John I was wondering about this entry. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's parentsnames Interesting. No sources though (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH P-0936.html). Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson.

I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but I would think generally they would be found in the probate court records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, > 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this > timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really > don't know how to find them. > > The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same > people in the church documents. > > I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits > together nicely IMO. > > I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > interesting and informative: > 1.     [PDF] > > THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I've got a few minutes. > > Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan > Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, > one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, > just for starters.) > > The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about > Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on > Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and > moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from > the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be > good for everyone to visit. > > However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to > info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it > other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it > existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! > > There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families > > with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this > > is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > determine,however. > > Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah > Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original > settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > >>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >> (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >> so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >> was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >> provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >> and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>> Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>> of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>> long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>> sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>> brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>> research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

John I would love for you to email me anything you find pertinent and take the time to convert so I can save it to my computer and family tree as well. I don't know how to do it and have spent many hours trying but can't seem to understand it at all. Thanks so much for your kind offer. My email address is susan@claggett6.com Regards, Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:06 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals BTW, anyone who would like excerpts from any of these book (or any PDF/JPEGS), I have tools and knowledge to split, merge, and/or convert them. With my personal tree, if a book only has a few pages of interest, I extract those pages and merge them with the title page. Just let me know the source of the book (i.e. Google books or archive.org address) and desired pages. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:00 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > It appears to be wholely derivative, i.e. "brother-in-law" is probably > not based on any more information than what Pete has seen (and isn't > sourced in any case). The accounts of both Sara gossiping and the > missing blanket, though certainly more entertaining, and put into > context, contain nothing more than what's in the court records we > already seen. I haven't found an "original" source for the land > records (or the tax records), but presumably it too is based on the > same records that Pete knows of. Certainly a good resource; but not > sure it really adds new info, except to show the whole picture. > > Also, it actually has a current (2010) printing. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> John I saw that too.  I can't stop reading...but I am so tired!  Here are a >> few more pages to see and be sure to check out the index of names in the >> 620's page range.  Can't wait to see what our other VN family researcher >> buddies think of this Harlem book.  Do you think it was recently added to >> the web? >> >> Susan >> >> Page 329 >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> #v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen&f=false >> >> Page 248 >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> #v=onepage&q=Jan%20The%20Soldier&f=false >> >> Page 593  The Van Bremen family became Van Bramer >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen%20van%20Bremen&f=false >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:16 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> Page 223 gives a better account of Sara's gossiping, and page 294 >> describes the land that Pete mentioned having been leased. >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:40 AM,  <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of >>> "brother-in-law" and the book itself. >>> >>> I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is >>> translated and transcribed "original") records available? >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >> (City >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>>> several pages especially 244. >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >> so >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >> was >>>> >>>> his wife. >>>> >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >> provinces >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the >> Papist." >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks >> and/or >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>>> --------------. >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >> and >>>> >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>>> the last record of them I can find. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> Is this the gossiping case? >>>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>>> (1st paragraph) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>>> on >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>>> ----------- >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in >> trouble, >>>>> again, for gossiping. >>>>> >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know. >>>>> >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>>> >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>>> >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if >> this >>>>>> is our Sara. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>>> >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>>> lists >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged >> to >>>>>> WIC. >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >> Neither >>>>>> in >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>>> qualities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>>> record >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>>> occupation, >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >> of >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>>> possibly >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>>> they >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems >> unlikely. >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>>> Aside >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>>> Sara, >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >> long >>>>>> one >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan >> Dircks >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >> sort >>>>>> of >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >> brother >>>>>> or >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >> research >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>>> Dircks >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --pete >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, 1686. Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this timeframe and location? I have never searched for wills before and really don't know how to find them. The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen seems like it was a known fact. We also see the interaction of these same people in the church documents. I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. It fits together nicely IMO. I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very interesting and informative: 1. [PDF] THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals I've got a few minutes. Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. Calling Jan Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, one he simply jumped to. (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, just for starters.) The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about these old books. First, they can be wrong. In this case the part about Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on Riker's part. That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) remarried and moved to Boston. I worked this out three or four years ago with help from the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be good for everyone to visit. However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to info no longer available. I can't find the will or any reference to it other than this one. Neither can researchers better than I. Apparently it existed once upon a time but now it's gone. Dang! There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. Whether this is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to determine,however. Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem > (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters > was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch > provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks > and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>> Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>> of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>> long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>> sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>> brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>> research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Susan, I'm packing right now to travel coming week to Spain, so at this moment I'll give you a very short answer, hoping to reply more in detail when I return. Good to see that Jan used his surname as soon as his wedding: that supports that Van Arnhem is his surname, and not te place where he came from (Sara is'nt called Sara van Rotterdam to make a comparison!). Then your questions: I have the information that Jan was baptized on Saterday 13 october 1640 in Arnhem [Dutchs Hervormd] and travelled with "Het Gebroken Hart" (Broken Heart) when he came to New York in januari 1664. For the source of this info I have to dig it up later. I haven't done research on Sarah, so probably Pete is right in his argument ... but we still can't be sure building on arguments. There are written already many thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sarah's first child and the date of wedding. I don't know how long a trip was, but probably Sarah was already pregnant (by Jan) before they left te Neterlands. I have many accounts (even of people born in the 20th century) of children being born a few months after de weddingday: the couple being in love haven a sexual relationship before marriage ... nothing new under the sun - especcially not for soldiers. But for this, we should know how long the boat trip was and I don't have that clear right now. There has been a noble Van Arnhem family in the Netherlands as far as we know from around the year 1100 up to 1716 when the last of these noble Van Arnhems died, without leaving children. But, there are several "bastards" from this family. A basterd was not a noble man and most of the time they didn't have any part of the inheritance of their father. This is probably the reason for some of the Van Arnhem family-branches in the Netherlands (in one instance I'm quite sure of it). Thanks for your honest questions and the open mind to research all possibilities. Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 12-10-2010 9:01, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Holland resource (stolen boots) (Susan Claggett) > 2. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > 3. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:18:22 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<7A5B48FA93374597B1B226F7B1FAA5C1@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I love all of this background information Pete. It really adds personality > to our search. > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:57:09 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<0FC16FEA77E7406AB712B28DB834FB22@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:25:30 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<B2D6AC5010D84FF1B6DDCE59A56C9B38@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C > <http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Di > rcksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum= > 1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false> > &pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dircksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi > =book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > > Regards, > > > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > > P.S. I am having trouble getting this to go through to the list. If it > duplicates I apologize. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 148 > ***************************************** > >

Hi Susan, I'm packing right now to travel coming week to Spain, so at this moment I'll give you a very short answer, hoping to reply more in detail when I return. Good to see that Jan used his surname as soon as his wedding: that supports that Van Arnhem is his surname, and not te place where he came from (Sara is'nt called Sara van Rotterdam to make a comparison!). Then your questions: I have the information that Jan was baptized on saterday 13 october 1640 in Arnhem [Dutchs Hervormd] and travelled with "Het Gebroken Hart" (Broken Heart) when he came to New York in januari 1664. For the source of this info I have to dig it up later. I haven't done research on Sarah, so probably Pete is right in his argument ... but we still can't be sure building on arguments. There are written already many thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sarah's first child and the date of wedding. I don't know how long a trip was, but probably Sarah was already pregnant (by Jan) before they left te Neterlands. I have many accounts (even of people born in the 20th century) of children being born a few months after de weddingday: the couple being in love haven a sexual relationship before marriage ... nothing new under the sun - especcially not for soldiers. But for this, we should know how long the boat trip was and I don't have that clear right now. There has been a noble Van Arnhem family in the Netherlands as far as we know from around the year 1100 up to 1716 when the last of these noble Van Arnhems died, without leaving children. But, there are several "bastards" from this family. A basterd was not a noble man and most of the time they didn't have any part of the inheritance of their father. This is probably the reason for some of the Van Arnhem family-branches in the Netherlands (in one instance I'm quite sure of it). Thanks for your honest questions and the open mind to research all possibilities. Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 11-10-2010 13:24, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, > , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) (Susan Claggett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 05:57:09 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, > Jan Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<5667DFD770794BB880314E7BAE7D79D3@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Pim, > > Jan Dirckzen does actually use his surname on his wedding record in 1664: > > 1664 28 Jun; Jan Dirckszen, van Aernhem, Soldaet; Sara Theuniszen, jd van > Rotterdam > > Could you please tell me more about his arrival in New Amsterdam? I have > seen it mention that he arrived in New Amsterdam in January of 1664 as a > soldier but I can't remember the name of the ship. Do you have the > information about his sailing? > > I personally don't think our Sara Theunis is a Van Salee for the reasons > that Pete has referenced previously. I found a note of his today and read > it again and it refutes it very clearly. > > What are your thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sara's first child less > than six months from their date of marriage? > > Is the Van Arnhem family a noble family in The Netherlands? What makes it > so? > > Another reference from the Fonda family tree about Jan Dirckzen surname is > below. > > Thank you! > > Regards, > > Susan > > Hester Janse FONDA, born 1672.2 She married Jan Janse VANARNAM 14 Oct > 1696.12 Jan > Janse VANARNAM was born 4 Jun 1671,13 died 1 Apr 1708.14 > b. Albany, NY; d. Albany, Albany Co., NY; had 6 children from 1697-1708: > Sara, Abraham, > Rebecca, Isaac, Rachael and Jan Dirck; [R044] Innes Getty Collection: Jellis > Douwse Fonda; > [R034] The Compendium of American Genealogy>> www.fonda.org<< > Notes for Jan Janse VANARNAM: b. NY; s/o Jan Dirckzen VanAernam (b1640 in > Holland) > and Sarah Theunis; d. Rensselaerwyck (now Troy), NY; son Isaac VanAernam > (bp. > 4-May-1704) Revolutionary Soldier was signer of original "Oath of Secrecy" > (1/27/1777), > Albany Committee of Correspondence, 115 county-wide signers, promise to keep > Committee > business secret; [R002] Pearson's First Settlers of the Ancient County of > Albany; [R093] > William Randall (1609-1693) of Scituate and his Descendants with Ancestral > Families; [R034] > The Compendium of American Genealogy>> www.fonda.org<< > Notes for Hester Janse FONDA and Jan Janse VANARNAM: m. First Dutch Reformed > Church, Albany, NY or Rennselaerwyck, NY; [R087c] Genealogical and Family > History of > Northern New York > -----Original Message----- > From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:56 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan > Dircksen, , , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pim van Arnhem) > > Hi Pete, > There was a lot of name-changing, mis-writing and experimenting with > both patronyms and surnames in those day's in the Netherlands too. So > that's no proof that Jan Dircks didn't have Van Arnhem as surname in the > Netherlands. I've seen that several times in records here, making > research sometimes troublesome. > Maybe Jan Dirks didn't (or even didn't want to) use his surname Van > Arnhem during his trip to the States, but started using it again on a > later date. A reason that his name wasn't used can be that he was indeed > a bastard descendant of the noble family van Arnhem. His father then > would have been dat Dirk Jansz officer or soldier under General Graaf > van Nassau, this is Frederick Hendrick van Nassau, who followed up > Prince Maurits. What I have as proof is that this Maurits had a Jan van > Aernhem as korporaal (officer) in service, who's father Gerhard van > Arnhem was stalmeester (stable master) of Maurits. So the line can be > Gerhard van Arnhem had a son Jan, who had a son Dirk Jansz, who had a > son Jan Dirksz, the one who emigrated to Amerika. All Van Arnhems here > have Van Arnhem as surname, not as city where the come from. If this is > the case, there was no reason to use his surname, a patronym could be > sufficient. > > I do not have any info about the Jan Dirksz from Bremen. In several > records I see that harbors are mentioned - not to be confused with > surnames - so it looks like another Jan Dircksz leaving from Bremen. > Both names Jan en Dirk were very common in the Netherlands, leaving us > with thousands of possibilities as long as we do not have the surname or > other relevant information. > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > > Op 10-10-2010 23:59, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> 2. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:37:59 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP134705BA14EFEDCFC65BCD5AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> However, as I said, our Jan Dircks didn't use Van Arnhem as a surname. > And >> is his children first experimented with the surnames Janszen and Dirckszen >> before settleing on Van Arnhem. >> >> Sorry, won't work. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pim van Arnhem"<wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, , Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> "There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>> where >>> one would expect there to be another child." Interestingly the Dutch >>> parents of Jan Dircks I found in the archive of Arnhem were Dirk Jansz >>> van Arnhem (here you have again a combination of patronym and sirname) >>> who was married with Magdaleentjen Janssen. That Jan names his daughter >>> Magdaleen favors the Dutch desendancy of Jan Dircks and that "van >>> Arnhem" was his sir-name and not only the place he came from (otherwise >>> all people born in Arnhem would have had the sirname "van Arnhem") There >>> was a "van Arnhem" family living in Arnhem in those day's!! >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Pim van Arnhem >>> >>> >>> Op 10-10-2010 21:17, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 2. Re: Dirk Jansz (Pete Gonigam) >>>> 3. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Susan Claggett) >>>> 4. Re: Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, >>>> Jan Dircksz from Bremen) (Pete Gonigam) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 10:36:16 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP188881AC396A9767B368116AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> There is, indeed an empty spot between daughter Dirkje and Magdalena >>>> where >>>> one would expect there to be another child. (There's a tendency toward >>>> kids >>>> every two years which is about long enough to bear and suckle a child to >>>> weaning at which point suppressor hormones diminish and allowing another >>>> pregnancy.) >>>> >>>> There are two possiblities: One is miscarriage, stillbirth or infant >>>> death. >>>> The other is that there was, indeed, another child. In fact, Jan Dircks >>>> and >>>> Sara Theunis clearly had a daughter named Helena (on account of she >>>> appears >>>> at some of her siblings' children's baptisms) and there's no record > other >>>> than the baptismal one of daughter Magdalena. Furthermore the name >>>> Magdalena never appears in the family again although Helena does quite >>>> often. Both names shorten to "Lentje" ("little Lena"), by the way. >>>> >>>> "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," but I think it's a > good >>>> indicator in this case since Jan and Sara seem otherwise to have been >>>> pretty >>>> scrupulous about baptising their offspring. >>>> >>>> My best guess is that the space between Dirckje and Magdalena represents >>>> a >>>> nonviable child. It's also my guess that "Magdalena" never existed and >>>> was, >>>> in fact, Helena. It seems too complex but the two questions are, in >>>> fact, >>>> independent of each other. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:49 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> John, >>>>> >>>>> You make a lot of really good points. I will try to get back on track. >>>>> Okay maybe he was on the same boat with her as a paid soldier. I did >>>>> not >>>>> notice on the wedding record that it said she was a young woman (not >>>>> previously married) until you pointed it out. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if the year is wrong on the baptismal record and should be Dec >>>>> 31, >>>>> 1665? Where is page 77? It goes from 76 to 78 (See below). There are >>>>> several years before their next child Magdalena in 1669. I don't know, >>>>> LOL. >>>>> Thanks again! >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 14; Johan, Rachel Dircks; Christina; Jacques Casjou, Christina >>>>> 1664 Dec 21; Pieter Suncam, Debora Jans; Agnietie; Claes Thyssen, >>>>> Barentje >>>>> Jans >>>>> - page 76 >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Claes Dudloos, Aeltje Samsons; Catharyn; Rutgert >>>>> Willemszen, >>>>> Juffr. Ver Brack >>>>> 1665 Jan 12; Jean Dupre, Janneken Dupre; Francyntie; Anthony Dircks, >>>>> Jacomyntie du Wel >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Brouwer, Jannetie Jans; Hendrick; Albert Leenartszen, >>>>> Ariaentie >>>>> 1665 Jan 14; Jan Adamszen, Geertie Dircks; Maria; Steven Courtszen, >>>>> Agniet >>>>> Lodovyckszen >>>>> 1665 Jan 18; Cornelis Matthyszen, Barentje Dircks; Matthys; Jan > Adamszen >>>>> - page 78 >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; David de Voor, Jannetje Frans; Adriaen; Adriaen Dirckszen, >>>>> Marie Dopzen >>>>> 1665 Jan 28; Jacob Stoffelszen, Tryntie Jacobs; Jacobus; Nicolaes >>>>> Verleth, >>>>> El >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:35 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Pete can probably give a more thorough answer for both issues, but > ships >>>>> were not always well recorded, or the records may not have survived >>>>> intact. >>>>> In addition, cargo - that is soldiers - was not recorded as well as >>>>> paying >>>>> passengers, since they didn't pay passage... Also, records may have > been >>>>> recorded in several places - among possibly others, Dutch West India > Co. >>>>> in >>>>> Amsterdam, port authority records in Amsterdam, port records in New >>>>> Amsterdam, company records in New Amsterdam - and modern researches may >>>>> not >>>>> have translated, transcribed and peiced together all of them as of yet. >>>>> These were not the passenger lists for immigration like latter years, >>>>> but >>>>> manifests by Dutch West Co. >>>>> >>>>> They couldn't have been married onboard without a preist (of the Dutch >>>>> Reformed Church), and even then, it would not have been appropriate. > The >>>>> concept of a ship captain marrying people is somewhat a myth. Marriages >>>>> were >>>>> the domain of the church. To have been married, they needed to announce >>>>> their intentions. I'm not real clear on the why, but I would conjecture >>>>> that >>>>> it allowed allowed time for anyone with reason for them not to be >>>>> married >>>>> to >>>>> come forward (past spouces, debt holders, indenture holders, >>>>> apprentishship >>>>> masters, etc.). It may have also been necissary to allow time for > record >>>>> searches, should someone require it. I think posting marriage banns was >>>>> similiar to advertising probate court cases, like is still done today >>>>> with >>>>> disposal of estate or repossessions. Whatever the reason, it was a >>>>> requirement for any marriage. A two month waiting period was, I think, >>>>> basically the minimim amount of time. According to the marriage record, >>>>> she >>>>> was not a widow, but was a "young daughter bride". ("Jongedochter > bruid: >>>>> J" >>>>> - "Ja" is "Yes"; according to Google, "no" is "geen") >>>>> >>>>> If any of this is incorrect, hopefully Pete will set me straight. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, "January Dircksz" was Google getting aggressive in translation. > The >>>>> actual text is "Jan Dirckszen". >>>>> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I don't think Jan Dircksen (January Dircksz) was on that ship with > Sara >>>>>> Theunisz. The records seem complete and numbered for passenger count. >>>>>> Unless a soldier escorting the ship is not listed on the manifest like >>>>>> other >>>>>> staff. >>>>>> >>>>>> If he were traveling with her and got her pregnant why would they wait >>>>>> to >>>>>> get to NY to get married? Could they have married on board the ship? >>>>>> If >>>>>> she did get pregnant on board why did they wait over a month to get >>>>> married >>>>>> once in NY? Sara must have already been pregnant and possible a young >>>>>> widow. Maybe there was a delay in baptizing Dirkjt after she was > born. >>>>>> Susan >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:57 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>>>> Jan >>>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, translation of marriage record: >>>>>> Source Type: Wedding Book >>>>>> Congregation: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>> Proclamation: 06/28/1664 >>>>>> Belief: NDG >>>>>> Hometown: New Amsterdam-New York >>>>>> Groom: January Dircksz >>>>>> Hometown groom: Arnhem >>>>>> Bride: Sara Theunisz >>>>>> Hometown wedding: Rotterdam >>>>>> Young Daughter bride: J >>>>>> Previous partner groom: >>>>>> Previous partner bride >>>>>> Further information: The groom is a soldier >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:55 PM,<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jan Dirksz Van Arnhem means son of Dirk from Arnhem. In turn, Dirk >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have a patroym (what we today use as last name) would be the same as >>>>>>> his >>>>>>> father's first name. Particulairly confusing, since they tended to > use >>>>>> the >>>>>>> same names generation after generation, creating an effect of >>>>>> flip-flopping >>>>>>> names. It's possible (completely speculative), but Dirk's father > could >>>>>> have >>>>>>> been Jan, and thus be Dirk Jansz, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They were married Jun 28 1664: >>>>>>> Soort bron: Trouwboek >>>>>>> Kerkgemeente: Collegiate Church of New York >>>>>>> Proclamatie: 28-06-1664 >>>>>>> Gezindte: NDG >>>>>>> Plaats: Nieuw Amsterdam-New York >>>>>>> Bruidegom: Jan Dirckszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruidegom: Arnhem >>>>>>> Bruid: Sara Theuniszen >>>>>>> Geboorteplaats bruid: Rotterdam >>>>>>> Jongedochter bruid: J >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruidegom: >>>>>>> Vorige partner bruid: >>>>>>> Nadere informatie: De bruidegom is soldaat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> De Trouw with Sara Theunis aboard arrived in Apr 1664. As Pete and I >>>>> have >>>>>>> argued over, despite being in basic agreement, he would have had to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been aboard the same ship for her to concieve so quickly after (or >>>>>> during) >>>>>>> the voyage. To assume otherwise would be to assume Dirkjte is not his >>>>>>> daughter, but moreover is needless speculation (as he and I have been >>>>>>> speculating over). >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:42 PM, Susan Claggett< >>>>>>> claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nevermind on my question below because I just realized the ages > won't >>>>>> work >>>>>>>> if our Jan Dircksen was born around 1640. He could not have had 3 >>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>> 15, 8 and 10 months in 1659. So Jan Dircksen from Alckmaer is >>>>> obviously >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> different person. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But our Jan Dircksen who married Sara Teunis could be at least age >>>>>>>> wise >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> son of Jan Dircksen of Bremen . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My previous question: >>>>>>>> Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen? Did >>>>>>>> our >>>>>> Jan >>>>>>>> Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 >>>>>>>> children? >>>>>>>> Did >>>>>>>> his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to > Sara >>>>>>>> Teunis >>>>>>>> and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 57 Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer >>>>>>>> 58 Mrs. Dircksen (wife) >>>>>>>> 59 - 61 three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 12:08:49 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP104CA916A0A8E733ECE9A1DAB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Versions of this descent for Jan Dircks (Van Arnhem) are scattered all >>>> over >>>> the Internet now. I haven't been able to figure out who first >>>> promulgated >>>> it. There are so many things wrong with it that it's hard to know where >>>> to >>>> begin. Here are the two big ones. though: >>>> >>>> When you look at the early Van Arnhems one thing jumps out: While lots >>>> of >>>> people stand as "getuygen" (roughly godparents) at the baptism of Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis' children, they never return the favor. Not once. > It's >>>> unprecedented in the groups of people with whom they associated. >>>> >>>> I think the explanation lies in what godparents were at a baptism for in >>>> the >>>> first place. Technically they were guarantors that if the parents died >>>> they >>>> themselves would make sure the child was brought up within the "body" > and >>>> doctrines of the Dutch Reformed Church. However, to make such a >>>> guarantee >>>> the godparent had to be part of that body himself (or herself). >>>> >>>> I can find no other way to explain the absence of Jan and Sara as >>>> godparents >>>> other than to suppose they were not themselves members of the RDC and so >>>> barred from being godparents. Assuming this is correct, then the Jan >>>> Dirckzen baptized in Arnhem Oct. 13, 1640, can't be "our" Jan Dircks >>>> because >>>> that man by his very baptism was clearly part of the body of the DRC. >>>> >>>> I would also argue that the seeming military bacground of the 1640 man >>>> that >>>> Linda finds so appealing is another reason to suspect this isn't, in >>>> fact, >>>> "our" Jan Dircks. Assuming for the contrary for a moment we bump up >>>> against the demonstrable fact that our Jan Dircks stayed in New York >>>> after >>>> the Dutch surrendered it to the Brits and became a farmer for the rest > of >>>> his known life. >>>> >>>> The terms of New Amsterdam's surrender contained a hidden incentive for >>>> common soldiers to stay put. Although not specifically stated, doing > so >>>> would, in effect, abrogate his contract with the West India Company. >>>> More >>>> to the point, he could escape any liens against that contract which in >>>> the >>>> case of most Dutch dogfaces were both common and crushing. >>>> >>>> Jan Dircks' observed behavior (again) is more consistent with an >>>> impoverished kid who became a soldier out of desperation than with the >>>> hypothezied scion of a professional family. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Linda Schwenn"<schwel@comcast.net> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:34 PM >>>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz >>>> >>>> >>>>> I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I >>>>> have >>>>> not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all >>>>> the >>>>> current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have > found >>>>> duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan >>>>> Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an >>>>> officer >>>>> in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. >>>>> Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, >>>>> Prince >>>>> of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or >>>>> fact? >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Summary:* >>>>> >>>>> *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sex: >>>>> >>>>> Male >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Father: >>>>> >>>>> Jan Derryckssen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mother: >>>>> >>>>> Gerriken Beecken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Individual Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Birth: >>>>> >>>>> Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 33 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Death: >>>>> >>>>> Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Military Service: >>>>> >>>>> officer under General Count von Nassau >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Shared Facts:* >>>>> >>>>> *Magdalena Jans* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marriage: >>>>> >>>>> 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reference ID: >>>>> >>>>> 1692 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Children: >>>>> >>>>> Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joris Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hendrik Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marricken Van Arnhem VA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Notes:* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in >>>>> "Man in a Golden Helmet". >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 13:42:41 -0500 >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<704F839FB6C34D1F92570364C8204919@vantk1o0kgylz7> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the > passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability > reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>> want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on > an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>> posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant > "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for > "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 14:17:39 -0500 >>>> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >>>> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP163AA4843353A74CFB12731AB520@phx.gbl> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>>> reply-type=original >>>> >>>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at >>>> their >>>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>>> and >>>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of >>>> the >>>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>>> >>>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>>> probably >>>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>>> (largely >>>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or >>>> another >>>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>>> >>>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>>> the >>>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers > repeatedly. >>>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>>> >>>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about > 12 >>>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated >>>> on >>>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>>> when >>>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>>> >>>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan > Dircks >>>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for > Sarah. >>>> --pete >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> >>>>> Pete: >>>>> >>>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the >>>>> passenger's >>>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>>> these >>>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>>> have >>>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability >>>>> reasons >>>>> at >>>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would >>>>> want >>>>> and need to know. >>>>> >>>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always > enjoy >>>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with > us. >>>>> Do >>>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have > been >>>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>>> >>>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>>> aren't >>>>> >>>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>>> before sailing. >>>>> >>>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>>> flier >>>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to > avoid >>>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on >>>>> an >>>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>>> the >>>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were >>>>> posted >>>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>>> >>>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant >>>>> "never-married." >>>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>>> what >>>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for >>>>> "spinster" >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >>>> >>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >>>> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >>>> body of the >>>> email with no additional text. >>>> >>>> >>>> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 137 >>>> ***************************************** >>>> >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 16:59:24 -0500 >> From: Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, >> Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP14345E189A7411707300E51AB520@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Lost the tree I was constructing two or three crashes ago. >> >> Helena appears at two or three Van Arnhem baptisms. She seems to have > been >> married to a guy named something like Thomas Huyck. (Two different > records >> on that; and the Huycks keep appearing on the fringes of the group into >> which the Van Arnhems later married in Albany.) I think they lived >> somewhere around Haverstraw but I can't find them in any church records >> anywhere in New Jersey and I can't find any record of a Huyckj or any > likely >> variation named Thomas. >> >> There is no record of baptism for Helena, although she bears a "Van >> Arnhem/Arnam name", that is, one which keeps re-appearing through the >> generations of the family. >> >> There is, as I said, no record of Magdalena after her baptism. And her > name >> does not appear in later generations. Maybe she was real and just died >> young. Maybe she was actually Helena somehow misentered or > mistranscribed. >> And there were errors in the records. I can't remember off the top of > which >> head which one but in one of the Van Arnhem/Eckerson baptisms the domine > got >> mixed up about which witness was married to whom. An easy mistake >> considering the number of siblings married to siblings-in-law at the time. >> (Four couples among the Van Arnhems, Eckersons and Burroughs's.) >> >> --pete >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan >> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >> >> >> Having moved on to kids of Jan Dirksz, I was considering asking you >> about the Helen question, but haven't gotten far enough to even >> formulate an intelligent question. But these are the entries that are >> causing my (current) confusion. >> >> 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, >> jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Johannis; Jan Ekkeson jr >> & wife Helena Jansen >> 1702 Jun 21; Robbert Bossi, Catharina Jansen; Rebecka 1 jaar out; Jan >> Ekkeson sr& wife Apalonia >> >> Would it be possible to get a copy of your early VO tree? >> >> On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Correct. The lists are only of those passengers whe owed passage at their >>> destination. Lorrine has added some names that appear in notarial lists >>> and >>> other records but it's safe to say they still only cover a fraction of > the >>> immigrants to New Amsterdam. >>> >>> The Captain, often but not always one and the same as the shipowner >>> probably >>> knew who his passengers were in a sense. Safety and accountability >>> (largely >>> modern concepts, anyway) had little to do with it. But one way or another >>> you can bet the captain was sure everyone on his ship paid to be there >>> whether in cash or what amounted to an indenture. >>> >>> The ships tended to be small--like a 70 foot keel and 30 foot beam--and >>> the >>> trips long so the captain probably encountered all passengers repeatedly. >>> How much fraternization went on I have no clue. >>> >>> I've been working on my Great-grandmother Van Arnam's family for about 12 >>> years now. Since my line is one of the few clear ones I've concentrated > on >>> the earliest Van Arnhems until about the end of the Revolution which is >>> when >>> the other already shaky lines really go all to Hell. >>> >>> I believe I can assure you there's no point in trying to prove Jan Dircks >>> was someone else in New Amsterdam before 1664 or (at least so far) after >>> 1681 since I spent several years myself trying to do so. Same for Sarah. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>> >>> >>>> Pete: >>>> >>>> So are you saying that if a fare was paid in advance that the > passenger's >>>> names did not appear on a ships manifest? The lists we are looking at >>>> online only those names that owed money for the passage appear because >>>> these >>>> lists were compiled after the sailing by researchers? Did the Captain >>>> have >>>> any idea of who his passengers were for safety and accountability > reasons >>>> at >>>> the time of sailing? I would have to think even back than they would > want >>>> and need to know. >>>> >>>> You have such wonderful information about the VN family. I always enjoy >>>> reading your emails. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >>>> Do >>>> you have a love for history in general? May I ask how long you have been >>>> studying the VN family? Thanks >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 10:10 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz,Jan >>>> Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) >>>> >>>> Regarding "ship's passenger lists". The ones you see on the Internet >>>> aren't >>>> >>>> actually that. What they are is compiled lists (taken from the ships' >>>> account books) of passengers on each voyage whose passage was not paid >>>> before sailing. >>>> >>>> I'm still not sure why a squareheaded Dutch ship captain would take a >>>> flier >>>> on transporting someone without cash in hand. My best guess is to avoid >>>> deadheading. Without a passenger at least on spec the risk of loss on an >>>> empty space was 100 percent while the risk of loss selling the debt for >>>> the >>>> passage on the other end was logically something less than that. >>>> >>>> Regarding marriage: Banns, public notices of intent to marry, were > posted >>>> at the local church for three successive weeks. If no one raised an >>>> objection (previous betrothal, already existing marriage, whatever) the >>>> wedding took place at the end of the fourth. >>>> >>>> Jongedochter, often abbreviated as JD, technically meant > "never-married." >>>> Literally, of course, it is "young daughter" but that's because that's >>>> what >>>> most unmarried women were. I don't think I've seen a word for "spinster" >>>> in >>>> >>>> Dutch although Babelfish comes up with "oude vrijster". >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 140 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 144 > ***************************************** > >

I've got a few minutes. Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. Calling Jan Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, one he simply jumped to. (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, just for starters.) The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about these old books. First, they can be wrong. In this case the part about Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on Riker's part. That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) remarried and moved to Boston. I worked this out three or four years ago with help from the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be good for everyone to visit. However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to info no longer available. I can't find the will or any reference to it other than this one. Neither can researchers better than I. Apparently it existed once upon a time but now it's gone. Dang! There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. Whether this is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to determine,however. Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem > (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters > was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch > provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks > and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>> Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>> of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>> long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>> sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>> brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>> research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Teunis Jansz and Jannetje Arents had four kids baptised in Amsterdam. No Sara. Willem, 1627 Jan, 1629 Jan, 1631 Arent, 1637 (There were four Sara Teunis' born in Amsterdam between 1634 and 1648.) On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:42 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Interesting. No sources though > (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0936.html). > Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg b: October 19, 1631 in Amsterdam,. Netherlands d: >> 1669 in Brooklyn, New York. Tryntje Pieters Cronenberg ... >> familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott.../PDFGENEO1.pdf >> >> >> >>  <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/PDFGENEO1.pdf> >> http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/PDFGENEO1.pdf >> >> >> >> According to this Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg  and our Sara's parents are >> Teunis Jans and Jannetje Arents. >> >> >> >> Wow could it be true!!! >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

I never completely sorted it out, either. It doesn't really matter. What's important are the people involved. They are "leads" to other potentially more important information. Unfortunately, in this instance, the leads don't go anywhere that I could find. Two things can be concluded, though. Sarah was in Harlem in 1665. She seems to have acted kind of stupidly. --pete ----- Original Message ----- From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 6:26 AM Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > Am I missing something on Sara's case regarding the stolen beaver...? > Sara is arrested (I'm not clear on why), and in the next session, > Grietje demands she be arrested. > > What I've found so far: > Grietje sues Lsybet Ackermans, who can't appear. > > Next session, Lsybet appears; Grietje accuses Lsybet of accusing her > of stealing a beaver. > > Lysbet denies accusing her. Grietje says Mary Pia told her Lsybet has > said so. Mary admits it, but denies hearing it from Lysbet. > > Next session, Mary says she heard it from Sara Theunis. Sara says she > heard it from Jesayntje Verhage. > > Several sessions later, Sara has been arrested. Sara repeats Jesayntje > told he. Jesayntje denies it. (Words are exchanged.) > > Next session, Grietje demands Sara be arrested. > > Next session, Sheriff states Josyn Verhegen told Sara that Grietje > took it. Grietje ordered to pay court fees, and case is dismissed. > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident >>>> happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in >>>> trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling >>>>> the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if >>>>> this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged >>>>>> to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another >>>>>> soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>> Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was >>>>>> a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>> of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at >>>>>> all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems >>>>>> unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>> long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>> brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>> research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Am I missing something on Sara's case regarding the stolen beaver...? Sara is arrested (I'm not clear on why), and in the next session, Grietje demands she be arrested. What I've found so far: Grietje sues Lsybet Ackermans, who can't appear. Next session, Lsybet appears; Grietje accuses Lsybet of accusing her of stealing a beaver. Lysbet denies accusing her. Grietje says Mary Pia told her Lsybet has said so. Mary admits it, but denies hearing it from Lysbet. Next session, Mary says she heard it from Sara Theunis. Sara says she heard it from Jesayntje Verhage. Several sessions later, Sara has been arrested. Sara repeats Jesayntje told he. Jesayntje denies it. (Words are exchanged.) Next session, Grietje demands Sara be arrested. Next session, Sheriff states Josyn Verhegen told Sara that Grietje took it. Grietje ordered to pay court fees, and case is dismissed. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

With the Harlem book and story of Jan's missing quilt, Sara's case of slander makes a whole lot more sense. Pierre Cresson accused Jan Thuenisson of stealing Jan Dircksz quilt. Sara, Jan T. and wife accuse Anna Raynart, husband of Pierre Cresson of stealing. Probably of stealing said quilt. Probably something like: Anna: You find that quilt that went "missing" (emphasis)? Jan T.: No, do YOU know where it's at?! Anna: I have no idea. Sara: (something stupid) Jan T.: (something equally stupid) Mayke: (ditto) Anna: Oooh! I'll get you! (stamps foot, stalks away) On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > I love all of this background information Pete.  It really adds personality > to our search. > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

1. [PDF] THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - <http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:3hkKPC7eRtIJ:www.ostrander.org/OF Agen1and2V2nov6.pdf+Teunis+Jans+and+Jannetje+Arents&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid =ADGEEShxyp57xQNPHdNHm3sPaMbZkeOc5TMYLPqqf8ddtJNt5uc5ipTsjM7OY5jcwJ_meW9Xm1B AZ3MkxPd3kNfOmgQoF1JgOfv9d5PzF3ZprN7jFX_UCn4m1igx0fV-89ekwd_fPmyf&sig=AHIEtb T5RKuepE5tlJyFWGyRxD4RD3crkA> Quick View Arent Teunis from Amsterdam, locksmith, 21 (see note below), assisted by Jannetje. Arentse his mother, living on the Palmstraat and Geesje Jans from Norden, ... www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf Jan THEUNISSEN 19 OCT 1631 - 1669 * BIRTH: 19 OCT 1631, Amsterdam, NETH [105] <http://home1.gte.net/vze4p5bi/d0001/g0000059.html#105#105> * DEATH: 1669, Brooklyn, NY [106] <http://home1.gte.net/vze4p5bi/d0001/g0000059.html#106#106> Father: Teunis JANS <http://home1.gte.net/vze4p5bi/d0001/g0000058.html#I0480> Mother: Jannetje ARENTS <http://home1.gte.net/vze4p5bi/d0000/g0000059.html#I0481> Family 1 : Maritje JANS <http://home1.gte.net/vze4p5bi/d0000/g0000060.html#I0483> * MARRIAGE: WFT Est. 1662-1668 [186] <http://home1.gte.net/vze4p5bi/d0001/g0000059.html#186#186> 1. +Ragel Jans <http://home1.gte.net/vze4p5bi/d0001/g0000032.html#I0156> PIER Notes for RAGEL JANS: 1661, May 9 -- "... Again we have a Dutch patronymic, Maritje, daughter of Jan. [Rachel] was one of two daughters, age 1 1/2 and 4, who appear unnamed with their parents, Jan Theunissen and Maritje Jans, on the May 9, 1661 passenger list of the ship 'De St. Jan Baptist' ... The record of her second marriage shows that Maritje was born Amsterdam. The father was very likely the Jan Teunisze who was born at Amsterdam 10-19-1631, son of Teunis Jans from Deventer, Ourjas, Netherlands and his wife Jannetje Arents which couple had married (Amsterdam?) September 14, 1624. [The Lost Palatine 16:10]. " [John D. Baldwin research, B4, B19) "The two 'sons of Teunis,' Jan and Arent, adopted the surname of Pier, also found as Pyer. Jan's daughter Rachel, the wife of Arie Fransen is found as Rachel Jansen Pyer, Rachel Janse Pier, Rachel Rachel Jansen Pier, Rachel Pier, also simply by the patronymic Rachel Jans and Ragel (Dutch for Rachel) Jans." [Baldwin, B19] 1703, 1707, 1711 -- "Likely she used her married surname as the Maritje Ploeg, sponsor at baptisms of four of her DeLong grandchildren." [Baldwin, B20] 1712 -- "A witness to baptism of child in Kingston." [Baldwin, B20] 1716 -- "Sponsor at birth of Neeltje, daughter of probable daughter Willemtje." [Baldwin, B20] 1720/1721 -- "Rachel and Hendrick Ploeg on Kingston tax list, perhaps the mother and son." [Baldwin, B20] 1723 -- "Sponsor in Kingston" [Baldwin, B20] Children of ARIE FRANSEN and RAGEL JANS are: <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0002. html#CHILD2> 2. i. FRANS2 DELANGE, b. 1681, Esopus, Ulster County, New York; d. 1755. <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0003. html#CHILD3> 3. ii. JANNETJE DELANGE, b. 1683. <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0003. html#CHILD4> 4. iii. MARYTJE LANGET, b. 1684. <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0003. html#CHILD5> 5. iv. RACHEL DELANG, b. 1686. <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0003. html#CHILD6> 6. v. ARIAANTJE DE LANGE, b. 1688, Rochester, Ulster County, New York. <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0003. html#CHILD7> 7. vi. JAN DE LANGE, b. Abt. 1690, Rochester, Ulster County, New York. <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0003. html#CHILD8> 8. vii. WYNTJE DELONG, b. 1693. <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0003. html#CHILD9> 9. viii. JONAS DELANGE, b. 1696, Brabant, Ulster County, New York; d. August 1739. ix. GEESJE DELANG <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0044. html#ENDNOTE6> 6, m. ARIE PIER <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0044. html#ENDNOTE6> 6; b. 1688 <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0044. html#ENDNOTE7> 7. Notes for GEESJE DELANG: 1713 -- "probably a daughter. She was a sponsor 1713 at baptisms of sons of [her probable brothers] Frans and Jan ..." [John D. Baldwin research, B21] Children of ARIE FRANSEN and XXX are: <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0003. html#CHILD10> 10. x. MARYTJE2 DE LANGET, b. 1678, Mombacus. <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0004. html#CHILD11> 11. xi. WILLEMJE LANGEN, b. Abt. 1680, New York City. _____ [ <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/index.html> Home Page | <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0001. html> First Page | Previous Page | <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0002. html> Next Page | <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/e/t/Donald-P-Petro/GENE5-0044. html> Last Page ]

Interesting. No sources though (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0936.html). Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:28 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > > > Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg b: October 19, 1631 in Amsterdam,. Netherlands d: > 1669 in Brooklyn, New York. Tryntje Pieters Cronenberg ... > familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott.../PDFGENEO1.pdf > > > >  <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/PDFGENEO1.pdf> > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/PDFGENEO1.pdf > > > > According to this Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg  and our Sara's parents are > Teunis Jans and Jannetje Arents. > > > > Wow could it be true!!! > > > > Susan > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg b: October 19, 1631 in Amsterdam,. Netherlands d: 1669 in Brooklyn, New York. Tryntje Pieters Cronenberg ... familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott.../PDFGENEO1.pdf <http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/PDFGENEO1.pdf> http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/PDFGENEO1.pdf According to this Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's parents are Teunis Jans and Jannetje Arents. Wow could it be true!!! Susan

My understanding of Dutch nobility, is that they did not pass down their nobility except the first born male. The manor/estate also only went to the first born. This was so not to dilute the nobility. Other sons went into some profession, and were sometimes given allowances. For inheritance, they would not recieve a part of the estate as such, but would often recieve a monetary inheritance. Course I may be wrong. Have a good trip! > There has been a noble Van Arnhem family in the Netherlands as far as we > know from around the year 1100 up to 1716 when the last of these noble > Van Arnhems died, without leaving children. But, there are several > "bastards" from this family. A basterd was not a noble man and most of > the time they didn't have any part of the inheritance of their father. > This is probably the reason for some of the Van Arnhem family-branches > in the Netherlands (in one instance I'm quite sure of it). > > Thanks for your honest questions and the open mind to research all > possibilities. > Kind regards, > Pim van Arnhem > Op 12-10-2010 9:01, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: >> >> Today's Topics: >> >>     1. Re: Holland resource (stolen boots) (Susan Claggett) >>     2. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem > (City >>        of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) >>     3. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem > (City >>        of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:18:22 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<7A5B48FA93374597B1B226F7B1FAA5C1@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="us-ascii" >> >> I love all of this background information Pete.  It really adds > personality >> to our search. >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters > was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch > provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks > and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com>  wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>  wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:57:09 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >>       Harlem  (City of New York) it origin and early annals >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<0FC16FEA77E7406AB712B28DB834FB22@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="us-ascii" >> >> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem > (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters > was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch > provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks > and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com>  wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com>  wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:25:30 -0500 >> From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >>       Harlem  (City of New York) it origin and early annals >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID:<B2D6AC5010D84FF1B6DDCE59A56C9B38@vantk1o0kgylz7> >> Content-Type: text/plain;     charset="us-ascii" >> >> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem > (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C >> > <http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Di >> > rcksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum= >> 1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false> >> > &pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dircksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi >> =book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> >> P.S. I am having trouble getting this to go through to the list.  If it >> duplicates I apologize. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to >> VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 148 >> ***************************************** >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

BTW, anyone who would like excerpts from any of these book (or any PDF/JPEGS), I have tools and knowledge to split, merge, and/or convert them. With my personal tree, if a book only has a few pages of interest, I extract those pages and merge them with the title page. Just let me know the source of the book (i.e. Google books or archive.org address) and desired pages. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:00 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > It appears to be wholely derivative, i.e. "brother-in-law" is probably > not based on any more information than what Pete has seen (and isn't > sourced in any case). The accounts of both Sara gossiping and the > missing blanket, though certainly more entertaining, and put into > context, contain nothing more than what's in the court records we > already seen. I haven't found an "original" source for the land > records (or the tax records), but presumably it too is based on the > same records that Pete knows of. Certainly a good resource; but not > sure it really adds new info, except to show the whole picture. > > Also, it actually has a current (2010) printing. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> John I saw that too.  I can't stop reading...but I am so tired!  Here are a >> few more pages to see and be sure to check out the index of names in the >> 620's page range.  Can't wait to see what our other VN family researcher >> buddies think of this Harlem book.  Do you think it was recently added to >> the web? >> >> Susan >> >> Page 329 >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> #v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen&f=false >> >> Page 248 >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> #v=onepage&q=Jan%20The%20Soldier&f=false >> >> Page 593  The Van Bremen family became Van Bramer >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen%20van%20Bremen&f=false >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:16 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> Page 223 gives a better account of Sara's gossiping, and page 294 >> describes the land that Pete mentioned having been leased. >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:40 AM,  <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of >>> "brother-in-law" and the book itself. >>> >>> I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is >>> translated and transcribed "original") records available? >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >> (City >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>>> several pages especially 244. >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >> so >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >> was >>>> >>>> his wife. >>>> >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >> provinces >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the >> Papist." >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks >> and/or >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>>> --------------. >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >> and >>>> >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>>> the last record of them I can find. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> Is this the gossiping case? >>>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>>> (1st paragraph) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>>> on >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>>> ----------- >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in >> trouble, >>>>> again, for gossiping. >>>>> >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know. >>>>> >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>>> >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>>> >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if >> this >>>>>> is our Sara. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>>> >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>>> lists >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged >> to >>>>>> WIC. >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >> Neither >>>>>> in >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>>> qualities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>>> record >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>>> occupation, >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >> of >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>>> possibly >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>>> they >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems >> unlikely. >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>>> Aside >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>>> Sara, >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >> long >>>>>> one >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan >> Dircks >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >> sort >>>>>> of >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >> brother >>>>>> or >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >> research >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>>> Dircks >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --pete >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

It appears to be wholely derivative, i.e. "brother-in-law" is probably not based on any more information than what Pete has seen (and isn't sourced in any case). The accounts of both Sara gossiping and the missing blanket, though certainly more entertaining, and put into context, contain nothing more than what's in the court records we already seen. I haven't found an "original" source for the land records (or the tax records), but presumably it too is based on the same records that Pete knows of. Certainly a good resource; but not sure it really adds new info, except to show the whole picture. Also, it actually has a current (2010) printing. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > John I saw that too.  I can't stop reading...but I am so tired!  Here are a > few more pages to see and be sure to check out the index of names in the > 620's page range.  Can't wait to see what our other VN family researcher > buddies think of this Harlem book.  Do you think it was recently added to > the web? > > Susan > > Page 329 > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > #v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen&f=false > > Page 248 > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > #v=onepage&q=Jan%20The%20Soldier&f=false > > Page 593  The Van Bremen family became Van Bramer > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen%20van%20Bremen&f=false > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:16 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals > > Page 223 gives a better account of Sara's gossiping, and page 294 > describes the land that Pete mentioned having been leased. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:40 AM,  <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of >> "brother-in-law" and the book itself. >> >> I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is >> translated and transcribed "original") records available? >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem > (City >>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>> several pages especially 244. >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > so >>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters > was >>> >>> his wife. >>> >>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch > provinces >>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > Papist." >>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > and/or >>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>> --------------. >>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks > and >>> >>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>> the last record of them I can find. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged > to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Pim: Thanks for your note with more fascinating tidbits for me to try to look up and learn more about this next week. I am looking forward to our group discussing it more with you when you return from Spain. Enjoy your trip! Best Regards, Susan -----Original Message----- From: Pim van Arnhem [mailto:wc.van.arnhem@xmsnet.nl] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 2:59 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen Hi Susan, I'm packing right now to travel coming week to Spain, so at this moment I'll give you a very short answer, hoping to reply more in detail when I return. Good to see that Jan used his surname as soon as his wedding: that supports that Van Arnhem is his surname, and not te place where he came from (Sara is'nt called Sara van Rotterdam to make a comparison!). Then your questions: I have the information that Jan was baptized on Saterday 13 october 1640 in Arnhem [Dutchs Hervormd] and travelled with "Het Gebroken Hart" (Broken Heart) when he came to New York in januari 1664. For the source of this info I have to dig it up later. I haven't done research on Sarah, so probably Pete is right in his argument ... but we still can't be sure building on arguments. There are written already many thoughts about the birth of Jan and Sarah's first child and the date of wedding. I don't know how long a trip was, but probably Sarah was already pregnant (by Jan) before they left te Neterlands. I have many accounts (even of people born in the 20th century) of children being born a few months after de weddingday: the couple being in love haven a sexual relationship before marriage ... nothing new under the sun - especcially not for soldiers. But for this, we should know how long the boat trip was and I don't have that clear right now. There has been a noble Van Arnhem family in the Netherlands as far as we know from around the year 1100 up to 1716 when the last of these noble Van Arnhems died, without leaving children. But, there are several "bastards" from this family. A basterd was not a noble man and most of the time they didn't have any part of the inheritance of their father. This is probably the reason for some of the Van Arnhem family-branches in the Netherlands (in one instance I'm quite sure of it). Thanks for your honest questions and the open mind to research all possibilities. Kind regards, Pim van Arnhem Op 12-10-2010 9:01, vannorman-request@rootsweb.com schreef: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Holland resource (stolen boots) (Susan Claggett) > 2. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > 3. Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:18:22 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<7A5B48FA93374597B1B226F7B1FAA5C1@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I love all of this background information Pete. It really adds personality > to our search. > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 00:57:09 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<0FC16FEA77E7406AB712B28DB834FB22@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > Regards, > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > Yes. It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so > clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). Tryntie Pieters was > > his wife. > > Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of the Dutch provinces > where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. > Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." > Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or > Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > --------------. > While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. Jan Dircks and > > Sara went to in Harlem 1665. In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. It was lousy > land (although apparently good swamp) and they apparently went back to > Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. That's > the last record of them I can find. > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > > > Is this the gossiping case? > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > (1st paragraph) > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >> on >> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >> ----------- >> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >> again, for gossiping. >> >> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From:<jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> I don't know. >> >> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >> >> Pete, is this our Sarah? >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>> is our Sara. >>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>> >>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam<gonigam@hotmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>> >>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>> lists >>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>> WIC. >>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>> >>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>> for >>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>> in >>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>> qualities. >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>> record >>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>> >>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>> occupation, >>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>> >>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>> possibly >>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>> they >>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>> -------- >>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>> Aside >>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>> Sara, >>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>> one >>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>> >>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>> >>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>> somewhat >>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>> of >>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>> or >>>> some sort of cousin. >>>> >>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>> I >>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>> Dircks >>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 01:25:30 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett"<claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals > To:<vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<B2D6AC5010D84FF1B6DDCE59A56C9B38@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I think I found a good reference. Of course it may have already been > discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. On page 242 Harlem (City > of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen > from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. The accused is his > brother in law Jan Teunissen. There is lots of good info on the next > several pages especially 244. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C > <http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Di > rcksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum= > 1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false> > &pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dircksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi > =book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > > Regards, > > > > Susan Van Orman Claggett > > > > P.S. I am having trouble getting this to go through to the list. If it > duplicates I apologize. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 148 > ***************************************** > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John I saw that too. I can't stop reading...but I am so tired! Here are a few more pages to see and be sure to check out the index of names in the 620's page range. Can't wait to see what our other VN family researcher buddies think of this Harlem book. Do you think it was recently added to the web? Susan Page 329 http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir #v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen&f=false Page 248 http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir #v=onepage&q=Jan%20The%20Soldier&f=false Page 593 The Van Bremen family became Van Bramer http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=Jan%20Dircksen%20van%20Bremen&f=false -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:16 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in Harlem (City of New York) it origin and early annals Page 223 gives a better account of Sara's gossiping, and page 294 describes the land that Pete mentioned having been leased. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:40 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of > "brother-in-law" and the book itself. > > I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is > translated and transcribed "original") records available? > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Page 223 gives a better account of Sara's gossiping, and page 294 describes the land that Pete mentioned having been leased. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:40 AM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Very interesting - all of it. The incident, the pertenance of > "brother-in-law" and the book itself. > > I wonder what the source of it was... Are the original (that is > translated and transcribed "original") records available? > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:57 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >