Fellow Bedford-L friends, I should apologize for my sarcastic comment - it slipped out. I was trying to say that illegitimacy is not new, nor was it uncommon then, nor was it by any means one of the particularly damaging qualities of their society. My remark was motivated by my belief that often, we moderns don't look very deeply at the lives of the Early Americans when we suppose their "Values." Quakers would not disown a couple for unwed intimacy, but they would disown people for dressing up in fancy clothes. I have seen Quaker records where the father of an illegitimate child was condemned, BUT it is clear that it was the failure to take responsibility for the child (not the moral quality of intimacy) that was criticized. Here are a few examples of how the early Americans were just as morally irresponsible as we: 1] They tolerated human slavery (though they had ample opportunity to hear better from the Quakers and many others), instead choosing the rationale that this was really a matter of freedom of ownership of "personal property" 2] They broke nearly every treaty they ever made with the Indians. 3] No sooner had the Revolution ended than the conservative elements in VA - Washington, and Henry - were trying to enact new religious tests for teachers, etc. (ex: Virginia's "Christian Teachers Law") While the liberals, Jefferson, Zane, and Wythe, understood that separation actually encourages private - personal - talks with God. 4] Nearly all the states sent the Constitution back unratified one or more times because the drafters would not approve a "National Religion" - thank God (I mean it), those wise men understood that corporate religious power on earth is evil. The Quakers had it right, God speaks to individuals - helping each individually to act morally; not to leaders for the purpose of helping them to force others to behave. Not coincidentally, all the Virginia delegates to the convention of 1775-76 had either a parent, grandparent, or important teacher who was a Quaker- Patrick Henry dressed as a Quaker in Philadelphia - they stayed in the home of a Quaker. 5] The 1830 VA constitution counted slaves as population so that the western Counties could never get fair representation in the legislature If you are still reading, let me thank you for your tolerance. My impolite comment to the VABEDFORD-L was inappropriate. This comment is offered freely and as an expression of my opinnion alone. I invite private or public comment (but let's don't torture the ones who don't wish to read). Ed > Do you have something against VALUES?