Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of "brother-in-law" and the book itself. I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is translated and transcribed "original") records available? On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next several pages especially 244. http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C <http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Di rcksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum= 1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false> &pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dircksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi =book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false Regards, Susan Van Orman Claggett P.S. I am having trouble getting this to go through to the list. If it duplicates I apologize.
I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next several pages especially 244. http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false Regards, Susan Van Orman Claggett -----Original Message----- From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was his wife. Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church --------------. While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's the last record of them I can find. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Is this the gossiping case? http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up (1st paragraph) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened > on > Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > ----------- > There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, > again, for gossiping. > > After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > I don't know. > > Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > > Pete, is this our Sarah? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > > (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >> is our Sara. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>> >>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >> lists >>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >> WIC. >>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>> >>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>> for >>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >> in >>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>> qualities. >>> >>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >> record >>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>> >>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >> occupation, >>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>> >>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >> possibly >>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >> they >>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>> -------- >>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >> Aside >>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >> Sara, >>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >> one >>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>> >>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>> >>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>> somewhat >>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >> of >>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >> or >>> some sort of cousin. >>> >>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>> I >>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>> Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next several pages. http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false Susan Van Orman Claggett
I love all of this background information Pete. It really adds personality to our search. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was his wife. Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church --------------. While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's the last record of them I can find. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Is this the gossiping case? http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up (1st paragraph) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened > on > Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > ----------- > There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, > again, for gossiping. > > After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > I don't know. > > Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > > Pete, is this our Sarah? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > > (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >> is our Sara. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>> >>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >> lists >>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >> WIC. >>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>> >>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>> for >>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >> in >>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>> qualities. >>> >>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >> record >>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>> >>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >> occupation, >>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>> >>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >> possibly >>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >> they >>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>> -------- >>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >> Aside >>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >> Sara, >>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >> one >>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>> >>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>> >>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>> somewhat >>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >> of >>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >> or >>> some sort of cousin. >>> >>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>> I >>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>> Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was his wife. Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church --------------. While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's the last record of them I can find. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) Is this the gossiping case? http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up (1st paragraph) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened > on > Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > ----------- > There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, > again, for gossiping. > > After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > I don't know. > > Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > > Pete, is this our Sarah? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%22+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > > (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >> is our Sara. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>> >>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >> lists >>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >> WIC. >>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>> >>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>> for >>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >> in >>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>> qualities. >>> >>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >> record >>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>> >>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >> occupation, >>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>> >>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >> possibly >>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >> they >>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>> -------- >>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >> Aside >>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >> Sara, >>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >> one >>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>> >>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>> >>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>> somewhat >>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >> of >>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >> or >>> some sort of cousin. >>> >>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>> I >>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>> Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Those who did the research for this book have done a great service. I am grateful to Steve Cunnion for my copy, which I use regularly. I did find an error that those of you who have this book should be alerted to. Abraham's son Stephen married Caroline, not Abigail as the book has listed. Stephen and Caroline had a daughter Lucy. The Stephen b 1811 who married Abigail is the son of Andrew and Lucy Witter/Whitter/Whittier. Their grandson Park is named after Lucy's father. Stephen and Caroline moved to Sheboygan, WI (1850 census). Abraham and Jane with their son Newcomb went to Sheboygan about 1851. Abraham is living there in 1860 with his daughter Sarah's family. By 1870 Stephen, Caroline, and Lucy had moved to Fond du Lac, WI. Staying with them is his brother, D.C. (Dialone, Dylone...I've seen two spellings and he just used initials in most censuses.) and his wife Mary. D.C. is a documented son of Abraham and Jane. Pete Shew has a wonderful website with biographical information on many Van Arnams. http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/index.htm?ssmain=p2354.htm It was his site that included the information that Abraham went to Sheboygan in 1851. He has some interesting photos also. Van Arnam Abraham Jr. <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4141.htm> b. 1789 Abraham N <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4000.htm> b. 1815, d. 1887 Abraham Sr. <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p3995.htm> b. 1762, d. 1835 Abram Newcomb <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4136.htm> b. 1831, d. 1919 Albert Holley <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p3997.htm> b. 1807, d. 1874 Belle <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4195.htm> b. 1865 Catherine A <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4006.htm> b. 1831 Charles E. <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4183.htm> Ellen <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4199.htm> b. 1858 Frances A. <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p1388.htm> b. 1850, d. 1929 George <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4192.htm> b. 1852 George Edward <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p2355.htm> b. 1852 Hannah <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4146.htm> b. 1795, d. 1825 Hannah Caroline <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p3998.htm> b. 1811 Harmon <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4148.htm> b. 1797 Harriet <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4123.htm> b. 1816, d. 1894 Henry Willard <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p2354.htm> b. 1879, d. circa 1925 Hiram <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4150.htm> b. 1800 Jacob <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p1216.htm> b. 1784, d. 1842 Jacob E <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4418.htm> b. 1842 Jacob I Jr. <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4003.htm> b. 1822 James <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4117.htm> d. 1840 John <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4428.htm> b. 1829 John Fitch <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4005.htm> b. 1828, d. 1909 Joseph Fitch <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4427.htm> b. 1827Van Arnam (cont.) Josepha <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4138.htm> b. 1842, d. 1842 Julia <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4430.htm> b. 1840 Laura Amanda <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4007.htm> b. 1834 Lena <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4143.htm> b. 1791 Lucy <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p1219.htm> b. 1832 Lydia <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4194.htm> b. 1863 Lydia Emily <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p1138.htm> b. 1804, d. 1886 Maggie <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4196.htm> b. 1868 Mary Ann <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4001.htm> b. 1818 Mary E <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4419.htm> b. 1846 Matilda Elizabeth <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p1218.htm> b. 1826, d. 1906 Newcomb J <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4131.htm> d. 1892 Sally <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4139.htm> b. 1787 Sally Maria <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4002.htm> b. 1820 Samuel B <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4004.htm> b. 1824 Sarah Elizabeth <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4193.htm> b. 1854 Simon <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4144.htm> b. 1793, d. 1857 Simon Jr. <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4718.htm> b. 1821, d. 1824 William <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4429.htm> b. 1836 William B. <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4719.htm> b. 1831, d. 1832 William N. <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p4182.htm> b. 1849, d. 1873 William Randall <http://www.godfreyshew.110mb.com/p3999.htm> b. 1813, d. 1894Linda
Is this the gossiping case? http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up (1st paragraph) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened on > Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > ----------- > There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, > again, for gossiping. > > After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > I don't know. > > Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > > Pete, is this our Sarah? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%22+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > > (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >> is our Sara. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >> >> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>> >>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >> lists >>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >> WIC. >>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>> >>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble for >>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >> in >>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>> qualities. >>> >>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >> record >>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>> >>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >> occupation, >>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>> >>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >> possibly >>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >> they >>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>> -------- >>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >> Aside >>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >> Sara, >>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >> one >>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>> >>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>> >>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The somewhat >>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >> of >>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >> or >>> some sort of cousin. >>> >>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>> I >>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened on Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. ----------- There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, again, for gossiping. After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) I don't know. Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 Pete, is this our Sarah? http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%22+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the > truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this > is our Sara. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > > Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> I agree with several of your conclusions. >> >> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record > lists >> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to > WIC. >> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >> >> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble for >> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither > in >> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >> qualities. >> >> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > record >> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >> >> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > occupation, >> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >> >> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > possibly >> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, > they >> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >> -------- >> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. > Aside >> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > Sara, >> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long > one >> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >> >> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >> >> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The somewhat >> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort > of >> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother > or >> some sort of cousin. >> >> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >> I >> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan Dircks >> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >> >> --pete >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I don't know. Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 Pete, is this our Sarah? http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%22+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the > truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this > is our Sara. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > > Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > > On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> I agree with several of your conclusions. >> >> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record > lists >> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to > WIC. >> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >> >> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble for >> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither > in >> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >> qualities. >> >> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > record >> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >> >> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > occupation, >> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >> >> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > possibly >> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, > they >> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >> -------- >> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. > Aside >> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > Sara, >> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long > one >> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >> >> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >> >> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The somewhat >> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort > of >> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother > or >> some sort of cousin. >> >> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research I >> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan Dircks >> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >> >> --pete >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Hi Pete, I absolutely agree with you at that point. As far as I know I never said something to be proof when it wasn't. But I also know, as you should too, that twentieth century reason and 'strong argumentation' doesn't proof anything either. I just want to hold the different opportunities open in research. And I want to point to possible ways of further investigation. So if you have proof of anything concerning these people: please let me (and the others on this forum) know. Only then I will be convinced. As you have seen on my website there are at least ten family branches with the surname Van Arnhem, up till now without any connection or interrelationship, and I certainly don't think they have one common ancenstry. Again: I just want to share possibilities for further investigation - like you also do all the time. The one I showed below is an interesting one and some genealogists in Europe are in search for a proof of this possibility. Kind regards, Pim Op 11-10-2010 15:30, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 08:30:19 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP1723AD4AD41CB9C36ED45B7AB530@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Dear Pim-- > > The issue is burden of proof. You assert a connection. It's not enough to > say "there's no proof against it." You need to show something in support of > it. Similarity of what may or may not be surnames just isn't enough. > > I've already demonstrated that there are probably at least three families > (including the Van Arnhem/Arnams) in the U.S. whose surnames mutated into > "|Van Norman." In other words, just because two people share the Van Norman > surname is no proof they share common ancestry. The same may be and > probably was true of Van Arnhems 350 years ago. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:56 AM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > > >> Hi Pete, >> There was a lot of name-changing, mis-writing and experimenting with >> both patronyms and surnames in those day's in the Netherlands too. So >> that's no proof that Jan Dircks didn't have Van Arnhem as surname in the >> Netherlands. I've seen that several times in records here, making >> research sometimes troublesome. >> Maybe Jan Dirks didn't (or even didn't want to) use his surname Van >> Arnhem during his trip to the States, but started using it again on a >> later date. A reason that his name wasn't used can be that he was indeed >> a bastard descendant of the noble family van Arnhem. His father then >> would have been dat Dirk Jansz officer or soldier under General Graaf >> van Nassau, this is Frederick Hendrick van Nassau, who followed up >> Prince Maurits. What I have as proof is that this Maurits had a Jan van >> Aernhem as korporaal (officer) in service, who's father Gerhard van >> Arnhem was stalmeester (stable master) of Maurits. So the line can be >> Gerhard van Arnhem had a son Jan, who had a son Dirk Jansz, who had a >> son Jan Dirksz, the one who emigrated to Amerika. All Van Arnhems here >> have Van Arnhem as surname, not as city where the come from. If this is >> the case, there was no reason to use his surname, a patronym could be >> sufficient. >> >> I do not have any info about the Jan Dirksz from Bremen. In several >> records I see that harbors are mentioned - not to be confused with >> surnames - so it looks like another Jan Dircksz leaving from Bremen. >> Both names Jan en Dirk were very common in the Netherlands, leaving us >> with thousands of possibilities as long as we do not have the surname or >> other relevant information. >> Kind regards, >> Pim van Arnhem >> >> Op 10-10-2010 23:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>> , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>> 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:37:59 -0500 >>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>> Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP134705BA14EFEDCFC65BCD5AB520@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. >>> And >>> is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and >>> Dirckszen >>> before settleing on Van Arnhem. >>> >>> Sorry, won't work. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>>> where >>>> one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch >>>> parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz >>>> van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) >>>> who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter >>>> Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van >>>> Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise >>>> all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There >>>> was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Pim van Arnhem >>>> >>>> >>>> Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>>>> Today's Topics: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>>> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >>>>> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >>>>> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>>> Message: 1 >>>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>>> reply-type=original >>>>> >>>>> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>>>> where >>>>> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >>>>> kids >>>>> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child >>>>> to >>>>> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing >>>>> another >>>>> pregnancy.) >>>>> >>>>> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >>>>> death. >>>>> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and >>>>> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >>>>> appears >>>>> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record >>>>> other >>>>> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >>>>> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >>>>> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >>>>> >>>>> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a >>>>> good >>>>> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >>>>> pretty >>>>> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >>>>> >>>>> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena >>>>> represents >>>>> a >>>>> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >>>>> was, >>>>> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >>>>> fact, >>>>> independent of each other. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> John, >>>>>> >>>>>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on >>>>>> track. >>>>>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>>>>> not >>>>>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>>>>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be >>>>>> Dec >>>>>> 31, >>>>>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There >>>>>> are >>>>>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't >>>>>> know, >>>>>> LOL. >>>>>> Thanks again! >>>>>> >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, >>>>>> Christina >>>>>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>>>>> Barentje >>>>>> Jans >>>>>> - page 76 >>>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>>>>> Willemszen, >>>>>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>>>>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>>>>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>>>>> Ariaentie >>>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>>>>> Agniet >>>>>> Lodovyckszen >>>>>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan >>>>>> Adamszen >>>>>> - page 78 >>>>>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen >>>>>> Dirckszen, >>>>>> Marie Dopzen >>>>>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>>>>> Verleth, >>>>>> El >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>>> >>>>>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but >>>>>> ships >>>>>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>>>>> intact. >>>>>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>>>>> paying >>>>>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have >>>>>> been >>>>>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India >>>>>> Co. >>>>>> in >>>>>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>>>>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches >>>>>> may >>>>>> not >>>>>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of >>>>>> yet. >>>>>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>>>>> but >>>>>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>>>>> >>>>>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>>>>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. >>>>>> The >>>>>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. >>>>>> Marriages >>>>>> were >>>>>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to >>>>>> announce >>>>>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would >>>>>> conjecture >>>>>> that >>>>>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>>>>> married >>>>>> to >>>>>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>>>>> apprentishship >>>>>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for >>>>>> record >>>>>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns >>>>>> was >>>>>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>>>>> with >>>>>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>>>>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>>>>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage >>>>>> record, >>>>>> she >>>>>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter >>>>>> bruid: >>>>>> J" >>>>>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>>>>> >>>>>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. >>>>>> The >>>>>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>>>>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with >>>>>>> Sara >>>>>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger >>>>>>> count. >>>>>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> staff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they >>>>>>> wait >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>>>>> If >>>>>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>>>>> married >>>>>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a >>>>>>> young >>>>>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was >>>>>>> born. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Susan >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter >>>>>>> Teunisz, >>>>>>> Jan >>>>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>>>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>>>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>>>>> Belief: NDG >>>>>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>>>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>>>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>>>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>>>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>>>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>>>>> Previous partner groom: >>>>>>> Previous partner bride >>>>>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to >>>>>>>> use >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>>>>> flip-flopping >>>>>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>>>>> have >>>>>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>>>>> during) >>>>>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not >>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> speculating over). >>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages >>>>>>>>> won't >>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>>>>> obviously >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> different person. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>>>>> wise >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>>>>> children? >>>>>>>>> Did >>>>>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to >>>>>>>>> Sara >>>>>>>>> Teunis >>>>>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 2 >>>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>>> reply-type=original >>>>> >>>>> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >>>>> over >>>>> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >>>>> promulgated >>>>> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know >>>>> where >>>>> to >>>>> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >>>>> >>>>> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >>>>> of >>>>> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. >>>>> It's >>>>> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >>>>> >>>>> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for >>>>> in >>>>> the >>>>> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >>>>> they >>>>> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" >>>>> and >>>>> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >>>>> guarantee >>>>> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >>>>> >>>>> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >>>>> godparents >>>>> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and >>>>> so >>>>> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >>>>> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >>>>> because >>>>> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >>>>> >>>>> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >>>>> that >>>>> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >>>>> fact, >>>>> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >>>>> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >>>>> after >>>>> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest >>>>> of >>>>> his known life. >>>>> >>>>> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive >>>>> for >>>>> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing >>>>> so >>>>> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >>>>> More >>>>> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >>>>> the >>>>> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >>>>> >>>>> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >>>>> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >>>>> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >>>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >>>>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>>>>> have >>>>>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>>>>> the >>>>>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have >>>>>> found >>>>>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>>>>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>>>>> officer >>>>>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>>>>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>>>>> Prince >>>>>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant >>>>>> error...or >>>>>> fact? >>>>>> >>>>>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Individual Summary:* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sex: >>>>>> >>>>>> Male >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Father: >>>>>> >>>>>> Jan Derryckssen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mother: >>>>>> >>>>>> Gerriken Beecken >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Individual Facts:* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Birth: >>>>>> >>>>>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Reference ID: >>>>>> >>>>>> 33 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Death: >>>>>> >>>>>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Military Service: >>>>>> >>>>>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Shared Facts:* >>>>>> >>>>>> *Magdalena Jans* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marriage: >>>>>> >>>>>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Reference ID: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1692 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Children: >>>>>> >>>>>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Notes:* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject >>>>>> in >>>>>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 3 >>>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >>>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>>> >>>>> Pete: >>>>> >>>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>>> passenger's >>>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>>> these >>>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>>> have >>>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>>> reasons >>>>> at >>>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>>> want >>>>> and need to know. >>>>> >>>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always >>>>> enjoy >>>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with >>>>> us. >>>>> Do >>>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have >>>>> been >>>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>>> aren't >>>>> >>>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>>> before sailing. >>>>> >>>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>>> flier >>>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to >>>>> avoid >>>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>>> an >>>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>>> the >>>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>>> posted >>>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>>> >>>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>>> "never-married." >>>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>>> what >>>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>>> "spinster" >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 4 >>>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>>> reply-type=original >>>>> >>>>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>>>> their >>>>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial >>>>> lists >>>>> and >>>>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>>>> the >>>>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>>>> >>>>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>>>> probably >>>>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>>>> (largely >>>>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>>>> another >>>>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>>>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>>>> >>>>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>>>> the >>>>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers >>>>> repeatedly. >>>>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>>>> >>>>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about >>>>> 12 >>>>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've >>>>> concentrated >>>>> on >>>>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>>>> when >>>>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>>>> >>>>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) >>>>> after >>>>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for >>>>> Sarah. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Pete: >>>>>> >>>>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>>>> passenger's >>>>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>>>> these >>>>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>>>> have >>>>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>>>> reasons >>>>>> at >>>>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>>>> want >>>>>> and need to know. >>>>>> >>>>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always >>>>>> enjoy >>>>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with >>>>>> us. >>>>>> Do >>>>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have >>>>>> been >>>>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>>> >>>>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>>>> aren't >>>>>> >>>>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>>>> before sailing. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>>>> flier >>>>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to >>>>>> avoid >>>>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>>>> an >>>>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt >>>>>> for >>>>>> the >>>>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>>>> posted >>>>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) >>>>>> the >>>>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>>>> "never-married." >>>>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>>>> what >>>>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>>>> "spinster" >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>>>> >>>>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>>>> >>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>>>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>>>> body of the >>>>> email with no additional text. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >>>>> ***************************************** >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:59:24 -0500 >>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP14345E189A7411707300E51AB520@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. >>> >>> Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have >>> been >>> married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different >>> records >>> on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into >>> which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived >>> somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records >>> anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any >>> likely >>> variation named Thomas. >>> >>> There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van >>> Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the >>> generations of the family. >>> >>> There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her >>> name >>> does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died >>> young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or >>> mistranscribed. >>> >>> And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of >>> which >>> head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine >>> got >>> mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake >>> considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the >>> time. >>> (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>> Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you >>> about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even >>> formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are >>> causing my (current) confusion. >>> >>> 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, >>> jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier >>> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr >>> & wife Helena Jansen >>> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan >>> Ekkeson sr& wife Apalonia >>> >>> Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>>> their >>>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>>> and >>>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>>> the >>>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>>> >>>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>>> probably >>>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>>> (largely >>>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>>> another >>>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>>> >>>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>>> the >>>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers >>>> repeatedly. >>>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>>> >>>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about >>>> 12 >>>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >>>> on >>>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>>> when >>>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>>> >>>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Pete: >>>>> >>>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>>> passenger's >>>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>>> these >>>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>>> have >>>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>>> reasons >>>>> at >>>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>>> want >>>>> and need to know. >>>>> >>>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>>> Do >>>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have >>>>> been >>>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>>> aren't >>>>> >>>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>>> before sailing. >>>>> >>>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>>> flier >>>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>>> an >>>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>>> the >>>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>>> posted >>>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>>> >>>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>>> "never-married." >>>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>>> what >>>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>>> "spinster" >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>> body of the >>> email with no additional text. >>> >>> >>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 140 >>> ***************************************** >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 145 > ***************************************** > >
Nicholas Van Arnum 1830 Brunswick M: 2 under 5, 1 15-19, 1 30-39 F: 2 5-9, 1 30-39 Note this burial record I found today on one of Barbara Jeffries transcriptions OAKWOOD CEMETERY BURIALS Troy, NY d 1854 -Oct 10- Mary E. Harris b Brunswick -age at death 27- parents:Nicolas & Martha E. Van Arnum Mary would have been born in 1827, so in 1830 she'd be 3. Not an exact fit. But we don't have a lot of Nicholases to choose from in Brunswick 1830. Mary is not found on Interment or Find a Grave. Linda
Hi Susan, I'm packing right now to travel coming week to Spain, so at this moment I'll give you a very short answer, hoping to reply more in detail when I return. Good to see that Jan used his surname as soon as his wedding: that supports that Van Arnhem is his surname, and not te place where he came from (Sara is'nt called Sara van Rotterdam to make a comparison!). Then your questions: I have the information that Jan was baptized on saterday 13 october 1640 in Arnhem [Dutchs Hervormd] and travelled with "Het Gebroken Hart" (Broken Heart) when he came to New York in januari 1664. For the source of this info I have to dig it up later. I haven't done research on Sarah, so probably Pete is right in his argument ... but we still can't be sure building on arguments. There are written already many thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sarah's first child and the date of wedding. I don't know how long a trip was, but probably Sarah was already pregnant (by Jan) before they left te Neterlands. I have many accounts (even of people born in the 20th century) of children being born a few months after de weddingday: the couple being in love haven a sexual relationship before marriage ... nothing new under the sun - especcially not for soldiers. But for this, we should know how long the boat trip was and I don't have that clear right now. There has been a noble Van Arnhem family in the Netherlands as far as we know from around the year 1100 up to 1716 when the last of these noble Van Arnhems died, without leaving children. But, there are several "bastards" from this family. A basterd was not a noble man and most of the time they didn't have any part of the inheritance of their father. This is probably the reason for some of the Van Arnhem family-branches in the Netherlands (in one instance I'm quite sure of it). Thanks for your honest questions and the open mind to research all possibilities. Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 11-10-2010 13:24, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) (Susan Claggett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 05:57:09 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<5667DFD770794BB880314E7BAE7D79D3@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Pim, > > Jan Dirckzen does actually use his surname on his wedding record in 1664: > > 1664 28 Jun; Jan Dirckszen, van Aernhem, Soldaet; Sara Theuniszen, jd van > Rotterdam > > Could you please tell me more about his arrival in New Amsterdam? I have > seen it mention that he arrived in New Amsterdam in January of 1664 as a > soldier but I can't remember the name of the ship. Do you have the > information about his sailing? > > I personally don't think our Sara Theunis is a Van Salee for the reasons > that Pete has referenced previously. I found a note of his today and read > it again and it refutes it very clearly. > > What are your thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sara's first child less > than six months from their date of marriage? > > Is the Van Arnhem family a noble family in The Netherlands? What makes it > so? > > Another reference from the Fonda family tree about Jan Dirckzen surname is > below. > > Thank you! > > Regards, > > Susan > > Hester Janse FONDA, born 1672.2 She married Jan Janse VANARNAM 14 Oct > 1696.12 Jan > Janse VANARNAM was born 4 Jun 1671,13 died 1 Apr 1708.14 > b. Albany, NY; d. Albany, Albany Co., NY; had 6 children from 1697-1708: > Sara, Abraham, > Rebecca, Isaac, Rachael and Jan Dirck; [R044] Innes Getty Collection: Jellis > Douwse Fonda; > [R034] The Compendium of American Genealogy>> www.fonda.org<< > Notes for Jan Janse VANARNAM: b. NY; s/o Jan Dirckzen VanAernam (b1640 in > Holland) > and Sarah Theunis; d. Rensselaerwyck (now Troy), NY; son Isaac VanAernam > (bp. > 4-May-1704) Revolutionary Soldier was signer of original "Oath of Secrecy" > (1/27/1777), > Albany Committee of Correspondence, 115 county-wide signers, promise to keep > Committee > business secret; [R002] Pearson's First Settlers of the Ancient County of > Albany; [R093] > William Randall (1609-1693) of Scituate and his Descendants with Ancestral > Families; [R034] > The Compendium of American Genealogy>> www.fonda.org<< > Notes for Hester Janse FONDA and Jan Janse VANARNAM: m. First Dutch Reformed > Church, Albany, NY or Rennselaerwyck, NY; [R087c] Genealogical and Family > History of > Northern New York > -----Original Message----- > From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:56 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > > Hi Pete, > There was a lot of name-changing, mis-writing and experimenting with > both patronyms and surnames in those day's in the Netherlands too. So > that's no proof that Jan Dircks didn't have Van Arnhem as surname in the > Netherlands. I've seen that several times in records here, making > research sometimes troublesome. > Maybe Jan Dirks didn't (or even didn't want to) use his surname Van > Arnhem during his trip to the States, but started using it again on a > later date. A reason that his name wasn't used can be that he was indeed > a bastard descendant of the noble family van Arnhem. His father then > would have been dat Dirk Jansz officer or soldier under General Graaf > van Nassau, this is Frederick Hendrick van Nassau, who followed up > Prince Maurits. What I have as proof is that this Maurits had a Jan van > Aernhem as korporaal (officer) in service, who's father Gerhard van > Arnhem was stalmeester (stable master) of Maurits. So the line can be > Gerhard van Arnhem had a son Jan, who had a son Dirk Jansz, who had a > son Jan Dirksz, the one who emigrated to Amerika. All Van Arnhems here > have Van Arnhem as surname, not as city where the come from. If this is > the case, there was no reason to use his surname, a patronym could be > sufficient. > > I do not have any info about the Jan Dirksz from Bremen. In several > records I see that harbors are mentioned - not to be confused with > surnames - so it looks like another Jan Dircksz leaving from Bremen. > Both names Jan en Dirk were very common in the Netherlands, leaving us > with thousands of possibilities as long as we do not have the surname or > other relevant information. > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > Op 10-10-2010 23:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:37:59 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP134705BA14EFEDCFC65BCD5AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. > And >> is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and Dirckszen >> before settleing on Van Arnhem. >> >> Sorry, won't work. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>> where >>> one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch >>> parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz >>> van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) >>> who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter >>> Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van >>> Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise >>> all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There >>> was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Pim van Arnhem >>> >>> >>> Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >>>> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>>> where >>>> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >>>> kids >>>> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >>>> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >>>> pregnancy.) >>>> >>>> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >>>> death. >>>> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks >>>> and >>>> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >>>> appears >>>> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record > other >>>> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >>>> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >>>> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >>>> >>>> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a > good >>>> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >>>> pretty >>>> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >>>> >>>> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents >>>> a >>>> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >>>> was, >>>> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >>>> fact, >>>> independent of each other. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>>>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>>>> not >>>>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>>>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>>>> 31, >>>>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>>>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>>>> LOL. >>>>> Thanks again! >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>>>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>>>> Barentje >>>>> Jans >>>>> - page 76 >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>>>> Willemszen, >>>>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>>>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>>>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>>>> Ariaentie >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>>>> Agniet >>>>> Lodovyckszen >>>>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan > Adamszen >>>>> - page 78 >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>>>> Marie Dopzen >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>>>> Verleth, >>>>> El >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but > ships >>>>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>>>> intact. >>>>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>>>> paying >>>>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have > been >>>>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India > Co. >>>>> in >>>>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>>>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>>>> not >>>>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>>>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>>>> but >>>>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>>>> >>>>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>>>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. > The >>>>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>>>> were >>>>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>>>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>>>> that >>>>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>>>> married >>>>> to >>>>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>>>> apprentishship >>>>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for > record >>>>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>>>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>>>> with >>>>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>>>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>>>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>>>> she >>>>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter > bruid: >>>>> J" >>>>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>>>> >>>>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. > The >>>>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>>>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with > Sara >>>>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>>>> other >>>>>> staff. >>>>>> >>>>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait >>>>>> to >>>>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>>>> If >>>>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>>>> married >>>>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was > born. >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>>>> Belief: NDG >>>>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>>>> Previous partner groom: >>>>>> Previous partner bride >>>>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to > use >>>>>> the >>>>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>>>> flip-flopping >>>>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father > could >>>>>> have >>>>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>>>> have >>>>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>>>> during) >>>>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>>>> speculating over). >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages > won't >>>>>> work >>>>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>>>> obviously >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> different person. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>>>> wise >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>>>> our >>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>>>> children? >>>>>>>> Did >>>>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to > Sara >>>>>>>> Teunis >>>>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >>>> over >>>> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >>>> promulgated >>>> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where >>>> to >>>> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >>>> >>>> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >>>> of >>>> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. > It's >>>> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >>>> >>>> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in >>>> the >>>> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >>>> they >>>> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" > and >>>> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >>>> guarantee >>>> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >>>> >>>> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >>>> godparents >>>> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >>>> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >>>> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >>>> because >>>> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >>>> >>>> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >>>> that >>>> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >>>> fact, >>>> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >>>> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >>>> after >>>> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest > of >>>> his known life. >>>> >>>> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >>>> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing > so >>>> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >>>> More >>>> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >>>> the >>>> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >>>> >>>> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >>>> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >>>> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >>>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> >>>> >>>>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>>>> have >>>>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>>>> the >>>>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have > found >>>>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>>>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>>>> officer >>>>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>>>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>>>> Prince >>>>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>>>> fact? >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Summary:* >>>>> >>>>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sex: >>>>> >>>>> Male >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Father: >>>>> >>>>> Jan Derryckssen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mother: >>>>> >>>>> Gerriken Beecken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Birth: >>>>> >>>>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 33 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Death: >>>>> >>>>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Military Service: >>>>> >>>>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Shared Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> *Magdalena Jans* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marriage: >>>>> >>>>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 1692 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Children: >>>>> >>>>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Notes:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>>>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the > passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability > reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>> want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on > an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>> posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant > "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for > "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>>> their >>>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>>> and >>>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>>> the >>>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>>> >>>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>>> probably >>>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>>> (largely >>>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>>> another >>>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>>> >>>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>>> the >>>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers > repeatedly. >>>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>>> >>>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about > 12 >>>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >>>> on >>>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>>> when >>>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>>> >>>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan > Dircks >>>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for > Sarah. >>>> --pete >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Pete: >>>>> >>>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>>> passenger's >>>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>>> these >>>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>>> have >>>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>>> reasons >>>>> at >>>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>>> want >>>>> and need to know. >>>>> >>>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always > enjoy >>>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with > us. >>>>> Do >>>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have > been >>>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>>> aren't >>>>> >>>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>>> before sailing. >>>>> >>>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>>> flier >>>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to > avoid >>>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>>> an >>>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>>> the >>>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>>> posted >>>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>>> >>>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>>> "never-married." >>>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>>> what >>>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>>> "spinster" >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>>> body of the >>>> email with no additional text. >>>> >>>> >>>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >>>> ***************************************** >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:59:24 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP14345E189A7411707300E51AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. >> >> Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have > been >> married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different > records >> on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into >> which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived >> somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records >> anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any > likely >> variation named Thomas. >> >> There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van >> Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the >> generations of the family. >> >> There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her > name >> does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died >> young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or > mistranscribed. >> And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of > which >> head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine > got >> mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake >> considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the time. >> (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >> Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you >> about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even >> formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are >> causing my (current) confusion. >> >> 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, >> jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr >> & wife Helena Jansen >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan >> Ekkeson sr& wife Apalonia >> >> Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? >> >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their >>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>> and >>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of > the >>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>> >>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>> probably >>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>> (largely >>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>> >>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>> the >>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>> >>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated > on >>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>> when >>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>> >>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the > passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability > reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would > want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were > posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant > "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 140 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 144 > ***************************************** > >
Since Barbara Jeffries work is largely inaccessible today (what a tragedy for our research!), I thought I'd send this along. Just learned today that if you go to her old site still available at http://web.archive.org/web/20050210100011/http://members.tripod.com/JeffriesB/ and click on a link, you'll get an error message. Go to the address bar on that error page and remove the tilda before Jeffries and, *voila*!, you can still access the page! Wonderful! Won't be available forever though since things disappear all the time. NEW SALEM REFORMED CHURCH of New Scotland, Albany Co. Transcribed and compiled by Barbara Jeffries MARRIAGES 1794 7 Jan - Robert HURST & Maria ACHENBAG 16 Jul - Chronomus CRASS & Geertruy NEMAYER 20 Jul - Robert FREEMAN & Jane MAN 27 Jul - Jacob ACHENBAGH & Maria TURK 9 Aug - Derrick HEEMSTRATER, widower & Elisabeth BOUGHT 21 Sep - James MCFRIE (?) & Elisabeth SLINGERLANDS 28 Sep - Noah Simon WOOD & Annah SHAVER 21 Oct - Egbert DAVIS & Maria COLE 1795 1 Jan - David BOGARDUS & Wyntje OUDERKERK 4 Jan - Nicholas VAN VALKENBURGH & Neeltje MONKE (?) 11 Jan - Caleb SMITH & Magdalene HEMENS 15 Jan - Peter VAN VLEEK & Geesje VAN PATTEN 15 Apr - Thomas ALEXANDER & Sarah VAN LEUVEN 26 Apr - Stephen BOGERT & Catharine GARRITSON 4 Jun - Coonradt CRUNSY (?) & Maria LIVINGSTINE 16 Jun - David SWART & Maria SWART 15 Jun - Michel VAN SCHAIK & Maria TRUAX 1796 3 Feb - Ryker REDLY & Elisabeth SCHUT 19 Feb - Abraham CORREL & Maria MILLER 29 Feb - Storm VAN DERSEE - Margritha HOOGTEELING 4 Mar - Nehemiah CHEESBROOK & Polly CHAMBINIESE (?) 13 Mar - William REDLY & Elisabeth PANBURN 14 Mar - Peter BRATT, widower & Annatje SHUTTER, widow 24 Mar - John REMSY & Nansy CASS 7 Jun - George TSEMMER (?) & Margritha SADLEMAYER 22 Jul - Egbert VAN ZANT & Rachel SEGRUISTS 5 Oct - Maliaci WHIPPLE & Precilla BROWN 5 Oct - James OBRUNT (?) &Deborah PENNY 12 Oct - Christian PUTMYAN (?) & Cathalyntje PEEK ? - Bastian SWART & Anna OX ? - Isaaac DEVOE & Rachael PIER ? - Christian TRUAX & Catharine VAN VALKENBURGH ? - John BROOKS & Lena VAN VALKENBURGH ? - John VAN DEWILGAN & Maria VAN VALKENBURGH ? - Cornelius WALDOROM & Hester VAN AERNUM ? - Christopher DEVOE & Meriele ___________ ? - Marcus BROWN & Geertruy LIVINGSTINE ? - Jonathan HOGTEELING & Elisabeth VAN NETTE ? - Abraham BERTLET & _______ FOOLER ? - Lenies/Lewes/Levies WINANS & Caty FRIEDENDALL , widow 8 Dec - Wheeler KNAPP & Elisabeth MCGEE 11 Dec - Peter WAGENER & Tabetha WALKER 11 Dec - John BLOOMENDALL, widower & Cornelia VROOMAN 12 Dec - Guilbert BEBEE & Mary TRUAX 26 Dec - David LITTLE & Catharine TSIMMER (?) 26 Dec - Titus FISH & Pheby BROWN 31 Dec - Henry VAN DERSEE & Maria VAN DEUSEN 1797 3 Jan - Michael SPARBEEK & Margritta TINGRU (?) 15 Jan - Henry SCHOONMAKER & Geesje GROOT 25 Jan - Peter ACHENBAGH, widower & Eva VOSBURG, widow of Jacob 11 Feb - Alexander MC CONGHTERY & Mary MC FRIE 11 Feb - Andrew GREU (?) & Maria TSIMMER (?) 23 Feb - Nicholas VAN PETTEN & Debby HALL 03 Mar - Andrew VAN WIE & Susannah ALLEN 08 Mar - Peter VEEDER, Esq. & Maria MYNDERSEN 19 Mar - Martynus CRANEL, widower & Maria MURRY, widow 21 Mar - Gerrit SLINGERLAND & Elisabeth ROSA 05 Apr - Michael FREDERICKS & Annatje LEVINGSTINE 16 Apr - Ludwick SAGER & Anna BREET 07 May - John UPHAM & Margretha BURNSIDE 07 May - David MAN & Polly MYNDERSON 07 May - Jacob STYNER & Peggy HELLICAS 26 May - Jacobus (James) DE CLERK, widower & Catharine HOPPER, widow 27 Jun - Jacobus ( James) HELLEN & Apelony WEEVER 28 Jun - Peter LIVINGSTINE , widower & Eva FREDRIKS 29 Jun - Staats SEGER, widower & Hannah BAGLEY BIRTHS 1786 02 Jan - Sophia to John FREEMAN & Rebecka VYNE 24 Mar - Trueman to Parmenes ADAMS & Cloe NEARING 13 May - David to John OLIVER & Clara SYBEL 22 Jun - Annatje to Isaac FREYER & Catharine RALJE 01 Jul - Abraham to Jonas & Evah LARAWAY 13 Sep - James to James ROSE & Margaret MILL 25 Apr - John to Helmas MERKLE & Agnes OOSTRUM 02 Sep - Saartje to Aarent VAN PATTEN & Engeltje LA GRANGE 08 Aug - Johannes Haverle to Jacob LARAWAY & Elizabeth MURRY 14 Sep - Christofel to Jochem VAN VALKENBURG & Catharina VOSBURGH 12 Oct - Frederick to Petrus WURMER & Infamma BURGER 06 Dec - Engaltje to Hendrik SWARTS & Margaret OX 1787 29 Jan - Catharina to Carel SHAVER & Celia RADLY (no date) - Johannes to Richard WARD & Margarieta SKETTARLY 23 Mar - Elizabeth to Johannes VAN VALKENBURG & Maria WARD 09 May - Grietje to Peter ALJE & Neeltje SIBERT 27 Apr - Martinus to Jacob SIBERT & Martha RADLEY 24 Mar - Maria Elizabeth to Petrus VAN PETTEN & Annatje EKER 30 Apr - Catharina to Jacob MANS & Ledia AUSEN (?) 25 Mar - Lusanna to Johannes MARTIN & Maria FRELEIGH 04 Apr - Catharina to Frederick GLEYGMAN & Maria QUANT 09 May - Hugh to John CAMPBEL & Isabell McDONALD 13 Jun - Helena to Isaac VAN AARNEM & Catharina VAN WIE 27 May - Elizabeth to Johannes VAN ARNAM & Jannetje VAN LOON 02 Jun - Jenny to William DAVIS & Jannetje RALJE 16 Jun - Maria to Robert SEVER & Catharina SNYDER 21 Jun - Catharina to Frederick QUANTA & Marytje ZEEZER 13 Jul - Catharina to Willem VAN ARNEM & Lena WEMPLE 24 Jul - Lusanna to John FISHER & Molly SHEEL 17 Aug - Annatje to Isaac QUACKENBOS & Catharina BANKER 11 Aug - Annatje to Johannes SIVERSON & Maria WIERMER 26 Oct - Sarah to Barent MEYNDESON & Jannetje VAN VRANKEN 16 Oct - Sophia to Peter ACHENBAGH & Anna LITTLE 27 Sep - Annatje to Alexander MCCLOED & Evah WEARLY 06 Sep - Martha to Willem HAEMSTROAT & Martha OLIVER 18 Oct - Grietje to Johannes LEENHERT & Grietje LEENHERT 09 Sep - Jacob to Nichilaas VROOMAN & Maria SWITS 26 Oct - John to Petrus OOSTERHOUT & Elizabeth VAN WAGENER 18 Oct - Jacob to Willem FOREST & Beletje FOREST 27 Dec - Johannes to Nicholas CONTRIMAN & Annatje BURGER 26 Nov - Maria to Jacob LARAWAY & Elizabeth MURRY 06 Dec - Pieter to John WAGENAER & Elizabeth MAYAR 22 Nov - Mary to Jacob TRUEX & Mary ARCHER 22 Dec - Magdal to Peter OUDERKERK & Jannetje WINNE 10 Dec - Philip to John VINE & Elizabeth BALL __Dec - Jacobus to Dennies RALJE & Annatje VAN PETTEN 10 Sep - Henry to Solomon SISKO & Maria FREEMAN 22 Oct - Coenraat to Coenraat HAFF (?) & Gerritje DEVOE 16 Dec - Catharina to William GIBBS & Elizabeth LORING 24 Dec - Michael to James TAYLOR & Jane BRUCE 1788 01 Mar - Jacob to Thomas & Leah COOPER 24 Feb - Sarah to George SAYRE & Catharina TERWILLEGER 09 Jan - Direk to Israel WALKERS & jane SCHISM 02 Feb - Jacob to John CLOET & lena QUACKENBOS 15 Feb - Philip to Martinus SYBER & Maria BELL 15 Feb - Elizabeth to Jesajas MINKLAER & Rachael WHITIKER 24 Feb - Sarah to Willem WARD & Elizabeth WAGENAAR 21 Apr - John to Benjamin WARD & Annatje BRADT 04 Apr - Margarietje to Samuel COWENHONE & Sarah VAN PETTEN 02 May - Adam to Marenus BLESSING & Margariet SYBEL 15 apr - Jacob to Levi VAN AAKEN & Elizabeth TERPENNING 10 Jun - David to Jonas & Eva LARAWAY 29 Sep - Lawrence to Johannes SCHOOLCRAFT & Maria AUAX __Aug - Neeltje to Johannes EKER & Derichje VROOMAN 07 Aug - Matthew to Hendrick VOSBURG & Elsjie VAN VALKENBURGH 15 Jun - Maragrita to John OLIVER & Clara SYBEL 20 Aug - Solomon to Hendrickus VAN AKEN & Maria TEERPENNING 29 Aug - Isaac to Jacob MANS & Lydia AUREN 07 Dec - Neeltje to John FREEMAN & Rebecka VINE 02 Dec - Maria to Vincent SPRINGER & Sarah HOWE
I got through directly, although I had to renew the attempt when it claimed it couldn't connect. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Schwenn" <schwel@comcast.net> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:11 PM Subject: [VANNORMAN] New Salem Reformed Church of New Scotland, Albany Co., NY: see Aernum, Aarnem, Arnam > Since Barbara Jeffries work is largely inaccessible today (what a tragedy > for our research!), I thought I'd send this along. > Just learned today that if you go to her old site still available at > http://web.archive.org/web/20050210100011/http://members.tripod.com/JeffriesB/ > and click on a link, you'll get an error message. Go to the address bar on > that error page and remove the tilda before Jeffries and, *voila*!, you > can > still access the page! Wonderful! Won't be available forever though since > things disappear all the time. > NEW SALEM REFORMED CHURCH > of > New Scotland, Albany Co. > > Transcribed and compiled > by > Barbara Jeffries > > > > MARRIAGES > > 1794 > > 7 Jan - Robert HURST & Maria ACHENBAG > 16 Jul - Chronomus CRASS & Geertruy NEMAYER > 20 Jul - Robert FREEMAN & Jane MAN > 27 Jul - Jacob ACHENBAGH & Maria TURK > 9 Aug - Derrick HEEMSTRATER, widower & Elisabeth BOUGHT > 21 Sep - James MCFRIE (?) & Elisabeth SLINGERLANDS > 28 Sep - Noah Simon WOOD & Annah SHAVER > 21 Oct - Egbert DAVIS & Maria COLE > > 1795 > > 1 Jan - David BOGARDUS & Wyntje OUDERKERK > 4 Jan - Nicholas VAN VALKENBURGH & Neeltje MONKE (?) > 11 Jan - Caleb SMITH & Magdalene HEMENS > 15 Jan - Peter VAN VLEEK & Geesje VAN PATTEN > 15 Apr - Thomas ALEXANDER & Sarah VAN LEUVEN > 26 Apr - Stephen BOGERT & Catharine GARRITSON > 4 Jun - Coonradt CRUNSY (?) & Maria LIVINGSTINE > 16 Jun - David SWART & Maria SWART > 15 Jun - Michel VAN SCHAIK & Maria TRUAX > > 1796 > > 3 Feb - Ryker REDLY & Elisabeth SCHUT > 19 Feb - Abraham CORREL & Maria MILLER > 29 Feb - Storm VAN DERSEE - Margritha HOOGTEELING > 4 Mar - Nehemiah CHEESBROOK & Polly CHAMBINIESE (?) > 13 Mar - William REDLY & Elisabeth PANBURN > 14 Mar - Peter BRATT, widower & Annatje SHUTTER, widow > 24 Mar - John REMSY & Nansy CASS > 7 Jun - George TSEMMER (?) & Margritha SADLEMAYER > 22 Jul - Egbert VAN ZANT & Rachel SEGRUISTS > 5 Oct - Maliaci WHIPPLE & Precilla BROWN > 5 Oct - James OBRUNT (?) &Deborah PENNY > 12 Oct - Christian PUTMYAN (?) & Cathalyntje PEEK > ? - Bastian SWART & Anna OX > ? - Isaaac DEVOE & Rachael PIER > ? - Christian TRUAX & Catharine VAN VALKENBURGH > ? - John BROOKS & Lena VAN VALKENBURGH > ? - John VAN DEWILGAN & Maria VAN VALKENBURGH > ? - Cornelius WALDOROM & Hester VAN AERNUM > ? - Christopher DEVOE & Meriele ___________ > ? - Marcus BROWN & Geertruy LIVINGSTINE > ? - Jonathan HOGTEELING & Elisabeth VAN NETTE > ? - Abraham BERTLET & _______ FOOLER > ? - Lenies/Lewes/Levies WINANS & Caty FRIEDENDALL , widow > 8 Dec - Wheeler KNAPP & Elisabeth MCGEE > 11 Dec - Peter WAGENER & Tabetha WALKER > 11 Dec - John BLOOMENDALL, widower & Cornelia VROOMAN > 12 Dec - Guilbert BEBEE & Mary TRUAX > 26 Dec - David LITTLE & Catharine TSIMMER (?) > 26 Dec - Titus FISH & Pheby BROWN > 31 Dec - Henry VAN DERSEE & Maria VAN DEUSEN > > 1797 > > 3 Jan - Michael SPARBEEK & Margritta TINGRU (?) > 15 Jan - Henry SCHOONMAKER & Geesje GROOT > 25 Jan - Peter ACHENBAGH, widower & Eva VOSBURG, widow of Jacob > 11 Feb - Alexander MC CONGHTERY & Mary MC FRIE > 11 Feb - Andrew GREU (?) & Maria TSIMMER (?) > 23 Feb - Nicholas VAN PETTEN & Debby HALL > 03 Mar - Andrew VAN WIE & Susannah ALLEN > 08 Mar - Peter VEEDER, Esq. & Maria MYNDERSEN > 19 Mar - Martynus CRANEL, widower & Maria MURRY, widow > 21 Mar - Gerrit SLINGERLAND & Elisabeth ROSA > 05 Apr - Michael FREDERICKS & Annatje LEVINGSTINE > 16 Apr - Ludwick SAGER & Anna BREET > 07 May - John UPHAM & Margretha BURNSIDE > 07 May - David MAN & Polly MYNDERSON > 07 May - Jacob STYNER & Peggy HELLICAS > 26 May - Jacobus (James) DE CLERK, widower & Catharine HOPPER, widow > 27 Jun - Jacobus ( James) HELLEN & Apelony WEEVER > 28 Jun - Peter LIVINGSTINE , widower & Eva FREDRIKS > 29 Jun - Staats SEGER, widower & Hannah BAGLEY > > > BIRTHS > > 1786 > > 02 Jan - Sophia to John FREEMAN & Rebecka VYNE > 24 Mar - Trueman to Parmenes ADAMS & Cloe NEARING > 13 May - David to John OLIVER & Clara SYBEL > 22 Jun - Annatje to Isaac FREYER & Catharine RALJE > 01 Jul - Abraham to Jonas & Evah LARAWAY > 13 Sep - James to James ROSE & Margaret MILL > 25 Apr - John to Helmas MERKLE & Agnes OOSTRUM > 02 Sep - Saartje to Aarent VAN PATTEN & Engeltje LA GRANGE > 08 Aug - Johannes Haverle to Jacob LARAWAY & Elizabeth MURRY > 14 Sep - Christofel to Jochem VAN VALKENBURG & Catharina VOSBURGH > 12 Oct - Frederick to Petrus WURMER & Infamma BURGER > 06 Dec - Engaltje to Hendrik SWARTS & Margaret OX > > 1787 > > 29 Jan - Catharina to Carel SHAVER & Celia RADLY > (no date) - Johannes to Richard WARD & Margarieta SKETTARLY > 23 Mar - Elizabeth to Johannes VAN VALKENBURG & Maria WARD > 09 May - Grietje to Peter ALJE & Neeltje SIBERT > 27 Apr - Martinus to Jacob SIBERT & Martha RADLEY > 24 Mar - Maria Elizabeth to Petrus VAN PETTEN & Annatje EKER > 30 Apr - Catharina to Jacob MANS & Ledia AUSEN (?) > 25 Mar - Lusanna to Johannes MARTIN & Maria FRELEIGH > 04 Apr - Catharina to Frederick GLEYGMAN & Maria QUANT > 09 May - Hugh to John CAMPBEL & Isabell McDONALD > 13 Jun - Helena to Isaac VAN AARNEM & Catharina VAN WIE > 27 May - Elizabeth to Johannes VAN ARNAM & Jannetje VAN LOON > 02 Jun - Jenny to William DAVIS & Jannetje RALJE > 16 Jun - Maria to Robert SEVER & Catharina SNYDER > 21 Jun - Catharina to Frederick QUANTA & Marytje ZEEZER > 13 Jul - Catharina to Willem VAN ARNEM & Lena WEMPLE > 24 Jul - Lusanna to John FISHER & Molly SHEEL > 17 Aug - Annatje to Isaac QUACKENBOS & Catharina BANKER > 11 Aug - Annatje to Johannes SIVERSON & Maria WIERMER > 26 Oct - Sarah to Barent MEYNDESON & Jannetje VAN VRANKEN > 16 Oct - Sophia to Peter ACHENBAGH & Anna LITTLE > 27 Sep - Annatje to Alexander MCCLOED & Evah WEARLY > 06 Sep - Martha to Willem HAEMSTROAT & Martha OLIVER > 18 Oct - Grietje to Johannes LEENHERT & Grietje LEENHERT > 09 Sep - Jacob to Nichilaas VROOMAN & Maria SWITS > 26 Oct - John to Petrus OOSTERHOUT & Elizabeth VAN WAGENER > 18 Oct - Jacob to Willem FOREST & Beletje FOREST > 27 Dec - Johannes to Nicholas CONTRIMAN & Annatje BURGER > 26 Nov - Maria to Jacob LARAWAY & Elizabeth MURRY > 06 Dec - Pieter to John WAGENAER & Elizabeth MAYAR > 22 Nov - Mary to Jacob TRUEX & Mary ARCHER > 22 Dec - Magdal to Peter OUDERKERK & Jannetje WINNE > 10 Dec - Philip to John VINE & Elizabeth BALL > __Dec - Jacobus to Dennies RALJE & Annatje VAN PETTEN > 10 Sep - Henry to Solomon SISKO & Maria FREEMAN > 22 Oct - Coenraat to Coenraat HAFF (?) & Gerritje DEVOE > 16 Dec - Catharina to William GIBBS & Elizabeth LORING > 24 Dec - Michael to James TAYLOR & Jane BRUCE > 1788 > 01 Mar - Jacob to Thomas & Leah COOPER > 24 Feb - Sarah to George SAYRE & Catharina TERWILLEGER > 09 Jan - Direk to Israel WALKERS & jane SCHISM > 02 Feb - Jacob to John CLOET & lena QUACKENBOS > 15 Feb - Philip to Martinus SYBER & Maria BELL > 15 Feb - Elizabeth to Jesajas MINKLAER & Rachael WHITIKER > 24 Feb - Sarah to Willem WARD & Elizabeth WAGENAAR > 21 Apr - John to Benjamin WARD & Annatje BRADT > 04 Apr - Margarietje to Samuel COWENHONE & Sarah VAN PETTEN > 02 May - Adam to Marenus BLESSING & Margariet SYBEL > 15 apr - Jacob to Levi VAN AAKEN & Elizabeth TERPENNING > 10 Jun - David to Jonas & Eva LARAWAY > 29 Sep - Lawrence to Johannes SCHOOLCRAFT & Maria AUAX > __Aug - Neeltje to Johannes EKER & Derichje VROOMAN > 07 Aug - Matthew to Hendrick VOSBURG & Elsjie VAN VALKENBURGH > 15 Jun - Maragrita to John OLIVER & Clara SYBEL > 20 Aug - Solomon to Hendrickus VAN AKEN & Maria TEERPENNING > 29 Aug - Isaac to Jacob MANS & Lydia AUREN > 07 Dec - Neeltje to John FREEMAN & Rebecka VINE > 02 Dec - Maria to Vincent SPRINGER & Sarah HOWE > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
http://www.learnwebskills.com/patriot/countyhistories3.htm#vt
Hi Pete, There was a lot of name-changing, mis-writing and experimenting with both patronyms and surnames in those day's in the Netherlands too. So that's no proof that Jan Dircks didn't have Van Arnhem as surname in the Netherlands. I've seen that several times in records here, making research sometimes troublesome. Maybe Jan Dirks didn't (or even didn't want to) use his surname Van Arnhem during his trip to the States, but started using it again on a later date. A reason that his name wasn't used can be that he was indeed a bastard descendant of the noble family van Arnhem. His father then would have been dat Dirk Jansz officer or soldier under General Graaf van Nassau, this is Frederick Hendrick van Nassau, who followed up Prince Maurits. What I have as proof is that this Maurits had a Jan van Aernhem as korporaal (officer) in service, who's father Gerhard van Arnhem was stalmeester (stable master) of Maurits. So the line can be Gerhard van Arnhem had a son Jan, who had a son Dirk Jansz, who had a son Jan Dirksz, the one who emigrated to Amerika. All Van Arnhems here have Van Arnhem as surname, not as city where the come from. If this is the case, there was no reason to use his surname, a patronym could be sufficient. I do not have any info about the Jan Dirksz from Bremen. In several records I see that harbors are mentioned - not to be confused with surnames - so it looks like another Jan Dircksz leaving from Bremen. Both names Jan en Dirk were very common in the Netherlands, leaving us with thousands of possibilities as long as we do not have the surname or other relevant information. Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 10-10-2010 23:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:37:59 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP134705BA14EFEDCFC65BCD5AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. And > is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and Dirckszen > before settleing on Van Arnhem. > > Sorry, won't work. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > >> Hi, >> >> "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >> where >> one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch >> parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz >> van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) >> who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter >> Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van >> Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise >> all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There >> was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! >> >> Kind regards, >> Pim van Arnhem >> >> >> Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >>> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >>> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>> where >>> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >>> kids >>> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >>> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >>> pregnancy.) >>> >>> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >>> death. >>> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks >>> and >>> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >>> appears >>> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other >>> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >>> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >>> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >>> >>> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good >>> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >>> pretty >>> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >>> >>> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents >>> a >>> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >>> was, >>> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >>> fact, >>> independent of each other. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> John, >>>> >>>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>>> not >>>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>>> >>>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>>> 31, >>>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>>> LOL. >>>> Thanks again! >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>>> Barentje >>>> Jans >>>> - page 76 >>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>>> Willemszen, >>>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>>> Ariaentie >>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>>> Agniet >>>> Lodovyckszen >>>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >>>> - page 78 >>>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>>> Marie Dopzen >>>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>>> Verleth, >>>> El >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >>>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>>> intact. >>>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>>> paying >>>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >>>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >>>> in >>>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>>> not >>>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>>> but >>>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>>> >>>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >>>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>>> were >>>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>>> that >>>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>>> married >>>> to >>>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>>> apprentishship >>>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >>>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>>> with >>>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>>> she >>>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >>>> J" >>>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>>> >>>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>>> >>>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >>>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>>> other >>>>> staff. >>>>> >>>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait >>>>> to >>>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>>> If >>>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>>> married >>>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>>> Belief: NDG >>>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>>> Previous partner groom: >>>>> Previous partner bride >>>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>>> would >>>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>>> his >>>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>>>> the >>>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>>> flip-flopping >>>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>>>> have >>>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>>> >>>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>>> have >>>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>>> have >>>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>>> during) >>>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>>> speculating over). >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>>>> work >>>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>>> children >>>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>>> obviously >>>>> a >>>>>>> different person. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>>> wise >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>>> our >>>>> Jan >>>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>>> children? >>>>>>> Did >>>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>>>> Teunis >>>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >>> over >>> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >>> promulgated >>> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where >>> to >>> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >>> >>> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >>> of >>> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >>> Dircks >>> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's >>> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >>> >>> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in >>> the >>> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >>> they >>> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and >>> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >>> guarantee >>> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >>> >>> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >>> godparents >>> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >>> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >>> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >>> because >>> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >>> >>> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >>> that >>> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >>> fact, >>> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >>> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >>> after >>> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of >>> his known life. >>> >>> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >>> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so >>> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >>> More >>> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >>> the >>> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >>> >>> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >>> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >>> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>> >>> >>>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>>> have >>>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>>> the >>>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >>>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>>> officer >>>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>>> Prince >>>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>>> fact? >>>> >>>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>> >>>> >>>> *Individual Summary:* >>>> >>>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sex: >>>> >>>> Male >>>> >>>> >>>> Father: >>>> >>>> Jan Derryckssen >>>> >>>> >>>> Mother: >>>> >>>> Gerriken Beecken >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Individual Facts:* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Birth: >>>> >>>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>> >>>> >>>> Reference ID: >>>> >>>> 33 >>>> >>>> >>>> Death: >>>> >>>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>> >>>> >>>> Military Service: >>>> >>>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Shared Facts:* >>>> >>>> *Magdalena Jans* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marriage: >>>> >>>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>> >>>> >>>> Reference ID: >>>> >>>> 1692 >>>> >>>> >>>> Children: >>>> >>>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Notes:* >>>> >>>> >>>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>>> >>>> >>>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>>> >>>> >>>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>> want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>> posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=original >>> >>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>> their >>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>> and >>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>> the >>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>> >>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>> probably >>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>> (largely >>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>> another >>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>> >>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>> the >>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>> >>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >>> on >>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>> when >>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>> >>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>> passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>> reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>> want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>> an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>> posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>> "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>> "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>> body of the >>> email with no additional text. >>> >>> >>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >>> ***************************************** >>> >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:59:24 -0500 > From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP14345E189A7411707300E51AB520@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. > > Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have been > married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different records > on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into > which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived > somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records > anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any likely > variation named Thomas. > > There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van > Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the > generations of the family. > > There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her name > does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died > young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or mistranscribed. > > And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of which > head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine got > mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake > considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the time. > (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) > > --pete > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > > Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you > about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even > formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are > causing my (current) confusion. > > 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, > jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier > 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr > & wife Helena Jansen > 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan > Ekkeson sr& wife Apalonia > > Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? > > On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their >> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >> and >> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the >> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >> >> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >> probably >> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >> (largely >> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >> >> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >> the >> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >> >> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated on >> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >> when >> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >> >> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 140 > ***************************************** > >
Hi Susan, There is some speculation going around (from one person I have contact with in France and one in Belgium) - but I haven't been able to prove it - that Dirk Jansz was the son of Jan van Aernhem, who was probably a basterd son of Gerhard van Arnhem, born in 1556 in Harderwijk. (In those day's bastards were quite common, and normally they are not taken up in the standard genealogy lines - bringing many research problems with them). He was member of the noble family van Arnhem (you will find this on my website home.xmsnet,nl/pimonline/genealogie and then under the "adellijke tak" and then "overzichtspagina uit meerdere bronnen"). By the way: I have put more posts on this subject a few months ago, but they somehow were not printed in this forum. Very interesting to here from your fathers conversations! I wish indeed like you, that I had listened more to the story's of my grandfather when he was still alive. Kind regards, Pim Op 10-10-2010 22:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:33:34 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<8D26536E8AFA49C09E8F373BAEF434A3@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Pim: > > So good to hear from you again! I too am leaning to the theory that Jan > Dircks parents are Dirk Jansz van Arnhem and Magdaleentjen Jannssen and that > is why I added it to my tree to try to prove it. > > Do you have any thoughts about who Jan Dicksz from Bremen could have been? > I am seeing several familiar names surrounding him. Looking forward to your > input. > > I do remember my father telling me that our Van Orman family is from Arnhem, > The Netherlands and he went to visit the city in 1966 with my Mom. He had > been told quite a bit of family lore from his parents, grandparents, etc > which he did tell a lot of it to me but I was too young to remember the fine > details now. I so wish he had written it all down for us. He was very > proud of his family heritage and over and over discussed the bravery of the > many professional soldiers in the family. > > Susan > -----Original Message----- > From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:38 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Hi, > > "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch > parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz > van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) > who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter > Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van > Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise > all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There > was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! > > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > > Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where >> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward > kids >> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >> pregnancy.) >> >> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant > death. >> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks > and >> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she > appears >> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other >> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >> >> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good >> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been > pretty >> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >> >> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a >> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and > was, >> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, >> independent of each other. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> John, >>> >>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>> >>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>> 31, >>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>> LOL. >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, > Barentje >>> Jans >>> - page 76 >>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>> Ariaentie >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, > Agniet >>> Lodovyckszen >>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >>> - page 78 >>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>> Marie Dopzen >>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes > Verleth, >>> El >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>> intact. >>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as > paying >>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >>> in >>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>> not >>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>> >>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>> were >>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>> that >>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >>> to >>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>> apprentishship >>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today > with >>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>> she >>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >>> J" >>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>> >>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>> >>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>> other >>>> staff. >>>> >>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait > to >>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? > If >>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>> married >>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>> Belief: NDG >>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>> Previous partner groom: >>>> Previous partner bride >>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>> would >>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>> his >>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>>> the >>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>> flip-flopping >>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>>> have >>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>> >>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>> >>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>> have >>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>> have >>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>> during) >>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>> speculating over). >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>>> work >>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>> children >>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>> obviously >>>> a >>>>>> different person. >>>>>> >>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>> wise >>>>>> the >>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>> >>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>>> Did >>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>>> Teunis >>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>> >>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all > over >> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated >> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where > to >> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >> >> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of >> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan > Dircks >> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's >> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >> >> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in > the >> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died > they >> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and >> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee >> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >> >> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as > godparents >> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks > because >> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >> >> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man > that >> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, >> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after >> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of >> his known life. >> >> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so >> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More >> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the >> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >> >> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> >> >>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I > have >>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>> officer >>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>> Prince >>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>> fact? >>> >>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> *Individual Summary:* >>> >>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sex: >>> >>> Male >>> >>> >>> Father: >>> >>> Jan Derryckssen >>> >>> >>> Mother: >>> >>> Gerriken Beecken >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Individual Facts:* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Birth: >>> >>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 33 >>> >>> >>> Death: >>> >>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Military Service: >>> >>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Shared Facts:* >>> >>> *Magdalena Jans* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Marriage: >>> >>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 1692 >>> >>> >>> Children: >>> >>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> *Notes:* >>> >>> >>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>> >>> >>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>> >>> >>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because > these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain > have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons > at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. > Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet > aren't >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a > flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for > the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's > what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" > in >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at > their >> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists > and >> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the >> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >> >> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner > probably >> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability > (largely >> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >> >> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and > the >> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >> >> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated > on >> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is > when >> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >> >> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would > want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were > posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:59:07 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<9FDD75DE2F014877B3C1C461960C1D2F@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > One piece of info my Dad (Frederick Harold Van Orman III) told me is that > his 5th great grandfather Issac van Arnhem (Aernam); bapt. 4 May 1704; > Revolutionary soldier; 27 Jan 1777 was one of the original signers of the > "Oath of Secrecy", for Committee of Correspondence. > > He also told me that his Van Orman side of the family arrived in the New > World about 20 years after the Mayflower. He said that the Van Orman's > married several direct Mayflower descendents which I have been able to track > through Hatch, Paddock, Cornell and a few other lines in my pedigree. > > One other bit of family lore he passed on to me is that the Van Orman > pedigree carries Viking and Norman blood. Not sure what that means > actually. > > My brother took a Y DNA test confirming that we descend from what is > believed to be the early NY VO line. > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:34 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan > Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > > Pim: > > So good to hear from you again! I too am leaning to the theory that Jan > Dircks parents are Dirk Jansz van Arnhem and Magdaleentjen Jannssen and that > is why I added it to my tree to try to prove it. > > Do you have any thoughts about who Jan Dicksz from Bremen could have been? > I am seeing several familiar names surrounding him. Looking forward to your > input. > > I do remember my father telling me that our Van Orman family is from Arnhem, > The Netherlands and he went to visit the city in 1966 with my Mom. He had > been told quite a bit of family lore from his parents, grandparents, etc > which he did tell a lot of it to me but I was too young to remember the fine > details now. I so wish he had written it all down for us. He was very > proud of his family heritage and over and over discussed the bravery of the > many professional soldiers in the family. > > Susan > -----Original Message----- > From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:38 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) > > Hi, > > "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where > one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch > parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz > van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) > who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter > Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van > Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise > all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There > was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! > > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > > Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena where >> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward > kids >> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >> pregnancy.) >> >> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant > death. >> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks > and >> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she > appears >> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record other >> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >> >> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a good >> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been > pretty >> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >> >> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents a >> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and > was, >> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in fact, >> independent of each other. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> John, >>> >>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did not >>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>> >>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>> 31, >>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>> LOL. >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, > Barentje >>> Jans >>> - page 76 >>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert Willemszen, >>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>> Ariaentie >>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, > Agniet >>> Lodovyckszen >>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan Adamszen >>> - page 78 >>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>> Marie Dopzen >>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes > Verleth, >>> El >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but ships >>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>> intact. >>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as > paying >>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have been >>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India Co. >>> in >>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>> not >>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, but >>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>> >>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. The >>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>> were >>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>> that >>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be married >>> to >>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>> apprentishship >>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for record >>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today > with >>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>> she >>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter bruid: >>> J" >>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>> >>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>> >>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. The >>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with Sara >>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>> other >>>> staff. >>>> >>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait > to >>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? > If >>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>> married >>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was born. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>> Belief: NDG >>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>> Previous partner groom: >>>> Previous partner bride >>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>> would >>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>> his >>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to use >>>> the >>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>> flip-flopping >>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father could >>>> have >>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>> >>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>> >>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>> have >>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>> have >>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>> during) >>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>> speculating over). >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages won't >>>> work >>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>> children >>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>> obviously >>>> a >>>>>> different person. >>>>>> >>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>> wise >>>>>> the >>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>> >>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did our >>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children? >>>>>> Did >>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara >>>>>> Teunis >>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>> >>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all > over >> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first promulgated >> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where > to >> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >> >> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots of >> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan > Dircks >> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. It's >> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >> >> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in > the >> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died > they >> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" and >> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a guarantee >> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >> >> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as > godparents >> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks > because >> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >> >> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man > that >> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in fact, >> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York after >> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest of >> his known life. >> >> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing so >> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. More >> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in the >> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >> >> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >> >> >>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I > have >>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the >>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found >>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>> officer >>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>> Prince >>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>> fact? >>> >>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> *Individual Summary:* >>> >>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sex: >>> >>> Male >>> >>> >>> Father: >>> >>> Jan Derryckssen >>> >>> >>> Mother: >>> >>> Gerriken Beecken >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Individual Facts:* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Birth: >>> >>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 33 >>> >>> >>> Death: >>> >>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Military Service: >>> >>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Shared Facts:* >>> >>> *Magdalena Jans* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Marriage: >>> >>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>> >>> >>> Reference ID: >>> >>> 1692 >>> >>> >>> Children: >>> >>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>> >>> >>> >>> *Notes:* >>> >>> >>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>> >>> >>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>> >>> >>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Pete: >> >> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because > these >> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain > have >> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons > at >> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would want >> and need to know. >> >> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. > Do >> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >> studying the VN family? Thanks >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet > aren't >> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >> before sailing. >> >> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a > flier >> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for > the >> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >> >> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were posted >> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >> >> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's > what >> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" > in >> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at > their >> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists > and >> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of the >> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >> >> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner > probably >> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability > (largely >> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >> >> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and > the >> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >> >> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated > on >> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is > when >> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >> >> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Pete: >>> >>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the passenger's >>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>> these >>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>> have >>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability reasons >>> at >>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would > want >>> and need to know. >>> >>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>> Do >>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>> aren't >>> >>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>> before sailing. >>> >>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>> flier >>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>> the >>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>> >>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were > posted >>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>> >>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant "never-married." >>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>> what >>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>> in >>> >>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 139 > ***************************************** > >
