Thank you, Margaret, for asking about my Melungeon and Indian ancestors. I cannot tell you much which is why I listen to the list. I do know there were many Indian/White laisons/marriages in Upper East TN very early. I suspect this is part of the difficulty in tracking several different families I have run into. There were many Indian families in upper East TN in the mid/late 1700's. Most of the whites thought they were in VA and obviously weren't. I had a white male (Nathan Hawkins) who had traveled down from Baltimore Maryland after 1768, when he last appears on any document in Baltimore, and 1774, when he first is listed on Militia lists for Fincastle Co VA. He was in Dunmore's War. His son, Matthew, whom I suspect married an Indian woman signed the Watauga Petition. Matthew is listed in Wilkes Co NC in the 1780's and in the 1790's is in Greeneville SC. 1801 Matthew is listed as a first inhabitant of Anderson Co TN and was in Knox, previously. There was a whole group of people who were in Upper East TN, North of Holston, Watauga, etc... who went down to Greeneville SC and then about 1799 came back up together around Anderson Co. Anderson was cut out of Knox. Matthew and his son, Aaron, went out to the Yellow Banks (Owensborough KY) in 1817/1818 where Aaron stayed. Matthew, eventually, went on to Indiana and died on Honey Creek Prairie ca 1824. He was headed for Fountain County, IN where Matthew Maddox died ca 1834 and had lent a son of Matthew Hawkins money to buy land there. Aaron and his Melungeon/Indian wife, Elizabeth A. Madox, had a son, James Dixon Hawkins, who went to Mexico. He became a surgeon and Texas Ranger. He married a Mexican woman and lived in Candela, Coahuila his entire life. James Dixon's sister, Mahala, married a Cherokee gentleman, James McCray in Ohio Co KY 1844. Many Cherokee and Melungeon people went to the area around the Sabine and Naganoches (sp) area of Texas because they were "safe" there. Remember the Bowl went to Mexico. So did Sequoia. We were everywhere and nowhere. Remember the Cherokee Chief, Little Carpenter, was Algonquin. (Note: The abovementioned, Matthew Maddox had a wife, Dicy Guinn who appears to have been Indian. After his death, she left and went to Fort Smith, Arkansas.) Mahala and James are dead mysteriously and their children become servants for the neighbors "on or before 13 Feb 1863", from court documents. One neighbor is murdered for taking in the child/young woman... and is tried for manslaughter... I have traced the Hawkins family well back into Maryland. They were of Scot origin. Their immigrant came onto this continent with the Winthrop Fleet 1630 (founded Salem and then Boston, because it was a better harbor) and into Anne Arundel Co MD 1651. He was a mariner. He was easy to track because he kept going into court and moaning that the people he was hauling freight for weren't going to pay him. His sons remained in Maryland in the Baltimore/Anne Arundel Co vacinity. It is the next generation that started migrating down through VA into Upper East TN, NC and such. Of all the Maddox/Maddux/Madox/Maddocks etc... I have looked at, I have not seen any that even remotely look like they would be suspects for my Elizabeth's family. I haven't a clue where she may have been to have married Aaron Hawkins in Anderson Co TN in 1814. I haven't a marriage license only their bible. I suspect many records are missing and/or destroyed from the Civil War. I know there must be other people who are of her family somewhere. I just keep my ear to the ground, listening. Thanks for the interest, Jeanne

Lois, I am sure you have probably done a lot research on the Battle of Point Pleasant but the history I have read indicates that the Battle of Point Pleasant was essentially over when Dunnmore and his troops arrived.. After the battle, when he arrived, he went into a conference with Cornstalk. The militia were kept a distance from the meeting with the Indians so a new battle would not start.. The Virginia Militia wanted a decisive victory! GLH > Lois, You wrote in part: We Lawsons that have a Crowley/Croley line have the distinction of descending from Samuel Crowley, father of Littleberry. Samuel is my 4th gr grandfather. Samuel Crowley and another man in the VA militia was sent across the Ohio River to spy on Cornstalk and Dunsmore at their camp. On the way back to give their report to the Militia officers, Samuel Crowley was killed. Fortunately the other spy made it back. It has been written in history books it was the info gained in the spying expedition that enabled the VA Militia to win the Battle of Point Pleasant. This battle has now been accepted as the first battle of the Rev. War. > G. Lee Hearl Authentic Appalachian Storyteller Abingdon, Va.

How interesting! Thanks for sharing that! Was it a GRAHAM who made it back with the information? I happen to be a GRAHAM, too. **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

To the Bedford list a big thank you on the thread about the different Indian and Revoluntionary battles. As someone who's line did go settle in Tenn. on the Powell River, in what is now Hancock Co., Tn.?I?decided to share last weeks thread with another list.? I thought this list might find Lois's response interesting. G ++++++++++++++++++++++++? Ginny... We Lawsons that have a Crowley/Croley line have the distinction of descending from Samuel Crowley, father of Littleberry. Samuel is my 4th gr grandfather. Samuel Crowley and another man in the VA militia was sent across the Ohio River to spy on Cornstalk and Dunsmore at their camp. On the way back to give their report to the Militia officers, Samuel Crowley was killed. Fortunately the other spy made it back. It has been written in history books it was the info gained in the spying expedition that enabled the VA Militia to win the Battle of Point Pleasant. This battle has now been accepted as the first battle of the Rev. War. The House of Burgess allotted a pension for his wife, Elizabeth Strong Crowley, and their son, 4 year old Littleberry Crowley. As an aside here's a mind blower...as many of you know I was in Real Estate for over 20 years. I sold the house next door to me to a friends from church, Jim and Nova. It was Jim that kept encouraging me until I gave in and went back to digging for ancestors. One evening we were sitting on the patio chatting and got to talking about Point Pleasant. I about fell off my chair when he told me Nova's 4th?Grt granddaddy was a spy the night before the battle. He was telling how the granddaddy had made it back with the report but the other spy had been killed. Then I blew Jim's mind when I told him my granddaddy had been the other spy. A?few months later, I took over a 1750's plot map?for Lancaster PA. Thomas and John Sharp's properties joined Nova's Graham's property. Soon I discovered John Sharp's father in law was Nova's Graham's. Never let it be said it's not a small world...Lois ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

You will notice in my reply that I stated that the RANDOLPHS are my direct ancestors, but the others named were not. Also, there is a difference of opinion as to the name of the father of William STITH of William & Mary College. Some say he was William and some say John. I have both names in my chart. So far, I happen to believe that he, too, was John. But as I said, there are both opinions. With the proper documentary proof, I could be persuaded that he was William. There are also differing opinions as to the surname of the Jane who married John STITH, Sr., with pretty convincing arguments on both sides. I'm thinking that she was Jane PARSONS GREGORY, but I do not know. Velma **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Since the Irvine's attended Hatt Creek Church in Bedford/Campbell Co., VA, I was wondering if they would have any info on Publius Jones, Littleberry Cox, and others who attended there. Floyd

In a message dated 1/30/2008 4:17:31 AM Central Standard Time, edwirvin@yahoo.com writes: To Velma: You should be proud of your descent. Your family is about as old as it gets in Virginia. The Stith's married into the Bollings and Randolphs. They descended through Jane Rolfe, the granddaughter of John Rolfe and Rebecca Rolfe. (Pocahontas). You can't get much farther back than that. The Roosevelts claim descent from these folks. My Scotch-Irish did not show up until the late 1720's, a hundred years later. ****** Yes, I am, Edwin. However, some of those you mentioned are not in my direct line. But the Randolphs are. I have several other well known families in Va. of which I am quite proud. I guess this is not the place to name them. This is why I would so love to visit Va., but I doubt if that will happen now. Who were your Scotch-Irish families? Irvine? Were they in the Bedford area? I hope your friend gets it worked out. If nothing else, I would do the subscribing a second time. Thanks, Velma **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Edwin, It would probably be best for your friend or you to email the administrator. This line was below your email: To contact the list admin, email: _VABEDFOR-admin@rootsweb.com_ (mailto:VABEDFOR-admin@rootsweb.com) Velma **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Sorry to contradict, but unless there is another branch of Stiths that I'm unaware of who were descended from Pocahontas, the major part of the Stith family are not descendants. Ann Stith married Robert Bolling, who was the great-grandson of Pocahontas, but their descendants were Bollings, not Stiths. Her Stith family and all their descendants were not descendants. There were several marriages between Stiths and descendants of Pocahontas, but, again, the bulk of the Stith family were not descendants. Which isn't to say they weren't one of the grand old Virginia families. They were. Just not known descendants of Pocahontas. Also, Velma said, in a previous posting: /"Richard RANDOLPH was not my ancestor, but I suspect he was a brother to Mary RANDOLPH, who married my many times great grandfather Capt. John STITH, JR. (ca 1664). Mary's father was Col. William RANDOLPH of Turkey Island, Speaker of the House of Burgesses 1698. William's father was Richard RANDOLPH. I do not have documents to prove all of this."/ According to my sources (Genealogies of Virginia Families V, R-Z, Tuckahoe and the Tuckahoe Randolphs), unless they are wrong, this Mary Randolph, sister to Richard Randolph (and children of William Randolph and Mary Isham of Turkey Island, grandchildren to Richard Randolph and Elizabeth Ryland of Ireland) was married to William Stith, not John Stith. This John Stith (m. Jane) was his (William Stith's) father, and also father to Ann Stith (m Robert Bolling) mentioned above. (William Stith also had a brother, John Stith. Perhaps this is the John Stith, Jr. you refer to above. I do not have any information on who this John Stith married). Descendants of John Stith 1 John Stith .. + Jane unknown m: 1656 . 2 William Stith ..... + Mary Randolph b: Bef. 1681 m: About 1712 ..... 3 William Stith b: 1689 d: September 19, 1755 ......... + Judith Randolph b: About 1716 m: July 13, 1738 ..... 3 John Stith ......... + Elizabeth Anderson ..... *2nd Wife of John Stith: ......... + Mary Fleming ..... 3 Mary Stith b: 1715 d: 1785 ......... + William Dawson m: 1733 . 2 John Stith . 2 Ann Stith ..... + Robert Bolling b: December 26, 1646 d: July 17, 1709 m: 1681 ..... 3 Robert Bolling b: January 26, 1685/86 d: 1749 ......... + Mary Ann Cocke b: 1688 m: About January 27, 1705/06 ..... 3 Stith Bolling b: March 28, 1686 ..... 3 Edward Bolling b: October 1, 1687 d: 1710 ..... 3 Anne Bolling b: July 22, 1690 ......... + Robert Wynne b: 1685 ..... 3 Drury Bolling b: June 21, 1695 d: 1726 ......... + Elizabeth Merriwether b: 1699 ..... 3 Thomas Bolling b: March 30, 1698 ..... 3 Agnes Bolling b: November 30, 1700 d: 1762 ......... + Richard Kennon b: 1690 ..... 3 Mary Molly Bolling b: 1702 ......... + Andrew Baker b: 1692 . 2 Drury Stith ..... + Susannah Bathurst Drema http://genealogy.drema.com Edwin "Tex" Irvin wrote: > To Velma: You should be proud of your descent. Your family is about as old as it gets in Virginia. The Stith's married into the Bollings and Randolphs. They descended through Jane Rolfe, the granddaughter of John Rolfe and Rebecca Rolfe. (Pocahontas). You can't get much farther back than that. The Roosevelts claim descent from these folks. My Scotch-Irish did not show up until the late 1720's, a hundred years later. On a seperate issue: A friend of mine and serious researcher signed up for this forum two weeks ago, and has yet to receive anything. He has much to offer. If anyone knows the administrator, ask them about it. I suspect it is one of those automatic response programs. My friend's name is Davis Reese. Edwin > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > To post to the list, email: VABEDFOR@rootsweb.com > To contact the list admin, email: VABEDFOR-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VABEDFOR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

To Velma: You should be proud of your descent. Your family is about as old as it gets in Virginia. The Stith's married into the Bollings and Randolphs. They descended through Jane Rolfe, the granddaughter of John Rolfe and Rebecca Rolfe. (Pocahontas). You can't get much farther back than that. The Roosevelts claim descent from these folks. My Scotch-Irish did not show up until the late 1720's, a hundred years later. On a seperate issue: A friend of mine and serious researcher signed up for this forum two weeks ago, and has yet to receive anything. He has much to offer. If anyone knows the administrator, ask them about it. I suspect it is one of those automatic response programs. My friend's name is Davis Reese. Edwin

In a message dated 1/27/2008 8:39:07 AM Central Standard Time, edwirvin@yahoo.com writes: The Stith family is very old in Virginia, also. I have seen them way back, like in the 1660's? Edwin ***** Thank you for the link, Edwin. That was very interesting. I know what you mean, because I have found mistakes in the William and Mary Quarterly, where there is quite a bit of STITH information. Yes, our John STITH was born abt 1625 in Kirkham, Lancashire, England, and then he died in abt 1694 in Westover Parish, Charles City Co., Va. I don't have the exact date that they came to America. Thanks, Velma **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

FYI - I wrote a very nice account of "the battle of point pleasant" in my 2005 "Buford Families in America" book. The book can be viewed and purchased at the Bedford Museum - Bedford, KY. Fern K. Buford Walker www.bufordfamilies.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "G. Lee Hearl" <glh@naxs.com> To: <vabedfor@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [VABEDFOR] Battle of Point Pleasant 1774 > It appears to me that there is a misunderstanding about Dunnmores War. > Some writers of messages have indicated that Dunnmores' War was a war > against Dunnmore.. Dunnmore was forced to leave Virginia, as I understand > it, but the Battle of Point Pleasant was not against Dunnmore. It was > against the Northern Indians who were harrassing the surveyors in Kentucky > in 1774 and attacking settlers on the Clinch, Powell and Holston Rivers in > Southwest Va and Tenn. Dunnmore called for all the militia units in South > west Va. to meet him and the Army units he had gathered at Point Pleasant > to > fight the Indians.. Dunnmore made a treaty with the Indians after the > battle > and was later forced to leave Va. and Dunnmore County, Va. was renamed > "Shenandoah Co." GLH > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > To post to the list, email: VABEDFOR@rootsweb.com > To contact the list admin, email: VABEDFOR-admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VABEDFOR-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Glenna: Go here-- http://www.myvirginiagenealogy.com/va_maps/va_cf.htm This website is loaded with genealogical goodies. If you scroll down and click on a certain year, you can see how the Virginia counties evolved. Keep clicking each successive year, and they will change for you. But like I said. The lines sometimes overlapped and are a bit fuzzy, especially if your kin lived near a boundary that shifted back and forth. Watch old Brunswick, from 1720? and how it was divided many times. Lunenburg, Halifax, Bedford, Campbell, Pittslyvania, etc. Old Brunswick and Lunenburg eventually got smaller and shifted to the east, after the new counties were formed. Edwin UsTwo <race2folks@embarqmail.com> wrote: Edwin, This information was terrific! I have a question. You always listed Bedford as Bedford/Campbell. Does your book have anything on when, and from which county/counties that Campbell was made from? I have an ancestor who lived in Campbell, but was buying land in Bedford in 1803. I can't find him in the census prior to 1810 Bedford. Prior to 1810, I found him in a Tithe list in 1785 Pittsylvania County with "8 white souls". I appreciate your effort in putting that list out to everybody, and whatever you find on this question. Glenna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edwin "Tex" Irvin" To: Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 9:09 AM Subject: [VABEDFOR] old County lines I'm sure this is old news to most of you, but I will post it anyway. 4-5 Formation of Counties of VA from Charles City County, est. 1634 to Franklin County, est. 1785

Velma: If you want to chase down the famous Randolph genealogy, read this old book: http://books.google.com/books?id=x8VFAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=randolph+family+of+virginia&source=web&ots=__9hP13bdX&sig=KqhJlL7_8sTbn52rMZEk2m9gEc4 But always take these old books with a grain of salt. Most of them are usually flawed. If you "Google" the Randolph family, or the "Tuckahoe Plantation," you will find much about them, including the sordid affair of Richard Randolph with his sister in law and the death of the child. It was sensational at the time, and was in all the newspapers in America and Britain. The Randolphs intermarried into all the "first families" of Virginia and their many heirs are legion. Presidents, Generals, Supreme Court Justices. I have read elsewhere that Richard owned 50,000 acres in Bedford alone. I'm not sure if it was Sr. or Jr. or both. I have also read that Richard Jr. died broke. I doubt seriously if they ever actually lived in Bedford. Their estates were near Richmond. The Stith family is very old in Virginia, also. I have seen them way back, like in the 1660's? Edwin

Edwin, I am really enjoying the info that you are sending out. Thank you so very much for this. Richard RANDOLPH was not my ancestor, but I suspect he was a brother to Mary RANDOLPH, who married my many times great grandfather Capt. John STITH, JR. (ca 1664). Mary's father was Col. William RANDOLPH of Turkey Island, Speaker of the House of Burgesses 1698. William's father was Richard RANDOLPH. I do not have documents to prove all of this. I was surprised to hear of the connection to Washington and Robert E. Lee. I didn't know that. On my father's side, one of our EUSTACE grandfathers married a LEE. She was the d aughter of Hancock LEE. This we do have documents to prove. Thanks again, Velma **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48)

In a message dated 1/26/2008 1:30:47 PM Central Standard Time, wmhunt@frontiernet.net writes: Also: Richard Stith made bond: Appointed and commissioned that he perform the duties as Assistant Surveyor of Bedford County. Sept. 23, 1754 Bedford County Deed Book A1 (abstracts by) Ann Chilton, 1987, p. 33 Bill H. ***** Thanks, Bill. Richard STITH was a cousin to mine. Not my direct line, but even so I enjoy seeing the things about cousins. Velma **************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025 48)

Also: Richard Stith made bond: Appointed and commissioned that he perform the duties as Assistant Surveyor of Bedford County. Sept. 23, 1754 Bedford County Deed Book A1 (abstracts by) Ann Chilton, 1987, p. 33 Bill H. ----- Original Message ----- From: <Vrgfdonna@aol.com> To: <vabedfor@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [VABEDFOR] Bedford families > In a message dated 1/25/2008 5:25:45 AM Central Standard Time, > edwirvin@yahoo.com writes: > First to Velma--Your Jesse Stith rang a bell. The Stith family was very > prominent in early Lunenburg, maybe even early Brunswick. A Drury Stith > was a > surveyor and platted much of the patents in present Campbell, Charlotte > counties. I recall they were reasonably well documented. I remember > their estates > were east of the now Campbell line, near the Meherrin River, in the now > much > smaller Lunenburg county. There is a lot on them in the VaGenWeb site > for > Lunenburg. Stith is such an unusual name. I'm sure your Jesse belongs > to > this family. > > ****** > > Edwin, I want to thank you very much for this response and for all of your helpful > posts to this List. I am very glad that you are on this List with your > great > memory and your knowledge of this area. > > Yes, my STITHS are part of the family that you've noticed, and they are > pretty well documented, which has been a wonderful help to us. They > settled in > Westover Parish, Charles City Co. after coming over from England. Drury > STITH > was a cousin. > > Thanks again,

The Randolphs were probably the most famous family in Virginia. They were filthy rich and owned hundreds of thousands of acres. Jefferson and Washington and Robert E. Lee's families descend from these folks. They were great land speculators all across Virginia, from the tidewaters to the Blue Ridge. Richard Randolph, and probably his same named son or grandson, sold vast tracts of lands in the old Brunswick area. I know Christopher Irvine bought lands from them in what is called the "Royal" or "Rich" Forest, wherever that is. I'm guessing not far from New London. I think the Calloways bought lands from them also. Very early-the 1740's. Probably many other settlers bought their lands from them. The probable son or grandson, Richard Randolph, was jailed and tried for murdering his illegitamate child. Patrick Henry defended him and he was acquitted. You will see many deeds of your kin that were acquired from the Randolphs. Below are just a few of their immense holdings. Edwin Under Albemarle county 929 Richard Randolph VPB 33 p859-860 20 Aug 1760 400a ABCo. on the North side the Fluvanna River 1029 Richard Randolph VPB 33 p748 3 Mar 1760 240a ABCo. on the brs. of Moores Creek 589 Richard Randolph VPB 34 p943-945 2 Feb 1762 1388a Albemarle County 588 Richard Randolph VPB 34 p912-913 7 Aug 1761 388a Albemarle County on Green Creek 163 William Randolph of GoocVPB 16 p1-3 1 Jul 1735 2400a on the N side of the Rivanna River Under Bedford 180 Richard Randolph VPB 31:536 10 Sep 1755 14000a Lunenburg/ on the Brs. of L 163 Richard Randolph of the CVPB 23:766 30 Aug 1744 3233a Brunswick/ N side of Otter R 181 Richard Randolph VPB 31:538 10 Sep 1755 13550a Lunenburg/ on N Branch of S 182 Richard Randolph VPB 31:539 10 Sep 1755 2800a Lunenburg/ on both Sides of Under Charlotte 57 Richard Randolph, Gentle 20 Aug 1740 VPB 19:701 500a Brunswick/ both sides of Staunton River Under Prince Edward 231 Richard Randolph 20 Mar 1745 VAPB 22:607 496 acres on both sides of Little Buffalo River 61 Richard Randolph 5 Jun 1736 VAPB 17:063 4747 acres on both sides of Bush River 424 Richard Randolph 9 Feb 1737 VAPB 17:475 3343 acres on both side of Bush River and Mountain Cree 280 Richard Randolph 15 Mar 1735 VAPB 17:009 1782 acres in Brunswick & Prince George on both sides o 62 Richard Randolph 19 Feb 1747 VAPB 17:473 6430 acres in Amelia & Goochland Co; both sides of Appo 239 Richard Randolph 9 Feb 1737 VAPB 17:472 3148 acres on both sides of Falling Creek

Concerning the ever changing county lines of old Brunswick/Lunenburg/Bedford. Go here-- http://www.directlinesoftware.com/Pool/appomatt.txt As if it is not confusing enough. These deeds are held under Appomattox county. But note the counties they were originally filed under. And note the landmarks. Some of them are places we would not consider Bedford or Campbell. etc. A friend of mine tipped me off to the "Virginia Atlas & Gazetteer" by Delorme. You can buy these at Barnes & Noble or Borders for 20 bucks. It shows most of the little creeks and mountains you see all the time in the old land patents. It was the best $20 I ever spent. You can buy the Gazetteer for most states. As you can see from the deeds, to us, there appears to be no rhyme or reason for what patents landed in what county. Who knows? Indians, wars, fires, floods? Records were shuffled around seemingly everywhere. Two centuries is a long time. The old Brunswick and Lunenburg lines seemed to fluctuate back and forth as the other counties evolved. So did Goochland, Albemarle, Amelie, and Amherst. And many others. So, don't confine your search to what you think is the correct county. Your ancestor's patent may be where you least expect it. One of my ancestors was John Irvine. He was granted a huge tract of land at Hat Creek, just north of Brookneal. I have searched a dozen counties for his grant to no avail. He was one of the founders of the Hat Creek Presbyterian Church in 1742, and donated the land for the original meeting house. The grant was supposedly "many thousands of acres from the Crown." (Gooch?) But I have never found it. Hat Creek John raised my orphan Christopher Irvine. I cannot prove their exact relationship. Probably uncle or great uncle. My other Irvines owned lands further west of John. Some, very early, near the junction of the Otter River and Flat Creek. Other lands across the Bedford line near Leesville. Even others north of Bedford City and west of Lynchburg, at Auslins (Oslin's?) creek and Hurricane mountain. There is even a Samuel Irvine near Candler Mountain around 1800. I have very little proof tying all these folks together. The Scotch-Irish were all named Christopher and David, and William and Robert. And they all had many sons and brothers and nephews named the same. It is very easy to make assumptions that are totally in error. So the hunt continues. Edwin