It was not in this online translator http://www.freedict.com/onldict/dut.html <http://www.freedict.com/onldict/dut.html>which I've found useful before. On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 3:49 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Abaham and Sara Eckerson's marriage: > 1695 08 Jan; Abraham Janszen Van Aernem, jm, van Mitspatskill; Sara > Eckeson, jd, aen de Bouwerye, beyde woonende alheir. A > > What does "aen de Bouwerye" translate to? > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > > I believe these are the same records as found elsewhere (BHIC, > > Olivetree, etc.). I alsi believe all of these are from the same > > transcription of the same book, Records of the Reformed Dutch Church > > in New Amsterdam and New York (aka Collections of the New York > > Genealogical and Biographical Society Vol II). I switched to using > > "Ancestral Things" site (used to use BHIC), because the editer claims > > to actually have corrected some original transcription errors. Perhaps > > some day Google will scan the original book. Also, since Ancestral > > Things includes Albany, Schenectady, and elsewhere, makes it a bit > > easier to source stuff. > > http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/vital_statistics.htm<http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Erbillard/vital_statistics.htm> > > > > Jan Dirckszen had eight children, all of whose Baptisms are found in > > the N.A. records: > > 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > > 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, > > Maria Wouters > > 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan > > Laurenszen Duyts, Mayken Laurens > > 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, > > Susanna Le Maistre > > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > > 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David > > Hendrickszen, Tryntie Hercks > > 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel > > Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters > > 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel > > Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters > > > > Marriage records: > > 1696 14 Oct; Jan Jansz Van Aarnem, ym liv Albany; Hester Fonda, yd liv > > Albany [Albany records] > > 1695 08 Jan; Abraham Janszen Van Aernem, jm, van Mitspatskill; Sara > > Eckeson, jd, aen de Bouwerye, beyde woonende alheir. A > > 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, > > jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Stephen Wood <stephe.w300@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi! > >> > >> I just noticed that the Netherlands Vital Statistics website > >> www.genlias.nl has transcriptions of the early records of the > "Collegiate > >> Church of New York" as they call it and many of our early Van Arnhem > etc. > >> records are listed there under various spellings. (with and without the > Van > >> Arn(h)*m) > >> > >> It would be interesting to determine if they were taken from copies > of > >> records sent "home" near the time of their creation (i.e. - yearly?) or > from > >> copies of records sent over in the 1900's or later...... > >> > >> I note a couple of baptisms for children that I didn't have listed > - > >> sons of Abraham Van Arn(h)em and Maria Hijningen (etc.) > >> > >> Isaac bpt. 8 Oct. 1729 > >> Jan bpt. 19 May 1736 > >> as well as Abraham 31 October 1739 (who I did have.....) > >> > >> Are these new entries, or was I just missing them...... [The first two > are > >> not on any of the VN websites that I can see] > >> > >> Also, the 1671 baptism for Jan lists his parents as Jan Dircxzen van > Aernhem > >> and Sara Theunis - so it does appear that Jan Dircxzen (sic) did refer > to > >> himself at least once as "van Arnhem"...... although perhaps he was > still > >> using it as a place name and not a surname as later children didn't have > >> it..... > >> > >> Food for thought, > >> > >> Stephen > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Abaham and Sara Eckerson's marriage: 1695 08 Jan; Abraham Janszen Van Aernem, jm, van Mitspatskill; Sara Eckeson, jd, aen de Bouwerye, beyde woonende alheir. A What does "aen de Bouwerye" translate to? On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 1:46 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > I believe these are the same records as found elsewhere (BHIC, > Olivetree, etc.). I alsi believe all of these are from the same > transcription of the same book, Records of the Reformed Dutch Church > in New Amsterdam and New York (aka Collections of the New York > Genealogical and Biographical Society Vol II). I switched to using > "Ancestral Things" site (used to use BHIC), because the editer claims > to actually have corrected some original transcription errors. Perhaps > some day Google will scan the original book. Also, since Ancestral > Things includes Albany, Schenectady, and elsewhere, makes it a bit > easier to source stuff. > http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/vital_statistics.htm > > Jan Dirckszen had eight children, all of whose Baptisms are found in > the N.A. records: > 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt > 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, > Maria Wouters > 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan > Laurenszen Duyts, Mayken Laurens > 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, > Susanna Le Maistre > 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden > 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David > Hendrickszen, Tryntie Hercks > 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel > Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters > 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel > Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters > > Marriage records: > 1696 14 Oct; Jan Jansz Van Aarnem, ym liv Albany; Hester Fonda, yd liv > Albany [Albany records] > 1695 08 Jan; Abraham Janszen Van Aernem, jm, van Mitspatskill; Sara > Eckeson, jd, aen de Bouwerye, beyde woonende alheir. A > 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, > jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier > > > On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Stephen Wood <stephe.w300@gmail.com> wrote: >> Hi! >> >>      I just noticed that the Netherlands Vital Statistics website >> www.genlias.nl has transcriptions of the early records of the "Collegiate >> Church of New York" as they call it and many of our early Van Arnhem etc. >> records are listed there under various spellings.  (with and without the Van >> Arn(h)*m) >> >>      It would be interesting to determine if they were taken from copies of >> records sent "home" near the time of their creation (i.e. - yearly?) or from >> copies of records sent over in the 1900's or later...... >> >>      I note a couple of baptisms for children that I didn't have listed - >> sons of Abraham Van Arn(h)em and Maria Hijningen (etc.) >> >> Isaac bpt. 8 Oct. 1729 >> Jan bpt. 19 May 1736 >> as well as Abraham 31 October 1739 (who I did have.....) >> >> Are these new entries, or was I just missing them......  [The first two are >> not on any of the VN websites that I can see] >> >> Also, the 1671 baptism for Jan lists his parents as Jan Dircxzen van Aernhem >> and Sara Theunis - so it does appear that Jan Dircxzen (sic) did refer to >> himself at least once as "van Arnhem"...... although perhaps he was still >> using it as a place name and not a surname as later children didn't have >> it..... >> >>       Food for thought, >> >> Stephen >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

I believe these are the same records as found elsewhere (BHIC, Olivetree, etc.). I alsi believe all of these are from the same transcription of the same book, Records of the Reformed Dutch Church in New Amsterdam and New York (aka Collections of the New York Genealogical and Biographical Society Vol II). I switched to using "Ancestral Things" site (used to use BHIC), because the editer claims to actually have corrected some original transcription errors. Perhaps some day Google will scan the original book. Also, since Ancestral Things includes Albany, Schenectady, and elsewhere, makes it a bit easier to source stuff. http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rbillard/vital_statistics.htm Jan Dirckszen had eight children, all of whose Baptisms are found in the N.A. records: 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria Wouters 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen Duyts, Mayken Laurens 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, Susanna Le Maistre 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, Tryntie Hercks 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters Marriage records: 1696 14 Oct; Jan Jansz Van Aarnem, ym liv Albany; Hester Fonda, yd liv Albany [Albany records] 1695 08 Jan; Abraham Janszen Van Aernem, jm, van Mitspatskill; Sara Eckeson, jd, aen de Bouwerye, beyde woonende alheir. A 1696 03 Jun; Jan Ekkinszen, jm van Stuyvesants bouwerje; Maryken Jans, jd van N. Yorck, beyde woonende alhier On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Stephen Wood <stephe.w300@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi! > >      I just noticed that the Netherlands Vital Statistics website > www.genlias.nl has transcriptions of the early records of the "Collegiate > Church of New York" as they call it and many of our early Van Arnhem etc. > records are listed there under various spellings.  (with and without the Van > Arn(h)*m) > >      It would be interesting to determine if they were taken from copies of > records sent "home" near the time of their creation (i.e. - yearly?) or from > copies of records sent over in the 1900's or later...... > >      I note a couple of baptisms for children that I didn't have listed - > sons of Abraham Van Arn(h)em and Maria Hijningen (etc.) > > Isaac bpt. 8 Oct. 1729 > Jan bpt. 19 May 1736 > as well as Abraham 31 October 1739 (who I did have.....) > > Are these new entries, or was I just missing them......  [The first two are > not on any of the VN websites that I can see] > > Also, the 1671 baptism for Jan lists his parents as Jan Dircxzen van Aernhem > and Sara Theunis - so it does appear that Jan Dircxzen (sic) did refer to > himself at least once as "van Arnhem"...... although perhaps he was still > using it as a place name and not a surname as later children didn't have > it..... > >       Food for thought, > > Stephen > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There are some additional Netherlands records on the FamilySearch beta site https://beta.familysearch.org/ <https://beta.familysearch.org/> Special thanks to Susan Claggett for posting so much helpful information on this mailing list. And also to those who responded with additional information and thoughtful questions. Linda Schwenn

Hi! I just noticed that the Netherlands Vital Statistics website www.genlias.nl has transcriptions of the early records of the "Collegiate Church of New York" as they call it and many of our early Van Arnhem etc. records are listed there under various spellings. (with and without the Van Arn(h)*m) It would be interesting to determine if they were taken from copies of records sent "home" near the time of their creation (i.e. - yearly?) or from copies of records sent over in the 1900's or later...... I note a couple of baptisms for children that I didn't have listed - sons of Abraham Van Arn(h)em and Maria Hijningen (etc.) Isaac bpt. 8 Oct. 1729 Jan bpt. 19 May 1736 as well as Abraham 31 October 1739 (who I did have.....) Are these new entries, or was I just missing them...... [The first two are not on any of the VN websites that I can see] Also, the 1671 baptism for Jan lists his parents as Jan Dircxzen van Aernhem and Sara Theunis - so it does appear that Jan Dircxzen (sic) did refer to himself at least once as "van Arnhem"...... although perhaps he was still using it as a place name and not a surname as later children didn't have it..... Food for thought, Stephen

De Noorman name references from Dutch Records of City Clerk's Office 1662. March 29. Commission by Albert Cornelis, to sue Hans De Noorman for debt of one and a half beaver for sale of 19 schepels of peas, delivered on Oct. 10, i66r. Jan Jansen, 100, 103, 105. D'Angola, widow of Andries, 107. DeForeest, D'Foreest, Isaack, 104, 106, 109. de Metselaer, D'Metselaer, Teunis, 104. Tomas, 104. De Noorman (see Noorman), Claes, 108. VVillem, 54, 55. Tomlison, Henry, 23. Tonneman, Pieter, 30, 33, 60. Toumeur, Daniel, 24, 25. Townsen, Jan, 24. Triatt, Robert, 28. Trinbol [De Noorman], Pieter J. July 6, 1643. To George Baxter, land on Long Island back of Dirck De Noorman's. P. 114.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QOMfOGpfrPwJ:www.locala rchives.org/nahc/finding-aids/MasterList_Surnames_2009-11-08.xls+Daniel+Tour nier <http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QOMfOGpfrPwJ:www.local archives.org/nahc/finding-aids/MasterList_Surnames_2009-11-08.xls+Daniel+Tou rnier&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us> &cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us This is a really great list of the Master Index of New Amsterdam Names - Holland Society Susan

1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters 1661. Apr. 2. Daniel Tourneur of New Haerleni, makes a deposition, at request of Pieter Tarragon, concerning cattle of Hendrik Smit, brother of Smit, dec^ Witnesses, Hendrick Spier [or Spige ?] and Fredrick Arens. Ten Eyck, Coenraet, to Daniel Tourneur, 1865/677 . 146 Terneur, Daniel, to C. Barenzen Van der Cuyl, 1865/700 . 306 Tomassen, Teunis, (Van Naerden), to Jacob Teunissen 1661. Feb. 25. Daniel Tourneur of New Haerlem con- tracts for house with Auken Janse, carpenter, livingat the ferry on Long Island. Said house to be built at New Haerlem. ^Vitnesse3, Hendrick Obe and Gerrit Hendrix. 681 172 to same, 1865/697 282 to Thomas Wandell, 1865/697 .... 284 Steendam, Jacob, to Cornelis Langvelt 1865/696 . . 278 Steenwyck, Cornelius, to Jacques Cosseau, 1865/710 . 376 Steyn, Hans, to Lucas Dircksen Vanderburgh, 1865/706 . 342 Strycker, Jacob, to the Burgomasters, 1865/708. . . 368 Stuyvesant, Petrus, to Jan Jacobs, 1865/676 . . . 139 Ten Eyck, Coenraet, to Daniel Tourneur, 1865/677 . 146 Terneur, Daniel, to C. Barenzen Van der Cuyl, 1865/700 . 306 Tomassen, Teunis, (Van Naerden), to Jacob Teunissen

I believe that both our Sara Theunis (de Piers, Peers, Pers) and Jan Dircksen Van Arnhem were likely cousins and I think our Van Norman family may have originally been known as Van Naerden. Everything is pointing in this direction to me. Look at the names below and remember the witness on the birth records of their children. I really believe that we arrived in the late 1630's. Is anyone else seeing what I am pointing out? This is it folks! Best Regards, Susan Van Orman Claggett http://www.archive.org/stream/dutchrecordsinci00bant/dutchrecordsinci00bant_ djvu.txt 1861/586 .107 Beeckman, Wilhelm, to Joost Teunisen Van Naerden, to Daniel Litschoe, 1861/586 .... Frericksen, Tomas, to Coenraet Ten Eyck, 1861/588 Fullewever, Gerrit, to Jacob Eldertsen, 1861/582 Geraerdy, Jan, to Joost Teunisen Van Naerden, 1861/596 , Gerritsen, Cosyn, to Hendrick Hendricksen, Tailor, 1861/591 to Mathys Capito, 186 1/59 1 .... Geraardt, Jan, to Joost Teunisen Van Naarden, 1861/596 Greveraat, Isaac, to Jelmer Thomas Groesens, Cornelis, to Lubbertus Van Dincklage, 1861/578 1861/583 Van Hattem, Arent, to Joost Teunisen Van Norden, 1861/578 Van Hoorn, Jan Cornelisen, to Oloff Stevensen Van Cort- lant, 1861/600 279 Van Imbroeck, Gysbert, to Isaac De Foreest, 1861/595 . 217 Van Naerden, Teunis Tomassen, to Gerrit Hendricks, Terneur, Daniel, to C. Barenzen Van der Cuyl, 1865/700 . 306 Tomassen, Teunis, (Van Naerden), to Jacob Teunissen 1865/663 . . 52 Van Imbroeken, Gysbert, to Jan H. Van Gunst, 1865/664 . 151 to same . . . . . . . . -57 Van Naerden, Teunis Tomassen, to Frerick Aersen, 1865/ Van der Vin, Hendrick Jansen, to the Burgomasters Van Dincklagh, Lubbertus, to estate of Dirck Schutt Van Elslant, Claes, to Gysbert Van Imbroeck . Van Naarden, Teunis Tomassen, to Pieter Rudolfus from Tylman Van Vleck Pietersen, Abraham, from Hendrick Van Bommel . Rudolfus, Pieter, from Teunis Tomassen Van Naerden from Jacob Wolphertsen Van Couwenhoven . Schabanck, Pieter, from Teunis Kraey Schepmoes, Jan Jansen (estate of, etc.), from widow of William Hoeck from Abram Pietersen Molenaer .... from Thomas Hall from Jacob Wolphertsen Van Couwenhoven from Teunis Tomassen Van Naarden . from Hendrick Pietersen of Hasselt from Nicolaes Backer from Hendrick Jansen of Utrecht from Warnaer Wessels May 16, 1656. Above Orphanmasters meet at City Hall. Ac- count of estate of Cornelis Groesen. The following were creditors : Dirck Van Schelluyne, Augustyn Heermans, Judick Verleth, David Provoost, dec**, Hendr. Jansz Van Naerden, Aert Willemsz, Andries Jochemsz, La Montagne and M' Hans, Hendr. De Backer, Ciaes Pietersz Kos, VVillem Beeckman, Abram Clock, Walbrugh De Silla, Jan Peeck, Jacob Strycker, Jan Schryver, Jacob Kip. The ransom to be paid for the children was, for the little boy 60 guilders, and the little girl 94 guilders. Hendrick Hendricksen and Isack De Foreest were to ransom them. 1662. July 9. Request to Dirk Van Schelluyne to read a letter to Eldert Gerbertsz Kruyf and to get his answer to same. The letter was written for Hendrick Jansen Been, concerning a power of attorney for his brother Cornelis Gerbertsz Cruyf, on Sept. 2, 1661, and decision regarding the same by the orphan masters of Naerden, Holland. Said power of Attorney was concerning the estate of Hendrick Jansen Van Naerden, He also had granted powers of attorney to a party at Hilver- sum in Gooyland. Jan Martens and Dirckje Harmens took care of the estate, and the deceased died at the house of Dirckje Harmens, in the village of Beverwyck at Fort Orange, Hendrick Jansen Been was debit for the above instrument and other services, 7 guilders 10 stivers. 1662. Aug. 23. Jacob Mensen Van Emden, tailor and burgher at New Amsterdam, confers power of attorney upon Reynout Reynoutsen, master shoemaker at New Amsterdam, about to go to Holland. Said Reynoutsen is to attend to vari- ous matters for his principal, also to receive for him from the Directors of the West India Co., at Amsterdam, what is com- ing to him as corporal while serving in Brazil. Witnesses, Pieter Casparsen Van Naerden and Cornells Gerlofsz Visscher. 1658. Nov. 6. Teunis Tomasse Van Naarden, burgher of New Amsterdam, owes Pieter Rudolfus 100 guilders seewan, for money advanced. Mortgages his house and lot situated on the Market field. 1659. Feb. 10. Teunis Tomasen Van Naarden acknowl- edges to owe Olof Stevens Van Cortland the amount of 300 guilders, for money advanced him. Mortgages his new house and lot East of the Market field, to the North the lot of Jan Jansz De Jonge, to the East Tomasen's house and lot, to the South the house and lot of Frerick Flipse, to the West the said Market field. Joannes Verbrugge and Jieronymus Eb- bingh subscribed as witnesses. [No date. Not executed.] HendrickPietersz Van Hasselt, burgher of New Amsterdam, acknowledges to owe Oloff Stevens Cortlandt 100 guilders, for money advanced. Mort- gages his house and lot to the South of the " Heere Wegh." [No date. Not executed.] Nicolaes Backer, burgher at New Amsterdam, acknowledges to owe Oloff Stevens Cortlandt 400 guilders, for beer furnished and money advanced him. 1654. Aug. 13. Evert Duyckinck, residing at New Am- sterdam, of the first part, and Lourens Jansz Amack and [signed himself Heyndrick Jansz Hen- drick Jansz Van Naerden Ramaker] of the second part, enter into an agreement. Party of the first part rents to parties of the second part land situated in the village of Midtwoudt, with dwelling, fence, trees, etc., for period of four consecutive years, commencing with the Am- sterdam fair (Kermis). Witnesses, Cornelis Cornelisz and Claes AUerts. Van Naerden, Teunis Thomasen. 33- Van Meffelen, Dirckie J., 6, Van Naerden, Hendr. J., 5, 38, 67. Pieter, 40, 65. Teunis, T., 59, 60, 61. Van Nas, Abraham, 25, 26, 27. Van Nieulant, Boudewyn, 27, 29. Van Nieuwhoff [alias Jan Coopal], May . . , 1644. To Claes Jansen Van Naerden, double lot near Fort Amsterdam next to Rem Jansen's and Willem Cor- nelisen Coster's. P. 154. June 13, 1644. To Hendrick Jansen Smitt, lot next to lots of Gerrit Douman and d'Roye Jansen. P. 156. Sep. 8, 1644. To Pieter Jansen Van Jorcum, lot formerly occupied by Gerrit Douman, on Manhattan Island. P. 158. Sep. 30, 1645. To Claes Jansen Van Naerden, land on Long Island, opposite Fort, next to Frerick Lubbertsen and Jan Manje's. P. 178. Sep. 30, 1645. To Herry Peers [Pers] lot next to Tomas de Metselaer and Isack De Foreest's. P. 180. 1861/582 68 Taelman, Pieter, from Burger Jorissen. 1S61/593 . , 194 Ten Eyck, Coenraet, from Tomas Frericksen, 1861/588 . 128 Teunissen, Joost (Van Naerden), from Jan Geraerdz, 1861/596 228 Teunissen, Roelof, from Dirck Volckensen, 1S61/597 , 240 Thomas, Jelmer, from Isaac Greveraet . . . .187 Van Berg, Lucas Dircksen, from Harck Syboutsen, 1861/583 75 Van Boskerck, Lourens Andriesen, from Lucas Dircksen Van Berg, 1861/5S6 103 from Jochem Beeckman, 1861/586 .... 107 Van Cortlant, Oloff Stevensen, from David Wessels, 1861/589 147 Van Imbroeck, Gysbert, from Teunis Kray, 1861/583 . 69 Van Naerden, Joost Teunissen, from Wilhelm Beeckman, INDEX OF GRANTEES. 1659-1664. [Note. - Many of the baptismal names in these indexes, as in the originals from which they were copied, appear as initials only. The full names, how- ever, in most cases, can be ascertained by inspection of the corresponding entry in the Index of Grantors, and vice versa. In some cases errors may be detected by comparison of similar entries in the Grantor and Grantee Indexes. For example : The first item below appears as a conveyance to Frerick Aersen, from T. T. Van Naerden. In the Index of Grantors we find conveyance from Teunis Tomassen Van Naerden to F. Aersen, reveal- ing the full name of the grantor. The fourth item below is a conveyance to Paulus Andriezen from C. B. Vandercuyl. In the corresponding item in the Index of Grantors we find the deed from C. Barensen Vandercuyl to P. Andriezen.] Aersen, Frerick, from T. T, Van Naerden Allard, Francois, from Estate Schepmoes Andriezen, Laurens, from Churchwardens Andriezen, Paulus, from C. B. Vandercuyl Backer, Jacob, from J. Jansen De Jong Barentzen, C. (Van der Cuyl), from J. J, Mingael from Thomas Verdon from Daniel Temeur ..... from Thomas Frericksen .... Van der Veen Teunisen, J. (Kay), from T. T. Van Naerden . Van Aernham, G. J., from Gabriel Carpesey Van Borkelo, W. J., from J. C. Van Vlensburg . 1861/586 .107 Beeckman, Wilhelm, to Joost Teunisen Van Naerden, 1861/583 Van Hattem, Arent, to Joost Teunisen Van Norden, 1861/578 to Thomas Wandell, 1865/697 .... 284 Steendam, Jacob, to Cornelis Langvelt 1865/696 . . 278 Steenwyck, Cornelius, to Jacques Cosseau, 1865/710 . 376 Steyn, Hans, to Lucas Dircksen Vanderburgh, 1865/706 . 342 Strycker, Jacob, to the Burgomasters, 1865/708. . . 368 Stuyvesant, Petrus, to Jan Jacobs, 1865/676 . . . 139 Ten Eyck, Coenraet, to Daniel Tourneur, 1865/677 . 146 Terneur, Daniel, to C. Barenzen Van der Cuyl, 1865/700 . 306 Tomassen, Teunis, (Van Naerden), to Jacob Teunissen 1865/663 . . 52 Van Imbroeken, Gysbert, to Jan H. Van Gunst, 1865/664 . 151 to same . . . . . . . . -57 Van Naerden, Teunis Tomassen, to Frerick Aersen, 1865/ 656 3 to Jacob Teunisen Kay, 1865/703 .... 328 Van Oldenburg, Dirk Jansen, to Thomas Jansen Mingael, I40 Van Couwenhovtn, Jacob Wolphertsen, to estate of Ben jam. Van de Water to his children and Hend. Van de Water to Gillis Verbrugge .... to O. S. Van Cortlant and Nicolas DeMeyer to Pieter Rudolfus .... Van der Vin, Hendrick Jansen, to the Burgomasters Van Dincklagh, Lubbertus, to estate of Dirck Schutt Van Elslant, Claes, to Gysbert Van Imbroeck . Van Naarden, Teunis Tomassen, to Pieter Rudolfus to Olof Stevensen Van Cortland . Van Vleeck, Tylman, to Mighiel Paulusen Van Werckhoven, purchase of lands for, by A. Heer mans Wessels, Warnaer, to Abraham Clocq from Tylman Van Vleck Pietersen, Abraham, from Hendrick Van Bommel . Rudolfus, Pieter, from Teunis Tomassen Van Naerden from Jacob Wolphertsen Van Couwenhoven . Schabanck, Pieter, from Teunis Kraey Schepmoes, Jan Jansen (estate of, etc.), from widow of William Hoeck William Hoeck Schut, Dirck (estate of), from Lubbertus Van Dinck lage Schutts, Cornelis, from Isaac Allerton from Paulus Hermans Staas, Jacob Jansen, from Andries Hoppe Steendam, Jacob, from Eickie Janse D'Vries . from Harmen Smeeman ..... Steenwyck, Cornelis, from Pieter Andriessen Van Bor dolhom .... from Thomas Hall from wife of Rut Jacobsen from Francis De Bruyn from Frerick Aersen from Herman Doussen from Burgher Jorissen Tomassen, Willem (widow of), from Jeronimus Ebbingh Tonneman, Pieter, etc., from Solomon La Chair Van Cortlant, Oloff Stevensen, from Solomon La Chair from Abram Pietersen Molenaer .... from Thomas Hall from Jacob Wolphertsen Van Couwenhoven from Teunis Tomassen Van Naarden . from Hendrick Pietersen of Hasselt from Nicolaes Backer from Hendrick Jansen of Utrecht from Warnaer Wessels attorney 86 Duran, Jan, to Jan Martyn. Apprenticeship . . . 13 Duyckingh, Evert, to Lourens Jansen and Hendrick Jan- sen Van Naerden. Lease 69 to Lowies Jansen. Lease 102 to Jan Reyndersen. Contract of sale . . . .120 to Teunis Nyssen. Contract of sale .... 168 to Teunis Nyssen. Receipt for money paid . . 184 Ebel, Pieter, to Isaac Greveraet. Bonds . . .145 Flodder, Jacob Jansen, to Dirck Van Schelluyne. Power May 16, 1656. Above Orphanmasters meet at City Hall. Ac- count of estate of Cornelis Groesen. The following were creditors : Dirck Van Schelluyne, Augustyn Heermans, Judick Verleth, David Provoost, dec**, Hendr. Jansz Van Naerden, Aert Willemsz, Andries Jochemsz, La Montagne and M' Hans, Hendr. De Backer, Ciaes Pietersz Kos, VVillem Beeckman, Abram Clock, Walbrugh De Silla, Jan Peeck, Jacob Strycker, Jan Schryver, Jacob Kip. The ransom to be paid for the children was, for the little boy 60 guilders, and the little girl 94 guilders. Hendrick Hendricksen and Isack De Foreest were to ransom them. Oct. 29, 1656. Sara Pietersz, widow of Jan Jansz Schepmoes, intends to remarry. Her children are Willem, Anna, Abram, Adeleid, Jaepie, Dirck, Oerstelke and Sara Schepmoes. Re- ceived together 800 guilders from estate. 1662. July 9. Request to Dirk Van Schelluyne to read a letter to Eldert Gerbertsz Kruyf and to get his answer to same. The letter was written for Hendrick Jansen Been, concerning a power of attorney for his brother Cornelis Gerbertsz Cruyf, on Sept. 2, 1661, and decision regarding the same by the orphan masters of Naerden, Holland. Said power of Attorney was concerning the estate of Hendrick Jansen Van Naerden, He also had granted powers of attorney to a party at Hilver- sum in Gooyland. Jan Martens and Dirckje Harmens took care of the estate, and the deceased died at the house of Dirckje Harmens, in the village of Beverwyck at Fort Orange, Hendrick Jansen Been was debit for the above instrument and other services, 7 guilders 10 stivers. 1658. Nov. 6. Teunis Tomasse Van Naarden, burgher of New Amsterdam, owes Pieter Rudolfus 100 guilders seewan, for money advanced. Mortgages his house and lot situated on the Market field. 1659. Feb. 10. Teunis Tomasen Van Naarden acknowl- edges to owe Olof Stevens Van Cortland the amount of 300 guilders, for money advanced him. Mortgages his new house and lot East of the Market field, to the North the lot of Jan Jansz De Jonge, to the East Tomasen's house and lot, to the South the house and lot of Frerick Flipse, to the West the said Market field. Joannes Verbrugge and Jieronymus Eb- bingh subscribed as witnesses. 1654. Feb. II. [From a loose piece of paper.] Secretary Jacob Kip and Fiscal Van Tienhoven took from the house of Jan the smith certain articles in behalf of the Company and of the city of New Amsterdam. Witnesses, Pieter Van Naerden, Johannes Provoost and Jan the mason. 1654. Aug. 13. Evert Duyckinck, residing at New Am- sterdam, of the first part, and Lourens Jansz Amack and Hen- drick Jansz Van Naerden [signed himself Heyndrick Jansz Ramaker] of the second part, enter into an agreement. Party of the first part rents to parties of the second part land situated in the village of Midtwoudt, with dwelling, fence, trees, etc., for period of four consecutive years, commencing with the Am- sterdam fair (Kermis). Witnesses, Cornelis Cornelisz and Claes AUerts. May . . , 1644. To Claes Jansen Van Naerden, double lot near Fort Amsterdam next to Rem Jansen's and Willem Cor- nelisen Coster's. P. 154. July 14, 1645. ToTeunis Tomassen Van Naerden, lot near Fort Amsterdam, next to Isaac De Foreest and Flip Geraer- dy's. P. 174. July 6, 1645. To Jan Evertsen Bout, land on Gouwanes Kill next to Huych Aertsen and Gerrit Volkertsen's. P. 176, Sep. 30, 1645. To Claes Jansen Van Naerden, land on Long Island, opposite Fort, next to Frerick Lubbertsen and Jan Manje's. P. 178. Sep. 30, 1645. To Herry Peers [Pers] lot next to Tomas de Metselaer and Isack De Foreest's. P. 180.

Note to following names from the snippets below from the 1650's: G. Jansen Van Aernham Jan Corn. Van Rotterdam Joost Teunisen Van Naerden http://www.archive.org/stream/dutchrecordsinci00bant/dutchrecordsinci00bant_ djvu.txt from Hans Dreper ..... Onclebagh, Adam, from S. Claesen . Oost, Cornelis Jansen, from A. Van Laer Oost, Laurens Jansen, from E. Jansen Wessell Pattison, William, from G. Jansen Van Aernham ii8 --------------------------------- Van der Veen Teunisen, J. (Kay), from T. T. Van Naerden . Van Aernham, G. J., from Gabriel Carpesey Van Borkelo, W. J., from J. C. Van Vlensburg . INDEX OF GRANTORS. 1654-1658. 1861/586 .107 Beeckman, Wilhelm, to Joost Teunisen Van Naerden, --------- to Wilhelmus Beeckman .... Cornelissen, Jan, to Jan Van Rotterdam's orphans De Bruyn, Francis, to Cornelis Steenwyck De Jongh, Jan Jansen, to Wemaer Wessels De La Noy, Abraham, to Pieter Hertjens De Vries, Eikie Jans, to Jacob Steendam ----------- Van Rotterdam, Jan (orphans of), from Jan Cornelissen Verbrugge, Gillis, from Jacob Van Couwenhoven Van Die Grist, Poulus Leendersen, Declaration of - as to matter of Isaac Allerton Van Hoosen, Lourens Jansen to Cornelis Teunisen Bond etc Van Rossum, Spluiter Aertsen, (estate of) to Albert Cor- nelissen Wantenaer. Van Rotterdam, guardians of the children of, to Isaac Kip, Van Ruyven, Cornelis, and wife, to Abraham Wilmerdonx Power of attorney . .... Van Ruyven, Cornelis, to Teunis Nyssen Van Vaes, Anthony Jansen, to Dirck Van Schelluyne Power of attorney ..... to Claes Tyssen. Lease ..... Velle, Symon, to James Mills. Sale of ship " St. Charles " Vis, Jacob, to Dirck Van Schelluyne. Power of attorney, Vogelsang, Marcus, to estate of Christiaen Jansen Backer Vonck, Roelof Jansen, to Dirck Van Schelluyne. Power of attorney --------- Jan. 23, 1657. Claes Pier Kos, widower of Neel Engels, has girl iMarretie, a little over 2 years old, and intends to marry Grietie Maes, widow of Claes Wunsz [?]. Michiel Jansz and Egb. Woutersz appointed guardians of child. Feb. 13, 1657. Olof Stevensen Van Cortlant appointed or- phanmaster in place of Paulus Leendersz Van Grift, retiring. At meeting of March 22, 1657, notice given that Madaleen Dircx, widow of Corn. Van Dort, intends to remarry. Friends of children of dec"" Jan Van Rotterdam write orphanmasters about them. March 28, 1657. Madaleena Dircks, widow of Corn. Hendr. Van Dordt, registered to marry Harmen Hendricks, y. m. of Bergen, Norway. May ri, 1657. Tryntie Claesen widow of Stoffel Harmensz Droogscheerder. He had been killed in Indian troubles of 1655. She intends to marry Rut Joosten Van Brunt, y. m. She has child, a son, 12 years old. Stoffel Harmens willed by testament in 1649 that son should receive half of propertv. _ Jan Corn. Van Rotterdam had been killed in the Indian up- rising of 1643. On May 11, 1657, Claes Carstens of Sant in Norway, 50 years old. Evert Duyckingh of Boocken, 36 \ears, and Isack Kip of Amsterdam, 30 years, declare that three minor children of said Jan Corn, are living at New Amsterdam. Jan Corn. Van Rotterdam's widow was Aeltie Jansz Van Bremen, who died in 1645 at New Amsterdam. The children are Jan, now about 17 years old, Marretie about 18 years old, Cornelis about 15 years old. Jan lives with Corn. Jansz Clopper, black- smith, Marretie lives with Isack Kip, Cornelis lives with Evert Duyckingh. June 16, 1657. Pieter Janz Romeyn, widower of Dirckie Jansz Van Meffelen, intends to marry Maritie Juryaens y. d. of Copenhagen. Romeyn has minor son about 6 years old, Jan Pietersz, issue of his marriage with Dirckie Jansz. Jan Ruigersz, grandfather of child, and Jan De Jongh appointed guardians. On this June 26, 1657, appeared before me Derek Van Schelluyne, notary public, and before the undernamed witnesses, Pieter Jansz Van Langstraat, widower of the deceased Dirckie Jansz of the first part, and Jan Rutgers Morian, father of said Dirckie Jansz, and Jan Jansz De Jongh, appointed guardians by the honorable orphanmasters of this city of the child left by said Dirckie Jansz and said Pieter Jansz, named Jan Pietersz 6 years old, of the second part. Hend. Huygh and Gysbert Op Dyck, witnesses. Sept. 16, 1657. Tryntje Hendricks, widow of Cors Pietersz, intends to marry Fredrick Lubberse. widower of Stymie Hen- drick. Said Tryntie Hendricks had by Cors Pietersz three children, minors. Pieter Stoutenburgh and Jurrien Bianck appointed guardians of said three children.

I would like the BHIC recrods for the related families.  Thanks sooooo much for all you are doing! Beverley Jacobs ________________________________ From: Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 10:26:13 PM Subject: [VANNORMAN] BHIC Records available by request I have several BHIC records for the related families which I can not get to go through Rootsweb.  Please email me privately if you would like for me to send them to you directly.  My email address is susan@claggett6.com  Thanks Regards, Susan Van Orman Claggett ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many records stored in Arnhem were lost in 1944 during the battle of Arnhem. https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Destroyed_and_damaged_records_of_Gelderland I'm not sure if the early church records were lost or not. (poor Google translation) Arnhem (1860-1916) - 1862-1944 Census Arnhem lost Relationship stand intact, including the annexes. Shed Notarial archives intact Arnhem (Arnhem 1862-1944 Population Registry addresses, Civil Registration unimpaired, Also the supplements. Notarial Archive Storage Arnhem unimpaired). On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > I could not find his baptismal record on BHIC but Pim had mentioned he knows > of one and that the date was in Oct 13 1640. > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:57 PM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis > > If Jan Dirckszen was van N. Amsterd, then Van Arnhem must have been a > surname. Although contentious, this is unlikely, since Jan is referred > to as "Jan Dirckszen" and "Jan the soldier", but nonetheless, > presumably his father would have come from Arnhem. Is there any record > of a Dirck van Arnhem in New Amsterdam? Where is Jan's baptismal > record? > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM,  <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: >> Since the ship list only says 'Sara Teunis', I've wondered whether it >> was her too. As we've discussed earlier with Pete, reasons for >> believing it's her are the timing of arrival and their marriage, one >> of the witnesses for Dirkje was also onboard, and there is no record >> of a Sara van Rotterdam  (or Jan van Arhem/Jan the soldier) prior to >> 1664. Presumably, other Sara Theunis' have been ruled out, but I >> haven't checked. >> >> Our Sara certainly would not have gone to Europe and come back, since >> she was presumably poor - she married a soldier, and they as a couple >> were poor later. It was also very unusual for people to do that, >> although I think it did happen on occasion, but every reference I've >> personally seen where it was a possibility were in wills, where the >> location of person is referred to as moved or gone "east", and implied >> it unknown whether they were alive or not. Not only was it expensive, >> the trip was long and hazardous... they didn't go home for Christmas. >> I've never seen records of returning vessels; presumably if they >> exist, they would be in Europe. >> >> If the "other" Sara and Jan moved, there are a limited number of >> probable places for them to have moved to. It's certainly possible >> they died close to each other, but then Dirkje would have been an >> orphan. She does not appear in the orphanage records. If Jan died, >> Sara would appear later as "widow". If Sara died, Jan should appear as >> having being married before. >> >> By swapping our Sara witht the Sara born in New Amsterdam, you'll >> actually need to find another Sara Theunis: >> 1680 07 Apr; Arent Fredrickszen [Blom], jm van N. Yorke; Sara Theunis >> Coevers, jd van N. Breuckelen, beyde woonende tot N. Yorke >> By precluding this from being the Sara born in 1653, you'll need to >> find who this is, since this is a more likely candidate. >> >> And where is the marriage record for our Sara and Jan, now being "van >> N. Amsterd", or at least "beyde wonende alhier"? >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> >>> That may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trouw or she could have >>> gone to visit her homeland with relatives and was returning. We will > never >>> know for sure.  Are there records of passengers sailing for New Amsterdam > to >>> Amsterdam?  I'm new to the early records search since I have not been >>> focusing on this part of my family tree until the past few weeks.  I have >>> really been enjoying the stories on Google books and other sites.  It > puts >>> it all together much better for me. >>> >>> Dirkje's Sara and Jan could have moved away or died like you said.  I > have >>> not seen death records from the early times like they have on BHIC. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:22 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>> >>> Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, >>> and 15 almost unheard of. >>> >>> What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since >>> the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died >>> or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if >>> Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or >>> wherever they may have moved to. >>> >>> "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" >>> with Sara being on the De Trouw? >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are > all >>>> children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that > lists >>>> Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was >>>> quite a common age to get married and have children during that time >>> period. >>>> >>>> >>>> It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The > records >>>> are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in > with >>>> the first settlers families. >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>>> >>>> Interesting theory. >>>> >>>> Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading >>>> between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no >>>> children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a >>>> widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan >>>> Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the >>>> "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would >>>> raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan >>>> overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be >>>> accounted for. Where are they? >>>> >>>> Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly >>>> implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan >>>> van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". >>>> >>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually >>>> solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really >>>> isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't >>>> uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you >>>> introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at >>>> the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a >>>> larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. >>>> >>>> It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may >>>> unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more >>>> about the theory. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>>> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time > to >>>>> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I > am >>>>> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more >>>> than >>>>> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >>>>> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is >>> below >>>>> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I > also >>>>> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam > as >>>>> well. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara >>>> Theunis/Thomas. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in > The >>>>> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French >>>> ancestry. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which > would >>>>> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >>>>> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed >>> are >>>>> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Susan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, >>> Maria >>>>> Wouters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan > Laurenszen >>>>> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, >>>> Susanna >>>>> Le Maistre >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David > Hendrickszen, >>>>> Tryntie Hercks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>>>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>>>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >>>>> duplicates! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >>>>> >>>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara >>> to >>>>> Amsterdam? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I could not find his baptismal record on BHIC but Pim had mentioned he knows of one and that the date was in Oct 13 1640. -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:57 PM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis If Jan Dirckszen was van N. Amsterd, then Van Arnhem must have been a surname. Although contentious, this is unlikely, since Jan is referred to as "Jan Dirckszen" and "Jan the soldier", but nonetheless, presumably his father would have come from Arnhem. Is there any record of a Dirck van Arnhem in New Amsterdam? Where is Jan's baptismal record? On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Since the ship list only says 'Sara Teunis', I've wondered whether it > was her too. As we've discussed earlier with Pete, reasons for > believing it's her are the timing of arrival and their marriage, one > of the witnesses for Dirkje was also onboard, and there is no record > of a Sara van Rotterdam  (or Jan van Arhem/Jan the soldier) prior to > 1664. Presumably, other Sara Theunis' have been ruled out, but I > haven't checked. > > Our Sara certainly would not have gone to Europe and come back, since > she was presumably poor - she married a soldier, and they as a couple > were poor later. It was also very unusual for people to do that, > although I think it did happen on occasion, but every reference I've > personally seen where it was a possibility were in wills, where the > location of person is referred to as moved or gone "east", and implied > it unknown whether they were alive or not. Not only was it expensive, > the trip was long and hazardous... they didn't go home for Christmas. > I've never seen records of returning vessels; presumably if they > exist, they would be in Europe. > > If the "other" Sara and Jan moved, there are a limited number of > probable places for them to have moved to. It's certainly possible > they died close to each other, but then Dirkje would have been an > orphan. She does not appear in the orphanage records. If Jan died, > Sara would appear later as "widow". If Sara died, Jan should appear as > having being married before. > > By swapping our Sara witht the Sara born in New Amsterdam, you'll > actually need to find another Sara Theunis: > 1680 07 Apr; Arent Fredrickszen [Blom], jm van N. Yorke; Sara Theunis > Coevers, jd van N. Breuckelen, beyde woonende tot N. Yorke > By precluding this from being the Sara born in 1653, you'll need to > find who this is, since this is a more likely candidate. > > And where is the marriage record for our Sara and Jan, now being "van > N. Amsterd", or at least "beyde wonende alhier"? > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> >> That may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trouw or she could have >> gone to visit her homeland with relatives and was returning. We will never >> know for sure.  Are there records of passengers sailing for New Amsterdam to >> Amsterdam?  I'm new to the early records search since I have not been >> focusing on this part of my family tree until the past few weeks.  I have >> really been enjoying the stories on Google books and other sites.  It puts >> it all together much better for me. >> >> Dirkje's Sara and Jan could have moved away or died like you said.  I have >> not seen death records from the early times like they have on BHIC. >> >> Susan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:22 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >> >> Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, >> and 15 almost unheard of. >> >> What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since >> the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died >> or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if >> Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or >> wherever they may have moved to. >> >> "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" >> with Sara being on the De Trouw? >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are all >>> children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that lists >>> Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was >>> quite a common age to get married and have children during that time >> period. >>> >>> >>> It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The records >>> are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in with >>> the first settlers families. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>> >>> Interesting theory. >>> >>> Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading >>> between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no >>> children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a >>> widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan >>> Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the >>> "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would >>> raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan >>> overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be >>> accounted for. Where are they? >>> >>> Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly >>> implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan >>> van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". >>> >>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually >>> solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really >>> isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't >>> uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you >>> introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at >>> the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a >>> larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. >>> >>> It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may >>> unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more >>> about the theory. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time to >>>> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I am >>>> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more >>> than >>>> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >>>> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is >> below >>>> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I also >>>> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam as >>>> well. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara >>> Theunis/Thomas. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in The >>>> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French >>> ancestry. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which would >>>> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >>>> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed >> are >>>> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, >> Maria >>>> Wouters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen >>>> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, >>> Susanna >>>> Le Maistre >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >>>> Tryntie Hercks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >>>> duplicates! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >>>> >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara >> to >>>> Amsterdam? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If Jan Dirckszen was van N. Amsterd, then Van Arnhem must have been a surname. Although contentious, this is unlikely, since Jan is referred to as "Jan Dirckszen" and "Jan the soldier", but nonetheless, presumably his father would have come from Arnhem. Is there any record of a Dirck van Arnhem in New Amsterdam? Where is Jan's baptismal record? On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM, <jroguetech@gmail.com> wrote: > Since the ship list only says 'Sara Teunis', I've wondered whether it > was her too. As we've discussed earlier with Pete, reasons for > believing it's her are the timing of arrival and their marriage, one > of the witnesses for Dirkje was also onboard, and there is no record > of a Sara van Rotterdam  (or Jan van Arhem/Jan the soldier) prior to > 1664. Presumably, other Sara Theunis' have been ruled out, but I > haven't checked. > > Our Sara certainly would not have gone to Europe and come back, since > she was presumably poor - she married a soldier, and they as a couple > were poor later. It was also very unusual for people to do that, > although I think it did happen on occasion, but every reference I've > personally seen where it was a possibility were in wills, where the > location of person is referred to as moved or gone "east", and implied > it unknown whether they were alive or not. Not only was it expensive, > the trip was long and hazardous... they didn't go home for Christmas. > I've never seen records of returning vessels; presumably if they > exist, they would be in Europe. > > If the "other" Sara and Jan moved, there are a limited number of > probable places for them to have moved to. It's certainly possible > they died close to each other, but then Dirkje would have been an > orphan. She does not appear in the orphanage records. If Jan died, > Sara would appear later as "widow". If Sara died, Jan should appear as > having being married before. > > By swapping our Sara witht the Sara born in New Amsterdam, you'll > actually need to find another Sara Theunis: > 1680 07 Apr; Arent Fredrickszen [Blom], jm van N. Yorke; Sara Theunis > Coevers, jd van N. Breuckelen, beyde woonende tot N. Yorke > By precluding this from being the Sara born in 1653, you'll need to > find who this is, since this is a more likely candidate. > > And where is the marriage record for our Sara and Jan, now being "van > N. Amsterd", or at least "beyde wonende alhier"? > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> >> That may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trouw or she could have >> gone to visit her homeland with relatives and was returning. We will never >> know for sure.  Are there records of passengers sailing for New Amsterdam to >> Amsterdam?  I'm new to the early records search since I have not been >> focusing on this part of my family tree until the past few weeks.  I have >> really been enjoying the stories on Google books and other sites.  It puts >> it all together much better for me. >> >> Dirkje's Sara and Jan could have moved away or died like you said.  I have >> not seen death records from the early times like they have on BHIC. >> >> Susan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:22 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >> >> Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, >> and 15 almost unheard of. >> >> What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since >> the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died >> or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if >> Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or >> wherever they may have moved to. >> >> "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" >> with Sara being on the De Trouw? >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are all >>> children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that lists >>> Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was >>> quite a common age to get married and have children during that time >> period. >>> >>> >>> It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The records >>> are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in with >>> the first settlers families. >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>> >>> Interesting theory. >>> >>> Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading >>> between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no >>> children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a >>> widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan >>> Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the >>> "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would >>> raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan >>> overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be >>> accounted for. Where are they? >>> >>> Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly >>> implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan >>> van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". >>> >>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually >>> solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really >>> isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't >>> uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you >>> introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at >>> the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a >>> larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. >>> >>> It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may >>> unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more >>> about the theory. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett >>> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>>> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time to >>>> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I am >>>> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more >>> than >>>> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >>>> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is >> below >>>> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I also >>>> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam as >>>> well. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara >>> Theunis/Thomas. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in The >>>> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French >>> ancestry. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which would >>>> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >>>> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed >> are >>>> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Susan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, >> Maria >>>> Wouters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen >>>> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, >>> Susanna >>>> Le Maistre >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >>>> Tryntie Hercks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >>>> duplicates! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >>>> >>>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara >> to >>>> Amsterdam? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >

Since the ship list only says 'Sara Teunis', I've wondered whether it was her too. As we've discussed earlier with Pete, reasons for believing it's her are the timing of arrival and their marriage, one of the witnesses for Dirkje was also onboard, and there is no record of a Sara van Rotterdam (or Jan van Arhem/Jan the soldier) prior to 1664. Presumably, other Sara Theunis' have been ruled out, but I haven't checked. Our Sara certainly would not have gone to Europe and come back, since she was presumably poor - she married a soldier, and they as a couple were poor later. It was also very unusual for people to do that, although I think it did happen on occasion, but every reference I've personally seen where it was a possibility were in wills, where the location of person is referred to as moved or gone "east", and implied it unknown whether they were alive or not. Not only was it expensive, the trip was long and hazardous... they didn't go home for Christmas. I've never seen records of returning vessels; presumably if they exist, they would be in Europe. If the "other" Sara and Jan moved, there are a limited number of probable places for them to have moved to. It's certainly possible they died close to each other, but then Dirkje would have been an orphan. She does not appear in the orphanage records. If Jan died, Sara would appear later as "widow". If Sara died, Jan should appear as having being married before. By swapping our Sara witht the Sara born in New Amsterdam, you'll actually need to find another Sara Theunis: 1680 07 Apr; Arent Fredrickszen [Blom], jm van N. Yorke; Sara Theunis Coevers, jd van N. Breuckelen, beyde woonende tot N. Yorke By precluding this from being the Sara born in 1653, you'll need to find who this is, since this is a more likely candidate. And where is the marriage record for our Sara and Jan, now being "van N. Amsterd", or at least "beyde wonende alhier"? On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > > That may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trouw or she could have > gone to visit her homeland with relatives and was returning. We will never > know for sure.  Are there records of passengers sailing for New Amsterdam to > Amsterdam?  I'm new to the early records search since I have not been > focusing on this part of my family tree until the past few weeks.  I have > really been enjoying the stories on Google books and other sites.  It puts > it all together much better for me. > > Dirkje's Sara and Jan could have moved away or died like you said.  I have > not seen death records from the early times like they have on BHIC. > > Susan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:22 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis > > Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, > and 15 almost unheard of. > > What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since > the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died > or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if > Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or > wherever they may have moved to. > > "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" > with Sara being on the De Trouw? > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are all >> children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that lists >> Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was >> quite a common age to get married and have children during that time > period. >> >> >> It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The records >> are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in with >> the first settlers families. >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >> >> Interesting theory. >> >> Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading >> between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no >> children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a >> widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan >> Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the >> "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would >> raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan >> overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be >> accounted for. Where are they? >> >> Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly >> implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan >> van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". >> >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually >> solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really >> isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't >> uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you >> introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at >> the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a >> larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. >> >> It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may >> unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more >> about the theory. >> >> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett >> <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >>> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time to >>> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I am >>> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more >> than >>> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >>> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is > below >>> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I also >>> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam as >>> well. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara >> Theunis/Thomas. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> >>> >>> >>> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in The >>> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French >> ancestry. >>> >>> >>> >>> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which would >>> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >>> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >>> >>> >>> >>> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed > are >>> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >>> >>> >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> >>> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >>> >>> >>> >>> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, > Maria >>> Wouters >>> >>> >>> >>> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen >>> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >>> >>> >>> >>> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, >> Susanna >>> Le Maistre >>> >>> >>> >>> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >>> >>> >>> >>> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >>> Tryntie Hercks >>> >>> >>> >>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>> >>> >>> >>> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >>> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >>> >>> >>> >>> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >>> duplicates! >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >>> >>> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >>> >>> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >>> >>> >>> >>> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >>> >>> >>> >>> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara > to >>> Amsterdam? >>> >>> >>> >>> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Our only connection to the Van Norman lines, is through a marriage to one of my husband's cousins, but I have stayed interested because of all your talk on the lines in early New York. My husband has several lines that were all there, and finally you mentioned ones I recognize! Jean de la Montagne .    Rachel de Forest .    Maria de la Montagne (born on the voyage)  I know without even looking at the research that he is connected to these people! I love doing Family History and I do my husband's purely because my brother, who works at the LDS Family History Library in Salt Lake, and my sister work on our lines.It is so fun! Keep up the good work all you crazy genealogists! Vicki

Very intereting: 1559 21 Dec; Sara Dircks de Noorman; Sara; no witnesses -----Original Message----- From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:38 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis Sister to our Sara? 1654 20 Dec; Theunis Janszen; Marritje; Heyltje Pieters -----Original Message----- From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:31 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis That may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trouw or she could have gone to visit her homeland with relatives and was returning. We will never know for sure. Are there records of passengers sailing for New Amsterdam to Amsterdam? I'm new to the early records search since I have not been focusing on this part of my family tree until the past few weeks. I have really been enjoying the stories on Google books and other sites. It puts it all together much better for me. Dirkje's Sara and Jan could have moved away or died like you said. I have not seen death records from the early times like they have on BHIC. Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:22 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, and 15 almost unheard of. What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or wherever they may have moved to. "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" with Sara being on the De Trouw? On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are all > children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that lists > Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was > quite a common age to get married and have children during that time period. > > > It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The records > are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in with > the first settlers families. > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis > > Interesting theory. > > Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading > between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no > children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a > widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan > Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the > "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would > raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan > overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be > accounted for. Where are they? > > Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly > implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan > van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually > solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really > isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't > uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you > introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at > the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a > larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. > > It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may > unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more > about the theory. > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time to >> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I am >> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more > than >> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is below >> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I also >> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam as >> well. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >> >> >> >> >> >> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara > Theunis/Thomas. >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in The >> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French > ancestry. >> >> >> >> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which would >> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >> >> >> >> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed are >> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >> Wouters >> >> >> >> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen >> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >> >> >> >> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, > Susanna >> Le Maistre >> >> >> >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >> >> >> >> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> Tryntie Hercks >> >> >> >> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> >> >> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> >> >> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >> duplicates! >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >> >> >> >> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >> >> >> >> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara to >> Amsterdam? >> >> >> >> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sister to our Sara? 1654 20 Dec; Theunis Janszen; Marritje; Heyltje Pieters -----Original Message----- From: Susan Claggett [mailto:claimtofame@claggett6.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:31 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis That may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trouw or she could have gone to visit her homeland with relatives and was returning. We will never know for sure. Are there records of passengers sailing for New Amsterdam to Amsterdam? I'm new to the early records search since I have not been focusing on this part of my family tree until the past few weeks. I have really been enjoying the stories on Google books and other sites. It puts it all together much better for me. Dirkje's Sara and Jan could have moved away or died like you said. I have not seen death records from the early times like they have on BHIC. Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:22 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, and 15 almost unheard of. What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or wherever they may have moved to. "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" with Sara being on the De Trouw? On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are all > children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that lists > Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was > quite a common age to get married and have children during that time period. > > > It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The records > are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in with > the first settlers families. > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis > > Interesting theory. > > Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading > between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no > children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a > widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan > Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the > "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would > raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan > overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be > accounted for. Where are they? > > Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly > implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan > van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually > solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really > isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't > uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you > introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at > the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a > larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. > > It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may > unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more > about the theory. > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time to >> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I am >> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more > than >> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is below >> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I also >> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam as >> well. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >> >> >> >> >> >> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara > Theunis/Thomas. >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in The >> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French > ancestry. >> >> >> >> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which would >> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >> >> >> >> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed are >> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >> Wouters >> >> >> >> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen >> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >> >> >> >> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, > Susanna >> Le Maistre >> >> >> >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >> >> >> >> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> Tryntie Hercks >> >> >> >> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> >> >> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> >> >> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >> duplicates! >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >> >> >> >> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >> >> >> >> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara to >> Amsterdam? >> >> >> >> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trouw or she could have gone to visit her homeland with relatives and was returning. We will never know for sure. Are there records of passengers sailing for New Amsterdam to Amsterdam? I'm new to the early records search since I have not been focusing on this part of my family tree until the past few weeks. I have really been enjoying the stories on Google books and other sites. It puts it all together much better for me. Dirkje's Sara and Jan could have moved away or died like you said. I have not seen death records from the early times like they have on BHIC. Susan -----Original Message----- From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 4:22 AM To: vannorman@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, and 15 almost unheard of. What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or wherever they may have moved to. "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" with Sara being on the De Trouw? On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are all > children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that lists > Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was > quite a common age to get married and have children during that time period. > > > It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The records > are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in with > the first settlers families. > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis > > Interesting theory. > > Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading > between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no > children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a > widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan > Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the > "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would > raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan > overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be > accounted for. Where are they? > > Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly > implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan > van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually > solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really > isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't > uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you > introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at > the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a > larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. > > It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may > unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more > about the theory. > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time to >> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I am >> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more > than >> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is below >> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I also >> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam as >> well. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >> >> >> >> >> >> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara > Theunis/Thomas. >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in The >> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French > ancestry. >> >> >> >> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which would >> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >> >> >> >> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed are >> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >> Wouters >> >> >> >> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen >> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >> >> >> >> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, > Susanna >> Le Maistre >> >> >> >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >> >> >> >> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> Tryntie Hercks >> >> >> >> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> >> >> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> >> >> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >> duplicates! >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >> >> >> >> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >> >> >> >> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara to >> Amsterdam? >> >> >> >> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Most people didn't get married until 17 or 18. 16 was pretty uncommon, and 15 almost unheard of. What I meant about the kids of the other Sara and Jan is that, since the records don't show other children by them, either one of them died or they moved. If one died, it should be in the records, especially if Jan died. If they moved, they should show up in records of Albany, or wherever they may have moved to. "Getting it right' would be solving problem(s). What is not "right" with Sara being on the De Trouw? On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Claggett <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: > John I believe you misunderstood.  I do believe the other children are all > children of our Jan and Sara, just not Dirkje. However the one that lists > Sara as Sara Thomas (Marie) makes me wonder a little bit.   Sixteen was > quite a common age to get married and have children during that time period. > > > It may not solve any problems but it just might get it right.  The records > are fitting together nicely and our Sara and Jan are fitting right in with > the first settlers families. > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 3:37 AM > To: vannorman@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis > > Interesting theory. > > Off hand, I can think of a few problems... Since you propose (reading > between the lines) that Jan and Sara of the marriage record had no > children other than Dirkje, either Jan or Sara died. There should be a > widower Jan somewhere (there clearly is no Sara, widow of Jan > Dirkszen). Or some of the children (including Jan Janse) could be the > "other" Jan and Sara's (which would be back to square one), and would > raise the question of why no children of the two pairs of Sara & Jan > overlap. Basically, you are creating two new people that need to be > accounted for. Where are they? > > Also, the court case with Jan being accused of stealing boots strongly > implies Jan "van Arnhem" is a soldier, creating a link between "Jan > van Arnhem" and "Jan the soldier". > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems this theory doesn't actually > solve any problems, except the early birth of Dirkje, which really > isn't a problem (as Pete pointed out, premature births weren't > uncommon, assuming she didn't concieve enroute). In turn, you > introduce a number of other problems. Sara's propossed age of 16 at > the birth of Magdalena (abt 15y 6m at conception) would itself be a > larger problem that Dirkje's birth date. > > It's certainly is worthwhile research - even if incorrect, you may > unearth a link between Jan T. and Sara. I look forward to hearing more > about the theory. > > On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM, Susan Claggett > <claimtofame@claggett6.com> wrote: >> I am working on proven that now John but it is going to take some time to >> sort it all out.  I went out and collected a lot of information and I am >> adding it to my tree now.  We know that we have been dealing with more > than >> one Jan Dircksen and Sara Theunis.  I think our Sara Theunis and Jan >> Dirckzen were born in New Amsterdam.  I think Sara's birth record is below >> with her either being born or baptized as an older child in 1653.  I also >> believe it is likely that our Jan Dirckszen was born in New Amsterdam as >> well. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1653 20 Apr; Theunis Janszen; Sara; David de Potter and his wife >> >> >> >> >> >> I think Dirckje may belong to another Jan Dirckszen and Sara > Theunis/Thomas. >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> I also think our Sara Theunis my have been from a Catholic family in The >> Netherlands like Pete had mentioned and that they had some French > ancestry. >> >> >> >> It may not have been our Sara Theunis on the De Trowe in 1664 which would >> solve the early baby dilemma. Magdelena should be the first born/named >> female and the sponsors fit perfectly. >> >> >> >> Below are the Baptismal records for the children that we have believed are >> of our Jan Dirckszen Van Aernhem and Sara Theunis. >> >> >> >> Susan >> >> >> >> 1664 Dec 31; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Dirckje; Tryntie Grevenraedt >> >> >> >> 1669 Aug 18; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Magdalena; Jilles Joosten, Maria >> Wouters >> >> >> >> 1671 Jun 04; Jan Dircxzen Van Aernhem, Sara Theunis; Jan; Jan Laurenszen >> Duyts, Mayken Laurens >> >> >> >> 1673 Apr 09; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Abraham; Jean le Maistre, > Susanna >> Le Maistre >> >> >> >> 1675 Jul 14; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Thomas; Marie; Willem Van Leyden >> >> >> >> 1677 Sep 26; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Catharina; David Hendrickszen, >> Tryntie Hercks >> >> >> >> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Isaac (twin); Daniel Terneur, >> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> >> >> 1680 Apr 03; Jan Dirckszen, Sara Theunis; Jacob (twin); Daniel Terneur, >> Hester de La Maistre, Marritie Pieters >> >> >> >> I am having trouble getting this message thru to Rootsweb.  Sorry if it >> duplicates! >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: jroguetech@gmail.com [mailto:jroguetech@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 1:00 AM >> >> To: vannorman@rootsweb.com >> >> Subject: Re: [VANNORMAN] I FOUND IT!!! Sara Theunis >> >> >> >> A lot of data... Could you peice it together for us? >> >> >> >> The critical question being what links Sara and Jan Theunissen, or Sara to >> Amsterdam? >> >> >> >> James Riker's comment is certainly intriguing, but it's unsourced. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VANNORMAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >