You know how to create suspense! On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com>wrote: > I found our Sara Theunis' birth record. After days of seemingly non stop > trying to put this puzzle together I am pretty sure I finally did it.and > the > best part is my Dad was right!!!! > > More to come soon.I've got to get some sleep. My husband thinks I'm crazy, > LOL. I am looking forward to everyone's input and helping to proving it. > So > excited!!! > > > > Regards, > > > > Susan Van Orman Claggett. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I found our Sara Theunis' birth record. After days of seemingly non stop trying to put this puzzle together I am pretty sure I finally did it.and the best part is my Dad was right!!!! More to come soon.I've got to get some sleep. My husband thinks I'm crazy, LOL. I am looking forward to everyone's input and helping to proving it. So excited!!! Regards, Susan Van Orman Claggett.

I am just learning how to use the BHIC site (never used it before a few days ago and I really like it!!!) and I am finding some very interesting family connections. This family (Jan and Sara's) knew each other and often married and served as witnesses for many years prior to coming to the New World. I am also seeing that same relationship continue in New Netherland. Many of them came over in the 1640's to 1660's timeframe. The big breakthrough for me was reading Riker's (Jan T and Jan D being brother in laws) work which was another first for me. I don't believe that Sara and Jan just met in the New World. I feel more strongly than ever that my Dad was right about the Van Orman line arriving in New Amsterdam 20 years after the Mayflower. He specifically told me around 1640 and laughed and said but they married into an older American family that came aboard the Mayflower, LOL. My father knew a lot of stories and details about the family. He was extremely proud of his heritage and tried to convey to me why I should be proud as well. I have never researched the early VO line of the family because I had presumed it was a total brick wall. I don't think it is now. My eyes are growing bleary but I am having fun! Susan Van Orman Claggett -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 7:18 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz (Sara Teunis, Pieter Teunisz, Jan Dircksen, Jan Dircksz from Bremen) It is my impression that Jan Dircksz could not be son of Jan (Jan Dirksz from Bremen, or any Jan from anywhere). His father would be Dirck (unless he was a bastard son - no clue what they did in those cases; my guess would be to either take the patronym of their father, or not use any patrnonym). He clearly used the Patronyn system, as his several of his children have "Jansz/Janszen" as a "middle name". He was also known as both "Jan Dircks" and "Jan Dirckzen" (latter being "son of"). Whether or not he used "Van Arnhem" as a last name, I will leave to Pete to argue, except to point out that I've only seen him referred to as "Van Arnhem", I believe, twice - I've seen him referred to as "the soldier" an equal number of times. Nonetheless, IF he used it as a last name, his father would be "Dirck [unknown] Van Arnhem". [Has anyone seen the original record? Did he capatalize "van"?] The strong presumption is that he immigrated about the De Trouw with Sara in 1664 (NOT 1659), mostly due to the timing of Dirkje. There is not a full passenger list available for De Trouw (1664), but it's known that there was another soldier onboard. The partial list of known people aboard De Trouw not containing Jan Dircksz is no more evidence of him not being aboard, than his name not appearing on any ship register as being evidence he never immigrated. My opinion on Dirkje is that she was premature by about a month and was conceived on arrival. It's my impression that Pete's theory is that she was conceived enroute. If my theory is correct, they presumably knew each other, from the ship, and/or prior to immigration. If they knew each other (well enough to hook up so quickly after her known arrival), there's little sense in them immigrating separately. It's possible they immigrated separately, but without evidence to the contrary, the evidence they arrived together wins. If Pete's theory is correct... They had to be on the same ship. Either way, the evidence is they traveled together. The third possibility proposed is that Sara was pregnant prior to departure. That would put Dirkje about two months overdue... Well outside a reasonable amount of time, without evidence to support it. On possibilities of Sara's parents, personally I simply don't have enough information/knowledge to address it. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > Okay if this is our Sara Teunis that arrived on De Trouw in 1664 when did > Jan Dircksen come to New York? > > > > On my tree I have their marriage date as June 28 1664.  Can't remember where > this exact date came from but I picked it up from someone's tree or from the > marriage record attached to Sara Theunis.  June 28 does not correspond well > with the birth of their first daughter Dirckje 31 Dec 1664; Jan Dirckszen, > Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > > > > Since they did not travel together she may have been promised to him and > came over to join him.  Could Sara be a daughter of Pieter Teunisz? > > > >>Pieter Teunisz From Brunswijck, (Germany); is first mentioned under date of > March 28, 1648, as having taken farm implements, houses and cattle, formerly > used by him and Crijn Cornelisz, with him to Catskill. In 1652 and 1653, > Pieter Teunisz and Jan Dircksz, from Bremen, were summoned to appear before > the court to settle their accounts > > > > Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen?  Did our Jan > Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children?  Did > his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara Teunis > and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? > > > > DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 > > > >  57       Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer > > > >  58       Mrs. Dircksen (wife) > > > >  59 - 61  three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years > > > > DE TROUW (THE FAITH) > > > > Passenger list below Sailed after 13 Feb. 1659 [JJ], on 12 Feb 1659 [NWI], > arrived New Amsterdam before 5 May 1659 > > > > > > Names of special interest to me******* > > > > .           Jan Woutersen, from Ravesteyn; shoemaker, and wife and daughter > > > > .           Catalyntje Cranenburg; maiden > > > > .           Jan van Coppenol, from Remsen; farmer and wife and 2 children > > > > .           Matthys Roelofs, from Denmark,and wife and child > > > > .           Sophia Roeloffs > > > > .           Geertruy Jochems, from Hamburgh; Wife of Claes Claessen from > Amersfoort, now in N. Netherland; and two children > > > > .           Peter Corneliss, from Holsteyn; Labourer ******** > > > > .           Peter Jacobs, from Holsteyn > > > > .           Josyntje Verhagen, from Middelburg, and daughter > > > > .           Saertge Hendricks, from Delft > > > > .           Egbert Meynderts, from Amsterdam, and wife and child and servant > > > > > .           Jan Leurens Noorman and wife ******* > > > > .           Harmen Coerten, from Voorhuysen and wife and 5 children > > > > .           Magalantje Teunis, from Voorhuysen ******* > > > > .           Feytje Dircks ******** > > > > .           Gillis Jansen van Garder and Wife and four children ******** > > > > .           Bastiaen Clement, from Doornick > > > > .           Adriaen Fournoi, from Valenciennes > > > > .           Jannetje Eyckers, from East Friesland > > > > .           Joris Jorissen Townsen, from Redfort; mason > > > > .           Nicholas Gillissen Marschal > > > > .           Wouter gerritsen van Kootuyck > > > > .           Jan Jacobsen, from Utrecht; farmer, and wife, mother and two > children > > > > .           Arent Francken van Iperen > > > > .           Dennys Isacksen, from Wyck by Daurstede > > > > .           Weyntje Martens van Gorehem > > > > .           Vroutje Gerrits, wife of Cosyn Gerritsen; Wheelwright > > > > .           Jan Dircksen, from Alckmaer and Wife and three children > ********* > > > > .           Nettert Jansen, from Embden > > > > .           Epke Jacobs, from Harlingen; farmer and wife and five sons > > > > .           Stoffiel Gerritsen from Laer [ENN: On May 2, 1660 Adriaen van > laer, his brother, settles his account] > > > > .           Jan Meynderts, from Iperen; farmer and wife > > > > .           Jan Barents Ameshof, from Amsterdam > > > > .           Symon Drune from Henegouw > > > > .           Hendrick Harmensen, from Amsterdam > > > > .           Evert Cornellissen from the vicinity of Amersfoort ********* > > > > .           Laurens Jacobs van der Wielen > > > > .           Jannetje Theunis van Ysseltstein ********** > > > > .           Jan Roelofsen, van Naerden; farmer > > > > .           Jacob Hendricks, from the Highland, and maidservant > > > > .           Goossen van Twiller, from New-Kerk > > > > .           Lawrens Janssen, from Wormer ********* > > > > .           Jan Harmens from Amersfoort; Taylor, and wife and four children > > > > .           Evert Marschal; glasier, from Amsterdam and wife and daughter > > > > .           Boele Roelofsen, Joncker, and wife and four children, besides > his Wife's sister and a boy > > > > > > > > Name: Sara Teunis > > > > Marriage Date: 1664 > > > > Marriage Place:  New York City, New York > > > > > > > > Passengers aboard the De Trouw in 1664 > > > > .           Maarcelis Jansen van Bommel; farmer > > > > .           Evert Tack, from the Barony of Breda > > > > .           Lysbet Arens, from Amsterdam, and child [re NWI- child 8 years > old] > > > > .           Johannis Hardenbroeck, from Elberveld, and Wife and four > children [re NWI children were 8,6,5 and 3] > > > > .           Janneken Juriaensen, from Gorcum > > > > .           Corneliss Cornelissen Vernoey, and Wife and sucking child > > > > .           Lysbet de Roode, from Dantzick, Wife of John Saline, and child > [re NWI child was 3 years old] > > > > .           Sara Teunis > > > > We can add the following names as found in Abstracts from Notarial Documents > in the Amsterdam Archives by Pim Nieuwenhuis published in New Netherland > Connections in series Vol. 4:3,4; Vol. 5:1-3 > > > > .           Daniel de Hondecoutre, bachelor, engaged by Pieter van den > Beilcken merchant in Leyden for 4 years to trade on his behalf in New > Netherland [NNC] > > > > .           Norbardus Bodas, soldier from Antwerp, in service of WIC [NNC] > > > >  Did Sara Teunis travel with Lysbet de Roode wife of John Saline? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Linda Schwenn [mailto:schwel@comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:35 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > > > I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have > > not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the > > current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found > > duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan > > Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an officer > > in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. > > Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, Prince > > of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or > > fact? > > > >  *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* > > > > > >     *Individual Summary:* > > > > *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* > > > > > > > > > > > >   Sex: > > > > Male > > > > > >   Father: > > > > Jan Derryckssen > > > > > >   Mother: > > > > Gerriken Beecken > > > > > > > > > > > >    *Individual Facts:* > > > > > > > > > > > > > >    Birth: > > > > Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > > > >   Reference ID: > > > > 33 > > > > > >   Death: > > > > Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > > > >   Military Service: > > > > officer under General Count von Nassau > > > > > > > > > > > >    *Shared Facts:* > > > > *Magdalena Jans* > > > > > > > > > > > >    Marriage: > > > > 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > > > >   Reference ID: > > > > 1692 > > > > > >   Children: > > > > Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  Joris Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  Hendrik Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  Marricken Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  *Notes:* > > > > > >  Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] > > > > > >  Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. > > > > > >  Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in > > "Man in a Golden Helmet". > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It is my impression that Jan Dircksz could not be son of Jan (Jan Dirksz from Bremen, or any Jan from anywhere). His father would be Dirck (unless he was a bastard son - no clue what they did in those cases; my guess would be to either take the patronym of their father, or not use any patrnonym). He clearly used the Patronyn system, as his several of his children have "Jansz/Janszen" as a "middle name". He was also known as both "Jan Dircks" and "Jan Dirckzen" (latter being "son of"). Whether or not he used "Van Arnhem" as a last name, I will leave to Pete to argue, except to point out that I've only seen him referred to as "Van Arnhem", I believe, twice - I've seen him referred to as "the soldier" an equal number of times. Nonetheless, IF he used it as a last name, his father would be "Dirck [unknown] Van Arnhem". [Has anyone seen the original record? Did he capatalize "van"?] The strong presumption is that he immigrated about the De Trouw with Sara in 1664 (NOT 1659), mostly due to the timing of Dirkje. There is not a full passenger list available for De Trouw (1664), but it's known that there was another soldier onboard. The partial list of known people aboard De Trouw not containing Jan Dircksz is no more evidence of him not being aboard, than his name not appearing on any ship register as being evidence he never immigrated. My opinion on Dirkje is that she was premature by about a month and was conceived on arrival. It's my impression that Pete's theory is that she was conceived enroute. If my theory is correct, they presumably knew each other, from the ship, and/or prior to immigration. If they knew each other (well enough to hook up so quickly after her known arrival), there's little sense in them immigrating separately. It's possible they immigrated separately, but without evidence to the contrary, the evidence they arrived together wins. If Pete's theory is correct... They had to be on the same ship. Either way, the evidence is they traveled together. The third possibility proposed is that Sara was pregnant prior to departure. That would put Dirkje about two months overdue... Well outside a reasonable amount of time, without evidence to support it. On possibilities of Sara's parents, personally I simply don't have enough information/knowledge to address it. On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > Okay if this is our Sara Teunis that arrived on De Trouw in 1664 when did > Jan Dircksen come to New York? > > > > On my tree I have their marriage date as June 28 1664.  Can't remember where > this exact date came from but I picked it up from someone's tree or from the > marriage record attached to Sara Theunis.  June 28 does not correspond well > with the birth of their first daughter Dirckje 31 Dec 1664; Jan Dirckszen, > Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > > > > Since they did not travel together she may have been promised to him and > came over to join him.  Could Sara be a daughter of Pieter Teunisz? > > > >>Pieter Teunisz From Brunswijck, (Germany); is first mentioned under date of > March 28, 1648, as having taken farm implements, houses and cattle, formerly > used by him and Crijn Cornelisz, with him to Catskill. In 1652 and 1653, > Pieter Teunisz and Jan Dircksz, from Bremen, were summoned to appear before > the court to settle their accounts > > > > Could our Jan Dircksen be the son of Jan Dircksz from Bremen?  Did our Jan > Dircksen arrive aboard the De Trouw 1659 with his wife and 3 children?  Did > his first wife pass away and Jan Dircksen than became engaged to Sara Teunis > and he sent for her and she arrived in 1664 on the De Trouw??? > > > > DE TROUW (THE FAITH) 1659 > > > >  57       Jan Dircksen (Dircxsen), from Alckmaer > > > >  58       Mrs. Dircksen (wife) > > > >  59 - 61  three children Dircksen, ages 3/4, 8 and 15 years > > > > DE TROUW (THE FAITH) > > > > Passenger list below Sailed after 13 Feb. 1659 [JJ], on 12 Feb 1659 [NWI], > arrived New Amsterdam before 5 May 1659 > > > > > > Names of special interest to me******* > > > > .           Jan Woutersen, from Ravesteyn; shoemaker, and wife and daughter > > > > .           Catalyntje Cranenburg; maiden > > > > .           Jan van Coppenol, from Remsen; farmer and wife and 2 children > > > > .           Matthys Roelofs, from Denmark,and wife and child > > > > .           Sophia Roeloffs > > > > .           Geertruy Jochems, from Hamburgh; Wife of Claes Claessen from > Amersfoort, now in N. Netherland; and two children > > > > .           Peter Corneliss, from Holsteyn; Labourer ******** > > > > .           Peter Jacobs, from Holsteyn > > > > .           Josyntje Verhagen, from Middelburg, and daughter > > > > .           Saertge Hendricks, from Delft > > > > .           Egbert Meynderts, from Amsterdam, and wife and child and servant > > > > > .           Jan Leurens Noorman and wife ******* > > > > .           Harmen Coerten, from Voorhuysen and wife and 5 children > > > > .           Magalantje Teunis, from Voorhuysen ******* > > > > .           Feytje Dircks ******** > > > > .           Gillis Jansen van Garder and Wife and four children ******** > > > > .           Bastiaen Clement, from Doornick > > > > .           Adriaen Fournoi, from Valenciennes > > > > .           Jannetje Eyckers, from East Friesland > > > > .           Joris Jorissen Townsen, from Redfort; mason > > > > .           Nicholas Gillissen Marschal > > > > .           Wouter gerritsen van Kootuyck > > > > .           Jan Jacobsen, from Utrecht; farmer, and wife, mother and two > children > > > > .           Arent Francken van Iperen > > > > .           Dennys Isacksen, from Wyck by Daurstede > > > > .           Weyntje Martens van Gorehem > > > > .           Vroutje Gerrits, wife of Cosyn Gerritsen; Wheelwright > > > > .           Jan Dircksen, from Alckmaer and Wife and three children > ********* > > > > .           Nettert Jansen, from Embden > > > > .           Epke Jacobs, from Harlingen; farmer and wife and five sons > > > > .           Stoffiel Gerritsen from Laer [ENN: On May 2, 1660 Adriaen van > laer, his brother, settles his account] > > > > .           Jan Meynderts, from Iperen; farmer and wife > > > > .           Jan Barents Ameshof, from Amsterdam > > > > .           Symon Drune from Henegouw > > > > .           Hendrick Harmensen, from Amsterdam > > > > .           Evert Cornellissen from the vicinity of Amersfoort ********* > > > > .           Laurens Jacobs van der Wielen > > > > .           Jannetje Theunis van Ysseltstein ********** > > > > .           Jan Roelofsen, van Naerden; farmer > > > > .           Jacob Hendricks, from the Highland, and maidservant > > > > .           Goossen van Twiller, from New-Kerk > > > > .           Lawrens Janssen, from Wormer ********* > > > > .           Jan Harmens from Amersfoort; Taylor, and wife and four children > > > > .           Evert Marschal; glasier, from Amsterdam and wife and daughter > > > > .           Boele Roelofsen, Joncker, and wife and four children, besides > his Wife's sister and a boy > > > > > > > > Name: Sara Teunis > > > > Marriage Date: 1664 > > > > Marriage Place:  New York City, New York > > > > > > > > Passengers aboard the De Trouw in 1664 > > > > .           Maarcelis Jansen van Bommel; farmer > > > > .           Evert Tack, from the Barony of Breda > > > > .           Lysbet Arens, from Amsterdam, and child [re NWI- child 8 years > old] > > > > .           Johannis Hardenbroeck, from Elberveld, and Wife and four > children [re NWI children were 8,6,5 and 3] > > > > .           Janneken Juriaensen, from Gorcum > > > > .           Corneliss Cornelissen Vernoey, and Wife and sucking child > > > > .           Lysbet de Roode, from Dantzick, Wife of John Saline, and child > [re NWI child was 3 years old] > > > > .           Sara Teunis > > > > We can add the following names as found in Abstracts from Notarial Documents > in the Amsterdam Archives by Pim Nieuwenhuis published in New Netherland > Connections in series Vol. 4:3,4; Vol. 5:1-3 > > > > .           Daniel de Hondecoutre, bachelor, engaged by Pieter van den > Beilcken merchant in Leyden for 4 years to trade on his behalf in New > Netherland [NNC] > > > > .           Norbardus Bodas, soldier from Antwerp, in service of WIC [NNC] > > > >  Did Sara Teunis travel with Lysbet de Roode wife of John Saline? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Linda Schwenn [mailto:schwel@comcast.net] > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 5:35 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Dirk Jansz > > > > I received the information below from Janice Walters in about 2006. I have > > not followed up on any of it and only send it on today because of all the > > current interest. I have NOT documented this information, but have found > > duplication of names on other Ancestry.com trees, including Susan > > Claggett's. Of special interest to me is the addition that he was an officer > > in the military, suggesting to me that soldiering was in the family. > > Another researcher wrote that Dirk was "an officer under William II, Prince > > of Oranje, Count of Nassau," perhaps an example of redundant error...or > > fact? > > > >  *Individual Report for Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* > > > > > >     *Individual Summary:* > > > > *Dirk Jansz Van Arnhem VA* > > > > > > > > > > > >   Sex: > > > > Male > > > > > >   Father: > > > > Jan Derryckssen > > > > > >   Mother: > > > > Gerriken Beecken > > > > > > > > > > > >    *Individual Facts:* > > > > > > > > > > > > > >    Birth: > > > > Abt. 1615 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > > > >   Reference ID: > > > > 33 > > > > > >   Death: > > > > Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > > > >   Military Service: > > > > officer under General Count von Nassau > > > > > > > > > > > >    *Shared Facts:* > > > > *Magdalena Jans* > > > > > > > > > > > >    Marriage: > > > > 22 Apr 1638 in Arnhem, Gelderland, Holland > > > > > >   Reference ID: > > > > 1692 > > > > > >   Children: > > > > Dirrecxken Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  Jan Dirckszen Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  Joris Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  Hendrik Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  Marricken Van Arnhem VA > > > > > > > >  *Notes:* > > > > > >  Person Notes: [jwlaters62[1] VN1.FTW] > > > > > >  Was an officer under General County Von Nassau. > > > > > >  Was a soldier with Rembrandt's brother, Saloman, who was the subject in > > "Man in a Golden Helmet". > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you Arlene for these additional references. I just got a bunch of messages in on rootsweb and some are new to me and others repeated. I am not sure but it looks like the server had a glitch. I am wading through them now. Susan -----Original Message----- From: Arlene Reeves [mailto:arlenevreeves@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:37 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 158 Here are other places besides google books to view some of Rikers books http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%28james%20riker%29 you can download the whole book from this site- if you decide to do this try one- sometimes I've found "search" won't work in a downloaded copy http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Search/Home?checkspelling=true&type=all&lookfo r=james+riker&submit=Find&type=author&sethtftonly=true http://openlibrary.org/search/authors?q=james+riker and you can always go to the "find in a library" , type in your zip code and see if there are hardcopies near you. For example: "The Dutch grants, Harlem patents and tidal creeks : the law applicable to those subjects examined and stated ... with an appendix containing copies of ancient Dutch deeds and records, translated from the originals and authenticated by James Riker : and also, copies of the Harlem patents, and illustrative map, etc." they have at: University of Texas, Tarlton Law Library<http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/oclc/60712640?page=frame&url=http%3A%2F %2Ftallons.law.utexas.edu%2Fsearch%2Fo60712640%26checksum%3D6113cac7fe55e688 67e12e39478d40bb&title=University+of+Texas%2C+Tarlton+Law+Library&linktype=o pac&detail=TXQ%3AUniversity+of+Texas%2C+Tarlton+Law+Library%3AAcademic+Libra ry> Jamail Center for Legal Research AUSTIN, TX 78705 United States- is that near you? HAPPY READING! Arlene PS I always take my camera with me so I don't have to pay for copies. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 6:19 PM, <vannorman-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > 2. Re: Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames > (Susan Claggett) > 3. Re: Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames > (jroguetech@gmail.com) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book > referenceinHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > (dragonshelver@yahoo.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:07:11 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <CD93B5D0C79C41D7B9F527E70D8E25C0@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hahaha! I actual live near Austin, TX now but was born in Indiana. Do we > have a list member that lives in the area that would go to the library to > research the will and any other items of interest? Could we ask the > library to look for the specific will for us by phone? Do they have a > research department? > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:55 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > As I recall, you live in Indiana... Your choices would be car, plane, > or, I would assume, train. For the first, MapQuest. For the latter, > Orbitz. Destination, Jamaica. Not the fun Jamaica, the one in New > York. > > Once there.... > Title: James Riker Collection, 1614-1859 > Control number: Control # R-11 > Open for research without restrictions. Manuscripts are only available > in the Long Island Division Monday through Friday 10am through 5pm. > > Apparently, you'll also need a library card. That'll cost you $50, and > two forms of ID. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > > Great! ?How can we view it? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:38 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division > > Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of > > Memoria. > > > > http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2E > > xml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ > > > > Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, ?<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > >> I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > >> records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > >> could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > >> City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > >> wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > > 24, > >>> 1686. ?Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of > this > >>> timeframe and location? ?I have never searched for wills before and > > really > >>> don't know how to find them. > >>> > >>> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > >>> seems like it was a known fact. ?We also see the interaction of these > > same > >>> people in the church documents. > >>> > >>> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. ?It > fits > >>> together nicely IMO. > >>> > >>> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > >>> interesting and informative: > >>> 1. ? ? [PDF] > >>> > >>> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF < > http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > >>> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > >>> > >>> Susan > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > >>> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > >>> > >>> I've got a few minutes. > >>> > >>> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. ?Calling Jan > >>> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > > conclusion, > >>> one he simply jumped to. ?(The Dutch didn't have a word for > > brother-in-law, > >>> just for starters.) > >>> > >>> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > >>> these old books. ?First, they can be wrong. ?In this case the part > about > >>> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake > on > >>> Riker's part. ?That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > >>> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) ?remarried > and > >>> moved to Boston. ?I worked this out ?three or four years ago with help > > from > >>> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it > would > > be > >>> good for everyone to visit. > >>> > >>> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had > access > > to > >>> info no longer available. ?I can't find the will or any reference to it > >>> other than this one. ?Neither can researchers better than I. > ?Apparently > > it > >>> existed once upon a time but now it's gone. ?Dang! > >>> > >>> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > > families > >>> > >>> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. ?Whether > > this > >>> > >>> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > >>> determine,however. > >>> > >>> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to > Sarah > >>> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > > original > >>> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > >>> > >>> --pete > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > >>> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > >>> > >>> > >>>>I think I found a good reference. ?Of course it may have already been > >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. ?On page 242 Harlem > >>>> (City > >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > > stolen > >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. ?The accused is his > >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen. ?There is lots of good info on the next > >>>> several pages especially 244. > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > >>>> > >>> > > > > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>> > >>>> Yes. ?It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others > not > >>>> so > >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). ?Tryntie > Pieters > >>>> was > >>>> > >>>> his wife. > >>>> > >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of ?the Dutch > >>>> provinces > >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > > Catholic. > >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > > Papist." > >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > > and/or > >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > >>>> --------------. > >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. ?Jan > Dircks > >>>> and > >>>> > >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. ?In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth > Kil > >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. ?It was > lousy > >>>> land (although apparently good swamp) ?and they apparently went back > to > >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. > > ?That's > >>>> the last record of them I can find. > >>>> > >>>> --pete > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Is this the gossiping case? > >>>> > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > >>>> (1st paragraph) > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > > wrote: > >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > > happened > >>>>> on > >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > >>>>> ----------- > >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > > trouble, > >>>>> again, for gossiping. > >>>>> > >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own > counsel. > >>>>> > >>>>> --pete > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know. > >>>>> > >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > >>>>> > >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > >>>>> > >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > > the > >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > > this > >>>>>> is our Sara. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage > record > >>>>>> lists > >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time > belonged > > to > >>>>>> WIC. > >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in > trouble > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > > soldier, > >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > >>>>>>> Neither > >>>>>> in > >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating > leadership > >>>>>>> qualities. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > >>>>>> record > >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > >>>>>> occupation, > >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It > was > > a > >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as > way > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid > to > >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot > him. > >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > > all. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > >>>>>> possibly > >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' > War, > >>>>>> they > >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > > unlikely. > >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > >>>>>>> -------- > >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in > 1664. > >>>>>> Aside > >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > >>>>>> Sara, > >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > >>>>>>> long > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > > Dircks > >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The > >>>>>>> somewhat > >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > >>>>>>> sort > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > >>>>>>> brother > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > >>>>>>> research > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan > >>>>>>> Dircks > >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --pete > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:13:35 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <0BB699C7C16144F2B902DD7328A25D83@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, Maria > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > John I was wondering about this entry. ?Thanks for bringing this to my > > attention. > > > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > > parentsnames > > > > Interesting. No sources though > > > ( > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > > P-0936.html). > > Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > > Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:23:52 -0500 > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTin=dLEib-c341ZEY7ymZUYnq62tJYmFhJhnnWNU@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Abraham and Sara had six children. I'm not sure how Sara Eckerson and > Jan Eckerson are related. I'm sure they are, just haven't gotten that > far. Abram/Abraham was bap. 9 Apr 1673, d. bef. May 1736. Sara was > bap. 4 Oct 1673, d. aft Jul 1737. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, > Maria > > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > > Sara'sparentsnames > > > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> John I was wondering about this entry. ?Thanks for bringing this to my > >> attention. > >> > >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > >> > >> Susan > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > >> parentsnames > >> > >> Interesting. No sources though > >> > > ( > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > >> P-0936.html). > >> Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > >> Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:19:42 +0000 > From: dragonshelver@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book > referenceinHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > > <339017272-1286921982-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2079523965-@b da591.bisx.prod.on.blackberry > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > Look in the catalog of the lds family history library. Many wills are on > microfilm there > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Sender: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:09:38 > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Reply-To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > 24, > > 1686. ?Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this > > timeframe and location? ?I have never searched for wills before and > really > > don't know how to find them. > > > > The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > > seems like it was a known fact. ?We also see the interaction of these > same > > people in the church documents. > > > > I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. ?It fits > > together nicely IMO. > > > > I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > > interesting and informative: > > 1. ? ? [PDF] > > > > THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > > THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > > > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > I've got a few minutes. > > > > Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. ?Calling Jan > > Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > conclusion, > > one he simply jumped to. ?(The Dutch didn't have a word for > brother-in-law, > > just for starters.) > > > > The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > > these old books. ?First, they can be wrong. ?In this case the part about > > Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on > > Riker's part. ?That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > > them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) ?remarried and > > moved to Boston. ?I worked this out ?three or four years ago with help > from > > the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would > be > > good for everyone to visit. > > > > However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access > to > > info no longer available. ?I can't find the will or any reference to it > > other than this one. ?Neither can researchers better than I. ?Apparently > it > > existed once upon a time but now it's gone. ?Dang! > > > > There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > families > > > > with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. ?Whether > this > > > > is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > > determine,however. > > > > Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah > > Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > original > > settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > > > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > > Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > > >>I think I found a good reference. ?Of course it may have already been > >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. ?On page 242 Harlem > >> (City > >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > stolen > >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. ?The accused is his > >> brother in law Jan Teunissen. ?There is lots of good info on the next > >> several pages especially 244. > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > >> > > > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Susan Van Orman Claggett > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >> > >> Yes. ?It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > >> so > >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). ?Tryntie Pieters > >> was > >> > >> his wife. > >> > >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of ?the Dutch > >> provinces > >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > Catholic. > >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > Papist." > >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > and/or > >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > >> --------------. > >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. ?Jan Dircks > >> and > >> > >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. ?In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. ?It was lousy > >> land (although apparently good swamp) ?and they apparently went back to > >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. > ?That's > >> the last record of them I can find. > >> > >> --pete > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >> > >> > >> Is this the gossiping case? > >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > >> (1st paragraph) > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > happened > >>> on > >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > >>> ----------- > >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > trouble, > >>> again, for gossiping. > >>> > >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > >>> > >>> --pete > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>> > >>> > >>> I don't know. > >>> > >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > >>> > >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? > >>> > >>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > >>> > >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > the > >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > this > >>>> is our Sara. > >>>> > >>>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >>>> > >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > >>>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. > >>>>> > >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record > >>>> lists > >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged > to > >>>> WIC. > >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > >>>>> > >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble > >>>>> for > >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > soldier, > >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > >>>>> Neither > >>>> in > >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership > >>>>> qualities. > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > >>>> record > >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > >>>> occupation, > >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was > a > >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > >>>>> of > >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to > >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. > >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > all. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > >>>> possibly > >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, > >>>> they > >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > unlikely. > >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > >>>>> -------- > >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. > >>>> Aside > >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > >>>> Sara, > >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > >>>>> long > >>>> one > >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > >>>>> > >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > Dircks > >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The > >>>>> somewhat > >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > >>>>> sort > >>>> of > >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > >>>>> brother > >>>> or > >>>>> some sort of cousin. > >>>>> > >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > >>>>> research > >>>>> I > >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan > >>>>> Dircks > >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > >>>>> > >>>>> --pete > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 158 > ***************************************** > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Excerpt from "History of Sheboygan County, Wisconsin, past and present," Volume 2 By Carl Zillier, S.J. Clarke Publishing Company [Google Books] C. H. Pape is the popular and efficient manager of the Port Huron Salt Dock Company's interests at Sheboygan, Wisconsin, a position which he has maintained with credit to himself since the beginning of 1900. He is a native of Hanover, Germany, having been born in the year 1839, and is the son of Conrad Pape, who emigrated with his family to Sheboygan in 1848. His father was by profession a shipbuilder. After establishing his home in Sheboygan he continued to live at that place during the remainder of his life. Mr. Pape was married in the city of Rantoul, Illinois, to Miss Lizzie J. Van Arnam, a daughter of Newcomb J. Van Arnam and Martha Allen (Wescott) Van Arnam, both of New York state. The parents lived in New York city, where Mrs. Pape was born, for about ten years and then moved to New Orleans. Louisiana, where the mother passed away in 1851. Mr. Van Arnam and his two children, Lizzie J. and John, then removed with the grandparents, Abraham and Jane Van Arnam, to Sheboygan. In 1852 the father went to California in the wake of the great stream of gold seekers, but returned to Sheboygan in 1857 and remained here until the outbreak of the Civil war in 1861. During the war he spent his time between St. Louis, Missouri; Memphis, Tennessee; and Cincinnati, Ohio; taking contracts for army supplies. The father survived his wife for over forty years, passing away in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, in 1892. To Mr. and Mrs. Pape four children have been born: George N., of Sheboygan; Mattie W., the wife of Peter Reiss; Jennie, the wife of Arthur Hayssen; and Carrie, the wife of Edwin Imig. The three last named are also residents of Sheboygan. Note: Abraham is enumerated in Sheboygan in 1860 living with his daughter Sarah and her family. Saint John stayed in Illinois and married Lilly Irwin. On the first known ancestors list Newcomb is the N with a daughter Elizabeth and son John.

Here are other places besides google books to view some of Rikers books http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%28james%20riker%29 you can download the whole book from this site- if you decide to do this try one- sometimes I've found "search" won't work in a downloaded copy http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Search/Home?checkspelling=true&type=all&lookfor=james+riker&submit=Find&type=author&sethtftonly=true http://openlibrary.org/search/authors?q=james+riker and you can always go to the "find in a library" , type in your zip code and see if there are hardcopies near you. For example: "The Dutch grants, Harlem patents and tidal creeks : the law applicable to those subjects examined and stated ... with an appendix containing copies of ancient Dutch deeds and records, translated from the originals and authenticated by James Riker : and also, copies of the Harlem patents, and illustrative map, etc." they have at: University of Texas, Tarlton Law Library<http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/oclc/60712640?page=frame&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftallons.law.utexas.edu%2Fsearch%2Fo60712640%26checksum%3D6113cac7fe55e68867e12e39478d40bb&title=University+of+Texas%2C+Tarlton+Law+Library&linktype=opac&detail=TXQ%3AUniversity+of+Texas%2C+Tarlton+Law+Library%3AAcademic+Library> Jamail Center for Legal Research AUSTIN, TX 78705 United States- is that near you? HAPPY READING! Arlene PS I always take my camera with me so I don't have to pay for copies. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 6:19 PM, <vannorman-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals (Susan Claggett) > 2. Re: Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames > (Susan Claggett) > 3. Re: Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames > (jroguetech@gmail.com) > 4. Re: Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book > referenceinHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > (dragonshelver@yahoo.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:07:11 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <CD93B5D0C79C41D7B9F527E70D8E25C0@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hahaha! I actual live near Austin, TX now but was born in Indiana. Do we > have a list member that lives in the area that would go to the library to > research the will and any other items of interest? Could we ask the > library to look for the specific will for us by phone? Do they have a > research department? > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:55 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > As I recall, you live in Indiana... Your choices would be car, plane, > or, I would assume, train. For the first, MapQuest. For the latter, > Orbitz. Destination, Jamaica. Not the fun Jamaica, the one in New > York. > > Once there.... > Title: James Riker Collection, 1614-1859 > Control number: Control # R-11 > Open for research without restrictions. Manuscripts are only available > in the Long Island Division Monday through Friday 10am through 5pm. > > Apparently, you'll also need a library card. That'll cost you $50, and > two forms of ID. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > > > Great! ?How can we view it? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:38 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division > > Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of > > Memoria. > > > > http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2E > > xml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ > > > > Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, ?<jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > >> I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > >> records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > >> could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > >> City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > >> wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > > 24, > >>> 1686. ?Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of > this > >>> timeframe and location? ?I have never searched for wills before and > > really > >>> don't know how to find them. > >>> > >>> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > >>> seems like it was a known fact. ?We also see the interaction of these > > same > >>> people in the church documents. > >>> > >>> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. ?It > fits > >>> together nicely IMO. > >>> > >>> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > >>> interesting and informative: > >>> 1. ? ? [PDF] > >>> > >>> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF < > http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > >>> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > >>> > >>> Susan > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > >>> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > >>> > >>> I've got a few minutes. > >>> > >>> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. ?Calling Jan > >>> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > > conclusion, > >>> one he simply jumped to. ?(The Dutch didn't have a word for > > brother-in-law, > >>> just for starters.) > >>> > >>> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > >>> these old books. ?First, they can be wrong. ?In this case the part > about > >>> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake > on > >>> Riker's part. ?That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > >>> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) ?remarried > and > >>> moved to Boston. ?I worked this out ?three or four years ago with help > > from > >>> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it > would > > be > >>> good for everyone to visit. > >>> > >>> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had > access > > to > >>> info no longer available. ?I can't find the will or any reference to it > >>> other than this one. ?Neither can researchers better than I. > ?Apparently > > it > >>> existed once upon a time but now it's gone. ?Dang! > >>> > >>> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > > families > >>> > >>> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. ?Whether > > this > >>> > >>> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > >>> determine,however. > >>> > >>> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to > Sarah > >>> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > > original > >>> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > >>> > >>> --pete > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > >>> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > >>> > >>> > >>>>I think I found a good reference. ?Of course it may have already been > >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. ?On page 242 Harlem > >>>> (City > >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > > stolen > >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. ?The accused is his > >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen. ?There is lots of good info on the next > >>>> several pages especially 244. > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > >>>> > >>> > > > > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>> > >>>> Yes. ?It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others > not > >>>> so > >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). ?Tryntie > Pieters > >>>> was > >>>> > >>>> his wife. > >>>> > >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of ?the Dutch > >>>> provinces > >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > > Catholic. > >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > > Papist." > >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > > and/or > >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > >>>> --------------. > >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. ?Jan > Dircks > >>>> and > >>>> > >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. ?In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth > Kil > >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. ?It was > lousy > >>>> land (although apparently good swamp) ?and they apparently went back > to > >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. > > ?That's > >>>> the last record of them I can find. > >>>> > >>>> --pete > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Is this the gossiping case? > >>>> > http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > >>>> (1st paragraph) > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > > wrote: > >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > > happened > >>>>> on > >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > >>>>> ----------- > >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > > trouble, > >>>>> again, for gossiping. > >>>>> > >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own > counsel. > >>>>> > >>>>> --pete > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know. > >>>>> > >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > >>>>> > >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > >>>>> > >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > > the > >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > > this > >>>>>> is our Sara. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage > record > >>>>>> lists > >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time > belonged > > to > >>>>>> WIC. > >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in > trouble > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > > soldier, > >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > >>>>>>> Neither > >>>>>> in > >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating > leadership > >>>>>>> qualities. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > >>>>>> record > >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > >>>>>> occupation, > >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It > was > > a > >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as > way > >>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid > to > >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot > him. > >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > > all. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > >>>>>> possibly > >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' > War, > >>>>>> they > >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > > unlikely. > >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > >>>>>>> -------- > >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in > 1664. > >>>>>> Aside > >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > >>>>>> Sara, > >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > >>>>>>> long > >>>>>> one > >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > > Dircks > >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The > >>>>>>> somewhat > >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > >>>>>>> sort > >>>>>> of > >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > >>>>>>> brother > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > >>>>>>> research > >>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan > >>>>>>> Dircks > >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --pete > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:13:35 -0500 > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <0BB699C7C16144F2B902DD7328A25D83@vantk1o0kgylz7> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, Maria > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > John I was wondering about this entry. ?Thanks for bringing this to my > > attention. > > > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > > parentsnames > > > > Interesting. No sources though > > > ( > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > > P-0936.html). > > Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > > Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:23:52 -0500 > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <AANLkTin=dLEib-c341ZEY7ymZUYnq62tJYmFhJhnnWNU@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Abraham and Sara had six children. I'm not sure how Sara Eckerson and > Jan Eckerson are related. I'm sure they are, just haven't gotten that > far. Abram/Abraham was bap. 9 Apr 1673, d. bef. May 1736. Sara was > bap. 4 Oct 1673, d. aft Jul 1737. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, > Maria > > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > > Sara'sparentsnames > > > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >> John I was wondering about this entry. ?Thanks for bringing this to my > >> attention. > >> > >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > >> > >> Susan > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > >> parentsnames > >> > >> Interesting. No sources though > >> > > ( > http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > >> P-0936.html). > >> Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > >> Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 22:19:42 +0000 > From: dragonshelver@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book > referenceinHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > > <339017272-1286921982-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2079523965-@bda591.bisx.prod.on.blackberry > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > Look in the catalog of the lds family history library. Many wills are on > microfilm there > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Sender: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:09:38 > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Reply-To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > 24, > > 1686. ?Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this > > timeframe and location? ?I have never searched for wills before and > really > > don't know how to find them. > > > > The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > > seems like it was a known fact. ?We also see the interaction of these > same > > people in the church documents. > > > > I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara. ?It fits > > together nicely IMO. > > > > I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > > interesting and informative: > > 1. ? ? [PDF] > > > > THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > > THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > > > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > I've got a few minutes. > > > > Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible. ?Calling Jan > > Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > conclusion, > > one he simply jumped to. ?(The Dutch didn't have a word for > brother-in-law, > > just for starters.) > > > > The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > > these old books. ?First, they can be wrong. ?In this case the part about > > Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on > > Riker's part. ?That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > > them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters) ?remarried and > > moved to Boston. ?I worked this out ?three or four years ago with help > from > > the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would > be > > good for everyone to visit. > > > > However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access > to > > info no longer available. ?I can't find the will or any reference to it > > other than this one. ?Neither can researchers better than I. ?Apparently > it > > existed once upon a time but now it's gone. ?Dang! > > > > There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > families > > > > with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640. ?Whether > this > > > > is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > > determine,however. > > > > Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah > > Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > original > > settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > > > > --pete > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > > Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > > > > >>I think I found a good reference. ?Of course it may have already been > >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting. ?On page 242 Harlem > >> (City > >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > stolen > >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier. ?The accused is his > >> brother in law Jan Teunissen. ?There is lots of good info on the next > >> several pages especially 244. > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir > >> > > > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 > >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Susan Van Orman Claggett > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM > >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >> > >> Yes. ?It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not > >> so > >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg). ?Tryntie Pieters > >> was > >> > >> his wife. > >> > >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of ?the Dutch > >> provinces > >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > Catholic. > >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > Papist." > >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > and/or > >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church > >> --------------. > >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing. ?Jan Dircks > >> and > >> > >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665. ?In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil > >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour. ?It was lousy > >> land (although apparently good swamp) ?and they apparently went back to > >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. > ?That's > >> the last record of them I can find. > >> > >> --pete > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM > >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >> > >> > >> Is this the gossiping case? > >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up > >> (1st paragraph) > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: > >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular > >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > happened > >>> on > >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. > >>> ----------- > >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > trouble, > >>> again, for gossiping. > >>> > >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. > >>> > >>> --pete > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> > >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) > >>> > >>> > >>> I don't know. > >>> > >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 > >>> > >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? > >>> > >>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false > >>> > >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's > >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the > >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) > >>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett > >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > the > >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > this > >>>> is our Sara. > >>>> > >>>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM > >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource > >>>> > >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: > >>>> > >> > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 > >>>> > >> > > > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= > >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. > >>>>> > >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record > >>>> lists > >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged > to > >>>> WIC. > >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). > >>>>> > >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble > >>>>> for > >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > soldier, > >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. > >>>>> Neither > >>>> in > >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership > >>>>> qualities. > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any > >>>> record > >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and > >>>> occupation, > >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was > a > >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way > >>>>> of > >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to > >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. > >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > all. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and > >>>> possibly > >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, > >>>> they > >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > unlikely. > >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. > >>>>> -------- > >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. > >>>> Aside > >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, > >>>> Sara, > >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as > >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a > >>>>> long > >>>> one > >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. > >>>>> > >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > Dircks > >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a > >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The > >>>>> somewhat > >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some > >>>>> sort > >>>> of > >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, > >>>>> brother > >>>> or > >>>>> some sort of cousin. > >>>>> > >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original > >>>>> research > >>>>> I > >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan > >>>>> Dircks > >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. > >>>>> > >>>>> --pete > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >>> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the VANNORMAN list administrator, send an email to > VANNORMAN-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the VANNORMAN mailing list, send an email to > VANNORMAN@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of VANNORMAN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 158 > ***************************************** >

Look in the catalog of the lds family history library. Many wills are on microfilm there Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com Sender: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:09:38 To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> Reply-To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but I would think generally they would be found in the probate court records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, > 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this > timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really > don't know how to find them. > > The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen > seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same > people in the church documents. > > I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits > together nicely IMO. > > I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very > interesting and informative: > 1.     [PDF] > > THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> > THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I've got a few minutes. > > Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan > Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, > one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, > just for starters.) > > The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about > these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about > Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on > Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of > them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and > moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from > the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be > good for everyone to visit. > > However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to > info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it > other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it > existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! > > There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families > > with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this > > is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to > determine,however. > > Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah > Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original > settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. > > --pete > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM > Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in > Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > >>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >> (City >> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >> several pages especially 244. >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >> >> Regards, >> >> Susan Van Orman Claggett >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >> so >> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >> was >> >> his wife. >> >> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >> provinces >> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >> --------------. >> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >> and >> >> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >> the last record of them I can find. >> >> --pete >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >> >> >> Is this the gossiping case? >> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >> (1st paragraph) >> >> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>> on >>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>> ----------- >>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>> again, for gossiping. >>> >>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> I don't know. >>> >>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>> >>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>> >>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>> >>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>> is our Sara. >>>> >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>> >>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>> >>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>> lists >>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>> WIC. >>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>> >>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>> for >>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>> Neither >>>> in >>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>> qualities. >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>> record >>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>> >>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>> occupation, >>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>> of >>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>> >>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>> possibly >>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>> they >>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>> -------- >>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>> Aside >>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>> Sara, >>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>> long >>>> one >>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>> >>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>> >>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>> somewhat >>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>> sort >>>> of >>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>> brother >>>> or >>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>> research >>>>> I >>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>> Dircks >>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

* Jan Teunissen- Brooklyn, NY * * Breukelen and Brooklyn: The Dutch Village and American City Date Article Posted 10/08/2007 The Indian name of the territory of Brooklyn was "Meryckawick," or "the sandy place." The name was probably first applied to the bottom land or beach, and what is now known as the Wallabout, was called the "Bay of Meryckawick." Long Island was called Seawanhaky, or the "Isle of shells." It was in the year 1636 that the first land was purchased from the Indians on this particular part of Long island. At that time William Adriaense Bennet and Jackques Bentyn purchased a tract of 930 acres of land at Gowanus. The next year John Jansen de Rapalie bought 335 acres of land in the "bend of Meryckawick," or Wallabout. The land thus purchased was mostly low land or flats, devoid of trees, and having a dark colored surface soil. It had undergone some rude cultivation by the Indians, who had raised maize on it, and was ready for the plough. On this account it was most sought for and purchased by the original purchasers, who being natives of the low and level lands of Holland and Belgium, were inexperienced in the clearing of forests. This occupation of land thus begun by Bennet and Bentyn steadily progressed until in ten years nearly the whole water front from Newtown Creek to the southerly side of Gowanus Bay was in the possession of individuals who were engaged in its cultivation. Small hamlets, or settlements, also grew up at the original centres of settlement, and were known as "the Gowanus," "the Wallabout," and "the Ferry." About a mile to the southeast of the ferry, and between the other two settlements named, on the road that led to Midwout, or Flatbush, the FIRST SETTLERS OF THE VILLAGE OF BREUKELEN, from which the city of today derived its name, located. They were Jan Evertsen Bout, Huyck Aertsen, Jacob Stoffelsen, Pieter Cornelissen, and Joris Dircksen, and others of less note. They settled on either side of the road which is now Fulton street, near Smith and Hoyt streets. They called the settlement Breukelen after the ancient village of that name in Holland, about eighteen miles from Amsterdam. The settlers of Breukelen chose Jan Evertsen, Bout and Huyck Aerttsen, as Schepens, or magistrates, and expressed to the Colonial Council their intention to "found a town at their own expense," The following was the text of the commission: "We, William Kieft, Director General, and the Council residing in New Netherland, on behalf of the High and Mighty Lords States General of the United Netherlands, His Highness of Orange and the Honorable Directors of the General Incorporated West India Company, to all those who shall see these presents or hear them read, greeting: "Whereas, Jan Eversen Bout and Huyck Aertson, from Rossum, were, on the 21st of may last, unanimously chosen by those interested of Breukelen, situate on Long island, as Schepers to decide all questions which may arise, as they shall deem proper, according to the exemptions of New Netherland, granted to particular Colonies, which election is subscribed by them, with express stipulation that if any one refuse to submit in the premises aforesaid to the above mentioned Jan Evertsen and Huyck Aertson, he shall forfeit the right he claims to land in the allotment of Breukelen, and in order that every thing may be done with more authority, we, the Director and Council aforesaid, have therefore authorized and appointed, and do hereby authorize the said Jan Evertsen and Huyck Aertsen to be Schepans of Breukelen, and in case Jan Evertsen and Huyck Aertsen do hereafter find the labor too onerous, they shall be at liberty to select two more from among the inhabitants of Breukelen to adjoin them to themselves. We charge and command every inhabitant of Breukelen to acknowledge and respect the above mentioned Jan Evertsen and Huyck Aertsen as their Schepens, and if any one shall be found to exhibit contumaciousness toward them, he shall forfeit his share as above stated. Thus done in Council in Fort Amsterdam, New Netherland." Shortly afterward Jan Teunissen was appointed schout or constable of the village. The Dutch village thus started continued to be a slow going Dutch village for about one hundred and fifty years. Its population in 1738, ninety-two years after its settlement, was only 721. It was not until about 1800 that it began to look like an English or American town, and its great growth has been within fifty years. Its population is now estimated at 450,000. Breukelen In Holland It was thus described by Hon. H.C. Murphy, Minister to the Hague, in a letter to the Eagle, in 1859: "The village lies for the most part between the main road and the stream, and consists of three or four hundred houses, accommodating about 1,500 inhabitants. It is a very old place. The houses are small and dull with age, the few streets which intersect it are very irregular and the people apparently without enterprise or thrift. There are a few large houses, especially three or four, intended for refreshments or for resorts for the village topers. The Reformed Church is rather a commodious building with a handsome spire. But upon the whole the impression of the interior of the town was not pleasing. We went through the main road in both directions, for as we were probably the first natives of Brooklyn who had ever visited it at least so far as any known record goes we determined to see it thoroughly. We found, when we got out to the folds, snug residences surrounded with flowers and duck ponds, and everything around them in perfect neatness and order. On one side of the village we entered a little covert of shrubbery, laid out in walks and containing perhaps half an acre of ground. This was the village park, a sign of living taste, and we began to have a better feeling about the place. We at length crossed the bridge which spans the Vecht, and connects the two communities of Breukelen Nijenrodes and Breukelen St. Pieters. It is in the former that the village of Breukelen is situated; the latter is entirely a rural district. The view from the point we had now reached was charming. Nothing can exceed the quiet beauty of the scene. The Vecht is about an hundred yards wide, and its waters flow sluggishly along an unchanged level from one end of the year to the other, meandering through green meadows and in front of plain but substantial country house, which show every sign of comfort as well as antiquity. The village reposes upon it a picture of perfect indolence. All along the margin of the river are kispels or the houses belonging to the dwellings of the town; though these Summer houses are the least ornamental, as a whole, that we have seen anywhere, being, without exception, plain square buildings, ten or twelve feet either way. A little garden connects them with the houses, which are not much larger, and in the midst of which, towering high over all, rises the church spire. I have before alluded to the practice of giving a name to every residence which can raise a kispel. It prevails here as elsewhere, and each one has its designation accordingly painted upon it, such as Vredo Veche, Vechten dorp, Vechten hof, Boom en bosh, and the like. Some have names of a Greek origin apparently, as Hodorama and Potorama. On the side of the river the east side, which we had now reached and directly opposite the village, stands the ancient Castle of Gunterstein, the abode formerly of Oldenbarnweld, venerable martyr to parly vengeance. It has been modernized, the towers and turrets have been removed, and it now presents a perfect pattern of one of that class of buildings in our country which delights in white paint and a cupola in the middle of the roof. It is, however, surrounded still by a moat, and has fine large trees in the park behind it. Breukelen cannot be considered a celebrity, unless it may acquire a reflected luster from its greater namesake. it has given birth to no genius whose name is great even within the circumscribed limits of these provinces. It is, however, famous for its antiquity, if we may credit the marvelous, but still, well authenticated fact, that in rebuilding the tower of the church, 150 years ago, they discovered, under the foundation, coffins of stone, eight, ten and twelve feet long, containing the bones of a gigantic race of men, whose existence is mere ancient than tradition. The town lies in the midst of a marshy district, and hence its name, for Breukelen, pronounced Brurkeler, means marsh land. And on this point I may quote a writer, with whom all the Dutch authorities on the subject concur, inasmuch as our home chroniclers have labored under a misapprehension upon the subject. "In all probability," says the author of the 'Kabinet van Nederlandsche en Kleefsche Outheden, 'the name has the same origin as Manvssen_namely, from its marshy and watery turf lands; and although the name is spelled in ancient documents and letters Bracola, Broecke, Broeckede, Broicklede, and Brocklandia, they all indicate one and the same origin.' "There are some curious points of coincidence, both as regards the name and situation of the Dutch Breukelen and our Brooklyn. The name with us was originally applied exclusively to the hamlet which grew up along the main road now embraced within Fulton street and between Smith street and Jackson street, and we must, therefore, not confound it with the settlements at the Wallabout, Gowanus and the ferry, which were entirely distinct and were not embraced within the general name of Brooklyn until after the organization of the township of that name by the British colonial government. Those of our citizens who remember the lands on Fulton street, near Nevins street and Dekalb avenue, before the changes which were produced by the filling in of those streets, will recollect that their original character was marshy and springy, being, in fact, the bed of the valley which received the drain of the hills extending on either side of it from the Wallabout to Gowanus Bay. This would lead almost to the conclusion that the name was given on account of the locality, but though we have very imperfect accounts as to who were the first settlers of Brooklyn proper, still reasoning from analogy in the cases of New Utrecht and New Amersfoort, we cannot probably err in supposing that Brooklyn owes its name to the circumstance that its first settlers wished to preserve in it a memento of their homes and Fatherland. After the English conquest there was a continual struggle between the Dutch and English orthography. Any one who will take the trouble to consult the Colonial laws and our county records will find quite as great variety of spelling the name in them as in the Dutch chronicles of Breucklen. Thus it is spelled Bruckylyn, Breuckland, Brucklyn, Broucklyn, Brookland, Brookline, and several other ways. At the end of the last century it settled down into the present Brooklyn. In this form it still retains sufficiently its original signification of the marsh or brookland." Webs ite:The History Box.comArticle Name: Breukelen and Brooklyn: The Dutch Village and American CityResearcher/TranscriberMiriam Medina Source: 1640 New York, New York 6306 Teunissen, Jan Also in no. 8360, "Settlers in Rensselaerswyck"; no. 714, Boyer, Ship Passenger Lists, New York and New Jersey, pp. 38-45; and in no. 9143, Tepper, New World Immigrants, vol. 1, pp. 21-31. See index for other references. O'CALLAGHAN, EDMUND BAILEY. "Names of Settlers in Rensselaerswyck from 1630 to 1646; Compiled from the Books of Monthly Wages and Other Mss." In History of New Netherland; or, New York under the Dutch. New York: D. Appleton & Co., 1846. Vol. 1, pp. 433-441. 439

The list for Sara wouldn't be her. I base this on... well, on Pete said so. I've found all the baptism records for Jans and Sara's kids. I found most for his grandkids, I think, but I'm not so sure on that. But searching for Sara or Jan in New Amsterdam baptism records will be a dead end. If Pete hasn't found it in 15 years, I for one am not willing to spend 16 years to prove him wrong. The only real hope for new information on Jan would be to find a will (doubtful they left one, considering their social status)... Or find a military record for Jan placing him in Arnhem, or linking him to the ship De Trouw, or some other clue that links him to our Jan. Maybe some way to find him, but only if his birth place could be nailed down, and that's not realistic without knowing that to begin with. Another possibility, of course, is nailing down Sara and finding the marriage record (doubtful without some new info on Sara, since, again, Pete has presumably exhausted all . For Sara, there may be hope, by linking her to Jan Theussen, but if such a confirmation exists, it won't be in the common records (baptisms, tax records, book of court records). Again, Pete having spend so many years, if there's anything, it'd have to be something he hasn't seen. Jan Theussen's will, or some such like that. For their kids, so far I've found: Jan+Hester Fonda - 6 kids Abraham+Sara Eckerson - 6 kids Mary+Jan Eckerson - 8 kids Catharina+Robberd Borsey (not sure of spelling; Borsey, Borsie, Bossie) - 5 kids According to Pete, there's a Helen that may match Magdalena, I believe he said. I have not looked into Helen/Maggie. If you need the bap. or mar. records for any of the above, including the grandkids, at least the ones I've numerated above, I can provide them. I also have not tried to find and notate all the records where Jan and Sara's kids/grandkids have been witnesses. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > http://longislandgenealogy.com/baptisms/baps.html > > > > Baptismal records for the children of Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara > Theunis > > > > 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > > 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria > Wouters > > 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen > Duyts, Mayken Laurens > > 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna > Le Maistre > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, > Tryntie Hercks > > 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, > Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters > 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, > Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters > > > > > > I searched for all Sara's from 1639 thru 1730 and below are the Sara's that > looked interesting to me possibly relating to our family tree. > >  1659 Dec 21; , Sara Dircks de Noorman; Sara; > > 1661 Apr 10; Hendrick Janszen, Sara Thomas; Margariet; Jan de Jong, Anna > Loockermans > > 1662 Dec 17; Pieter Casparszen Van Naerden, Aefje Jans; Tryntie; Sara > Pieters > > 1663 May 30; Arent Dirckszen, Marie; Sara; Marie > > 1663 Sep 30; Jan Tibout, Sara Van der Vlucht; Theunis; Evert Pieterszen, Jan > Theuniszen, Tryntie Rodenburg > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > 1678 Mar 11; Hendrick Janszen, Sara Thomas; Aeltie; Jan der Val, Catharina > Van Courtlant > > 1680 Apr 17; Jan Thomaszen, Apollonia Cornelis; Margariet; Albert > Leenartszen, Sara Thomas > > 1684 Nov 26; Arent Fredericxen [Blom], Sara Theunis; Theunis; Theunis > Janszen Coevers, Lysbeth Fredricx > > 1685 Aug 09; Cornelis Ver Duyn, Saertie Hendricx; Jacob; Hendrick Janszen > Van Feurden, Sara Thomas > > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, Maria > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > 1703 Dec 05; Abram Van Arnem, Sara Eckeson; Isaac; Vincent de Lamontagne, > Appalonia Swits > > 1704 Feb 20; Robberd Borsey, Catharina Van Aren [Aernem]; Sara; Abraham Van > Aren [Aernem], Maritie Van Aren [Aernem] > > 1705 Jul 15; Abraham Van Arnem, Sara Eckeson; Isaac; Folkert Heermans, > Margrietje Eckeson > > 1705 Dec 09; Robberd Borsie, Catharina Van Aren [Aernem]; Sara; Willem > Waldron Jr., Marretje Roseboom > > 1709 Oct 16; Harmanus Van Gelder, Teuntje Idesse; Cornelia; Jacob Hassing, > Sara Theunis > > 1710 Oct 08; Marinus Roelofse, Dina Theunis [Iedesse]; Jan; Willem Echt, > Sara Theunis wife of Meyndert Burger > > 1715 Oct 12; Jeremiah Borres, Cornelia Eckeson; Maria; Thomas Montanje, Sara > Van Aarnem > > 1723 Aug 28; Petrus Van Tilburg, Sara Ward; Elizabeth; Pieter Van Tilburg, > Catharina Teller > > > > Other names of interest that could provide us with clues (pieces of the > puzzle): > > 1640 Dec 16; Burger Joriszen, Engeltje Mans; Catharyn; Gilles Pieterszen, > Teunis Janszen, Teuntje Broecks, Maritie Jans > > 1642 Dec 14; Borger Joriszen, Engeltje Mans; Maryken; Teunis Janszen-sail > maker, Jillis Pieterszen, Mr. Timm, Maryken Philips > > 1644 Feb 04; Paulus Janszen Van Vlissingen; Evert; Jan Dirckszen Van Bremen, > Anthony Ferdinando, Abraham Jacobszen, Annetje Thomas > > 1644 Feb 28; Jan Dirckszen Van Bremen; Tietje; Harmen Arentszen, Claes > Cooren, Hendrick Westercamp backer, Annetje Gerrits > > 1650 Mar 27; Cornelis Teuniszen; Teunis; Grietie Backers > > 1651 Feb 26; Tobias Teuniszen; Teunis; Jan Teuniszen, Tryntie Van der Burg > > 1651 Jul 09; Cornelis Claeszen-Swiss, Ariaentie Cornelis; Cornelis; Tobias > Teuniszen, Leendert Arentszen, Jillis Janszen, Cornelis Croesen and his wife > > 1652 Feb 25; Jan Dirckszen; Johannes; Hendrick Hendrickszen, Isaac > Grevenraedt, Christina Andries, Grietie Jans > > 1655 Jul 04; Hendrick Siboutszen, Weyntie Teunis; Teunis; Arie Dirckszen, > Jochem Caljer, Teunis Teuniszen, Belitje Jacobs, Susanna Jans > > 1657 Mar 25; Jan Dirckszen de Meyer, Tryntie Grevenraets; Pieter; Grietie de > Riemer > > 1657 Apr 29; Fredrick Arentszen, Margriet Pieters; Arent; Pieter Jacobszen > Marius, Wyntie Van der Vin > > 1657 Jul 08; Adolf Pieterszen Van der Groest, Aefje Dircx; Pieter; Cornelis > Setten, Lysbeth Setten, Hendricks Van de Water, Annetje Arents > > 1659 Aug 17; Fredrick Arentszen, Margriet Pieters; Lysbeth; Cornelis > Pluvier, Johannes Becks, Elsje Thymens > > 1660 Oct 31; Gerrit Janszen Roos, Tryntie Arents; Gelyn; Boele Roelofszen, > Bayken Arents > > 1661 Feb 06; Boele Roelofszen, Bayken Arents; Hendrick; Gerrit Janszen Roos, > Tryntie Arents > > 1662 Oct 08; Boele Roelofszen, Bayken Arents; Tryntie; Gerrit Janszen Roos, > Tryntie Arents > > 1662 Dec 03; Denys Isaacszen Van Hartvelt, Lysbeth; Lysbeth; Jan Dirckszen > Meyer, Tryntie Grevenraet > > 1663 Feb 25; Jan Dirckszen Meyer, Tryntie Grevenraets; Elsje; Hendrick Van > der Wallen, Metje Grevenraet > > 1664 Mar 05; Jan Teuniszen, Marie Jans; Theunis; Jan Spiegelsaen, Gerrit > Lambertszen > > 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > > 1665 Apr 10; Gerrit Janszen Roos, Tryntie Arents; Aefje; Boelen Roelofszen, > Emerensje Van Zluys, Bayken Arents > > 1667 Feb 27; Gerrit Janszen Roos, Tryntie Arents; Aeltie; Jan Vinge, Tryntie > Roelofs > > 1689 Nov 24; Pieter Jansz Van Tilburg, Lysbeth Frans [Van Hoogten]; Frans > [Hoogten]; Jan Teuniszen Van Tilburg, Maryken Frans [Hoogten] > > 1690 Feb 16; Jacob Van Tilburg, Grietje Kermer; Tryntie; Jan Janszen Van > Tilburg, Tryntie Jans > > 1691 Aug 02; Hendrick Kermer, Annetje Thomas; Thomas; Jacob Van Tilburg, > Maryken Duycking > > 1693 Mar 12; Johan Van Tilburg, Anna Maria Van Giesen; Theunis; Jan Van > Tilburg, Adriaentie his wife > > 1694 Dec 30; Jacobus de Waeron, Anna Gansevoort; Ariaentie; Jan Theunis Van > Tilburg, Debora de Waeron > > 1704 Dec 10; Marinus Roelofse, Dina Theunisse [Iedesse]; Abraham; Abraham > Van Bremen, Maritie [Lansing] wife of Huybert Van den Berg > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

http://longislandgenealogy.com/baptisms/baps.html Baptismal records for the children of Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria Wouters 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, Mayken Laurens 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna Le Maistre 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, Tryntie Hercks 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters I searched for all Sara's from 1639 thru 1730 and below are the Sara's that looked interesting to me possibly relating to our family tree. 1659 Dec 21; , Sara Dircks de Noorman; Sara; 1661 Apr 10; Hendrick Janszen, Sara Thomas; Margariet; Jan de Jong, Anna Loockermans 1662 Dec 17; Pieter Casparszen Van Naerden, Aefje Jans; Tryntie; Sara Pieters 1663 May 30; Arent Dirckszen, Marie; Sara; Marie 1663 Sep 30; Jan Tibout, Sara Van der Vlucht; Theunis; Evert Pieterszen, Jan Theuniszen, Tryntie Rodenburg 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden 1678 Mar 11; Hendrick Janszen, Sara Thomas; Aeltie; Jan der Val, Catharina Van Courtlant 1680 Apr 17; Jan Thomaszen, Apollonia Cornelis; Margariet; Albert Leenartszen, Sara Thomas 1684 Nov 26; Arent Fredericxen [Blom], Sara Theunis; Theunis; Theunis Janszen Coevers, Lysbeth Fredricx 1685 Aug 09; Cornelis Ver Duyn, Saertie Hendricx; Jacob; Hendrick Janszen Van Feurden, Sara Thomas 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, Maria Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen 1703 Dec 05; Abram Van Arnem, Sara Eckeson; Isaac; Vincent de Lamontagne, Appalonia Swits 1704 Feb 20; Robberd Borsey, Catharina Van Aren [Aernem]; Sara; Abraham Van Aren [Aernem], Maritie Van Aren [Aernem] 1705 Jul 15; Abraham Van Arnem, Sara Eckeson; Isaac; Folkert Heermans, Margrietje Eckeson 1705 Dec 09; Robberd Borsie, Catharina Van Aren [Aernem]; Sara; Willem Waldron Jr., Marretje Roseboom 1709 Oct 16; Harmanus Van Gelder, Teuntje Idesse; Cornelia; Jacob Hassing, Sara Theunis 1710 Oct 08; Marinus Roelofse, Dina Theunis [Iedesse]; Jan; Willem Echt, Sara Theunis wife of Meyndert Burger 1715 Oct 12; Jeremiah Borres, Cornelia Eckeson; Maria; Thomas Montanje, Sara Van Aarnem 1723 Aug 28; Petrus Van Tilburg, Sara Ward; Elizabeth; Pieter Van Tilburg, Catharina Teller Other names of interest that could provide us with clues (pieces of the puzzle): 1640 Dec 16; Burger Joriszen, Engeltje Mans; Catharyn; Gilles Pieterszen, Teunis Janszen, Teuntje Broecks, Maritie Jans 1642 Dec 14; Borger Joriszen, Engeltje Mans; Maryken; Teunis Janszen-sail maker, Jillis Pieterszen, Mr. Timm, Maryken Philips 1644 Feb 04; Paulus Janszen Van Vlissingen; Evert; Jan Dirckszen Van Bremen, Anthony Ferdinando, Abraham Jacobszen, Annetje Thomas 1644 Feb 28; Jan Dirckszen Van Bremen; Tietje; Harmen Arentszen, Claes Cooren, Hendrick Westercamp backer, Annetje Gerrits 1650 Mar 27; Cornelis Teuniszen; Teunis; Grietie Backers 1651 Feb 26; Tobias Teuniszen; Teunis; Jan Teuniszen, Tryntie Van der Burg 1651 Jul 09; Cornelis Claeszen-Swiss, Ariaentie Cornelis; Cornelis; Tobias Teuniszen, Leendert Arentszen, Jillis Janszen, Cornelis Croesen and his wife 1652 Feb 25; Jan Dirckszen; Johannes; Hendrick Hendrickszen, Isaac Grevenraedt, Christina Andries, Grietie Jans 1655 Jul 04; Hendrick Siboutszen, Weyntie Teunis; Teunis; Arie Dirckszen, Jochem Caljer, Teunis Teuniszen, Belitje Jacobs, Susanna Jans 1657 Mar 25; Jan Dirckszen de Meyer, Tryntie Grevenraets; Pieter; Grietie de Riemer 1657 Apr 29; Fredrick Arentszen, Margriet Pieters; Arent; Pieter Jacobszen Marius, Wyntie Van der Vin 1657 Jul 08; Adolf Pieterszen Van der Groest, Aefje Dircx; Pieter; Cornelis Setten, Lysbeth Setten, Hendricks Van de Water, Annetje Arents 1659 Aug 17; Fredrick Arentszen, Margriet Pieters; Lysbeth; Cornelis Pluvier, Johannes Becks, Elsje Thymens 1660 Oct 31; Gerrit Janszen Roos, Tryntie Arents; Gelyn; Boele Roelofszen, Bayken Arents 1661 Feb 06; Boele Roelofszen, Bayken Arents; Hendrick; Gerrit Janszen Roos, Tryntie Arents 1662 Oct 08; Boele Roelofszen, Bayken Arents; Tryntie; Gerrit Janszen Roos, Tryntie Arents 1662 Dec 03; Denys Isaacszen Van Hartvelt, Lysbeth; Lysbeth; Jan Dirckszen Meyer, Tryntie Grevenraet 1663 Feb 25; Jan Dirckszen Meyer, Tryntie Grevenraets; Elsje; Hendrick Van der Wallen, Metje Grevenraet 1664 Mar 05; Jan Teuniszen, Marie Jans; Theunis; Jan Spiegelsaen, Gerrit Lambertszen 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt 1665 Apr 10; Gerrit Janszen Roos, Tryntie Arents; Aefje; Boelen Roelofszen, Emerensje Van Zluys, Bayken Arents 1667 Feb 27; Gerrit Janszen Roos, Tryntie Arents; Aeltie; Jan Vinge, Tryntie Roelofs 1689 Nov 24; Pieter Jansz Van Tilburg, Lysbeth Frans [Van Hoogten]; Frans [Hoogten]; Jan Teuniszen Van Tilburg, Maryken Frans [Hoogten] 1690 Feb 16; Jacob Van Tilburg, Grietje Kermer; Tryntie; Jan Janszen Van Tilburg, Tryntie Jans 1691 Aug 02; Hendrick Kermer, Annetje Thomas; Thomas; Jacob Van Tilburg, Maryken Duycking 1693 Mar 12; Johan Van Tilburg, Anna Maria Van Giesen; Theunis; Jan Van Tilburg, Adriaentie his wife 1694 Dec 30; Jacobus de Waeron, Anna Gansevoort; Ariaentie; Jan Theunis Van Tilburg, Debora de Waeron 1704 Dec 10; Marinus Roelofse, Dina Theunisse [Iedesse]; Abraham; Abraham Van Bremen, Maritie [Lansing] wife of Huybert Van den Berg

I don't see any research staff listed. "Ask-a-Librarian staff provide brief answers to factual questions" (no opinion questions). I don't think this would qualify as a "brief answer" (unless, of course, the answer is "I don't know," or the always pertinant "42"), but (718) 990-0770. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 5:19 PM, <dragonshelver@yahoo.com> wrote: > Look in the catalog of the lds family history library. Many wills are on microfilm there > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com > Sender: vannorman-bounces@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 15:09:38 > To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> > Reply-To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >  inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, >> 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this >> timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really >> don't know how to find them. >> >> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen >> seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same >> people in the church documents. >> >> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits >> together nicely IMO. >> >> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very >> interesting and informative: >> 1.     [PDF] >> >> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> >> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> I've got a few minutes. >> >> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan >> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, >> one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, >> just for starters.) >> >> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about >> these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about >> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on >> Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of >> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and >> moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from >> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be >> good for everyone to visit. >> >> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to >> info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it >> other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it >> existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! >> >> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families >> >> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this >> >> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to >> determine,however. >> >> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah >> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original >> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> >>>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >>> (City >>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>> several pages especially 244. >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >>> so >>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >>> was >>> >>> his wife. >>> >>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >>> provinces >>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>> --------------. >>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >>> and >>> >>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>> the last record of them I can find. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>> Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>> of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>> long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>> brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>> research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Abraham and Sara had six children. I'm not sure how Sara Eckerson and Jan Eckerson are related. I'm sure they are, just haven't gotten that far. Abram/Abraham was bap. 9 Apr 1673, d. bef. May 1736. Sara was bap. 4 Oct 1673, d. aft Jul 1737. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > 1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, Maria > Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our > Sara'sparentsnames > > That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan > Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> John I was wondering about this entry.  Thanks for bringing this to my >> attention. >> >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >> >> Susan >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's >> parentsnames >> >> Interesting. No sources though >> > (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH >> P-0936.html). >> Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. >> Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

1699 Oct 22; Abram Van Aernem, Sara Eckersen; Sara; Thomas Eckersen, Maria Van Aernem wife of Jan Eckersen -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:42 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara'sparentsnames That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > John I was wondering about this entry.  Thanks for bringing this to my > attention. > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > Susan > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > parentsnames > > Interesting. No sources though > (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > P-0936.html). > Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hahaha! I actual live near Austin, TX now but was born in Indiana. Do we have a list member that lives in the area that would go to the library to research the will and any other items of interest? Could we ask the library to look for the specific will for us by phone? Do they have a research department? Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:55 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals As I recall, you live in Indiana... Your choices would be car, plane, or, I would assume, train. For the first, MapQuest. For the latter, Orbitz. Destination, Jamaica. Not the fun Jamaica, the one in New York. Once there.... Title: James Riker Collection, 1614-1859 Control number: Control # R-11 Open for research without restrictions. Manuscripts are only available in the Long Island Division Monday through Friday 10am through 5pm. Apparently, you'll also need a library card. That'll cost you $50, and two forms of ID. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > Great!  How can we view it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:38 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division > Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of > Memoria. > http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2E > xml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ > > Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM,  <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but >> I would think generally they would be found in the probate court >> records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably >> could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey >> City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I >> wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > 24, >>> 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this >>> timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and > really >>> don't know how to find them. >>> >>> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen >>> seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these > same >>> people in the church documents. >>> >>> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits >>> together nicely IMO. >>> >>> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very >>> interesting and informative: >>> 1.     [PDF] >>> >>> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> >>> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >>> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >>> >>> I've got a few minutes. >>> >>> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan >>> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > conclusion, >>> one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for > brother-in-law, >>> just for starters.) >>> >>> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about >>> these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about >>> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on >>> Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of >>> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and >>> moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help > from >>> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would > be >>> good for everyone to visit. >>> >>> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access > to >>> info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it >>> other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently > it >>> existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! >>> >>> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > families >>> >>> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether > this >>> >>> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to >>> determine,however. >>> >>> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah >>> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > original >>> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >>> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >>> >>> >>>>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >>>> (City >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > stolen >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>>> several pages especially 244. >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>>> >>> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >>>> so >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >>>> was >>>> >>>> his wife. >>>> >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >>>> provinces >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > Catholic. >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > Papist." >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > and/or >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>>> --------------. >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >>>> and >>>> >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. >  That's >>>> the last record of them I can find. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> Is this the gossiping case? >>>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>>> (1st paragraph) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > happened >>>>> on >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>>> ----------- >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > trouble, >>>>> again, for gossiping. >>>>> >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know. >>>>> >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>>> >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>>> >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > the >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > this >>>>>> is our Sara. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>>> >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>>> >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>>> lists >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged > to >>>>>> WIC. >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > soldier, >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>>> Neither >>>>>> in >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>>> qualities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>>> record >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>>> occupation, >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was > a >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>>> possibly >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>>> they >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > unlikely. >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>>> Aside >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>>> Sara, >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>>> long >>>>>> one >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > Dircks >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>>> sort >>>>>> of >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>>> brother >>>>>> or >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>>> research >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>>> Dircks >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --pete >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pete have you viewed Riker's collection previously? Was the mentioned will of Jan T not available in his collection? I was just reading Riker's bio and it sounds like he was quite the expert. Being a professional genealogist I would have to think his work is based on documented facts. Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:38 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of Memoria. http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2E xml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, >> 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this >> timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really >> don't know how to find them. >> >> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen >> seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same >> people in the church documents. >> >> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits >> together nicely IMO. >> >> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very >> interesting and informative: >> 1.     [PDF] >> >> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> >> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> I've got a few minutes. >> >> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan >> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, >> one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, >> just for starters.) >> >> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about >> these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about >> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on >> Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of >> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and >> moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from >> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be >> good for everyone to visit. >> >> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to >> info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it >> other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it >> existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! >> >> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families >> >> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this >> >> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to >> determine,however. >> >> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah >> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original >> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> >>>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >>> (City >>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>> several pages especially 244. >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >>> so >>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >>> was >>> >>> his wife. >>> >>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >>> provinces >>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>> --------------. >>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >>> and >>> >>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>> the last record of them I can find. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>> Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>> of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>> long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>> brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>> research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As I recall, you live in Indiana... Your choices would be car, plane, or, I would assume, train. For the first, MapQuest. For the latter, Orbitz. Destination, Jamaica. Not the fun Jamaica, the one in New York. Once there.... Title: James Riker Collection, 1614-1859 Control number: Control # R-11 Open for research without restrictions. Manuscripts are only available in the Long Island Division Monday through Friday 10am through 5pm. Apparently, you'll also need a library card. That'll cost you $50, and two forms of ID. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:45 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > Great!  How can we view it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:38 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference > inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals > > Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division > Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of > Memoria. > http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2E > xml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ > > Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM,  <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but >> I would think generally they would be found in the probate court >> records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably >> could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey >> City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I >> wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan > 24, >>> 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this >>> timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and > really >>> don't know how to find them. >>> >>> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen >>> seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these > same >>> people in the church documents. >>> >>> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits >>> together nicely IMO. >>> >>> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very >>> interesting and informative: >>> 1.     [PDF] >>> >>> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> >>> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >>> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >>> >>> I've got a few minutes. >>> >>> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan >>> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own > conclusion, >>> one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for > brother-in-law, >>> just for starters.) >>> >>> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about >>> these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about >>> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on >>> Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of >>> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and >>> moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help > from >>> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would > be >>> good for everyone to visit. >>> >>> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access > to >>> info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it >>> other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently > it >>> existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! >>> >>> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the > families >>> >>> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether > this >>> >>> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to >>> determine,however. >>> >>> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah >>> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other > original >>> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. >>> >>> --pete >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM >>> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >>> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >>> >>> >>>>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >>>> (City >>>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being > stolen >>>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>>> several pages especially 244. >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>>> >>> > cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >>>> so >>>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >>>> was >>>> >>>> his wife. >>>> >>>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >>>> provinces >>>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely > Catholic. >>>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the > Papist." >>>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks > and/or >>>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>>> --------------. >>>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >>>> and >>>> >>>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682. >  That's >>>> the last record of them I can find. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> Is this the gossiping case? >>>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>>> (1st paragraph) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> > wrote: >>>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident > happened >>>>> on >>>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>>> ----------- >>>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in > trouble, >>>>> again, for gossiping. >>>>> >>>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>>> >>>>> --pete >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know. >>>>> >>>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>>> >>>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>> >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>>> >>>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling > the >>>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if > this >>>>>> is our Sara. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>>> >>>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>>> >>>> >>> > http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>>> >>>> >>> > 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>>> lists >>>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged > to >>>>>> WIC. >>>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another > soldier, >>>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>>> Neither >>>>>> in >>>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>>> qualities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>>> record >>>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>>> occupation, >>>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was > a >>>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at > all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>>> possibly >>>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>>> they >>>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems > unlikely. >>>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>>> Aside >>>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>>> Sara, >>>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>>> long >>>>>> one >>>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan > Dircks >>>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>>> sort >>>>>> of >>>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>>> brother >>>>>> or >>>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>>> research >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>>> Dircks >>>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --pete >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Great! How can we view it? -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:38 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of Memoria. http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2E xml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, >> 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this >> timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really >> don't know how to find them. >> >> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen >> seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same >> people in the church documents. >> >> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits >> together nicely IMO. >> >> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very >> interesting and informative: >> 1.     [PDF] >> >> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> >> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> I've got a few minutes. >> >> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan >> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, >> one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, >> just for starters.) >> >> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about >> these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about >> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on >> Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of >> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and >> moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from >> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be >> good for everyone to visit. >> >> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to >> info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it >> other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it >> existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! >> >> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families >> >> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this >> >> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to >> determine,however. >> >> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah >> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original >> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> >>>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >>> (City >>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>> several pages especially 244. >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >>> so >>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >>> was >>> >>> his wife. >>> >>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >>> provinces >>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>> --------------. >>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >>> and >>> >>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>> the last record of them I can find. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>> Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>> of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>> long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>> brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>> research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That would by Maryken. My records show she married 3 Jun 1696 to Jan Eckerson, and had 8 children. Died after 1735. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > John I was wondering about this entry.  Thanks for bringing this to my > attention. > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > Susan > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 4:43 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Theunissen Van Tilburg and our Sara's > parentsnames > > Interesting. No sources though > (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/c/o/C-Scott-WA/WEBSITE-0001/UH > P-0936.html). > Also incorrect about "Anglesizing" Theuniszen to Van Tilburg. > Theuniszen would be slightly closer to Thomas or Thompson. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Apparently his collection can be found at the Long Island Division Queens Borough Public Library in a microfilmed set of 16 volumns of Memoria. http://www.qbpl.org/ext/central/longisland/manuscripts/index.asp?f=r%2D11%2Exml&tt=James+Riker+Collection+ Combined, almost 300 feet of microfilm. On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:09 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > I too have never looked for wills, except through online searchs, but > I would think generally they would be found in the probate court > records of the place it was proved. In this instance, it presumably > could be found in the collection of the author, James Riker of Jersey > City, NJ. I trust that Pete has exhausted the first search, but I > wonder if anyone has attempted to trace the latter... > > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> There must have been a will because he states in their will made on Jan 24, >> 1686.  Does anyone know how to locate the archives for the wills of this >> timeframe and location?  I have never searched for wills before and really >> don't know how to find them. >> >> The fact that Ricker specifically states brother in law to Jan Dircksen >> seems like it was a known fact.  We also see the interaction of these same >> people in the church documents. >> >> I feel we will be able to prove this relationship for our Sara.  It fits >> together nicely IMO. >> >> I posted a very detail account with several citations that I found very >> interesting and informative: >> 1.     [PDF] >> >> THE VERIFIED ACCOUNT OF <http://www.ostrander.org/OFAgen1and2V2nov6.pdf> >> THE FIRST TWO GENERATIONS OF THE OSTRANDER ... >> >> Susan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 9:36 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference >> inHarlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> I've got a few minutes. >> >> Riker did some amazing work but he wasn't infallible.  Calling Jan >> Theunissen Jan Dircks' brother-in-law appears to be Riker's own conclusion, >> one he simply jumped to.  (The Dutch didn't have a word for brother-in-law, >> just for starters.) >> >> The extended footnote about Jan Theunissen illustrates two things about >> these old books.  First, they can be wrong.  In this case the part about >> Theunissen and his wife Catrina Kronenberg in New Amstel is a mistake on >> Riker's part.  That was a different Jan Theunissen (there were a lot of >> them) who later died and whose wife (not Trintje Pieters)  remarried and >> moved to Boston.  I worked this out  three or four years ago with help from >> the people over on the New Netherlands Board and that's a place it would be >> good for everyone to visit. >> >> However, Rikers's reference to Theunissen's will indicates he had access to >> info no longer available.  I can't find the will or any reference to it >> other than this one.  Neither can researchers better than I.  Apparently it >> existed once upon a time but now it's gone.  Dang! >> >> There's someone named Jan Theunissen floating continually among the families >> >> with whom the Van Arnhems became allied from as early as 1640.  Whether this >> >> is one man or as many as four different men is, so far, impossible to >> determine,however. >> >> Jan Theunissen who looks like he might be some sort of relative to Sarah >> Theunis seems to have left Harlem around 1680 when a lot of other original >> settlers were doing the same thing and moved to New Jersey, I think. >> >> --pete >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Susan Claggett" <claimtofame@claggett6.com> >> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 12:57 AM >> Subject: [VANNORMAN] Jan Dircksen "Jan The Soldier" book reference in >> Harlem(City of New York) it origin and early annals >> >> >>>I think I found a good reference.  Of course it may have already been >>> discovered but it is a first for me and exciting.  On page 242 Harlem >>> (City >>> of New York) it origin and early annals it discusses a quilt being stolen >>> from Jan Dircksen usually called Jan The Soldier.  The accused is his >>> brother in law Jan Teunissen.  There is lots of good info on the next >>> several pages especially 244. >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=iK1J8ESty44C&pg=PA242&dq=Sara+Teunissen+Dir >>> >> cksen&hl=en&ei=iu6zTIrgJsP-8AbgwqzzCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1 >>> &ved=0CCUQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q&f=false >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Susan Van Orman Claggett >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Pete Gonigam [mailto:gonigam@hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:01 PM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> Yes.  It's also the closest thing to a smoking gun (there are others not >>> so >>> clear) connecting Sara to Jan Theunissen (Van Tilburg).  Tryntie Pieters >>> was >>> >>> his wife. >>> >>> Note that the village of Tilburg is in Brabant, one of  the Dutch >>> provinces >>> where Lutheranism didn't take and the populace remained largely Catholic. >>> Theunissen in both Albany and Harlem was sometimes nicknamed "the Papist." >>> Now see my earlier comments concerning my suspicion that Jan Dircks and/or >>> Sara weren't members of the Dutch Reformed Church >>> --------------. >>> While I'm at it and to avoid a lot more blind alley chasing.  Jan Dircks >>> and >>> >>> Sara went to in Harlem 1665.  In 1671 they leased a farm on Maspeth Kil >>> across the East River for three years from Daniel Ternour.  It was lousy >>> land (although apparently good swamp)  and they apparently went back to >>> Harlem and stayed there until they drop off the tax roll in 1682.  That's >>> the last record of them I can find. >>> >>> --pete >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 7:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>> >>> >>> Is this the gossiping case? >>> http://www.archive.org/stream/recordsnewamste09ygoog#page/n357/mode/1up >>> (1st paragraph) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> Yes. "of New Harlem". None of the people mentioned have an particular >>>> connection later to the Van Arnhem family. I think the incident happened >>>> on >>>> Pearl Street and I have no idea why any of them were there at all. >>>> ----------- >>>> There's another case around the same time in which Sarah gets in trouble, >>>> again, for gossiping. >>>> >>>> After the second scrape she apparently learned to keep her own counsel. >>>> >>>> --pete >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: <jroguetech@gmail.com> >>>> To: <vannorman@rootsweb.com> >>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:38 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource (stolen boots) >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know. >>>> >>>> Pages 194, 197, 214, 246, 265, 272 >>>> >>>> Pete, is this our Sarah? >>>> >>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=grietje%20beaver&f=false >>>> >>>> (p. 272 also has Grietje Jans, mentioned in the article on women's >>>> rights, cited for "whorish and evil life" and banished. Oddly, the >>>> next is against a man for "irregular housekeeping".) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I had always wanted to read about the boots. I think he was telling the >>>>> truth! I did a search for Sara Teunis and got this hit. Not sure if this >>>>> is our Sara. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Teunis&f=false >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:43 PM >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] Holland resource >>>>> >>>>> Source for Jan Dirckszen stealing boots: >>>>> >>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=C04CAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22new+amsterdam%2 >>>>> >>> >> 2+%22jan+dirckzen%22&hl=en&ei=kJWyTIKsMMeNnQebxv32CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct= >>>>> result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Pete Gonigam <gonigam@hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I agree with several of your conclusions. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the matter of Jan Dircks' being a WIC soldier, the marriage record >>>>> lists >>>>>> him as "soldat" and the only such in the colony at the time belonged to >>>>> WIC. >>>>>> (As did the colony, essentially an early "company town"). >>>>>> >>>>>> It's unlikely he was an officer, even an adelborst. He got in trouble >>>>>> for >>>>>> having a set of stolen boots he said he'd bought from another soldier, >>>>>> behavior that seems to belong more to the barracks than the BOQ. >>>>>> Neither >>>>> in >>>>>> later life did Jan Dircks ever display anything indicating leadership >>>>>> qualities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably young. Sara, too. To the extent there's any >>>>> record >>>>>> of them they "act" young and stupid.(Possibly a redundant phrase). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree he was probably poor. Without getting into foraging and >>>>> occupation, >>>>>> being a solider was just a notch above being an actual thief. It was a >>>>>> high-risk low-pay job and about the only thing to recommend it as way >>>>>> of >>>>>> making a living was that even the military could see it was stupid to >>>>>> starve a soldier to death before the enemy had a chance to shoot him. >>>>>> Becoming a soldier was what you did if you had no other choice at all. >>>>>> >>>>>> For a number of complicated reasons I, too, suspect Jan Dircks (and >>>>> possibly >>>>>> Sarah) may not have been Dutch. In the wake of the Thirty Years' War, >>>>> they >>>>>> might have been, almost anything. However, Scandinavian seems unlikely. >>>>>> Something involving a French dialect seems more probable. >>>>>> -------- >>>>>> Our Sara Theunis is almost certainly the one aboard De Trouw in 1664. >>>>> Aside >>>>>> from the timing, Jan Duyts, witness at the baptism of her daughter, >>>>> Sara, >>>>>> was the husband of Jannetje Juriaens, essentially the same name as >>>>>> fellow-passenger Janneken Juriaensen aboard DeTrouw. The trip was a >>>>>> long >>>>> one >>>>>> and you'd reasonably expect at least one friendship to develop. >>>>>> >>>>>> In earlier posts I've explained why, applying Occam's Razor, Jan Dircks >>>>>> logically was aboard DeTrouw as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> Incidentally, while "Theunis" might be a patronymic, there's also a >>>>>> possibility it might be one that had morphed into a surname. The >>>>>> somewhat >>>>>> mysterious Jan Theuniszen ( later,Van Tilburg) sure looks like some >>>>>> sort >>>>> of >>>>>> relative although it's not at all clear if he's a father, uncle, >>>>>> brother >>>>> or >>>>>> some sort of cousin. >>>>>> >>>>>> If anyone has the time and money to do some heavy duty original >>>>>> research >>>>>> I >>>>>> can suggest where to look and what to look for to find more on Jan >>>>>> Dircks >>>>>> and Sara Theunis. I have, I regret to say, neither. >>>>>> >>>>>> --pete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >