Bette, you must be receiving some of my messages. Sadly, I think yours is the only message I've gotten from this list today. Tom Royalty to Rogues http://www.l-dunaway.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bette Lasley" <belasley@fmtc.com> To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 12:05 PM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] triplett copies >I am receiving triplet copies of everything from this list. Thanks Bette > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005 > > > ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== > USGenWeb Archives Census Project > http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/census/ > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

I am receiving triplet copies of everything from this list. Thanks Bette -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005

This discussion brings to mind several of my Winston ancestors, William 'Essex' Winston, Jr.(1703-1781), William James Winston (ca. 1686 - 1727), and William 'Langaloo' Winston (1668-1726), as well as Rebecca Geddes Bobby Winston (1701-1779). Apparently "Essex" was not part of William Winston's actual birth name, but was an appellation applied to him to distinguish him from other William Winstons living around the same time and area. One sees this appellation in brackets, ie: (Essex) following his name in other documents such as his indenture to Cornelius Dabney. I have speculated that these particular 'second names' may have been chosen based on where these individuals lived or administered property. This line has been very confusing for me because of all the 'Williams', and I am not very certain of the the ascendant order beyond my 4th great Grandfather, Geddes Winston (1731-1794) who was married to Mary Jordan. I believe that William 'Essex' Winston was Geddes' father whose wife was Rebecca Geddes Bobby , and this same William 'Essex' was also the son of William James Winston . Beyond that the ascendancy grows murky for me, though I have speculated that William 'Langaloo' MIGHT be the father of William James. I do not know why William 'Langaloo' Winston acquired this distinction, but presumably it is for the same reason - as an identifier - as the 'Langaloo' portion usually has been seen either in quotes or in parentheses. Rebecca Geddes Bobby Winston's second names seem more clear cut, as those were her family names. Note that all the life dates are in the 1600's and 1700's. Charlotte Geier > Subject: > Re: [VAROOTS] Re: middle names > From: > "Paul Drake" <pauldrake@charter.net> > Date: > Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:39:32 -0500 > To: > VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com > > To: > VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com > > >Thanks, Fred. What you have said is surely true. To set the record straight since M. N. seems to be the subject of some measure of criticism for her list, she is a fine and thorough researcher (and a blind copy of this is going to her) suggested those names as evidentiary of the use of middle names, she was not offering that list as proof positive of anything about any line. Rather, she was suggesting that those multiples that appeared in her own records might be illustrative of the practice. > >I think the matter may be summed as you have done, and also by saying simply that reliable sources should be sought out for any and all names, be those 2, 3 or 10 in number. So, the need for accuracy in all things genealogical should include searches concerning all such multiple names, since one may find revealed nicknames, baptismal names, names used or assigned informally to differentiate one person from another, maiden names carried forward by choice to identify or to please an ancestor, middle names given boys to honor their predecessors, or names simply assumed by the "owner" - the person wearing those symbols. > >Finally, there are myriad examples, though a small percentage still, that serve to illustrate that the Europeans and Scandinavians often assigned mid names before it was considered fashionable by those who came here. Paul > > >

Hi Sterling, Thank you for the information and help. I will scan these documents tomorrow sometime and upload them. I am not sure how great they will scan but I will try and also I can use the magnifying glass option once I get it on the computer. I could see something to do with issue of clothing and hospital notes, there was a check where it said Prisoner of War also. Said Ward Master, but not sure if my ancestor was a ward master or what. I could read "detached from duty" a few times, maybe due to illness or being a prisoner of war not sure. christy ----- Original Message ----- From: "W. Sterling Schermerhorn" <psidiver@earthlink.net> To: "cristy" <poppy0206@cox.net> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Record help please, Confederate War > Cristy, The NARA compiled service record is the actual photocopied records > of confederate soldiers that were considered as a part of "Rebel Archives" > by the War Department, that were collected as part of Record Group 109 and > includes unit rosters, muster rolls, rosters, payrolls, special orders > including payments to soldiers, issue of clothing, replacement of horses > for cavalry accidents, etc. They are copied from the originals in the > national archives. It does not include everything ever recorded as some > of the regimental records did not survive intact......be grateful for what > is there. There is not a guarantee that original enlistment papers would > be included. I would be happy to help assist in transcription off list,, > my eyes not good either but I'm trained to read old handwriting rather > well esp. when Confederates are involved. As to the pensions I will leave > that to those better educated than I. Sterling S. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "cristy" <poppy0206@cox.net> > To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 8:22 PM > Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Record help please, Confederate War > > >> Hi, >> >> Can anyone tell me if the "Service Record" is the same thing as the >> actual enlistment papers for the Civil War? I have a copy of my great, >> great grandfather's Service Papers from his enlistment in the 30th >> Regiment , Company H in North Carolina Infantry -State Troops, >> Jonesboro-NC. >> >> Also on the Pension applications that I just received today his wife >> wrote he enlisted in Chatham, NC. But on the Service Records it says >> Jonesboro, NC. I guess I need to see where they are in relation to each >> other, maybe they are really one in the same. >> >> I am having a hard time reading the Service Record. If I copy it and >> upload it on here is anyone interested in helping me interpret it? I can >> get some of it, unfortunately, my eyes are not the best. I can read the >> pension application okay. I am trying to see if there is any new info on >> the pension papers. >> >> Thanks, >> christy >> >> >> ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== >> USGenWeb Archives Digital Maps Project >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/maps/ >> >> ============================== >> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >> > >

I've heard Helen Leary speak many times, and I've heard a similar lecture. I think her meaning was misunderstood by someone somewhere along the way. She was simply saying that the presence of a middle name makes it more likely that a NC resident has Virginia roots in his generation or his immediate ancestors. If the person has a middle name in early NC records, she was suggesting that the researcher seriously consider a Virginia origin. As for the dower question, NC law did indeed recognize dower rights for a period of time. It did not always coincide with dower rights in Virginia, and so Helen was saying that, if someone's wife releases a dower right in a NC deed, after NC stopped recognizing this right, it's possible the couple had recently moved to NC from Virginia. To quote the book she edited on NC genealogy, "North Carolina Research: Genealogy and Local History," pp. 578-79: "Until 1784, dower in North Carolina was dower by common law, which was the ordinary kind of dower in England and America.... Originally, the widow was required to sue her husband's heir(s) for allotment and possession of her dower tract, but this practice gradually went out of use and in 1784 NC law recognized the prevailing practice and provided for allotted upon her simple petition to the county court. The allotment procedure required that the court appointed a commission of neighbors unrelated to the widow or her husband to view the land in question and report their determination of the third that included the manor house and plantation - whereupon the court awarded her that portion, and her life estate title to that portion came into effect; no deed was required. In 1784, North Carolina abolished dower by common law. From that date until 1868 a widow's dower right in this state extended only to those lands of which her husband was still 'seized and possessed' at the time of his death. She had no conveyable interest in her husband's lands during his lifetime as she had had under the common-law form, and her relinquishment of dower right was no longer required for him to convey clear title to any lands he sold during the marriage. When the recordation of a deed made during this time period is accompanied bya notation that the wife had been 'examined privily' to determine her willingness to part with the land, it may indicate that a) the land came to her husband through her (i.e, she owned it prior to her marriage or inherited it during coverture) and she was releasing inheritance or other ownership rights; b) the grantor, grantee, or both were immigrants from a place where dower was by common law and relinquishment was still thought necessary or prudent; or c) she was the seller's mother, not wife. In 1868, dower by common law was restored in this state and was not abolished again until 1960." Helen Leary is an expert on NC genealogy, and many times I have driven many hours to hear her speak on the subject. Katherine Dick Benbow

My two cents worth.....my German ancestor, born about 1770 had the name Aug. Ferdinand Reinman. He never used the (Aug) here in this Country. Ella ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Drake" <pauldrake@charter.net> To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 7:39 PM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Re: [VAROOTS] Re: middle names > Thanks, Fred. What you have said is surely true. To set the > record straight since M. N. seems to be the subject of some > measure of criticism for her list, she is a fine and thorough > researcher (and a blind copy of this is going to her) suggested > those names as evidentiary of the use of middle names, she was > not offering that list as proof positive of anything about any > line. Rather, she was suggesting that those multiples that > appeared in her own records might be illustrative of the > practice. > > I think the matter may be summed as you have done, and also by > saying simply that reliable sources should be sought out for > any and all names, be those 2, 3 or 10 in number. So, the need > for accuracy in all things genealogical should include searches > concerning all such multiple names, since one may find revealed > nicknames, baptismal names, names used or assigned informally > to differentiate one person from another, maiden names carried > forward by choice to identify or to please an ancestor, middle > names given boys to honor their predecessors, or names simply > assumed by the "owner" - the person wearing those symbols. > > Finally, there are myriad examples, though a small percentage > still, that serve to illustrate that the Europeans and > Scandinavians often assigned mid names before it was considered > fashionable by those who came here. Paul > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fredric Z. Saunders > To: VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:14 PM > Subject: RE: [VAROOTS] Re: middle names > > > Hi Paul, > > I would agree with your first posting, that is was usually the > "upper class" > that might have used a middle name in Colonial America. To > that I would add > that it was usually about the early 1700s before I have seen > any of these, > and those are few and far between. For those of the early > 1700s I have seen, > the middle name was often a family name, being either the > mother's, > grandmother's or earlier generation maiden name. > > German lines excepted, I would say it was *generally* mid > 1700s before there > was an *occasional* usage of a middle name where it was not a > family > surname. I would also caution anyone finding an alleged middle > name for an > ancestor before 1800, to verify that usage through original > records. > > I can cite dozens of examples of persons from my own ancestry, > where > Internet sources or FamilySearch/Ancestral File list a middle > name for a > person, that there are no such records that anyone can cite > showing that > "middle" name. If asked to a cite an original record showing > the person had > a middle name, the answer is invariably that the person can't. > They just > copied what someone else said. > > As for how those mistaken listings of a middle name started, I > can identify > how several did. (1) To go with your second posting, which > contained > several listings of BEALL and related families, my ancestor > Ninian HAMILTON > was born about 1715. He had a son Ninian Beall HAMILTON who > was born in > 1739. Some people have assumed since the son had the middle > name Beall, the > father did too, but there are no records showing that. I know > of several > instances as this, of confusing names of a later generation > that did have a > middle name, with an earlier one that didn't. > > (2) On sort of a related note, I have seen numerous instances > of people > confusing a listing of a maiden name with that of a middle > name. As an > example, I have an ancestor Sarah BURGESS born ca. 1691, who > was the > daughter Edward BURGESS and Sarah CHEW. When people write > about the mother, > some will write her name as "Sarah Chew Burgess", rather than > as Sarah > (Chew) Burgess, or Sarah (CHEW) BURGESS. For both the latter, > it is > identifiable that CHEW is a maiden name, and not a middle > name. All it takes > is one person to think that "Sarah Chew Burgess" is the > daughter (rather > than mother) and assign her the middle "Chew". A hundred > other people come > along and copy the information of the first, and suddenly > everywhere you > look, the daughter born ca. 1691 now has a middle name Chew. > Person number > 101 will come along and think "100 people list it, so it must > be correct", > but not one of the 101 can cite a record showing she had a > middle name. I > have seen this happen many times in early 1700s MD records. > > (3) Some people have confused a person signing with a mark as > being a middle > initial, and assumed therefore the person had a middle name. > An original > record might show that a person signed their will or other > document as "John > D Doe" with the word "his" above the "D" and the word "mark" > below the "D". > In their abstract/summary of the document they neglect to list > the words > "his mark" and list it as signed "John D DOE." The same 100 > persons as > listed in number 2 come along and copy each other, and now > list John DOE as > John D. DOE. Again, I have seen this happen a number of > times. > > I would also ask that the person "M. N." whose e-mail you > forwarded to the > list to please contact me. James BEALL and Anne Marie CALVERT > are often > alleged as the parents of my ancestor Ninian BEALL. Although I > have been > asking for 20+ years, I have yet to see one person who can > cite ANY original > record of this James BEALL to show he even existed, much less > that he had a > son named Ninian. While James has been alleged as the father > of Ninian since > the early 1900s, it is only in about the past ten years that > mentions of a > wife "Anne Marie CALVERT" have appeared. I believe its first > appearance was > on the Ancestral File, with at the same time a listing giving > James (if he > exists) a middle initial B. Any actual record showing she > actually existed > are as elusive as those of James BEALL. > > So, I will once again ask, hoping that someone can provide > evidence that > James BEALL even existed, and if he did, that there is > evidence that Ninian > BEALL of MD is his son. > http://home.netcom.com/~fzsaund/beall.html > > Rick Saunders > http://genealogypro.com/fsaunders.html > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: > 7/16/2005 > > > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records > added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn > more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: > 7/16/2005 > > > > ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== > VAGenWeb > http://www.rootsweb.com/~vagenweb > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your > ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > >

Hi, Can anyone tell me if the "Service Record" is the same thing as the actual enlistment papers for the Civil War? I have a copy of my great, great grandfather's Service Papers from his enlistment in the 30th Regiment , Company H in North Carolina Infantry -State Troops, Jonesboro-NC. Also on the Pension applications that I just received today his wife wrote he enlisted in Chatham, NC. But on the Service Records it says Jonesboro, NC. I guess I need to see where they are in relation to each other, maybe they are really one in the same. I am having a hard time reading the Service Record. If I copy it and upload it on here is anyone interested in helping me interpret it? I can get some of it, unfortunately, my eyes are not the best. I can read the pension application okay. I am trying to see if there is any new info on the pension papers. Thanks, christy

Thanks, Fred. What you have said is surely true. To set the record straight since M. N. seems to be the subject of some measure of criticism for her list, she is a fine and thorough researcher (and a blind copy of this is going to her) suggested those names as evidentiary of the use of middle names, she was not offering that list as proof positive of anything about any line. Rather, she was suggesting that those multiples that appeared in her own records might be illustrative of the practice. I think the matter may be summed as you have done, and also by saying simply that reliable sources should be sought out for any and all names, be those 2, 3 or 10 in number. So, the need for accuracy in all things genealogical should include searches concerning all such multiple names, since one may find revealed nicknames, baptismal names, names used or assigned informally to differentiate one person from another, maiden names carried forward by choice to identify or to please an ancestor, middle names given boys to honor their predecessors, or names simply assumed by the "owner" - the person wearing those symbols. Finally, there are myriad examples, though a small percentage still, that serve to illustrate that the Europeans and Scandinavians often assigned mid names before it was considered fashionable by those who came here. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Fredric Z. Saunders To: VAROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:14 PM Subject: RE: [VAROOTS] Re: middle names Hi Paul, I would agree with your first posting, that is was usually the "upper class" that might have used a middle name in Colonial America. To that I would add that it was usually about the early 1700s before I have seen any of these, and those are few and far between. For those of the early 1700s I have seen, the middle name was often a family name, being either the mother's, grandmother's or earlier generation maiden name. German lines excepted, I would say it was *generally* mid 1700s before there was an *occasional* usage of a middle name where it was not a family surname. I would also caution anyone finding an alleged middle name for an ancestor before 1800, to verify that usage through original records. I can cite dozens of examples of persons from my own ancestry, where Internet sources or FamilySearch/Ancestral File list a middle name for a person, that there are no such records that anyone can cite showing that "middle" name. If asked to a cite an original record showing the person had a middle name, the answer is invariably that the person can't. They just copied what someone else said. As for how those mistaken listings of a middle name started, I can identify how several did. (1) To go with your second posting, which contained several listings of BEALL and related families, my ancestor Ninian HAMILTON was born about 1715. He had a son Ninian Beall HAMILTON who was born in 1739. Some people have assumed since the son had the middle name Beall, the father did too, but there are no records showing that. I know of several instances as this, of confusing names of a later generation that did have a middle name, with an earlier one that didn't. (2) On sort of a related note, I have seen numerous instances of people confusing a listing of a maiden name with that of a middle name. As an example, I have an ancestor Sarah BURGESS born ca. 1691, who was the daughter Edward BURGESS and Sarah CHEW. When people write about the mother, some will write her name as "Sarah Chew Burgess", rather than as Sarah (Chew) Burgess, or Sarah (CHEW) BURGESS. For both the latter, it is identifiable that CHEW is a maiden name, and not a middle name. All it takes is one person to think that "Sarah Chew Burgess" is the daughter (rather than mother) and assign her the middle "Chew". A hundred other people come along and copy the information of the first, and suddenly everywhere you look, the daughter born ca. 1691 now has a middle name Chew. Person number 101 will come along and think "100 people list it, so it must be correct", but not one of the 101 can cite a record showing she had a middle name. I have seen this happen many times in early 1700s MD records. (3) Some people have confused a person signing with a mark as being a middle initial, and assumed therefore the person had a middle name. An original record might show that a person signed their will or other document as "John D Doe" with the word "his" above the "D" and the word "mark" below the "D". In their abstract/summary of the document they neglect to list the words "his mark" and list it as signed "John D DOE." The same 100 persons as listed in number 2 come along and copy each other, and now list John DOE as John D. DOE. Again, I have seen this happen a number of times. I would also ask that the person "M. N." whose e-mail you forwarded to the list to please contact me. James BEALL and Anne Marie CALVERT are often alleged as the parents of my ancestor Ninian BEALL. Although I have been asking for 20+ years, I have yet to see one person who can cite ANY original record of this James BEALL to show he even existed, much less that he had a son named Ninian. While James has been alleged as the father of Ninian since the early 1900s, it is only in about the past ten years that mentions of a wife "Anne Marie CALVERT" have appeared. I believe its first appearance was on the Ancestral File, with at the same time a listing giving James (if he exists) a middle initial B. Any actual record showing she actually existed are as elusive as those of James BEALL. So, I will once again ask, hoping that someone can provide evidence that James BEALL even existed, and if he did, that there is evidence that Ninian BEALL of MD is his son. http://home.netcom.com/~fzsaund/beall.html Rick Saunders http://genealogypro.com/fsaunders.html -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 7/16/2005 ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 7/16/2005

Paul and All: Just clarify how to subscribe to the Southside list: Click on this address: VA-Southside-L-Request@Rootsweb.com Type Subscribe in Subject and Body of the new message. To post to this List, send message to: VA-Southside-L@Rootsweb.com List Administrator, G. Lee Hearl Authentic Appalachian Storyteller Abingdon, Va.

Don't understand what Ms. Leary was indicating- no middle name= VA???? Having spent a considerable amount of time in NC records, I have found no more use of a middle name in the earliest NC records, than in VA, except, as Paul mentioned, the Germans in Western NC. E. Wallace wrote: In a lecture at a (1999, I believe) NGS conference, held in Richmond, VA, I heard Helen F.M.Leary, a noted genealogist of North Carolina, give a talk on how one could determine whether one's North Carolinian had Virginia roots. One of the clues was if the person had a middle name!!!!

Grace, Your post below is very revealing and makes the point to why I asked the list yesterday of who had found 2 forenames in records before 1800. Perhaps, I should have stated "in copies of original records" since names, dates, events as gathered from someone else's notes and history(especially those found in internet databases) can resemble a fairy tale from Grimm. Grace wrote: These Whites, Terrells & Adams are mine. I have found no documented evidence that Judith Adams had a middle name of Lewis. Her mother was Mourning (it is thought to be Lewis) and some researchers have posted this second name for Judith, to "prove" it was. This has caused a lot of errors in this research.

Hi, Ed. Subscribe here, then post here also. VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Glojet@aol.com To: Pauldrake@charter.net Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 3:55 PM Subject: Instructions Paul; I need instructions on how to post to VA-SOUTHSIDE-L. There were many things my partner did not give me instructions on. Thanks; Edward T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 7/16/2005

Grace is correct: I have found no documented evidence >that Judith Adams had a middle name of Lewis. Her mother was Mourning (it is >thought to be Lewis) and some researchers have posted this second name for >Judith, to "prove" it was. The Bible record -- albeit written by her husband Micajah Clark and not her father, Robert -- shows ONLY "Judith Adams". I think until one actually sees the full name written by the parents or the person, one needs to take some of these Colonial period "given / middle / surnames" with a large grain of salt. Also one shouldn't assume what a middle initial stands for. I have one gr-grandparent where the author of a genealogy assumed the initial "P" stood for Peter when in fact it was the surname of his maternal grandfather -- Peyton. Linda Linda Sparks Starr lsstarr@pilgrimage.us http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~lksstarr

I have seldom given much thought to middle names of colonial American ancestors except When someone, male or female, shows up on a *vast database* such as IGI, Ancestral File and all the knock-offs, with a middle name and an early date of birth (usually wrong), then my *suspect* antenna go up. (I generally avoid these databases, as I have found them so flawed--mainly in dates and places. The English IGI, when names and dates and places are extracted from parish records are generally acceptable, but beware of other such databases.) As the nation matured and became more populated, however, and many persons shared the same name, middle names did seem to pop up. In my own lineage, I am descended from one Samuel Farrar Williams, who, in his rejected Revolutionary War pension claim, filed in Kentucky, states he was born in 1759 in Granville Co., NC. (This was one of the truthful statements in his application.) He seems to be my earliest ancestor with a middle name, and, fruitlessly, I have searched for years to try to determine whether the parental Williams family was linked to a Farrar family, who were prominent in the early history of counties along the James River. The closest solution I have come to is a 1742 tithable list for Goochland Co., VA in which S.F.W's grandfather, John Williams [just plain John Williams, which confuses many researchers] has listed as one of his tithables a William Farrar. (This list appears in an old issue of The Virginia Genealogist.) In a lecture at a (1999, I believe) NGS conference, held in Richmond, VA, I heard Helen F.M.Leary, a noted genealogist of North Carolina, give a talk on how one could determine whether one's North Carolinian had Virginia roots. One of the clues was if the person had a middle name!!!! Another pointer of Virginia origins was if the wife, in a deed executed by her spouse, relinquished her dower rights. Seemingly, this was a requirement in Virginia but not in North Carolina. Of course, one must ALWAYS remember that for every rule, there is always an exception, and those of us with North Carolina and Virginia roots, know there are plenty of exceptions!!! I believe I had read earlier than middle names had been forbidden in England, at least for the lower classes. Discussion of naming patterns is of interest, probably because for every *rule*, as stated, there is an exception. E.W.Wallace

Of course, many - if not most - cites that arise from research are subject to many errors, and M.N. was simply trying to illustrate what we all were chatting about. I suppose that so long as we have had assigned names, whether or not some certain name used or written was a baptismal name, a married name, a name used to differentiate one person from another, or names simply assumed and taken up by the subject person. Not to be overlooked are those who abandoned a middle name, and are forever more known by but 2 names. Example? Me. I have a middle name but have not told anyone what it is since I had the opportunity chance to abandon it of record when I joined the Navy 55 years ago. I have known of several such abandonments in my research. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Hdanw@aol.com To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 1:51 PM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Middle Names for Early Ancestors I have seldom given much thought to middle names of colonial American ancestors except When someone, male or female, shows up on a *vast database* such as IGI, Ancestral File and all the knock-offs, with a middle name and an early date of birth (usually wrong), then my *suspect* antenna go up. (I generally avoid these databases, as I have found them so flawed--mainly in dates and places. The English IGI, when names and dates and places are extracted from parish records are generally acceptable, but beware of other such databases.) As the nation matured and became more populated, however, and many persons shared the same name, middle names did seem to pop up. In my own lineage, I am descended from one Samuel Farrar Williams, who, in his rejected Revolutionary War pension claim, filed in Kentucky, states he was born in 1759 in Granville Co., NC. (This was one of the truthful statements in his application.) He seems to be my earliest ancestor with a middle name, and, fruitlessly, I have searched for years to try to determine whether the parental Williams family was linked to a Farrar family, who were prominent in the early history of counties along the James River. The closest solution I have come to is a 1742 tithable list for Goochland Co., VA in which S.F.W's grandfather, John Williams [just plain John Williams, which confuses many researchers] has listed as one of his tithables a William Farrar. (This list appears in an old issue of The Virginia Genealogist.) In a lecture at a (1999, I believe) NGS conference, held in Richmond, VA, I heard Helen F.M.Leary, a noted genealogist of North Carolina, give a talk on how one could determine whether one's North Carolinian had Virginia roots. One of the clues was if the person had a middle name!!!! Another pointer of Virginia origins was if the wife, in a deed executed by her spouse, relinquished her dower rights. Seemingly, this was a requirement in Virginia but not in North Carolina. Of course, one must ALWAYS remember that for every rule, there is always an exception, and those of us with North Carolina and Virginia roots, know there are plenty of exceptions!!! I believe I had read earlier than middle names had been forbidden in England, at least for the lower classes. Discussion of naming patterns is of interest, probably because for every *rule*, as stated, there is an exception. E.W.Wallace ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== Problems Subscribing or Unsubscribing ? Contact: G. Lee Hearl List Adm. at: glh@naxs.com Hosted by Rootsweb http://www.rootsweb.com ============================== New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more: http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&targetid=5429 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 7/16/2005

Paul, These Whites, Terrells & Adams are mine. I have found no documented evidence that Judith Adams had a middle name of Lewis. Her mother was Mourning (it is thought to be Lewis) and some researchers have posted this second name for Judith, to "prove" it was. This has caused a lot of errors in this research. John Martin White was the only child in that family to have a second name. There was a son named John White, born before him, who died young. Martin was his Mother's surname. All his sisters had nick names or pet names and were listed that way by his father Jeremiah White in his Commonplace Book, which he used as a Bible. Hope this helps, <smile> Grace S. Green

Thanks so much, Grace; as I said, the names were offered by M. N., who likely has read your note. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: GLSGAB@aol.com To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Re: middle names Paul, These Whites, Terrells & Adams are mine. I have found no documented evidence that Judith Adams had a middle name of Lewis. Her mother was Mourning (it is thought to be Lewis) and some researchers have posted this second name for Judith, to "prove" it was. This has caused a lot of errors in this research. John Martin White was the only child in that family to have a second name. There was a son named John White, born before him, who died young. Martin was his Mother's surname. All his sisters had nick names or pet names and were listed that way by his father Jeremiah White in his Commonplace Book, which he used as a Bible. Hope this helps, <smile> Grace S. Green ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== Rootsweb Acceptable Use Policy forbids posting copyrighted material which you do not own to Rootsweb Lists. ============================== Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records. New content added every business day. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 7/16/2005

While I haven't tried this, I understand others have simply contacted the paper in which the obituary was published and easily received permission to reprint the obituary in full if proper acknowledgment is included -- if there still is a copyright which wasn't the case with the original query if I remember correctly from the very early 1900s. Generally speaking, most small local papers don't usually simply fold up, but are bought out by another publisher who then holds the copyright. Usually, there are subscribers to the appropriate local county rootsweb lists who are familiar with these matters, or know someone who can help. Good Luck. Janet Hunter

Thanks to M. N. here are some specific examples of middle names with early dates that appear in American records. I note that some were likely of Eastern European speaking families, those names having been corrupted into English. ----- Original Message ----- From: .... To: Paul Drake Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 11:44 AM Subject: middle names Margaret Beall Jackson, 1710, MD Anna Maria Hite, 1738,VA Anne Marie Calvert, 1603, Eng James B. Beall, 1603, Scotland Robert John Ingleton, 1475Eng John T. Jones, 1800+ John Turner Kendrick, 1695, Eng John T. Kendrick, 1740 Maria Magdalena Lerchenzeiler, 1685, Palatinate Mary Mildred Long, 1735 VA Elizabeth Jackson Magruder, 1730 MD John Lamar Magruder, 1708, MD Ninian Beall Magruder, 1750, MD William Mills Magruder, 1715, MD Elizabeth Magruder Beall, c 1700, MD Mary Ann McCarty, 1706, VA Lyal Jane McKay, 1635, VA Eochaidh Muich Meadhoin, c 325, IR William Samuel Melton III, c 1709, VA (probably earlier Jr. and Sr.) William Mockabee Offutt, c 1753, MD James Haydon Oldham, 1746, VA Mary Ann Oldham, c 1724, VA Peter Thomas Oliver, 1700, VA Sarah Elizabeth Oxford, 1688, VA Micajah Chiles Terrell, 1749, VA Anne Elizabeth Terrill, 1728, VA Elizabeth Pierpont Warfield, c1637, MD Elizabeth Maria Weatherford, c 1740, VA Richard R. Weatherford, c. 1728, VA John Martin White, c 1743, VA Mary Martin White, c. 1734, VA Ada Magnolia Winfrey, 1742, VA Francis Torrance Wisdom, c. 1716, VA Elizabeth Williams Woodson, 1670, VA Mary Jane Woodson, 1678, VA Mary Jane Tucker Woodson, 1686, VA Betty Woodbridge Yerby, 1740, VA Judith Lewis Adams, 1716, VA Mary Jane Allen, 1615, VA Sarah Odle Austin, 1792, MD Aline Aliva Basset, c 1200, Eng Elizabeth Frances Battle, 1744, NC James William Beall/Bell, 1651, Scot Ninian Magruder Beall, 1731, MD Susanna Marie Brasseur, 1655, VA Margaret Newman Breckenbaugh, 1667, VA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.0/50 - Release Date: 7/16/2005

Roger, if there are no copyright problems (and it's a million to one there aren't in this case) it strikes me that you have an "all or none" proposition. I'm thinking the "key" for almost every reader will be the individual's name. If he or she is in my line or I'm interested in the individual I definitely will want every last whit and dot available. If I have no interest (either historical or genealogical) in "that name" I'm likely to see the name and move quickly on, no harm, no foul. Looks to me that the percentages say provide it ALL unless you have some kind of space constraint. John M. Poythress