Hi Pim, Jan Dirckzen does actually use his surname on his wedding record in 1664: 1664 28 Jun; Jan Dirckszen, van Aernhem, Soldaet; Sara Theuniszen, jd van Rotterdam Could you please tell me more about his arrival in New Amsterdam? I have seen it mention that he arrived in New Amsterdam in January of 1664 as a soldier but I can't remember the name of the ship. Do you have the information about his sailing? I personally don't think our Sara Theunis is a Van Salee for the reasons that Pete has referenced previously. I found a note of his today and read it again and it refutes it very clearly. What are your thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sara's first child less than six months from their date of marriage? Is the Van Arnhem family a noble family in The Netherlands? What makes it so? Another reference from the Fonda family tree about Jan Dirckzen surname is below. Thank you! Regards, Susan Hester Janse FONDA, born 1672.2 She married Jan Janse VANARNAM 14 Oct 1696.12 Jan Janse VANARNAM was born 4 Jun 1671,13 died 1 Apr 1708.14 b. Albany, NY; d. Albany, Albany Co., NY; had 6 children from 1697-1708: Sara, Abraham, Rebecca, Isaac, Rachael and Jan Dirck; [R044] Innes Getty Collection: Jellis Douwse Fonda; [R034] The Compendium of American Genealogy >> www.fonda.org << Notes for Jan Janse VANARNAM: b. NY; s/o Jan Dirckzen VanAernam (b1640 in Holland) and Sarah Theunis; d. Rensselaerwyck (now Troy), NY; son Isaac VanAernam (bp. 4-May-1704) Revolutionary Soldier was signer of original "Oath of Secrecy" (1/27/1777), Albany Committee of Correspondence, 115 county-wide signers, promise to keep Committee business secret; [R002] Pearson's First Settlers of the Ancient County of Albany; [R093] William Randall (1609-1693) of Scituate and his Descendants with Ancestral Families; [R034] The Compendium of American Genealogy >> www.fonda.org << Notes for Hester Janse FONDA and Jan Janse VANARNAM: m. First Dutch Reformed Church, Albany, NY or Rennselaerwyck, NY; [R087c] Genealogical and Family History of Northern New York -----Original Message----- From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:56 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) Hi Pete, There was a lot of name-changing, mis-writing and experimenting with both patronyms and surnames in those day's in the Netherlands too. So that's no proof that Jan Dircks didn't have Van Arnhem as surname in the Netherlands. I've seen that several times in records here, making research sometimes troublesome. Maybe Jan Dirks didn't (or even didn't want to) use his surname Van Arnhem during his trip to the States, but started using it again on a later date. A reason that his name wasn't used can be that he was indeed a bastard descendant of the noble family van Arnhem. His father then would have been dat Dirk Jansz officer or soldier under General Graaf van Nassau, this is Frederick Hendrick van Nassau, who followed up Prince Maurits. What I have as proof is that this Maurits had a Jan van Aernhem as korporaal (officer) in service, who's father Gerhard van Arnhem was stalmeester (stable master) of Maurits. So the line can be Gerhard van Arnhem had a son Jan, who had a son Dirk Jansz, who had a son Jan Dirksz, the one who emigrated to Amerika. All Van Arnhems here have Van Arnhem as surname, not as city where the come from. If this is the case, there was no reason to use his surname, a patronym could be sufficient. I do not have any info about the Jan Dirksz from Bremen. In several records I see that harbors are mentioned - not to be confused with surnames - so it looks like another Jan Dircksz leaving from Bremen. Both names Jan en Dirk were very common in the Netherlands, leaving us with thousands of possibilities as long as we do not have the surname or other relevant information. Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 23:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:37:59 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP134705BA14EFEDCFC65BCD5AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. And > is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and Dirckszen > before settleing on Van Arnhem. > > Sorry, won't work. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Hi, >> >> "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >> where >> one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch >> parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz >> van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) >> who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter >> Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van >> Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise >> all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There >> was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! >> >> Kind regards, >> Pim van Arnhem >> >> >> Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >>> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >>> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>> where >>> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >>> kids >>> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >>> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >>> pregnancy.) >>> >>> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >>> death. >>> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks >>> and >>> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >>> appears >>> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other >>> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >>> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >>> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >>> >>> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good >>> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >>> pretty >>> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >>> >>> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents >>> a >>> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >>> was, >>> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >>> fact, >>> independent of each other. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> John, >>>> >>>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>>> not >>>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>>> >>>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>>> 31, >>>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>>> LOL. >>>> Thanks again! >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>>> Barentje >>>> Jans >>>> - page 76 >>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>>> Willemszen, >>>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>>> Ariaentie >>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>>> Agniet >>>> Lodovyckszen >>>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >>>> - page 78 >>>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>>> Marie Dopzen >>>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>>> Verleth, >>>> El >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >>>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>>> intact. >>>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>>> paying >>>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >>>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >>>> in >>>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>>> not >>>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>>> but >>>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>>> >>>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >>>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>>> were >>>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>>> that >>>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>>> married >>>> to >>>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>>> apprentishship >>>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >>>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>>> with >>>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>>> she >>>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >>>> J" >>>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>>> >>>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>>> >>>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >>>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>>> other >>>>> staff. >>>>> >>>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait >>>>> to >>>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>>> If >>>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>>> married >>>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>>> Belief: NDG >>>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>>> Previous partner groom: >>>>> Previous partner bride >>>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>>> would >>>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>>> his >>>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>>>> the >>>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>>> flip-flopping >>>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>>>> have >>>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>>> >>>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>>> have >>>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>>> have >>>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>>> during) >>>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>>> speculating over). >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>>>> work >>>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>>> children >>>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>>> obviously >>>>> a >>>>>>> different person. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>>> wise >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>>> our >>>>> Jan >>>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>>> children? >>>>>>> Did >>>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>>>> Teunis >>>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >>> over >>> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >>> promulgated >>> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where >>> to >>> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >>> >>> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >>> of >>> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >>> Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's >>> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >>> >>> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in >>> the >>> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >>> they >>> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and >>> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >>> guarantee >>> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >>> >>> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >>> godparents >>> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >>> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >>> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >>> because >>> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >>> >>> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >>> that >>> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >>> fact, >>> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >>> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >>> after >>> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of >>> his known life. >>> >>> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >>> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so >>> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >>> More >>> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >>> the >>> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >>> >>> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >>> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >>> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>> >>> >>>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>>> have >>>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>>> the >>>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >>>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>>> officer >>>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>>> Prince >>>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>>> fact? >>>> >>>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>> >>>> >>>> *Individual Summary:* >>>> >>>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sex: >>>> >>>> Male >>>> >>>> >>>> Father: >>>> >>>> Jan Derryckssen >>>> >>>> >>>> Mother: >>>> >>>> Gerriken Beecken >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Individual Facts:* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Birth: >>>> >>>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>> >>>> >>>> Reference ID: >>>> >>>> 33 >>>> >>>> >>>> Death: >>>> >>>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>> >>>> >>>> Military Service: >>>> >>>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Shared Facts:* >>>> >>>> *Magdalena Jans* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marriage: >>>> >>>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>> >>>> >>>> Reference ID: >>>> >>>> 1692 >>>> >>>> >>>> Children: >>>> >>>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Notes:* >>>> >>>> >>>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>>> >>>> >>>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>>> >>>> >>>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>> want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>> posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>> their >>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>> and >>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>> the >>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>> >>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>> probably >>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>> (largely >>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>> another >>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>> >>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>> the >>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>> >>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >>> on >>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>> when >>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>> >>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>> passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>> reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>> want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>> an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>> posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>> "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>> "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>> body of the >>> email with no additional text. >>> >>> >>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >>> ***************************************** >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:59:24 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP14345E189A7411707300E51AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. > > Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have been > married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different records > on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into > which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived > somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records > anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any likely > variation named Thomas. > > There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van > Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the > generations of the family. > > There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her name > does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died > young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or mistranscribed. > > And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of which > head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine got > mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake > considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the time. > (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) > > --pete > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > > Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you > about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even > formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are > causing my (current) confusion. > > 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, > jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier > 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr > & wife Helena Jansen > 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan > Ekkeson sr& wife Apalonia > > Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their >> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >> and >> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the >> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >> >> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >> probably >> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >> (largely >> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >> >> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >> the >> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >> >> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on >> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >> when >> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >> >> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 140 > ***************************************** > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Do not rely on it. There are mistakes. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 2:33 AM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Genealogies of the first settlers of Albany > Genealogies of the first settlers of Albany (Van Arnhem) > http://books.google.com/books?id=ydgRAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA175&dq=van+Arnhem&hl=en&e > i=nryyTLW1C4T78AaK8qQe&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwA > DgK#v=onepage&q=van%20Arnhem&f=false > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Genealogies of the first settlers of Albany (Van Arnhem) http://books.google.com/books?id=ydgRAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA175&dq=van+Arnhem&hl=en&e i=nryyTLW1C4T78AaK8qQe&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwA DgK#v=onepage&q=van%20Arnhem&f=false

I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this is our Sara. http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > I agree with several of your conclusions. > > On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record lists > him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to WIC. > (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > > It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst.  He got in trouble for > having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, > behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ.  Neither in > later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership > qualities. > > I agree he was probably young.  Sara, too.  To the extent there's any record > of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > > I agree he was probably poor.  Without getting into foraging and occupation, > being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief.  It was a > high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of > making a living  was that even the military could see it was stupid to > starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. > Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. > > For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and possibly > Sarah) may not have been Dutch.  In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, they > might have been, almost anything.  However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. > Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > -------- > Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. Aside > from the timing,   Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, Sara, > was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long one > and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > > In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks > logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > > Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname.  The somewhat > mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort of > relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother or > some sort of cousin. > > If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research I > can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis.  I have, I regret to say, neither. > > --pete > >

John: Thank you for posting this link about women's rights in New Netherland. I read it and I am absolutely amazed at the system they set up in the 1600's and very proud of my Dutch heritage. This is a must read IMO. Susan http://confrontaal.org/wordpress/?p=3775 -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:26 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van BremenNewAmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 Interesting blog on womens' rights in New Netherlands: http://confrontaal.org/wordpress/?p=3775

Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%22+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > I agree with several of your conclusions. > > On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record lists > him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to WIC. > (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > > It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst.  He got in trouble for > having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, > behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ.  Neither in > later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership > qualities. > > I agree he was probably young.  Sara, too.  To the extent there's any record > of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > > I agree he was probably poor.  Without getting into foraging and occupation, > being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief.  It was a > high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of > making a living  was that even the military could see it was stupid to > starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. > Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. > > For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and possibly > Sarah) may not have been Dutch.  In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, they > might have been, almost anything.  However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. > Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > -------- > Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. Aside > from the timing,   Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, Sara, > was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long one > and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > > In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks > logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > > Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname.  The somewhat > mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort of > relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother or > some sort of cousin. > > If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research I > can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis.  I have, I regret to say, neither. > > --pete > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:19 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > > >> I've been doing genealogy for about 6 months or so. My tree is somewhat >> skimpy, but I so much prefer spending time researching than tediously >> copying names from a book. My VO line if from NY to MI. Rogers then went >> to >> WI. Most of my people are in PA, or spread all over. >> >> Where I got the information that he was a soldier for the Dutch West India >> CO, I don't know. That may have been just an assumption in some book or >> other (New Amsterdam being run by the Dutch West India Co.). Why he >> came -- >> that's the real question, and one ever so rarely answered. Names and dates >> and facts, and none of it means a dang thing without the why. >> >> Your guess is a good as mine. He was probably young, since he was >> unmarried. >> Probably came from a poor (or somewhat poor) family. Being a soldier was a >> low-class profession, except officers. Presumably he wasn't an officer, or >> we'd have some record of it. With the recent end of the Eighty Years' War, >> have to wonder... Did his father fight? Did he simply follow his father's >> profession, and was shipped to New Amsterdam, or did he choose to come? Or >> maybe he wanted adventure, and soldiering in New Amsterdam was adventure >> on >> adventure. Or it could have been simple necissity - anything to pay the >> bills, as it were. Sadly, unless he left some long-lost memoirs, we'll >> never >> know. I would think that the Eighty Years Wars had a polarizing effect on >> society. After the war, Dutch trading skyrocketed, and they dominated >> trade >> for awhile. But trading benefits the middle and upper classes; bankers, >> merchants, ship owners. The lower class probably didn't fair so well, >> having >> taken the brunt of the fighting, as in any war. >> >> I found this; might be our Sara Theunis: >> >> ship DE TROUW (FAITH) >> January 1664 >> Maarcelis Jansen van Bommel; farmer >> Evert Tack, from the Barony of Breda >> Lysbet Arens, from Amsterdam, and child [re NWI- child 8 years old] >> Johannis Hardenbroeck, from Elberveld, and Wife and four children [re NWI >> children were 8,6,5 and 3] >> Janneken Juriaensen, from Gorcum >> Corneliss Cornelissen Vernoey, and Wife and sucking child >> Lysbet de Roode, from Dantzick, Wife of John Saline, and child [re NWI >> child >> was 3 years old] >> Sara Teunis >> >> Unfortunatly it gives no place of origin for Sara Teunis. However, the >> timing is right, as she marries Jan Dirksz in June (she's not the 3yo >> child >> listed above her). I haven't been able to find any other Sara Theunis' in >> a >> passenger list. It may be possible map out events for the other Sara >> Theunis' living in New Amsterdam, and possibly match it to our Sara >> Theunis >> by process of elimination. >> >> I was able to find only one Jan Dirksz, and it was clearly not a match. I >> believe that the only realistic ways to trace Jan Dirksz in the >> Netherlands >> would be to either find him in a passenger list (with hopefully more >> information), or to find military records. I working a few other leads on >> Sara, but so far nothing. >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> Mind boggling to me but very interesting.  Why do you think Jan Dirksz >>> came >>> to New Amsterdam?  Did he come as a paid soldier? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>  Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:48 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> As a side note to my previous message, countries were also defined to >>> some >>> extent as land owned by the king or royal family, or who owed them >>> fielty. >>> However, the ruling family could inherit lands outside their contigious >>> bounderies, similiar to King George II inheriting the whole of England. >>> This >>> was also true of the Netherlands. The Hapsbergs had several large >>> holdings >>> outside their contiguous bounderies. Unifying disperate holdings by >>> various monarchies played heavily in the Eighty Years' War. >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:33 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> > John Rogers (Rogers -> Harriet Estelle VO -> Sardine Stone -> >>> > Abraham -> >>> > Abraham -> Lucas -> Isaac Jansz etc.) I'm in the US. >>> > >>> > I don't believe they are Scandinavian (that is Holland, Finland, >>> > Norway). >>> > They are almost certainly "from" the Netherlands, and there's no reason >>> > I >>> > know of that to believe they were born elsewhere. >>> > >>> > Since it's on topic of modern last names, don't forget that our >>> > understanding of countries is also a modern construct. Belguim and the >>> > Netherlands have not only seen upheaval in modern times, with map lines >>> > redrawn after World War I and World War II, but the Netherlands was >>> > not unified until 1540 under the Hapsburgs. However, being a small >>> country, >>> > there were constant struggles against Belgium, Prussia, and even Spain. >>> > During the Eighty Year' War (1568-1648), they were split in two. Since >>> this >>> > is in the time-frame of Jan Dirksz, in terms of political bounderies, >>> > it >>> > would be necessary to specify north or south Netherlands. Going >>> > backwards >>> in >>> > time, they were comprised of several "countries", and before that a >>> > multitude city-states, confederacies, and fiefdoms in the middle ages. >>> >   On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Susan Claggett < >>> > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> > >>> >> >>> >> jroguetech@gmail.com what is your name?  You have been sharing lots of >>> >> great >>> >> info with us but I don't know who you are by name.  Are you in the US >>> >> or >>> >> in >>> >> Holland?  Thanks for your contributions! >>> >> >>> >> Susan >>> >> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:00 AM >>> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> >>  Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >> >>> >> Last names weren't formally adopted (in New Amsterdam) until 1687, and >>> >> weren't in common use for much longer, even into the 1800's. >>> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/pat.shtml >>> >> >>> >> Most records show Jan Dirksz as Jan Dirckszen >>> >> http://www.altlaw.com/edball/dutchbap.htm >>> >> (baptism date, father, mother, child, witness, witness) >>> >> Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >>> Wouters >>> >> 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, >>> >> Mayken >>> >> Laurens >>> >> 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna >>> >> Le >>> >> Maistre >>> >> 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >>> >> Tryntie >>> >> Hercks >>> >> 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel >>> >> Terneur, >>> >> Hester de La >>> >> Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>> >> 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> >> (?) 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden (I >>> >> have >>> >> Marie listed as a child, but unsourced beyond this record.) >>> >> [This particuliar site is not easily sourced, since it's one long >>> >> list; >>> >> there's a several sites with New Amsterdam baptisms and marriages. If >>> >> anyone >>> >> needs this info with years, I can provide urls.] >>> >> >>> >> Among others, also listed are Jan Dirckszen Straetman or >>> >> Straetmaecker (Street maker), Jan Dirckszen de Meyer/Mayer, Jan >>> >> Dircxen >>> op >>> >> Hoboken, Jan Dirckszen van Bremen,  and Jan Dirckszen van Amsterdam. >>> There >>> >> are also at least two, possibly three Sara Theunis'. >>> >> >>> >> Here's his marriage record, as being "van Arnhem". In addition to what >>> >> Pete >>> >> says, since he was a soldier, it's that much less reliable as a birth >>> >> place. >>> >> (I have a soldier of the Dutch West India Co., but I have no source.) >>> Sara >>> >> Theunis is listed as from Rotterdam. Possibly more reliable, but >>> Rotterdam >>> >> being a port city, it may have been more convient using her >>> >> (possible) departure place than her actual home. Lot's of times, I've >>> >> seem numerous immigrant ancester of mine using "New York" or "New >>> Jersey" >>> >> in >>> >> census records, rather than actual original country of origin. Note >>> >> that >>> >> the >>> >> patronym system also applies to Sara - "Sara Theuniszen", or "daughter >>> of >>> >> Theunis". >>> >> >>> >> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>> >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>> >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>> >> Gezindte: NDG >>> >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>> >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>> >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>> >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>> >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>> >> Jongedochter bruid: J >>> >> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>> >> Vorige partner bruid: >>> >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>> >> >>> >> Translation: >>> >> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> >> Belief: NDG >>> >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> >> Groom: January Dircksz >>> >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> >> Young Daughter bride: J >>> >> Previous partner groom: >>> >> Previous partner bride >>> >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> >> [ >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRKQ2HdQx1CjKpnEFMD >>> >> >>> hX&xtr=21967397< >>> http://bhic.nl/site/pagina.php?id=193&actie=akte&cid=cTExgRK >>>  Q2HdQx1CjKpnEFMDhX&xtr=21967397> >>> >> ] >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > May I point out again that "Van Arnhem", at least as it applies to >>> >> > the >>> >> > records of Jan Dircks Van Arnhem who married Sarah Theunis, is >>> >> > clearly >>> a >>> >> > descriptor, not a surname.  It means he was "from" Arnhem; perhaps >>> born >>> >> > there, perhaps raised there, perhaps lived there for a while before >>> >> > he >>> >> came >>> >> > to New Amsterdam. >>> >> > >>> >> > Half a dozen bits collectively suggest to me he probably wasn't born >>> in >>> >> > Arnhem.  Among them was a scan several years ago through the >>> Netherlands >>> >> > indices suggested by jroguetech in which I could find no one who >>> looked >>> >> > very >>> >> > much like our Jan Dircks.  (Didn't find a Sarah Theunis, either.) >>> >> > >>> >> > Jan Dirck's children didn't begin using the Van Arnhem surname until >>> >> around >>> >> > 1695, 14 years after the last record that mentions their father (who >>> was >>> >> > still using the presumed patronymic "Dircksen"). In other words, for >>> >> more >>> >> > than 30 years after 1664 the family was NOT named Van Arnhem. >>> >> > >>> >> > (Please don't ask why they eventually adopted a surname their father >>> >> never >>> >> > seems to have used.  It's another of many things about the early >>> family >>> >> > that >>> >> > don't seem to make any sense.) >>> >> > >>> >> > --pete >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> >> > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:50 PM >>> >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > I'm having trouble figuring out how to use this website.  Could >>> >> > > you >>> >> post >>> >> > > the >>> >> > > results for the Van Arnhem's to this list?  Thanks >>> >> > > >>> >> > > Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >> > > -----Original Message----- >>> >> > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 11:43 PM >>> >> > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> >> > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >> > > >>> >> > > Here's a resource that shows some Van Arnhem's in Holland, going >>> back >>> >> as >>> >> > > far >>> >> > > as the 1600's. >>> >> > > >>> >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=10004 >>> >> > > >>> >> > > This has resources for New Amsterdam, New Holland: >>> >> > > http://bhic.nl/index.php?id=193 >>> >> > > (enter "Nieuw Amsterdam-New York" as Plaats) >>> >> > > >>> >> > > Does anyone have other resources for tracing the Van Arnhem's in >>> >> Holland? >>> >> > > >>> >> > > ------------------------------- >>> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> >> the >>> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > ------------------------------- >>> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> >> the >>> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > ------------------------------- >>> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the >>> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------- >>> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ------------------------------- >>> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Interesting blog on womens' rights in New Netherlands: http://confrontaal.org/wordpress/?p=3775 On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:26 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > "If conceived on arrival..." I posited that they met aboard, and didn't > consumate until arrival. However, I would think that the first thing an > unmarried woman with no family would do on arrival would be to find a > husband. The alternative would be to be a cleaning servant, which amounted > to the worst parts of marriage, and I would think would very often include > other "services". Or being a cleaning "servant", i.e. euphemism for > outright prostitute. > > "Or she could have been raped." This is pure speculation, but... I imagine > this happened more than we'd like to think. A woman in a distant land filled > with men, possibly no family and few, if any, friends. Where would an > unemployed arrival do? Where would they go? They would probably wander > around, wondering where they were going to go and what they were going to > do. Stranger in a strange land, yada yada, wandering strange streets, in a > city with a high male-to-female ratio...? Even after such a speculative > event, a soldier would probably still be willing to marry her. If anything, > it would explain why she married a soldier. But there's no way to know how > often, let alone any reason to believe it occured with Sara. > > I'm leaning towards the "three months of desperately unconsummated love", > rather than conceived onboard, although I'm less romantic. Stuck on a > cramped, cold ship with unwashed, crude soldiers all around, dried > unpalatable food, and not so much as a tv in sight for 300 years... Not my > idea of a romantic get-away. > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >> "If conceived on arrival..."  Old Jan Dircks must have been an awfully >> smooth talker or Sara was a roundheel.  Met, courted and impregnated >> within, >> let's say, a month of her arrival.  I'd accept an 8-month baby but unless >> Sara hopped off the boat and straight into bed with a guy she'd just met >> you >> have to posit something closer to a 7-month one. >> >> (Incidentally, I'm not working just off Dirkje's baptism--which I've >> arbitrarily set as two weeks after her birth.  Note Jan and Sara were >> married in at the end of June.  However the banns had to be posted for a >> month previous to that.  Assume Sarah waited for three missed periods to >> "be >> sure".   From either recorded event we end up with a conception in mid- or >> late-March.) >> >> "Or she could have been raped."  So Jan met her and shortly married her >> even >> though she was carrying another man's child.  That would make him more >> saintly than the general run of the males, never mind the subset of >> soldiers, a group not noted for their enlightened social views. >> >> The simplest explanation is Jan Dircks was on DeTrouw with Sara and >> somehow >> they managed a fast fornication in the forecastle or something. >> >> If you prefer a more palatable alternative I'm also willing to posit three >> months of desperately unconsummated love at sea followed instanter upon >> landing by a gallop across the percales.  That would eliminate the >> privacy-aboard-ship problem and only require Dirkje to be born a little >> premature, a not uncomon feature in the first pregnancy of a young white >> woman, at least by modern statistics. >> >> Either way, though, Jan Dircks had to be aboard DeTrouw with Sara.  All >> other explanations "multiply entities unnecessarily", not to mention >> implausibly. >> >> --------- >> I just did a quick scan to see if anything new had turned up on the >> subject >> of soldiers.  I find reference to a letter from the WIC directors to >> Stuyvesant indicating they sent him at least 40 of them in early 1664. >> >> --pete >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 6:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen >> NewAmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 >> >> >> >I disagree with Pete, in that I find it more likely she concieved on >> > arrival. If conceived upon arrival, Dirkjz would have been premature >> > about >> > 3, maybe 4 weeks. Personally, I think this is more likely than onboard >> > (he >> > points out the difficulites of enroute).  Regardless, even if she >> > conceived >> > on arrival, I agree it's probable she met the father onboard. Or she >> > could >> > have been raped. >> > >> > There is known to have been one soldier onboard De Trouw (1664), and >> > where >> > there's one, there's more. (Norbardus Bodas, soldier from Antwerp.) >> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> More reliable due to Lorrine's high standards: >> >> >> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/mm_intro.shtml >> >> >> >> Here's DeTrouw 1664: >> >> >> >> http://www.olivetreegenealogy.com/ships/nnship34.shtml >> >> >> >> DeTrouw made the trip with some regularity.  The last one before the >> >> Dutch >> >> surrender of New Amsterdam left Netherlands Jan. 19, 1664, arriving >> >>  Apr. >> >> 17. 1664. >> >> >> >> That 1659 voyage with 108 passengers listed, however, provides some >> >> sort >> >> of >> >> measure of the actual capacity of De Trouw.    There could have been >> >> many >> >> more aboard on the 1664 voyage than the 13 adults and 7 children known >> >> from >> >> the ship's books and notarial records. >> >> >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> >>   Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:11 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New >> >> AmsterdamBaptismsfrom1639-1730 >> >> >> >> >> >> > Pete are we talking about the same sailing of the De Trouw?  This >> >> > reference >> >> > says it arrived in 1659 and Dirckje was baptized in 1664. >> >> > >> >> > Susan >> >> > >> >> > Amsterdam, Netherlands to New Netherland (New York) sailed 12 >> >> > February >> >> > 1659 >> >> > arrived May 1659 >> >> > Captain: Jan Jansen Bestevaer >> >> > De Trouw (In The Faith) sailed from Amsterdam February 12, 1659 under >> >> > Captain Jan Jansen Bestevaer arriving at New Amsterdam May, 1659. >> >> > http://www.immigrantships.net/v10/1600v10/detrouw16590500.html >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1664 >> >> > 31 Dec; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1669 >> >> > Aug; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >> >> Wouters >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1671 >> >> > 4 Jun; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, >> >> > Mayken >> >> > Laurens >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1673 >> >> > 9 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna >> >> > Le >> >> > Maistre >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1675 >> >> > 14 Jul; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden ??? >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1677 >> >> > 26 Sept; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> >> > Tryntie >> >> > Hercks >> >> > >> >> > BAPTISMS OF 1680 >> >> > 3 Apr; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac and Jacob (twins); Daniel >> >> > Terneur, >> >> > Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 3:25 PM >> >> > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam >> >> > Baptismsfrom1639-1730 >> >> > >> >> > Please look for my post a few months ago about Pym Van Arnhem's >> >> > Netherland-based web page. >> >> > >> >> > Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) isn't any of the many other Jan Dircks's >> >> > during >> >> > the >> >> > period in New Amsterdam.  In the first place most of them have their >> >> > own >> >> > documented histories, anyway.  More important, though, look at the >> >> > date >> >> of >> >> > baptism of Jan Dircks' first child, daughter Dirkje.   Then look at >> >> > the >> >> > date >> >> > >> >> > De Trouw reached port.  Unless you resort to unneccessarily >> >> > complicated >> >> > explanations, Sara Theunis was at least a month pregnant when when >> >> > she >> >> > disembarked the ship which had been at sea for three months.  Again, >> >> > unless >> >> > you resort to complicated ( indeed, wholly unlikely) explanations, >> >> > Jan >> >> > Dircks is the guy who made her that way so he was on the ship, too. >> >> > >> >> > De Trouw and Gekruyste Hart both left Amsterdam within a day of each >> >> other >> >> > at the wrong time of the year for the voyage.  However, it was the >> >> > right >> >> > time of year for WIC to send about 200 soldiers to New Amsterdam to >> >> > protect >> >> > against an anticipated attack by the British. >> >> > >> >> > There's no record I can find that soldiers were aboard the two ships >> >> > but >> >> > the >> >> > >> >> > ships had to have been carrying something.   There are indications >> >> > the >> >> New >> >> > Amsterdam garrison was considerably larger after the ships had >> >> > arrived. >> >> > >> >> > Stuyvesant in Jan 1664 had sent a letter to the company requesting >> >> > 400 >> >> > reinforcements but he was at the end of  the news chain and the WIC >> >> > directors were at the front end.  They could read the tea leaves as >> >> > well >> >> > as >> >> > he could and long before he even got a squint at them in any case. >> >> > >> >> > Don't ask me how Jan Dircks and Sara managed to do it on a little >> >> > ship >> >> > packed with a company of soldiers in the middle of the Atlantic in >> >> Winter. >> >> > "Love laughs at locks," and a lot of other impediments if I recall >> >> > the >> >> > days >> >> > of my youth correctly.  (There's a remote chance the ships might have >> >> > dropped reinforcements at Guyana or the Antilles before swinging >> >> > north >> >> > to >> >> > New Amsterdam; I haven't been able to figure out an average length of >> >> time >> >> > for a winter crossing because it's not clear if  there ever were any >> >> > others.) >> >> > >> >> > There should be WIC and notarial records on all this.  However >> >> > they're >> >> > going >> >> > >> >> > to be in Dutch and they're going to be in the Netherlands.  Assuming >> >> > they >> >> > survived 350 years of fires, floods, bugs, rats and God knows what >> >> > else >> >> in >> >> > the first place. >> >> > >> >> > I'd really love to know who in New Amsterdam paid Sara's passage on >> >> > DeTrouw >> >> > (the only reason we know about it at all is that it wasn't paid at >> >> > the >> >> > Amsterdam end) but I've never been able to find that. >> >> > >> >> > --pete >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> >> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:36 PM >> >> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen New Amsterdam >> >> > Baptisms >> >> > from1639-1730 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> This is interesting.  Note the name Tryntie again below.  Jan >> >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> van >> >> >> Bremen's wife was Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen). Does >> >> >> anyone >> >> >> think >> >> >> we may be looking at the same person in Jan Dircksen van Bremen and >> >> >> our >> >> >> Jan >> >> >> Dirckszen who was married to Sara Theunis?  Was she his second wife? >> >> >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie >> >> >> Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't think I have ever visited this page before of early >> >> >> baptismal >> >> >> records.  Maybe I have?  The all start to blend together.  Lots of >> >> >> Jan >> >> >> Dirckszen hits at the below link. >> >> >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> >> >> http://longislandgenealogy.com/baptisms/baps.html >> >> >> >> >> >> New Amsterdam Baptisms from 1639-1730 >> >> >> These are complete to the end of 1730 as per Vol II of the >> >> >> Collections of the New York Genealogical and Biographical Society, >> >> 1901'. >> >> >> Originally appearing on the site of Robert L. Billard >> >> >> You can visit his site at >> >> >> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~rbillard/index.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:18 PM >> >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Immigrants to New Netherlands 1623-64 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> http://www.family-crests.com/family-crest-coat-of-arms/surnames-7-7/immigran >> >> >> ts-to-new-netherlands-1623.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Scandinavian Immigrants in New York >> >> >> 1630-1674 >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nycoloni/evjen/407evj.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Interesting description of Jan Dircksen from Bremen at above link >> >> >> midway >> >> >> down the page.  His wife's name was Tryntie Anders.  Just below Jan >> >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> is a Lucas Dircksen from Berg German married to Annetje Cornelis. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jan Van Bremen Dircksen's Details >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birthdate: >> >> >> >> >> >> 1620 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birthplace: >> >> >> >> >> >> Bremen, Germany >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Death: >> >> >> >> >> >> Died September 15, 1668 in Albany, New York >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Occupation: >> >> >> >> >> >> IMMIGRATION: 1638 From Texel to New Amsterdam (New York City)HET >> >> >> WAPEN >> >> >> VAN >> >> >> NOORWEGEN ([THE SHIP] Arms of Norway)Sailed from the Texel about 12 >> >> >> May >> >> >> 1638, arrived New Amsterdam before 4 August1638 [as per the account >> >> >> submitted by Cornelis Melyn against Kili >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Added by: >> >> >> >> >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> >> >> >> Carrigan on January 27, 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Managed by: >> >> >> >> >> >> Brian <http://www.geni.com/people/Brian-Carrigan/311175475190004578> >> >> >> Peter >> >> >> Carrigan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Last Updated: >> >> >> >> >> >> October 26, 2008 >> >> >> >> >> >> Catharine Tryntie Dircksen (Andriesen)'s Family >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Immediate Family: >> >> >> >> >> >> Daughter of ? Andriesen >> >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425191680040209>  and ? >> >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/-Andriesen/5039425205520040215> >> >> >>  Andriesen >> >> >> Wife of Jan < >> >> http://www.geni.com/people/Jan-Dircksen/5039393853980077705> >> >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> Mother of Sara >> >> >> <http://www.geni.com/people/Sara-Gardenier/5039346657760037507> >> >> >> Gardenier >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] >> >> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 4:57 AM >> >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Has anyone come across this before?  Could this be anything?  Jan >> >> >> Dircksen >> >> >> >> >> >> van Bremen >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> http://www.archive.org/stream/16301897briefhis00rose/16301897briefhis00rose_ >> >> >> >> >> >> djvu.txt >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Preserved among the Fort Orange Records of date 1660, May >> >> >> >> >> >> 27, is the "petition of Jan Dircksen van Bremen, Albert James von >> >> >> >> >> >> Volekenburgh, et al., praying that Dutch as well as Indians brokers >> >> >> >> >> >> be employed to trade with the Indians," and among the names ap- >> >> >> >> >> >> pended is " Henderick Roseboom." The other party were for pro- >> >> >> >> >> >> hibiting all Europeans, " Christians," from treading the forest >> >> >> paths, >> >> >> >> >> >> thus excluding civilization. The first date after this is Sept. 13, >> >> >> >> >> >> 1662, when he purchased a house and lot "in the village of Bever- >> >> >> >> >> >> wyck, on the hill," and from this time on his name is found in num- >> >> >> >> >> >> erous authentic documents in the annals of Albany. The property >> >> >> >> >> >> mentioned was of historical interest, having been patented to Pieter >> >> >> >> >> >> Bronck. "As it stands with all that is fast by earth and nailed, >> >> >> >> >> >> and a? great as the patent thereof mentions," it was conveyed by >> >> >> >> >> >> Reyndert Pieterse (Bronck?) and Jacob Herick (Gerick), "for the >> >> >> >> >> >> sum of 550 guilders, payable in good merchantable beavers, at eight >> >> >> >> >> >> guilders apiece, in two installments, in July '63 and '64," the two >> >> >> >> >> >> "sellers" setting their "marks," but Rooseboom writing hi^ name >> >> >> >> >> >> with his own hand. November 16, of that year, he is surety with >> >> >> >> >> >> J. J. Schermerhooren for Jurriaen Janssen in the purchase of a house >> >> >> >> >> >> from the estate of Andries Herbertsen, for the benefit of the >> >> >> >> >> >> widow. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The exact situations of the ancient properties in Albany have >> >> >> >> >> >> been carefully ascertained and mapped, so that we can fix the pre- >> >> >> >> >> >> cise spot where this ancestor lived. It lay on the east side of >> >> >> Norlli >> >> >> >> >> >> Pearl street, northward of Maiden Lane. The palisades constitu- >> >> >> >> >> >> ting the northerly fortifications of the settlement passed through >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >> >> middle of the land-plat, and the name of " Roseboom's gate" was >> >> >> >> >> >> o-iven to the exit which existed at that point, the "Burghers' >> >> >> block- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> >> the >> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> >> the >> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> >> the >> >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> > the >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> > the >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Hi, "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) > 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward kids > every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to > weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another > pregnancy.) > > There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant death. > The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks and > Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she appears > at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other > than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name > Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite > often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. > > "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good > indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been pretty > scrupulous about baptising their offspring. > > My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a > nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and was, > in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, > independent of each other. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> John, >> >> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >> previously married) until you pointed it out. >> >> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >> 31, >> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >> LOL. >> Thanks again! >> >> Susan >> >> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje >> Jans >> - page 76 >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >> Juffr. Ver Brack >> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >> Jacomyntie du Wel >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >> Ariaentie >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet >> Lodovyckszen >> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >> - page 78 >> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >> Marie Dopzen >> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, >> El >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >> intact. >> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying >> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >> in >> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >> not >> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >> manifests by Dutch West Co. >> >> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >> were >> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >> that >> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >> to >> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >> apprentishship >> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with >> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >> she >> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >> J" >> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >> >> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >> >> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>> other >>> staff. >>> >>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >> married >>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> Belief: NDG >>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> Groom: January Dircksz >>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> Young Daughter bride: J >>> Previous partner groom: >>> Previous partner bride >>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>> would >>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>> his >>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>> the >>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>> flip-flopping >>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>> have >>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>> >>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>> >>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> have >>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>> have >>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>> during) >>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>> speculating over). >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>> work >>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>> children >>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> obviously >>> a >>>>> different person. >>>>> >>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>> wise >>>>> the >>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>> >>>>> My previous question: >>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>> Did >>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>> Teunis >>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>> >>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all over > the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated > it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where to > begin. Here are the two big ones. though: > > When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of > people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's > unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. > > I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in the > first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died they > themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and > doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee > the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). > > I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as godparents > other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so > barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan > Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks because > that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. > > I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man that > Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, > "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up > against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after > the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of > his known life. > > The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for > common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so > would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More > to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the > case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. > > Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an > impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the > hypothezied scion of a professional family. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > >> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have >> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >> officer >> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >> Prince >> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >> fact? >> >> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> *Individual Summary:* >> >> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> >> >> >> Sex: >> >> Male >> >> >> Father: >> >> Jan Derryckssen >> >> >> Mother: >> >> Gerriken Beecken >> >> >> >> >> >> *Individual Facts:* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birth: >> >> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 33 >> >> >> Death: >> >> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Military Service: >> >> officer under General Count von Nassau >> >> >> >> >> >> *Shared Facts:* >> >> *Magdalena Jans* >> >> >> >> >> >> Marriage: >> >> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 1692 >> >> >> Children: >> >> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Joris Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> *Notes:* >> >> >> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >> >> >> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >> >> >> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Pete: > > So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's > names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at > online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because these > lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain have > any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons at > the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want > and need to know. > > You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy > reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Do > you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been > studying the VN family? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't > > actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' > account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid > before sailing. > > I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier > on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid > deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an > empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the > passage on the other end was logically something less than that. > > Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted > at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an > objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the > wedding took place at the end of the fourth. > > Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." > Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what > most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in > > Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". > > --pete > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 > ***************************************** > >

Hi, Just like Pete warns us all the time, I like to warn you that if you use internet information from bhic.nl you've got to check with the original texts! More than once I found mistakes in these internet records. By the way, your internet discussion is interesting, but, as I wrote you before, it is possible that Jan Dircks van Arnhem van a soldier with the patronym Dircks and the sir-name 'van Arnhem'. This kind of combination 'patrony-sire name' you'll find hundreds/thousands of times in this period in the Netherlands. Until 1810 when Napoleon obliged sire names which didn't change any more, all kinds of name-switching is found. In small villages people mostly used patronyms (their was no need for sire names), but in city's sir-names were commen (with patronyms too!). So I'm still convinced that Jan Dircks had the sir-name 'van Arnhem' otherwise his sir-name was more likely to become Dirksen. Several months ago we had some discussions on this. Somehow not al my posts came through, so today I'll try it again. Underneath my reaction on the post of 20-7-2010 Volume 5, issue 91: Hi Arlene, Susan and all the others, Thanks Arlene for your balanced responce on "trustworthy information". I am aware that I didn't check the US-data, like I do with the Dutch-branches shared on my site. But for the contacts I have here in the Netherlands it is espacially very interesting that the US-branch made a lot of name changes during the years. And several people I know are very interested in who the Dirk Jansz and his wife Magdaleentje Jansen were, and to which Dutch-branch they belong. So I also hoped that some of you in the US would have additional information. As you can see on my website there are a lot of "Van Arnhem"-branches in the Netherlands which I (and other in this country) couldn't connect up to this moment. I have contact with "living" people of several branches, but not with all (some branches didn't continue up to 2010). And with putting the data on internet I hope to connect with more "Van Arnhems" in our country and worldwide. In several way's this is (as far as I know) the only "Van Arnhem" website working on all known famely-branches (in the Netherlands, for that is my primary interest). The site starts with a royal Van Arnhem tree (see Ferwerda and Herckenrode), and the others are named by the city where the oldest for-father came from (Angerlo, Den Bosch, Didam etc. are branches) I am a descendant of the Maurik-branch. Of course, like you in the States, I hope to find connections and putting braches together. Concerning the US-branch, I have found data about Dirk Jansz and his wife Magdaleentje Jansen in the city Arnhem. But this information is (badly) not digitalized or indexed, and research takes a lot of time. (I don't know how genealogy is organized in archives in the US, but here in the Netherlands a lot of info is indexed by surname and sometimes even digitallized what is much quicker and easier to do the research, but unfortunatly a lot of information is not indexed or digitallized, so you have to work through the original birth-marry-burrying-books page by page hoping to find a person of interest. In response to your idea Arlene, and your question Susan:/ Pim would you be able to or be willing to or find a male ancestor to take a DNA test so we can all prove our relations? Are you aware of the Van Norman DNA program that Stephen Wood is heading up at Family Tree DNA under the project name of Van Norman? Charlie Van Norman and my brother matched perfectly at 32 markers and we are believed to be from the old NY line which is the same tail male line as your family Pim.// This could be our big breakthrough!!!/ Some time ago I read of the DNA program of Stephan Wood, but to be honest, I don't know what genealogy DNA programs there are in the Netherlands. There has been a project some years ago, but I don't know if it's still running. And aren't there different DNA-tests with different marker-sets? I can say that I do not have any knowledge of a descendant of Dirk Jansz other than mentioned on my website. So I don't know if a member of the Dutch famely line of Dirk Jansz is alive. Due to the problem of the archives mentioned above, (and a lack of time) I didn't work out or do research on the Dutch descendants of Dirk Jansz. So for this moment I cannot contact with a "proven" descendant of Dirk Jansz. What I can do is find some information on how DNA-programs are running here and join in myself, but, as said before, I don't think I am in the same famely-line. Do you have any suggestions on this? Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 12:06, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Dirk Jansz (jroguetech@gmail.com) > 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (jroguetech@gmail.com) > 3. Re: Jan Dircksen and Sara Teunis (Susan Claggett) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen and Sara Teunis (jroguetech@gmail.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 03:56:22 -0500 > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTikPwgcqm8TH99SPPdw54232PwVD2BDt-siDgdyY@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Sure... > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:51 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > >> That's a good idea. Would you be willing to contact her John? >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:42 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> >> No sources and not updated since 2004. Perhaps someone should contact >> Laurie >> Garrison...? LG7485@aol.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 04:14:04 -0500 > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTinebdXP9=tWzjb6epPF9hYgMiL7kB3Wk1VjPLG+@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Doesn't appear to be a gap in the dates; probably a blank page or something. > These records were a simple ledger style, one line after the next with no > filler. I don't think the years were actually recorded, but were in volumns. > Any error in the recording of the year would be immediately apparant to the > original transcriber(s). > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 3:49 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > >> John, >> >> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >> previously married) until you pointed it out. >> >> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec 31, >> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >> LOL. >> Thanks again! >> >> Susan >> >> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje >> Jans >> - page 76 >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >> Juffr. Ver Brack >> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >> Jacomyntie du Wel >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >> Ariaentie >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet >> Lodovyckszen >> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >> - page 78 >> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >> Marie Dopzen >> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, >> El >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived intact. >> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying >> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. in >> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may not >> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >> manifests by Dutch West Co. >> >> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >> were >> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >> that >> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >> to >> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, apprentishship >> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with >> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, she >> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: J" >> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >> >> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >> >> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>> other >>> staff. >>> >>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >> married >>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> Belief: NDG >>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> Groom: January Dircksz >>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> Young Daughter bride: J >>> Previous partner groom: >>> Previous partner bride >>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >> would >>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >> his >>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>> the >>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>> flip-flopping >>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>> have >>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>> >>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>> >>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> have >>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >> have >>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>> during) >>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>> speculating over). >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>> work >>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>> children >>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> obviously >>> a >>>>> different person. >>>>> >>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >> wise >>>>> the >>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>> >>>>> My previous question: >>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>> Did >>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>> Teunis >>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>> >>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 04:33:12 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen and Sara Teunis > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<DCA94C71D5204EDAA5D6FE21C8C57812@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > What does hometown wedding: Rotterdam mean? I know Sara is from Rotterdam > but what does home hometown wedding indicate? Could they have been married > in Rotterdam? Did anyone renew their vows once arriving in New Amsterdam to > be legally married in both places? > > Susan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Sorry, translation of marriage record: > Source Type: Wedding Book > Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York > Proclamation: 06/28/1664 > Belief: NDG > Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York > Groom: January Dircksz > Hometown groom: Arnhem > Bride: Sara Theunisz > Hometown wedding: Rotterdam > Young Daughter bride: J > Previous partner groom: > Previous partner bride > Further information: The groom is a soldier > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would >> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his >> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use the >> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of > flip-flopping >> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could > have >> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >> >> They were married Jun 28 1664: >> Soort bron: Trouwboek >> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> Gezindte: NDG >> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> Jongedochter bruid: J >> Vorige partner bruidegom: >> Vorige partner bruid: >> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> >> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have >> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have >> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or during) >> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >> speculating over). >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> >>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't > work >>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>> children >>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously > a >>> different person. >>> >>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise >>> the >>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>> >>> My previous question: >>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our > Jan >>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>> Did >>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>> Teunis >>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>> >>> >>> >>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>> >>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 05:06:23 -0500 > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen and Sara Teunis > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTimJtmSPH8TTdr6mffwePtPb7CO3QBXUtN-WQxLi@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Mistranslation. "Geboorteplaats bruid" Geboorte(n) means birth. Plaats is > place. Bruid is obviously bride. "Bride's birth place". > > Don't read too much into "birth". Not only did they not always give their > actual birth place, but who knows what the original record states. > "Geboorteplaats" is probably a word that BHIC uses, and may not be the same > used on the actual original record. > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 4:33 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > >> What does hometown wedding: Rotterdam mean? I know Sara is from Rotterdam >> but what does home hometown wedding indicate? Could they have been >> married >> in Rotterdam? Did anyone renew their vows once arriving in New Amsterdam >> to >> be legally married in both places? >> >> Susan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >> Source Type: Wedding Book >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >> Belief: NDG >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >> Groom: January Dircksz >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >> Young Daughter bride: J >> Previous partner groom: >> Previous partner bride >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk would >>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as his >>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >> the >>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >> flip-flopping >>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >> have >>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>> >>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>> Gezindte: NDG >>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>> Vorige partner bruid: >>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>> >>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I have >>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to have >>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >> during) >>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>> speculating over). >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >> work >>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>> children >>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is obviously >> a >>>> different person. >>>> >>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age wise >>>> the >>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>> >>>> My previous question: >>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >> Jan >>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>> Did >>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>> Teunis >>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>> >>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 135 > ***************************************** > >

Reid Hill Cemetery, Medina county, Ohio http://www.usgwarchives.net/oh/tombpics/medina/grangertwp/reidhillcem/reidhillcem.htm Vanorman, Elizabeth M., daughter of Joseph. & Patty Vanorman, died June 28, 1834, aged 15Y Vanorman, Jonathan M., son of Jos. & Patty Vanorman, died Oct. 20, 1834, aged 16Y

Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have been married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different records on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any likely variation named Thomas. There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the generations of the family. There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her name does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or mistranscribed. And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of which head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine got mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the time. (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are causing my (current) confusion. 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr & wife Helena Jansen 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan Ekkeson sr & wife Apalonia Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists > and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner > probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability > (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and > the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is > when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. And is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and Dirckszen before settleing on Van Arnhem. Sorry, won't work. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pim van Arnhem" <wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > Hi, > > "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena > where > one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch > parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz > van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) > who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter > Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van > Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise > all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There > was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! > > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > > Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >> where >> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >> kids >> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >> pregnancy.) >> >> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >> death. >> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks >> and >> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >> appears >> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other >> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >> >> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good >> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >> pretty >> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >> >> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents >> a >> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >> was, >> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >> fact, >> independent of each other. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> John, >>> >>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>> not >>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>> >>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>> 31, >>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>> LOL. >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>> Barentje >>> Jans >>> - page 76 >>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>> Willemszen, >>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>> Ariaentie >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>> Agniet >>> Lodovyckszen >>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >>> - page 78 >>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>> Marie Dopzen >>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>> Verleth, >>> El >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>> intact. >>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>> paying >>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >>> in >>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>> not >>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>> but >>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>> >>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>> were >>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>> that >>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>> married >>> to >>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>> apprentishship >>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>> with >>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>> she >>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >>> J" >>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>> >>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>> >>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>> other >>>> staff. >>>> >>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait >>>> to >>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>> If >>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>> married >>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>> Belief: NDG >>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>> Previous partner groom: >>>> Previous partner bride >>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>> would >>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>> his >>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>>> the >>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>> flip-flopping >>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>>> have >>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>> >>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>> >>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>> have >>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>> have >>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>> during) >>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>> speculating over). >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>>> work >>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>> children >>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>> obviously >>>> a >>>>>> different person. >>>>>> >>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>> wise >>>>>> the >>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>> >>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>> our >>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>> children? >>>>>> Did >>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>>> Teunis >>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>> >>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>> the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >> over >> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >> promulgated >> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where >> to >> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >> >> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >> of >> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >> Dircks >> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's >> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >> >> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in >> the >> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >> they >> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and >> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >> guarantee >> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >> >> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >> godparents >> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >> because >> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >> >> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >> that >> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >> fact, >> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >> after >> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of >> his known life. >> >> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so >> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >> More >> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >> the >> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >> >> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> >> >>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>> have >>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>> the >>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>> officer >>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>> Prince >>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>> fact? >>> >>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> *Individual Summary:* >>> >>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sex: >>> >>> Male >>> >>> >>> Father: >>> >>> Jan Derryckssen >>> >>> >>> Mother: >>> >>> Gerriken Beecken >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Individual Facts:* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Birth: >>> >>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 33 >>> >>> >>> Death: >>> >>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Military Service: >>> >>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Shared Facts:* >>> >>> *Magdalena Jans* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Marriage: >>> >>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 1692 >>> >>> >>> Children: >>> >>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> *Notes:* >>> >>> >>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>> >>> >>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>> >>> >>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >> want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >> posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >> their >> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >> and >> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >> the >> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >> >> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >> probably >> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >> (largely >> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >> another >> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >> >> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >> the >> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >> >> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >> on >> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >> when >> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >> >> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>> passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>> reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>> want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>> an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>> posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>> "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>> "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

One piece of info my Dad (Frederick Harold Van Orman III) told me is that his 5th great grandfather Issac van Arnhem (Aernam); bapt. 4 May 1704; Revolutionary soldier; 27 Jan 1777 was one of the original signers of the "Oath of Secrecy", for Committee of Correspondence. He also told me that his Van Orman side of the family arrived in the New World about 20 years after the Mayflower. He said that the Van Orman's married several direct Mayflower descendents which I have been able to track through Hatch, Paddock, Cornell and a few other lines in my pedigree. One other bit of family lore he passed on to me is that the Van Orman pedigree carries Viking and Norman blood. Not sure what that means actually. My brother took a Y DNA test confirming that we descend from what is believed to be the early NY VO line. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:34 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Pim: So good to hear from you again! I too am leaning to the theory that Jan Dircks parents are Dirk Jansz van Arnhem and Magdaleentjen Jannssen and that is why I added it to my tree to try to prove it. Do you have any thoughts about who Jan Dicksz from Bremen could have been? I am seeing several familiar names surrounding him. Looking forward to your input. I do remember my father telling me that our Van Orman family is from Arnhem, The Netherlands and he went to visit the city in 1966 with my Mom. He had been told quite a bit of family lore from his parents, grandparents, etc which he did tell a lot of it to me but I was too young to remember the fine details now. I so wish he had written it all down for us. He was very proud of his family heritage and over and over discussed the bravery of the many professional soldiers in the family. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:38 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Hi, "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) > 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward kids > every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to > weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another > pregnancy.) > > There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant death. > The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks and > Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she appears > at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other > than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name > Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite > often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. > > "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good > indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been pretty > scrupulous about baptising their offspring. > > My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a > nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and was, > in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, > independent of each other. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> John, >> >> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >> previously married) until you pointed it out. >> >> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >> 31, >> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >> LOL. >> Thanks again! >> >> Susan >> >> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje >> Jans >> - page 76 >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >> Juffr. Ver Brack >> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >> Jacomyntie du Wel >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >> Ariaentie >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet >> Lodovyckszen >> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >> - page 78 >> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >> Marie Dopzen >> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, >> El >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >> intact. >> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying >> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >> in >> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >> not >> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >> manifests by Dutch West Co. >> >> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >> were >> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >> that >> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >> to >> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >> apprentishship >> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with >> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >> she >> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >> J" >> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >> >> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >> >> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>> other >>> staff. >>> >>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >> married >>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> Belief: NDG >>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> Groom: January Dircksz >>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> Young Daughter bride: J >>> Previous partner groom: >>> Previous partner bride >>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>> would >>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>> his >>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>> the >>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>> flip-flopping >>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>> have >>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>> >>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>> >>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> have >>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>> have >>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>> during) >>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>> speculating over). >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>> work >>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>> children >>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> obviously >>> a >>>>> different person. >>>>> >>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>> wise >>>>> the >>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>> >>>>> My previous question: >>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>> Did >>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>> Teunis >>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>> >>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all over > the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated > it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where to > begin. Here are the two big ones. though: > > When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of > people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's > unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. > > I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in the > first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died they > themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and > doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee > the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). > > I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as godparents > other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so > barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan > Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks because > that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. > > I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man that > Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, > "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up > against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after > the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of > his known life. > > The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for > common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so > would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More > to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the > case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. > > Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an > impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the > hypothezied scion of a professional family. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > >> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have >> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >> officer >> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >> Prince >> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >> fact? >> >> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> *Individual Summary:* >> >> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> >> >> >> Sex: >> >> Male >> >> >> Father: >> >> Jan Derryckssen >> >> >> Mother: >> >> Gerriken Beecken >> >> >> >> >> >> *Individual Facts:* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birth: >> >> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 33 >> >> >> Death: >> >> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Military Service: >> >> officer under General Count von Nassau >> >> >> >> >> >> *Shared Facts:* >> >> *Magdalena Jans* >> >> >> >> >> >> Marriage: >> >> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 1692 >> >> >> Children: >> >> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Joris Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> *Notes:* >> >> >> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >> >> >> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >> >> >> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Pete: > > So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's > names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at > online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because these > lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain have > any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons at > the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want > and need to know. > > You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy > reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Do > you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been > studying the VN family? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't > > actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' > account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid > before sailing. > > I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier > on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid > deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an > empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the > passage on the other end was logically something less than that. > > Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted > at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an > objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the > wedding took place at the end of the fourth. > > Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." > Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what > most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in > > Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". > > --pete > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 > ***************************************** > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pim: So good to hear from you again! I too am leaning to the theory that Jan Dircks parents are Dirk Jansz van Arnhem and Magdaleentjen Jannssen and that is why I added it to my tree to try to prove it. Do you have any thoughts about who Jan Dicksz from Bremen could have been? I am seeing several familiar names surrounding him. Looking forward to your input. I do remember my father telling me that our Van Orman family is from Arnhem, The Netherlands and he went to visit the city in 1966 with my Mom. He had been told quite a bit of family lore from his parents, grandparents, etc which he did tell a lot of it to me but I was too young to remember the fine details now. I so wish he had written it all down for us. He was very proud of his family heritage and over and over discussed the bravery of the many professional soldiers in the family. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:38 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Hi, "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) > 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward kids > every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to > weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another > pregnancy.) > > There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant death. > The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks and > Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she appears > at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other > than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name > Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite > often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. > > "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good > indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been pretty > scrupulous about baptising their offspring. > > My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a > nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and was, > in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, > independent of each other. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> John, >> >> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >> previously married) until you pointed it out. >> >> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >> 31, >> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >> LOL. >> Thanks again! >> >> Susan >> >> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje >> Jans >> - page 76 >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >> Juffr. Ver Brack >> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >> Jacomyntie du Wel >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >> Ariaentie >> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet >> Lodovyckszen >> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >> - page 78 >> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >> Marie Dopzen >> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, >> El >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >> intact. >> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying >> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >> in >> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >> not >> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >> manifests by Dutch West Co. >> >> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >> were >> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >> that >> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >> to >> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >> apprentishship >> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with >> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >> she >> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >> J" >> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >> >> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >> >> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >> >>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>> other >>> staff. >>> >>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >> married >>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>> Belief: NDG >>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>> Groom: January Dircksz >>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>> Young Daughter bride: J >>> Previous partner groom: >>> Previous partner bride >>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>> would >>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>> his >>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>> the >>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>> flip-flopping >>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>> have >>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>> >>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>> >>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> have >>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>> have >>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>> during) >>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>> speculating over). >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>> work >>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>> children >>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> obviously >>> a >>>>> different person. >>>>> >>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>> wise >>>>> the >>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>> >>>>> My previous question: >>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>> Did >>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>> Teunis >>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>> >>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all over > the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated > it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where to > begin. Here are the two big ones. though: > > When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of > people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan Dircks > and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's > unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. > > I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in the > first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died they > themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and > doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee > the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). > > I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as godparents > other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so > barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan > Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks because > that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. > > I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man that > Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, > "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up > against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after > the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of > his known life. > > The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for > common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so > would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More > to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the > case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. > > Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an > impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the > hypothezied scion of a professional family. > > --pete > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > >> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have >> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >> officer >> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >> Prince >> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >> fact? >> >> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> *Individual Summary:* >> >> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >> >> >> >> >> >> Sex: >> >> Male >> >> >> Father: >> >> Jan Derryckssen >> >> >> Mother: >> >> Gerriken Beecken >> >> >> >> >> >> *Individual Facts:* >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Birth: >> >> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 33 >> >> >> Death: >> >> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Military Service: >> >> officer under General Count von Nassau >> >> >> >> >> >> *Shared Facts:* >> >> *Magdalena Jans* >> >> >> >> >> >> Marriage: >> >> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >> >> >> Reference ID: >> >> 1692 >> >> >> Children: >> >> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Joris Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >> >> >> >> *Notes:* >> >> >> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >> >> >> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >> >> >> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Pete: > > So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's > names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at > online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because these > lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain have > any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons at > the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want > and need to know. > > You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy > reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Do > you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been > studying the VN family? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't > > actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' > account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid > before sailing. > > I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier > on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid > deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an > empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the > passage on the other end was logically something less than that. > > Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted > at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an > objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the > wedding took place at the end of the fourth. > > Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." > Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what > most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in > > Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". > > --pete > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 > ***************************************** > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are causing my (current) confusion. 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr & wife Helena Jansen 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan Ekkeson sr & wife Apalonia Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Correct.  The lists are only of  those passengers whe owed passage at their > destination.  Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and > other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the > immigrants to New Amsterdam. > > The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably > knew who his passengers were in a sense.  Safety and accountability (largely > modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it.  But one way or another > you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there > whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. > > The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the > trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. > How much fraternization went on I have no clue. > > I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 > years now.  Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on > the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when > the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. > > I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks > was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after > 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so.  Same for Sarah. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest?  The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >> these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers?  Did the Captain >> have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >> at >> the time of sailing?  I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family.  I always enjoy >> reading your emails.  Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family?  Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists".  The ones you see on the Internet >> aren't >> >> actually that.  What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >> flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand.  My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading.  Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >> the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage:  Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks.  If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >> what >> most unmarried women were.  I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >> in >> >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists and other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the immigrants to New Amsterdam. The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner probably knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability (largely modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and the trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. How much fraternization went on I have no clue. I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is when the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > Pete: > > So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's > names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at > online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because > these > lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain > have > any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons > at > the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want > and need to know. > > You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy > reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. > Do > you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been > studying the VN family? Thanks > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet > aren't > > actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' > account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid > before sailing. > > I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a > flier > on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid > deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an > empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for > the > passage on the other end was logically something less than that. > > Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted > at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an > objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the > wedding took place at the end of the fourth. > > Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." > Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's > what > most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" > in > > Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". > > --pete > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Pete: So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because these lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain have any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons at the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want and need to know. You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. Do you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been studying the VN family? Thanks Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid before sailing. I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the passage on the other end was logically something less than that. Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the wedding took place at the end of the fourth. Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". --pete

Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all over the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where to begin. Here are the two big ones. though: When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan Dircks and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in the first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died they themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as godparents other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks because that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man that Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of his known life. The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the hypothezied scion of a professional family. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Schwenn" <schwel@comcast.net> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have > not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the > current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found > duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan > Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an > officer > in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. > Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, > Prince > of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or > fact? > > *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* > > > *Individual Summary:* > > *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* > > > > > > Sex: > > Male > > > Father: > > Jan Derryckssen > > > Mother: > > Gerriken Beecken > > > > > > *Individual Facts:* > > > > > > > Birth: > > Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > Reference ID: > > 33 > > > Death: > > Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > Military Service: > > officer under General Count von Nassau > > > > > > *Shared Facts:* > > *Magdalena Jans* > > > > > > Marriage: > > 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > Reference ID: > > 1692 > > > Children: > > Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA > > > > Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA > > > > Joris Van Arnhem VA > > > > Hendrik Van Arnhem VA > > > > Marricken Van Arnhem VA > > > > *Notes:* > > > Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] > > > Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. > > > Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in > "Man in a Golden Helmet". > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward kids every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another pregnancy.) There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant death. The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks and Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she appears at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been pretty scrupulous about baptising their offspring. My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and was, in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, independent of each other. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > John, > > You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. > Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not > notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not > previously married) until you pointed it out. > > I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec > 31, > 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are > several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, > LOL. > Thanks again! > > Susan > > 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina > 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, Barentje > Jans > - page 76 > 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, > Juffr. Ver Brack > 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, > Jacomyntie du Wel > 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, > Ariaentie > 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, Agniet > Lodovyckszen > 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen > - page 78 > 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, > Marie Dopzen > 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes Verleth, > El > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships > were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived > intact. > In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying > passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been > recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. > in > Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New > Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may > not > have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. > These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but > manifests by Dutch West Co. > > They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch > Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The > concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages > were > the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce > their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture > that > it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married > to > come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, > apprentishship > masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record > searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was > similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with > disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a > requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, > basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, > she > was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: > J" > - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") > > If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. > > BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The > actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > >> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >> other >> staff. >> >> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get > married >> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >> Source Type: Wedding Book >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >> Belief: NDG >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >> Groom: January Dircksz >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >> Young Daughter bride: J >> Previous partner groom: >> Previous partner bride >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >> > would >> > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >> > his >> > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >> the >> > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >> flip-flopping >> > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >> have >> > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >> > >> > They were married Jun 28 1664: >> > Soort bron: Trouwboek >> > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> > Gezindte: NDG >> > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> > Jongedochter bruid: J >> > Vorige partner bruidegom: >> > Vorige partner bruid: >> > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> > >> > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I > have >> > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >> > have >> > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >> during) >> > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >> > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >> > speculating over). >> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < >> > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >> work >> >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >> >> children >> >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is > obviously >> a >> >> different person. >> >> >> >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >> >> wise >> >> the >> >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >> >> >> >> My previous question: >> >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >> Jan >> >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >> >> Did >> >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >> >> Teunis >> >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >> >> >> >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >> >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >> >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet aren't actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid before sailing. I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a flier on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for the passage on the other end was logically something less than that. Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the wedding took place at the end of the fourth. Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's what most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" in Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships > were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived > intact. > In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as paying > passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been > recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. > in > Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New > Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may > not > have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. > These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but > manifests by Dutch West Co. > > They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch > Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The > concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages > were > the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce > their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture > that > it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married > to > come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, > apprentishship > masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record > searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was > similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today with > disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a > requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, > basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, > she > was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: > J" > - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") > > If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. > > BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The > actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > >> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >> other >> staff. >> >> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait to >> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? If >> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >> married >> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >> Source Type: Wedding Book >> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >> Belief: NDG >> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >> Groom: January Dircksz >> Hometown groom: Arnhem >> Bride: Sara Theunisz >> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >> Young Daughter bride: J >> Previous partner groom: >> Previous partner bride >> Further information: The groom is a soldier >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >> > would >> > have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >> > his >> > father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >> the >> > same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >> flip-flopping >> > names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >> have >> > been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >> > >> > They were married Jun 28 1664: >> > Soort bron: Trouwboek >> > Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >> > Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >> > Gezindte: NDG >> > Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >> > Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >> > Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >> > Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >> > Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >> > Jongedochter bruid: J >> > Vorige partner bruidegom: >> > Vorige partner bruid: >> > Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >> > >> > De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >> > have >> > argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >> > have >> > been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >> during) >> > the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >> > daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >> > speculating over). >> > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett < >> > claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> > >> >> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >> work >> >> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >> >> children >> >> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >> >> obviously >> a >> >> different person. >> >> >> >> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >> >> wise >> >> the >> >> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >> >> >> >> My previous question: >> >> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >> Jan >> >> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >> >> Did >> >> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >> >> Teunis >> >> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >> >> >> >> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >> >> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >> >> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >