Alice, This is somewhat late,but in regards to what you have found to be familiar to German naming patterns , I have found almost the same in my husbands German early families. In the 1800's the first two names were often the same such as John George , then a baptismal name , followed by a call name, followed by the last name. Sometime the bap. and the call name were the same. Our German lines were Catholic. I was told by a priest in Germany , the first two names indicated this person was of the family of John George ,last name what ever , which in our case was Meiwes. My husbands grandfather bo 1839 Delbruck Germany was named John George Ferinand Benjamin Meiwes. He went by Benjamin. It seems this John George identified all male members of this family and in many families continued on to grandchildren etc..They did not always continue. Our family grandfather came to the US in 1850, married here and his several sons had only first, middle and last name. Most were called by their first name. This is a large family , most are Catholic and names are often repeated. My husband s father is Al, he is an Al jr, our son is the 3rd aqnd his son the 4th. This all came about before I began researching . One never knows . This really has not caused a problem in our family . Yet- I don't understand why you have not come up with at least one middle name. Maybe it has something to do with religion, which is why I stated ours. This John George is still used in some of our families in my husbands gen. and in all of our families back into the !600's as far as i've gotten. I'd like to know if you find any other patterns. Good Luck, Barbara. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alice" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:27 PM Subject: [VALOUDOU-L] middle names > Your question on the nameing practice is a good one....I do know that the early Dutch and German families very often had a first and middle name....My understanding is that they often used the middle name as what they called their "Calling" name and that the first name was a Baptismal name....In the eighteen Hundreds I also have had problems with the use of the same first name over and over in every generation and not a sign of a middle name....aaaahgh... > Maybe some one with more expertise can clarify a bit....Alice > > > ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== > Have you posted your Loudoun Co. surnames lately? > New members are joining our mailing list every day. > Be sure to periodically remind us of your Loudoun research interests. > >

The information is not from a published book. I am in the process of abstracting the Loudoun Order Books for future publication. I just posted the entry because I thought it was rather interesting to see how our forefathers were handling government and religion. Pat Duncan [email protected] [email protected] wrote: >How can I get to this book? > Duncan wrote: Those interested in the more recent controversy over the removal of a ten commandments monument from a courthouse might find this interesting. The following appear in Loudoun Co Order Book 5, page 135, 12 Nov 1811: On the motion of Charles Gullatt ordered that the keeper of the key of the Courthouse do deliver to any minister of the Gospel the said key for the purpose of holding divine Worship therein taking care that the said key be restored in due time. Pat Duncan [email protected] > > >==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== >The First Sunday in each month will set aside for a "Brick Wall" Roll Call. Please always put the surname you seek in the subject and tell us something about your Brick Wall person. > > > >

How can I get to this book?

Another pattern that I have noted is that in the time period around 1850-1880 there were a lot of folks named after famous people such as George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Benjamin Franklin, Francis Marion, etc. Charlie Templer

One thing we have noticed in the TEMPLER family is that there seemed to be the surnames of family friends used for middle names. We know of no other connection than they were families in the area. Also noticed that on other lines in Pennsylvania as well. Charlie Templer

I found that my ancestor John Hurst (c 1675 - 1747) from Stafford County was being listed in some places as "John J. Hurst." The "J" was his mark, not his middle initial. Bill Hurst

from http://www.genealogy.com/rhonda041802.html A History of Middle Names Few Americans were giving their children middle names in the 17th century until the German immigrants introduced this naming custom to America. They were in the habit of giving their children two given names at baptism. The first given name was a spiritual name, often a favorite saint's name, and the second one, which would later be known as the middle name, was the secular name. The secular name, or "call name" was the name by which the child was known and the name used in legal records. It was not uncommon for the spiritual name to be the same for all the children of the same sex within the family. While the Germans would bring this custom to America, it was not until the early 19th century that the custom caught on with others. By the 1840s, it had grown into a popular practice. According to a study of college records, in 1840 about 92 percent of the students at Princeton had middle names. This custom would continue to grow and by World War I it was assumed that everyone in America had a middle name. As genealogists, we should be thankful for this practice and how it grew. Many middle names are family names and when combined with other research, these names can help in building a case of connection from one generation to another. This is especially true when the middle name of a child in one generation is obscure and matches the given name of the potential grandparent. In Conclusion So the next time you are working with ancestry, take a look at when middle names became prevalent in your tree. Does your family follow the traditions discussed here? See Rhonda's Previous Columns Rhonda R. McClure is a professional genealogist specializing in celebrity trees and computerized genealogy. She has been involved in online genealogy for fifteen years. She is the author of the award-winning The Complete Idiot's Guide to Online Genealogy , now in its second edition. She is the author of four how-to guides on Family Tree Maker . In late 2001, she wrote The Genealogist's Computer Companion . She is a contributing editor to Biography Magazine with her "Celebrity Roots" column and a contributing writer to The History Channel Magazine . Her latest book is Finding Your Famous and Infamous Ancestors . She may be contacted at [email protected] .

[email protected] wrote on 6/16/2005, 4:50 PM: > 1850-1880 there were a lot of folks named after famous people such as > George > Washington, Andrew Jackson, Benjamin Franklin, Francis Marion, etc. This began in the Helm family on or right after 1800. It seems pretty uncommon after the Civil War altho there are one or two interesting exceptions. All the names mentioned are quite common, except Andrew Jackson. My family had 3 brothers with those names (two other brothers: my ancestor James Madison Helm (b 1810), and youngest brother Thomas Jefferson Helm).

This has been an interesting thread. If memory serves I seem to recall that in the 1600's and earlier) middle names were a prerogative of the titled and royal. If you run down the index of names in your collection you will see that the general use of a middle name begins to appear about the mid 1700's. pjd 6/16/05

Naming Patters: My family have continued the basic naming pattern, with occasional variations. They have basically continued through my father's generation. My Grandmother named her first female child after both Grandmothers, as she herself was named. (Though she was the 2nd female.) I've driven my self crazy chasing the middle names of my Rust Great Great Grandparent's generation. I can find NO connection to any family. (Of course, I haven't found all of the femalee lines either.) If anyone has a clue, I'd love to know it. I have figured they were surely named after admired friends. John RUST, son of Benedict Rust & Jane MIDDLETON, b. 1769, West. Co, VA. Lived in Old Frederick Co, VA. + Elizabeth MARSHALL, b. 1779, Frederick Co, MD. Marshall Woodcock Rust, b. 1801 I can figure. MARSHALL was mom's maiden name. WOODCOCK was an Uncle. John BUSHROD Rust, b. 1811 (Old Fred. Co, VA..now Warren Co, VA.) Charles BUCKNER CARROLL Rust, b. 1816, same location. I find no BUSHRODs, except other relatives who use it for given names. Same for BUCKNER and CARROLL. There is a Charles Carroll in Maryland; but so far, I have not found a connection. I am still missing Elizabeth Marshall's mother's maiden surname. (Also an Elizabeth) All those Rusts were cousins to the Rusts in Fauquier & Loudoun Counties, VA. I've seen family letters which speak of visits between them. Shirley

Thank you Bob! Brenda J Scott -----Original Message----- From: Bob Wissinger [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 2:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names Here is a link to an excellent article on 18th Century Pennsylvania German Naming Customs & Patterns: http://www.kerchner.com/germname.htm -----Original Message----- From: Scott, Brenda [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:50 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names Brenda J Scott For naming practices in the late 1700's and early to mid 1800's in Va, with possible ancestry from Western European (English, Welsh, Scottish) would the middle name of male children be a family name, or would it be more of the modern practices such as Robert William Jones? My John Alexander Stephens/Stevens born cir 1811 is just the hardest man to trace back to any parent or sibling, indeed any prior relative at all. I'm just wondering if the Alexander in his name could be a family surname. Any thoughts? ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== To contact Listowner: Rena Worthen [email protected] Researching JEWEL in Loudoun Co.;FISHER in Fauquier Co.; HATCHER in Henrico Co. __________________________________________________________ Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com 1:50:33 PM ET - 6/16/2005 ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== To contact Listowner: Rena Worthen [email protected] Researching JEWEL in Loudoun Co.

I really appreciate the help you have afforded me and the samples to help me visualize what I'm up against. I'm going to check out the census to see if any Alexanders lived close to my Stephens/Stevens in Loudoun, Fauquier and or Fairfax counties, Va Brenda J Scott Dispatcher-Smart Parks -----Original Message----- From: Janean Ray [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 2:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names There are variations of course but from "In Search of Your British and Irish Roots" by Angus Baxter, 1982, refers to the custom in use in England and Wales from 1700 - 1875 1st son named after father's father 2nd son after the mother's father 3rd son after the father 4th son after the father's eldest brother 5th son after the father's second oldest brother or mother's eldest brother 1st daughter after mother's mother 2nd daughter after father's mother 3rd daughter after the mother 4th daughter after the mother's eldest sister 5th daughter after mother's second oldest sister of father's oldest sister. There were exceptions if the eldest son was named John after the father's father, and the mother's father was also named John, the second son was named after the father. Younger children were then named after other family members and/or neighbors - friends. My Wilson/Chinn family followed this pattern to a tee. Their children were born between 1797 and 1817. However the middle names were a different story. Mom's middle name was Travers which was the first name of her grandfather. Her brother's middle name was their father's first name, not sure where they got his first name from. Their sister's middle name was the mom's maiden name. The kids went like this William Travers Wilson (now since the father's father was William Wilson they couldn't very well do William Wilson Wilson so the middle name was mom's middle name) Frances Tarpley Wilson (mother's mother Frances Tarpley) Rawleigh Chinn Wilson (mother's father Rawleigh Chinn) Lucy Jones Wilson (should be father's mother Lucy Jones) haven't proven that yet because Lucy Jones was also the married name of mom's aunt and mom's younger sister. John Stretchley Wilson (father's first name and Stretchley is a family name on mom's side) Jane Elizabeth Wilson (mom didn't have an older sister named Jane, this could also be the father's mom or his sister in law who was named Jane) Samuel Porter Wilson (no clue except Samuel was the name of mom's brother but there was also a Samuel Porter in Loudoun Co. could have been a friend) Jacob Dodridge Wilson (Jacob should be father's younger brother but don't know where the Dodridge name came from) etc...... Janean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott, Brenda" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names > > > Brenda J Scott > > For naming practices in the late 1700's and early to mid 1800's in Va, > with possible ancestry from Western European (English, Welsh, Scottish) > would the middle name of male children be a family name, or would it be > more of the modern practices such as Robert William Jones? > My John Alexander Stephens/Stevens born cir 1811 is just the hardest man > to trace back to any parent or sibling, indeed any prior relative at > all. I'm just wondering if the Alexander in his name could be a family > surname. Any thoughts? > > > > > ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== > To contact Listowner: > Rena Worthen [email protected] > Researching JEWEL in Loudoun Co.;FISHER in Fauquier Co.; HATCHER in Henrico Co. > > ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== Have you posted your Loudoun Co. surnames lately? New members are joining our mailing list every day. Be sure to periodically remind us of your Loudoun research interests.

This is a keeper! Brenda J Scott -----Original Message----- From: Janean Ray [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 2:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names There are variations of course but from "In Search of Your British and Irish Roots" by Angus Baxter, 1982, refers to the custom in use in England and Wales from 1700 - 1875 1st son named after father's father 2nd son after the mother's father 3rd son after the father 4th son after the father's eldest brother 5th son after the father's second oldest brother or mother's eldest brother 1st daughter after mother's mother 2nd daughter after father's mother 3rd daughter after the mother 4th daughter after the mother's eldest sister 5th daughter after mother's second oldest sister of father's oldest sister. There were exceptions if the eldest son was named John after the father's father, and the mother's father was also named John, the second son was named after the father. Younger children were then named after other family members and/or neighbors - friends. My Wilson/Chinn family followed this pattern to a tee. Their children were born between 1797 and 1817. However the middle names were a different story. Mom's middle name was Travers which was the first name of her grandfather. Her brother's middle name was their father's first name, not sure where they got his first name from. Their sister's middle name was the mom's maiden name. The kids went like this William Travers Wilson (now since the father's father was William Wilson they couldn't very well do William Wilson Wilson so the middle name was mom's middle name) Frances Tarpley Wilson (mother's mother Frances Tarpley) Rawleigh Chinn Wilson (mother's father Rawleigh Chinn) Lucy Jones Wilson (should be father's mother Lucy Jones) haven't proven that yet because Lucy Jones was also the married name of mom's aunt and mom's younger sister. John Stretchley Wilson (father's first name and Stretchley is a family name on mom's side) Jane Elizabeth Wilson (mom didn't have an older sister named Jane, this could also be the father's mom or his sister in law who was named Jane) Samuel Porter Wilson (no clue except Samuel was the name of mom's brother but there was also a Samuel Porter in Loudoun Co. could have been a friend) Jacob Dodridge Wilson (Jacob should be father's younger brother but don't know where the Dodridge name came from) etc...... Janean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott, Brenda" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names > > > Brenda J Scott > > For naming practices in the late 1700's and early to mid 1800's in Va, > with possible ancestry from Western European (English, Welsh, Scottish) > would the middle name of male children be a family name, or would it be > more of the modern practices such as Robert William Jones? > My John Alexander Stephens/Stevens born cir 1811 is just the hardest man > to trace back to any parent or sibling, indeed any prior relative at > all. I'm just wondering if the Alexander in his name could be a family > surname. Any thoughts? > > > > > ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== > To contact Listowner: > Rena Worthen [email protected] > Researching JEWEL in Loudoun Co.;FISHER in Fauquier Co.; HATCHER in Henrico Co. > > ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== Have you posted your Loudoun Co. surnames lately? New members are joining our mailing list every day. Be sure to periodically remind us of your Loudoun research interests.

Thank you for your reply! I had heard rumors that there was a Dutch connection in my family. The John in question does seem to be possibly or Western European extraction. Brenda J Scott Dispatcher-Smart Parks -----Original Message----- From: Alice [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 2:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [VALOUDOU-L] middle names Your question on the nameing practice is a good one....I do know that the early Dutch and German families very often had a first and middle name....My understanding is that they often used the middle name as what they called their "Calling" name and that the first name was a Baptismal name....In the eighteen Hundreds I also have had problems with the use of the same first name over and over in every generation and not a sign of a middle name....aaaahgh... Maybe some one with more expertise can clarify a bit....Alice ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== Have you posted your Loudoun Co. surnames lately? New members are joining our mailing list every day. Be sure to periodically remind us of your Loudoun research interests.

Here is a link to an excellent article on 18th Century Pennsylvania German Naming Customs & Patterns: http://www.kerchner.com/germname.htm -----Original Message----- From: Scott, Brenda [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:50 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names Brenda J Scott For naming practices in the late 1700's and early to mid 1800's in Va, with possible ancestry from Western European (English, Welsh, Scottish) would the middle name of male children be a family name, or would it be more of the modern practices such as Robert William Jones? My John Alexander Stephens/Stevens born cir 1811 is just the hardest man to trace back to any parent or sibling, indeed any prior relative at all. I'm just wondering if the Alexander in his name could be a family surname. Any thoughts? ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== To contact Listowner: Rena Worthen [email protected] Researching JEWEL in Loudoun Co.;FISHER in Fauquier Co.; HATCHER in Henrico Co. __________________________________________________________ Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com 1:50:33 PM ET - 6/16/2005

There are variations of course but from "In Search of Your British and Irish Roots" by Angus Baxter, 1982, refers to the custom in use in England and Wales from 1700 - 1875 1st son named after father's father 2nd son after the mother's father 3rd son after the father 4th son after the father's eldest brother 5th son after the father's second oldest brother or mother's eldest brother 1st daughter after mother's mother 2nd daughter after father's mother 3rd daughter after the mother 4th daughter after the mother's eldest sister 5th daughter after mother's second oldest sister of father's oldest sister. There were exceptions if the eldest son was named John after the father's father, and the mother's father was also named John, the second son was named after the father. Younger children were then named after other family members and/or neighbors - friends. My Wilson/Chinn family followed this pattern to a tee. Their children were born between 1797 and 1817. However the middle names were a different story. Mom's middle name was Travers which was the first name of her grandfather. Her brother's middle name was their father's first name, not sure where they got his first name from. Their sister's middle name was the mom's maiden name. The kids went like this William Travers Wilson (now since the father's father was William Wilson they couldn't very well do William Wilson Wilson so the middle name was mom's middle name) Frances Tarpley Wilson (mother's mother Frances Tarpley) Rawleigh Chinn Wilson (mother's father Rawleigh Chinn) Lucy Jones Wilson (should be father's mother Lucy Jones) haven't proven that yet because Lucy Jones was also the married name of mom's aunt and mom's younger sister. John Stretchley Wilson (father's first name and Stretchley is a family name on mom's side) Jane Elizabeth Wilson (mom didn't have an older sister named Jane, this could also be the father's mom or his sister in law who was named Jane) Samuel Porter Wilson (no clue except Samuel was the name of mom's brother but there was also a Samuel Porter in Loudoun Co. could have been a friend) Jacob Dodridge Wilson (Jacob should be father's younger brother but don't know where the Dodridge name came from) etc...... Janean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott, Brenda" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:50 PM Subject: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names > > > Brenda J Scott > > For naming practices in the late 1700's and early to mid 1800's in Va, > with possible ancestry from Western European (English, Welsh, Scottish) > would the middle name of male children be a family name, or would it be > more of the modern practices such as Robert William Jones? > My John Alexander Stephens/Stevens born cir 1811 is just the hardest man > to trace back to any parent or sibling, indeed any prior relative at > all. I'm just wondering if the Alexander in his name could be a family > surname. Any thoughts? > > > > > ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== > To contact Listowner: > Rena Worthen [email protected] > Researching JEWEL in Loudoun Co.;FISHER in Fauquier Co.; HATCHER in Henrico Co. > >

Oh! You know, it's funny because I have seen it listed in one record as Alexander John Stephens, and in 95 % of the others, John Alexander or John A. I know his children; born cir mid 1800 to 1860's all had numerous middle names. I appreciate your reply! Brenda J Scott -----Original Message----- From: michael helm [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 2:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [VALOUDOU-L] Middle names Just shooting from the hip ... I can't think of a single person from the 17th or 18th century in my families, who has a confirmed middle name. I can't even think of anyone with a hidden middle name eg William P Lastname: no use of initials. For example, in the Helm family espec. in Frederick Co, where there numerous Williams, Thomases, Merediths &c it's very difficult to separate them in the legal system and land records. You'd think that if they had middle names or initials, they would have used them, or the courts would have required it of them. Instead they struggle with Jnr and Snr (whose senior to whom? How many diff't Jnrs can there be &c). In the 19th century middle names are everywhere and we often see people using a middle name, switching the order, or switching back and forth! ==== VALOUDOU Mailing List ==== The First Sunday in each month will set aside for a "Brick Wall" Roll Call. Please always put the surname you seek in the subject and tell us something about your Brick Wall person.

AMEN And so it should be. There is no separation of Church & State. The framers did not want a State Religion. That is the reason for the Clause "Congress shall make no law concerning the Establishment of Religon" BILL C

Brenda J Scott For naming practices in the late 1700's and early to mid 1800's in Va, with possible ancestry from Western European (English, Welsh, Scottish) would the middle name of male children be a family name, or would it be more of the modern practices such as Robert William Jones? My John Alexander Stephens/Stevens born cir 1811 is just the hardest man to trace back to any parent or sibling, indeed any prior relative at all. I'm just wondering if the Alexander in his name could be a family surname. Any thoughts?

Your question on the nameing practice is a good one....I do know that the early Dutch and German families very often had a first and middle name....My understanding is that they often used the middle name as what they called their "Calling" name and that the first name was a Baptismal name....In the eighteen Hundreds I also have had problems with the use of the same first name over and over in every generation and not a sign of a middle name....aaaahgh... Maybe some one with more expertise can clarify a bit....Alice