Posted on: Caroline Co. Va Query Forum Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Va/Caroline?read=1290 Surname: PENN, FLEMING ------------------------- I do not consider myself an expert on Fleming. I do consider myself an expert on the Penns of VA in the 17th and 18th century. There is conclusive and indisputable primary source proof (bible record) that John Penn, the Signer of the Declaration of Independence, was the son of Moses Penn and Catherine Pendleton, born May 6, 1740. What primary source proof is there Ann FLEMING married George Penn? Other 20th century allegations are not primary sources. In the late 1970s there was a Penn publication called "Penn Pals" which I subscribed to and this is the first place where I read that Ann's last name was "Fleming?" This was a matter of controversy then. Gabriel Penn was born July 17, 1741. Middle names were not in common usage then. What primary source proof is there that his middle name was Fleming? If this can be documented by primary source evidence then I would concede that there is a possibility that Ann could be a Fleming. If a middle name was used in honor for a mother's father, usually the first name of the child is the same as the mother's father's first name too. That is to say, that one would expect that Ann's father would be Gabriel Fleming, rather than William or Charles Fleming. I simply find no other evidence associating the Fleming name to the Penn name in the first half of the 18th century (or before). All of this has caused me to doubt the Fleming allegation for Ann's last name. Then when one adds the fact that an Ann Fleming married a Josias Payne, one sees a reason why somebody ,who substituted wishful thinking for good genealogical research, may have said that "Josias Payne" must be referring to "George Penn", blaming some clerk for a screw up in the spelling. I am not saying that Ann, wife of George Penn is not Ann Fleming. I will not accept anybody's assertion that she is a Fleming unless there is (are) a primary source(s) which increase what I believe is wild guessing into the catagory of a probability. Mr. Harrison's assertions concerning Ann Fleming would be entitled to greater weight if he did not also assert that John Penn, son of George Penn, was the Signer of the Declaration of Independence. George Penn did not have a son John to my knowledge and if he did, he was not the Signer of the Declaration of Independence.