel to New Amsterdam (New York City)HET WAPEN >> >> VAN >> >> NOORWEGEN ([THE SHIP] Arms of Norway)Sailed from the Texel about 12 >> >> May >> >> 1638, arrived New Amsterdam before 4 August1638 [as per the account >> >> submitted by Cornelis Melyn against Kili >> >> >> >> >> >> Added by: >> >> >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> >> >> Carrigan on January 27, 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> Managed by: >> >> >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> >> >> Peter >> >> Carrigan >> >> >> >> >> >> Last Updated: >> >> >> >> October 26, 2008 >> >> >> >> Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen)'s Family >> >> >> >> >> >> Immediate Family: >> >> >> >> Daughter of ? Andriesen >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425191680040209> and ? >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425205520040215> Andriesen >> >> Wife of Jan < >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705> >> >> Dircksen >> >> Mother of Sara >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/Sara-Gardenier/5039346657760037507> >> >> Gardenier >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:57 AM >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Has anyone come across this before? Could this be anything? Jan >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> >> van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> http://www.archive.org/stream/16301897briefhis00rose/16301897briefhis00rose_ >> >> >> >> djvu.txt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Preserved among the Fort Orange Records of date 1660, May >> >> >> >> 27, is the "petition of Jan Dircksen van Bremen, Albert James von >> >> >> >> Volekenburgh, et al., praying that Dutch as well as Indians brokers >> >> >> >> be employed to trade with the Indians," and among the names ap- >> >> >> >> pended is " Henderick Roseboom." The other party were for pro- >> >> >> >> hibiting all Europeans, " Christians," from treading the forest paths, >> >> >> >> thus excluding civilization. The first date after this is Sept. 13, >> >> >> >> 1662, when he purchased a house and lot "in the village of Bever- >> >> >> >> wyck, on the hill," and from this time on his name is found in num- >> >> >> >> erous authentic documents in the annals of Albany. The property >> >> >> >> mentioned was of historical interest, having been patented to Pieter >> >> >> >> Bronck. "As it stands with all that is fast by earth and nailed, >> >> >> >> and a? great as the patent thereof mentions," it was conveyed by >> >> >> >> Reyndert Pieterse (Bronck?) and Jacob Herick (Gerick), "for the >> >> >> >> sum of 550 guilders, payable in good merchantable beavers, at eight >> >> >> >> guilders apiece, in two installments, in July '63 and '64," the two >> >> >> >> "sellers" setting their "marks," but Rooseboom writing hi^ name >> >> >> >> with his own hand. November 16, of that year, he is surety with >> >> >> >> J. J. Schermerhooren for Jurriaen Janssen in the purchase of a house >> >> >> >> from the estate of Andries Herbertsen, for the benefit of the >> >> >> >> widow. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The exact situations of the ancient properties in Albany have >> >> >> >> been carefully ascertained and mapped, so that we can fix the pre- >> >> >> >> cise spot where this ancestor lived. It lay on the east side of Norlli >> >> >> >> Pearl street, northward of Maiden Lane. The palisades constitu- >> >> >> >> ting the northerly fortifications of the settlement passed through the >> >> >> >> middle of the land-plat, and the name of " Roseboom's gate" was >> >> >> >> o-iven to the exit which existed at that point, the "Burghers' block- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >