Posted on: Caroline Co. Va Query Forum Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Va/Caroline?read=1300 Surname: PENN, PAYNE, PAINE ------------------------- George Penn, husband of Ann __?__, is nowhere in the direct line of John Penn, "The Signer" of the DOI. He is his uncle. John Penn, Sr., who died in Caroline Co., VA in 1741 probably married Elizabeth Madison, daughter of John Madison, Jr., (circa 1655-circa 1720), and he was the father of four known children: John Penn, Jr., George Penn (who married Ann), Joseph Penn (my ancestor), and Moses Penn (father of "The Signer"). I have primary sources which prove the existence of an Elizabeth Penn, an adult in 1723, who was in King & Queen Co. or Spotsylvania Co., VA who was a Godparent to two of Ambrose Madison's children born in the 1720s (bible record), and I have the reference of the Will of this John Penn, Sr., which was proved in Caroline Co., VA in 1741 by Elizabeth Penn and Moses Penn (who I assume to have been his wife and son). I admit that this evidence is not conclusive, but it rises to the level of probability to me. It may very well be that a George Penn who was a headright (along with a Mary Pendleton) of John Pigg and Frances Crane who on 5 Oct. 1679 received a land patent of 800 acres in New Kent Co., VA, adjacent to William Hurk (Hurt?), William Horne, Anthony Arnold, Henry Pigg's Mill Path, Mill Creek Swamp and JOHN MADISON'S Spring Branch (Patent Book 7, page 113). "Cavaliers and Pioneers", by Nugent, reports the headright to this Patent as George Denn, but viewing the digital image of the patent itself at the Virginia State Library website looks like "Penn" to me. This is an educated guess which is a strong possibility to me because of the Pendleton and Madison connection, but not yet a probability in my mind. This George Penn is definitely not the person who married Ann __?__ and had the documented children who began to be born in the 1730s. I have not included the evidence to prove the four children of John Penn, Sr., because it is off the topic and would take too much space. The above is part of the primary source proof that Moses, father of "The Signer", was his son. I too have wondered whether the names Pain, Payne, Paine could have been clerk's hearing or writing error. I have searched all Pain, Payne and Paine reference I could find in VA and I have not found even one instance where Pain, Payne or Paine was used when referring to a Penn ancestor. I have found that Payne and Paine were used interchangeably for the same person.