I'll try one more time: Jan Dircks did NOT use the surname Van Arnhem when he and Sara were married in 1664. It's just an entry where he was "from" to help differentiate him from all othe other Jan Dircks's. Otherwise you have to argue Sara's surname was "Van Rotterdam" and later a couple of the kids took the surname "Van Mitspadt Kil". Jesus' surname was not "Of Nazareth". (And despite the apparent similarity, the Nazareth family in New Amsterdam were probably not His descendants.) --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 5:57 AM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > Hi Pim, > > Jan Dirckzen does actually use his surname on his wedding record in 1664: > > 1664 28 Jun; Jan Dirckszen, van Aernhem, Soldaet; Sara Theuniszen, jd van > Rotterdam > > Could you please tell me more about his arrival in New Amsterdam? I have > seen it mention that he arrived in New Amsterdam in January of 1664 as a > soldier but I can't remember the name of the ship. Do you have the > information about his sailing? > > I personally don't think our Sara Theunis is a Van Salee for the reasons > that Pete has referenced previously. I found a note of his today and read > it again and it refutes it very clearly. > > What are your thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sara's first child less > than six months from their date of marriage? > > Is the Van Arnhem family a noble family in The Netherlands? What makes it > so? > > Another reference from the Fonda family tree about Jan Dirckzen surname is > below. > > Thank you! > > Regards, > > Susan > > Hester Janse FONDA, born 1672.2 She married Jan Janse VANARNAM 14 Oct > 1696.12 Jan > Janse VANARNAM was born 4 Jun 1671,13 died 1 Apr 1708.14 > b. Albany, NY; d. Albany, Albany Co., NY; had 6 children from 1697-1708: > Sara, Abraham, > Rebecca, Isaac, Rachael and Jan Dirck; [R044] Innes Getty Collection: > Jellis > Douwse Fonda; > [R034] The Compendium of American Genealogy >> www.fonda.org << > Notes for Jan Janse VANARNAM: b. NY; s/o Jan Dirckzen VanAernam (b1640 in > Holland) > and Sarah Theunis; d. Rensselaerwyck (now Troy), NY; son Isaac VanAernam > (bp. > 4-May-1704) Revolutionary Soldier was signer of original "Oath of Secrecy" > (1/27/1777), > Albany Committee of Correspondence, 115 county-wide signers, promise to > keep > Committee > business secret; [R002] Pearson's First Settlers of the Ancient County of > Albany; [R093] > William Randall (1609-1693) of Scituate and his Descendants with Ancestral > Families; [R034] > The Compendium of American Genealogy >> www.fonda.org << > Notes for Hester Janse FONDA and Jan Janse VANARNAM: m. First Dutch > Reformed > Church, Albany, NY or Rennselaerwyck, NY; [R087c] Genealogical and Family > History of > Northern New York > -----Original Message----- > From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:56 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > > Hi Pete, > There was a lot of name-changing, mis-writing and experimenting with > both patronyms and surnames in those day's in the Netherlands too. So > that's no proof that Jan Dircks didn't have Van Arnhem as surname in the > Netherlands. I've seen that several times in records here, making > research sometimes troublesome. > Maybe Jan Dirks didn't (or even didn't want to) use his surname Van > Arnhem during his trip to the States, but started using it again on a > later date. A reason that his name wasn't used can be that he was indeed > a bastard descendant of the noble family van Arnhem. His father then > would have been dat Dirk Jansz officer or soldier under General Graaf > van Nassau, this is Frederick Hendrick van Nassau, who followed up > Prince Maurits. What I have as proof is that this Maurits had a Jan van > Aernhem as korporaal (officer) in service, who's father Gerhard van > Arnhem was stalmeester (stable master) of Maurits. So the line can be > Gerhard van Arnhem had a son Jan, who had a son Dirk Jansz, who had a > son Jan Dirksz, the one who emigrated to Amerika. All Van Arnhems here > have Van Arnhem as surname, not as city where the come from. If this is > the case, there was no reason to use his surname, a patronym could be > sufficient. > > I do not have any info about the Jan Dirksz from Bremen. In several > records I see that harbors are mentioned - not to be confused with > surnames - so it looks like another Jan Dircksz leaving from Bremen. > Both names Jan en Dirk were very common in the Netherlands, leaving us > with thousands of possibilities as long as we do not have the surname or > other relevant information. > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > Op 10-10-2010 23:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:37:59 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP134705BA14EFEDCFC65BCD5AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. > And >> is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and >> Dirckszen >> before settleing on Van Arnhem. >> >> Sorry, won't work. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>> where >>> one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch >>> parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz >>> van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) >>> who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter >>> Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van >>> Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise >>> all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There >>> was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Pim van Arnhem >>> >>> >>> Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >>>> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>>> where >>>> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >>>> kids >>>> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child >>>> to >>>> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing >>>> another >>>> pregnancy.) >>>> >>>> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >>>> death. >>>> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and >>>> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >>>> appears >>>> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record > other >>>> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >>>> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >>>> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >>>> >>>> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a > good >>>> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >>>> pretty >>>> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >>>> >>>> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena >>>> represents >>>> a >>>> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >>>> was, >>>> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >>>> fact, >>>> independent of each other. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on >>>>> track. >>>>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>>>> not >>>>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>>>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be >>>>> Dec >>>>> 31, >>>>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There >>>>> are >>>>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't >>>>> know, >>>>> LOL. >>>>> Thanks again! >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, >>>>> Christina >>>>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>>>> Barentje >>>>> Jans >>>>> - page 76 >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>>>> Willemszen, >>>>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>>>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>>>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>>>> Ariaentie >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>>>> Agniet >>>>> Lodovyckszen >>>>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan > Adamszen >>>>> - page 78 >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen >>>>> Dirckszen, >>>>> Marie Dopzen >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>>>> Verleth, >>>>> El >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but > ships >>>>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>>>> intact. >>>>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>>>> paying >>>>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have > been >>>>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India > Co. >>>>> in >>>>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>>>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches >>>>> may >>>>> not >>>>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of >>>>> yet. >>>>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>>>> but >>>>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>>>> >>>>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>>>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. > The >>>>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. >>>>> Marriages >>>>> were >>>>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to >>>>> announce >>>>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would >>>>> conjecture >>>>> that >>>>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>>>> married >>>>> to >>>>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>>>> apprentishship >>>>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for > record >>>>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns >>>>> was >>>>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>>>> with >>>>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>>>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>>>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage >>>>> record, >>>>> she >>>>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter > bruid: >>>>> J" >>>>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>>>> >>>>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. > The >>>>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>>>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with > Sara >>>>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger >>>>>> count. >>>>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest >>>>>> like >>>>>> other >>>>>> staff. >>>>>> >>>>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they >>>>>> wait >>>>>> to >>>>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>>>> If >>>>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>>>> married >>>>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a >>>>>> young >>>>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was > born. >>>>>> >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter >>>>>> Teunisz, >>>>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>>>> Belief: NDG >>>>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>>>> Previous partner groom: >>>>>> Previous partner bride >>>>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to > use >>>>>> the >>>>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>>>> flip-flopping >>>>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father > could >>>>>> have >>>>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>>>> have >>>>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>>>> during) >>>>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> speculating over). >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages > won't >>>>>> work >>>>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>>>> obviously >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> different person. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>>>> wise >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>>>> our >>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>>>> children? >>>>>>>> Did >>>>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to > Sara >>>>>>>> Teunis >>>>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>> the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>> the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >>>> over >>>> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >>>> promulgated >>>> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know >>>> where >>>> to >>>> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >>>> >>>> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >>>> of >>>> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. > It's >>>> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >>>> >>>> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for >>>> in >>>> the >>>> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >>>> they >>>> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" > and >>>> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >>>> guarantee >>>> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >>>> >>>> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >>>> godparents >>>> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and >>>> so >>>> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >>>> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >>>> because >>>> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >>>> >>>> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >>>> that >>>> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >>>> fact, >>>> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >>>> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >>>> after >>>> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest > of >>>> his known life. >>>> >>>> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive >>>> for >>>> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing > so >>>> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >>>> More >>>> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >>>> the >>>> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >>>> >>>> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >>>> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >>>> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >>>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> >>>> >>>>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>>>> have >>>>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>>>> the >>>>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have > found >>>>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>>>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>>>> officer >>>>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>>>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>>>> Prince >>>>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant >>>>> error...or >>>>> fact? >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Summary:* >>>>> >>>>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sex: >>>>> >>>>> Male >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Father: >>>>> >>>>> Jan Derryckssen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mother: >>>>> >>>>> Gerriken Beecken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Birth: >>>>> >>>>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 33 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Death: >>>>> >>>>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Military Service: >>>>> >>>>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Shared Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> *Magdalena Jans* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marriage: >>>>> >>>>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 1692 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Children: >>>>> >>>>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Notes:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject >>>>> in >>>>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the > passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability > reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>> want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always >>>> enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with >>>> us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have >>>> been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to >>>> avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on > an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>> posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant > "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for > "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>>> their >>>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial >>>> lists >>>> and >>>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>>> the >>>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>>> >>>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>>> probably >>>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>>> (largely >>>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>>> another >>>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>>> >>>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>>> the >>>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers > repeatedly. >>>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>>> >>>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about > 12 >>>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've >>>> concentrated >>>> on >>>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>>> when >>>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>>> >>>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan > Dircks >>>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) >>>> after >>>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for > Sarah. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Pete: >>>>> >>>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>>> passenger's >>>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>>> these >>>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>>> have >>>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>>> reasons >>>>> at >>>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>>> want >>>>> and need to know. >>>>> >>>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always > enjoy >>>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with > us. >>>>> Do >>>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have > been >>>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>>> aren't >>>>> >>>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>>> before sailing. >>>>> >>>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>>> flier >>>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to > avoid >>>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>>> an >>>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt >>>>> for >>>>> the >>>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>>> posted >>>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) >>>>> the >>>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>>> >>>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>>> "never-married." >>>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>>> what >>>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>>> "spinster" >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>>> body of the >>>> email with no additional text. >>>> >>>> >>>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >>>> ***************************************** >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:59:24 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP14345E189A7411707300E51AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. >> >> Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have > been >> married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different > records >> on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into >> which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived >> somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records >> anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any > likely >> variation named Thomas. >> >> There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van >> Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the >> generations of the family. >> >> There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her > name >> does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died >> young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or > mistranscribed. >> >> And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of > which >> head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine > got >> mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake >> considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the >> time. >> (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >> Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you >> about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even >> formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are >> causing my (current) confusion. >> >> 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, >> jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr >> & wife Helena Jansen >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan >> Ekkeson sr& wife Apalonia >> >> Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? >> >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>> their >>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>> and >>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of > the >>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>> >>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>> probably >>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>> (largely >>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>> another >>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>> >>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>> the >>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers >>> repeatedly. >>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>> >>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about >>> 12 >>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated > on >>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>> when >>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>> >>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan >>> Dircks >>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the > passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability > reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would > want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have >>>> been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>> an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were > posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant > "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>> "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 140 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
Dear Pim-- The issue is burden of proof. You assert a connection. It's not enough to say "there's no proof against it." You need to show something in support of it. Similarity of what may or may not be surnames just isn't enough. I've already demonstrated that there are probably at least three families (including the Van Arnhem/Arnams) in the U.S. whose surnames mutated into "|Van Norman." In other words, just because two people share the Van Norman surname is no proof they share common ancestry. The same may be and probably was true of Van Arnhems 350 years ago. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pim van Arnhem" <wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > Hi Pete, > There was a lot of name-changing, mis-writing and experimenting with > both patronyms and surnames in those day's in the Netherlands too. So > that's no proof that Jan Dircks didn't have Van Arnhem as surname in the > Netherlands. I've seen that several times in records here, making > research sometimes troublesome. > Maybe Jan Dirks didn't (or even didn't want to) use his surname Van > Arnhem during his trip to the States, but started using it again on a > later date. A reason that his name wasn't used can be that he was indeed > a bastard descendant of the noble family van Arnhem. His father then > would have been dat Dirk Jansz officer or soldier under General Graaf > van Nassau, this is Frederick Hendrick van Nassau, who followed up > Prince Maurits. What I have as proof is that this Maurits had a Jan van > Aernhem as korporaal (officer) in service, who's father Gerhard van > Arnhem was stalmeester (stable master) of Maurits. So the line can be > Gerhard van Arnhem had a son Jan, who had a son Dirk Jansz, who had a > son Jan Dirksz, the one who emigrated to Amerika. All Van Arnhems here > have Van Arnhem as surname, not as city where the come from. If this is > the case, there was no reason to use his surname, a patronym could be > sufficient. > > I do not have any info about the Jan Dirksz from Bremen. In several > records I see that harbors are mentioned - not to be confused with > surnames - so it looks like another Jan Dircksz leaving from Bremen. > Both names Jan en Dirk were very common in the Netherlands, leaving us > with thousands of possibilities as long as we do not have the surname or > other relevant information. > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > Op 10-10-2010 23:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:37:59 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP134705BA14EFEDCFC65BCD5AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. >> And >> is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and >> Dirckszen >> before settleing on Van Arnhem. >> >> Sorry, won't work. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>> where >>> one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch >>> parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz >>> van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) >>> who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter >>> Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van >>> Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise >>> all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There >>> was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Pim van Arnhem >>> >>> >>> Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >>>> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>>> where >>>> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >>>> kids >>>> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child >>>> to >>>> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing >>>> another >>>> pregnancy.) >>>> >>>> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >>>> death. >>>> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and >>>> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >>>> appears >>>> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record >>>> other >>>> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >>>> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >>>> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >>>> >>>> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a >>>> good >>>> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >>>> pretty >>>> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >>>> >>>> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena >>>> represents >>>> a >>>> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >>>> was, >>>> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >>>> fact, >>>> independent of each other. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on >>>>> track. >>>>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>>>> not >>>>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>>>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be >>>>> Dec >>>>> 31, >>>>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There >>>>> are >>>>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't >>>>> know, >>>>> LOL. >>>>> Thanks again! >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, >>>>> Christina >>>>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>>>> Barentje >>>>> Jans >>>>> - page 76 >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>>>> Willemszen, >>>>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>>>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>>>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>>>> Ariaentie >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>>>> Agniet >>>>> Lodovyckszen >>>>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan >>>>> Adamszen >>>>> - page 78 >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen >>>>> Dirckszen, >>>>> Marie Dopzen >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>>>> Verleth, >>>>> El >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>> Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but >>>>> ships >>>>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>>>> intact. >>>>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>>>> paying >>>>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have >>>>> been >>>>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India >>>>> Co. >>>>> in >>>>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>>>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches >>>>> may >>>>> not >>>>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of >>>>> yet. >>>>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>>>> but >>>>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>>>> >>>>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>>>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. >>>>> The >>>>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. >>>>> Marriages >>>>> were >>>>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to >>>>> announce >>>>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would >>>>> conjecture >>>>> that >>>>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>>>> married >>>>> to >>>>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>>>> apprentishship >>>>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for >>>>> record >>>>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns >>>>> was >>>>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>>>> with >>>>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>>>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>>>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage >>>>> record, >>>>> she >>>>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter >>>>> bruid: >>>>> J" >>>>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>>>> >>>>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. >>>>> The >>>>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>>>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with >>>>>> Sara >>>>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger >>>>>> count. >>>>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest >>>>>> like >>>>>> other >>>>>> staff. >>>>>> >>>>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they >>>>>> wait >>>>>> to >>>>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>>>> If >>>>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>>>> married >>>>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a >>>>>> young >>>>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was >>>>>> born. >>>>>> >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter >>>>>> Teunisz, >>>>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>>>> Belief: NDG >>>>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>>>> Previous partner groom: >>>>>> Previous partner bride >>>>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to >>>>>>> use >>>>>> the >>>>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>>>> flip-flopping >>>>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father >>>>>>> could >>>>>> have >>>>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>>>> have >>>>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>>>> during) >>>>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> speculating over). >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages >>>>>>>> won't >>>>>> work >>>>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>>>> obviously >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> different person. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>>>> wise >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>>>> our >>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>>>> children? >>>>>>>> Did >>>>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to >>>>>>>> Sara >>>>>>>> Teunis >>>>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>> the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>> the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >>>> over >>>> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >>>> promulgated >>>> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know >>>> where >>>> to >>>> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >>>> >>>> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >>>> of >>>> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. >>>> It's >>>> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >>>> >>>> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for >>>> in >>>> the >>>> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >>>> they >>>> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" >>>> and >>>> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >>>> guarantee >>>> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >>>> >>>> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >>>> godparents >>>> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and >>>> so >>>> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >>>> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >>>> because >>>> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >>>> >>>> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >>>> that >>>> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >>>> fact, >>>> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >>>> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >>>> after >>>> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest >>>> of >>>> his known life. >>>> >>>> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive >>>> for >>>> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing >>>> so >>>> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >>>> More >>>> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >>>> the >>>> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >>>> >>>> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >>>> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >>>> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >>>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> >>>> >>>>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>>>> have >>>>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>>>> the >>>>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have >>>>> found >>>>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>>>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>>>> officer >>>>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>>>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>>>> Prince >>>>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant >>>>> error...or >>>>> fact? >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Summary:* >>>>> >>>>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sex: >>>>> >>>>> Male >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Father: >>>>> >>>>> Jan Derryckssen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mother: >>>>> >>>>> Gerriken Beecken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Birth: >>>>> >>>>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 33 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Death: >>>>> >>>>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Military Service: >>>>> >>>>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Shared Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> *Magdalena Jans* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marriage: >>>>> >>>>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 1692 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Children: >>>>> >>>>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Notes:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject >>>>> in >>>>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>> passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>> reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>> want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always >>>> enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with >>>> us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have >>>> been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to >>>> avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>> an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>> posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>> "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>> "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>>> their >>>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial >>>> lists >>>> and >>>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>>> the >>>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>>> >>>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>>> probably >>>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>>> (largely >>>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>>> another >>>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>>> >>>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>>> the >>>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers >>>> repeatedly. >>>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>>> >>>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about >>>> 12 >>>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've >>>> concentrated >>>> on >>>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>>> when >>>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>>> >>>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) >>>> after >>>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for >>>> Sarah. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Pete: >>>>> >>>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>>> passenger's >>>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>>> these >>>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>>> have >>>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>>> reasons >>>>> at >>>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>>> want >>>>> and need to know. >>>>> >>>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always >>>>> enjoy >>>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with >>>>> us. >>>>> Do >>>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have >>>>> been >>>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>>> aren't >>>>> >>>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>>> before sailing. >>>>> >>>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>>> flier >>>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to >>>>> avoid >>>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>>> an >>>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt >>>>> for >>>>> the >>>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>>> posted >>>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) >>>>> the >>>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>>> >>>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>>> "never-married." >>>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>>> what >>>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>>> "spinster" >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>>> body of the >>>> email with no additional text. >>>> >>>> >>>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >>>> ***************************************** >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:59:24 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP14345E189A7411707300E51AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. >> >> Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have >> been >> married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different >> records >> on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into >> which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived >> somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records >> anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any >> likely >> variation named Thomas. >> >> There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van >> Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the >> generations of the family. >> >> There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her >> name >> does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died >> young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or >> mistranscribed. >> >> And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of >> which >> head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine >> got >> mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake >> considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the >> time. >> (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >> Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you >> about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even >> formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are >> causing my (current) confusion. >> >> 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, >> jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr >> & wife Helena Jansen >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan >> Ekkeson sr& wife Apalonia >> >> Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? >> >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>> their >>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>> and >>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>> the >>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>> >>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>> probably >>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>> (largely >>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>> another >>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>> >>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>> the >>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers >>> repeatedly. >>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>> >>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about >>> 12 >>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >>> on >>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>> when >>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>> >>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan >>> Dircks >>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>> passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>> reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>> want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have >>>> been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>> an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>> posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>> "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>> "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 140 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >