And yes, I realize that primogeniture laws only covered the disposition of land in intestate cases. I was using the before/after division only as a time marker, not to indicate the law affected property other than land. Sorry for the more than just semantic error as I realize I gave a very different impression. Janet

I forgot to put in an additional question under primogeniture. I suggested that a widow had no dower right to land at all in the following paragraph: "In both cases if she wanted a place to live she was at the mercy of friends and relatives, unless she had other assets (or funds from sale of slaves, etc.) that allowed her to support herself, pay rent as a tenant, etc." But I should have added an "OR" at the end -- Or, did she have a 1/3 dower right to 1/3 of her husband's landholdings. that allowed her to live on that land, but only during her natural life, at which time it reverted to the eldest male heir, unless the disposition of the land in question was otherwise directed in a will. Thanks in advance. Janet

Hello Everyone, On another list we are wrestling with the question of a widow's rights to her husband's property -- land and slaves/moveable property -- in testate (a will was written and proven) and intestate estates. And how they differed before and after the abolishment of primogeniture soon after the Revolution (at varying times in different states). Am I correct in the following?: Under Primogeniture: If there was a will, a widow could contest it in court if she was not bequeathed the equivalent of her dower 1/3 of the value of slaves and other moveable personal property (after the payment of debts). However, she would have had no legal rights to contest her husband's division of land, as dower rights then did not extent to land. If there was no will, a widow had a legal right to her dower 1/3 of the value of slaves and other moveable personal property, but all of the land went to the eldest male heir. In both cases if she wanted a place to live she was at the mercy of friends and relatives, unless she had other assets (or funds from sale of slaves, etc.) that allowed her to support herself, pay rent as a tenant, etc. Post-primogeniture: If there is a will, a widow could and can contest it if she does not receive at least the equivalent of 1/3 of the value of the estate. I believe that now there is no legal distinction between land and other assets in determining her 1/3, but at least in the ante-bellum south, initially the focus was on 1/3 of the land and separately 1/3 of the slaves, the rest. Did widows, believing themselves to have got the short end of the stick in their husband's wills, then perhaps not ask the court to lay off 1/3 of the land for her dower if she chose (or was told by a judge) to take her 1/3 of the entire estate out of slave-holdings? Were there two separate calculations, land and personal property? If there was no will, the widow was entitled to 1/3 of the value of the estate. But, my question is the same as that when there is a will. Was her dower right based on 1/3 of the value of the entire estate, or separately 1/3 of the land and 1/3 of personal property? Thanks in advance. Best Regards, Janet (Baugh) Hunter

Janet, I'm interested in the answer to your questions as well. My question: About what year did the abolishment of primogeniture happen? Thanks, Marla

If anyone has this book, I would be very grateful to have help. I am looking for any PHILLIPS entries, anywhere in the state, as I know my family owned land in Prince George in 1819 or 1820. With many, many thanks, Cordially, Mary Jane Phillips-Matz

HI Patty, Where were your "Stone" from before that. I am researching that surname and there are some Johnsons in that file too I believe. thanks, christy ----- Original Message ----- From: "patty" <pament@kci.net> To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2005 12:20 AM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Cow People > Hello, again, cow people. In my delight at relating my Missouri "cow" > story, I neglected to mention that I have lurked on this list for some > time because the lady who married Irving Hart Gessley of Independence, > Missouri was Goldie Johnson (my mother), d/o Hamon Thomas Johnson and > Lourie Dean Stone, who were born, raised, and married in Henry, Franklin > County, VA. Many of the residents of the area are related to me, although > I didn't know they existed until several years ago, when I was able to > visit and meet them in person. One of my cousins, from Bassett, > graciously and generously handed to me the results of her 30+ years of > Johnson, Stone, Spencer, Shelton, Watson, Pyrtle, and other research. She > supplied the missing link that connected us both to James Johnson who > served in the Revolutionary War as a member of George Washington's Life > Guard. I owe her a huge debt that I can only repay by passing on the > information that I have found, which I will. So, thank you for ! > the info you post on this list, and for your willingness to share with a > cousin in Colorado. Best regards, Patty > > > ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== > VAGenWeb http://www.rootsweb.com/~vagenweb > Please contact List Administrator if you experience problems > getting unsubscribed from this list. glh@naxs.com > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Hello, again, cow people. In my delight at relating my Missouri "cow" story, I neglected to mention that I have lurked on this list for some time because the lady who married Irving Hart Gessley of Independence, Missouri was Goldie Johnson (my mother), d/o Hamon Thomas Johnson and Lourie Dean Stone, who were born, raised, and married in Henry, Franklin County, VA. Many of the residents of the area are related to me, although I didn't know they existed until several years ago, when I was able to visit and meet them in person. One of my cousins, from Bassett, graciously and generously handed to me the results of her 30+ years of Johnson, Stone, Spencer, Shelton, Watson, Pyrtle, and other research. She supplied the missing link that connected us both to James Johnson who served in the Revolutionary War as a member of George Washington's Life Guard. I owe her a huge debt that I can only repay by passing on the information that I have found, which I will. So, thank you for ! the info you post on this list, and for your willingness to share with a cousin in Colorado. Best regards, Patty

Are the messages from this mailing list archived ? if so please send me an address to view them. thanks raymond

Raymond, Yes, the messages are archived. You can review them in two ways: Threaded list search -- Browse the archives month by month -- Simply enter Va-Southside at the following link, and when you get to the list archives pick your month(s): http://archiver.rootsweb.com Interactive Search -- Search the archives for names/keywords -- Enter Va-Southside at the following link, and when you get to the list page, enter search terms: http://searches2.rootsweb.com These are two easy URLs to memorize and work for all lists. Good Luck! Janet Hunter

Hello, all you cow people. I just couldn't resist telling you that in 1902, my great grandfather James Hart Hunter moved his family "out of the woods" of Mt. Washington ( now Independence, Jackson County, Missouri) and sold a cow to buy a lot on Sterling Avenue. They moved into the new house in 1906. Just down the street lived the Daniel Irving Gessley family whose son Hilton Harry Gessley married Estelle Margaret Hunter, d/o daughter of James Hart Hunter. They produced my father Irving Hart Gessley. My husband and I operate a cattle ranch. Guess I wouldn't be here if it weren't for that first cow. <g> Patty in Colorado PS. The Hunter and Gessley families also lived down the street from the Truman family. They had a son named Harry S. ----- Original Message ----- From: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:00 AM Subject: VA-SOUTHSIDE-D Digest V05 #148

My grandparents were married in 1902 middle TN. Their marriage was written in their family bible giving place of marriage as bride's home and the preacher's name. There was no license to the state. Many people considered the state's involvement in marriage as unethical. They were also charging a fee to get married. Divorces were also allowed by the state, even though there was no "legal" marriage. Bob Jordan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Drake" <pauldrake@charter.net> To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] divorce in antebellum America > First, April, I know nothing of "odds" that you seek, and then too your question is not a simple one. I think it can be said that, whether White or Black or in-between, the law of the latter half of the 19th Century paid no great time and attention to who had married by license and ceremony and who had not. Still, it was during those years between the Civil War and World War I that the terms of common law marriage became rather well established and widely known. > > Take up together, hold yourselves out to the World as married, and have kids, and the law will view you as married in every sense, whether you later want to be so considered or not. If there were no kids born to the marriage (alive OR stillborn) it was not so clear. In those cases, generally it was held that the more joint interests and assets the couple had accumulated, the more likely the law would view them as having permanently married in the legal sense. > > It is a pity to so state, but it must be added that whether or not Blacks or the very poor - the "Poor White Trash" as in "Gone with the Wind" - had married by license and ceremony was of considerably less concern to the powers-that-be than if those couples were White. The reasons for that view were many, though chief among was the widespread discrimination, especially in the North. Perhaps even more, very few of those "marriages" accumulated enough assets to be of interest, even to the taxing authorities of government. > > Paul > ----- Original Message ----- > From: M.... > To: pauldrake@charter.net > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 12:44 PM > Subject: Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] divorce in antebellum America > > > Hello > Here is another question since you are talking about divorce. What is your take on marriage between slaves after the civil war? If two slaves considered themselves "married", what are the odds that they would have legitimized it after the war? Would they have considered themselves to be married under "common-law"? > April > > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.4/66 - Release Date: 8/9/2005 > > ______________________________

Paul and Others: If you are going to trade livestock on the list, Please Change the subject line to better describe the animals! List Administrator, G. Lee Hearl Authentic Appalachian Storyteller Abingdon, Va.

hahahahah. Hey, what do I know from cows. Still, I have several inventories from the very last years of the 18th Century in which cows and calves sold for amounts from 1.00 to 3.50. In fact, as late as 1849, my physician G-Gfather bought a mare for riding to and from his office and on business, and paid 20.00 for it. That would amount to about 800.00 today. Still, why not tell us what a young cow of ordinary quality and breeding and intended for family milk (there were virtually no pure bred cattle for sale to the ordinary citizen then) would now fetch, and would that vary a lot across the country? Thanks. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Alice Sanders To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 12:50 PM Subject: RE: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] divorce in Colonial VA I don't know how many cows you've tried to buy lately but I would suggest you have a little more in your bank account than $90 to $100. At least in this part of the country.

Hello Everyone, I am not familiar with Virginia divorce petition procedures, but a few years ago on a North Carolina list a poster provided some information found at an LDS library in Florida on some information in the "boxes" involved in divorce petitions in North Carolina during a period I believe was the early 1800s. I could not find this information again from the archives readily on the three or four lists on which I thought it had been posted. However, I would like to make a couple of points, larger legal issues and procedures aside. First, the obvious is that the finding of a divorce case can "solve" genealogy issues, such as how does Mr. X show up in Tennessee without his wife, Sarah? Is Sarah X still in North Carolina his wife or daughter or daughter-in-law? This is one of many avenues, such as chancery court cases, that aren't immediately apparent to researchers. My impression, though, is that children weren't perhaps named in such cases routinely. Second, NC petitions, if I recall correctly, were considered by legislative committees before being presented for a vote to the entire body. This consideration included interviews/affadavits of the petitioner and his/her spouse's supporters. I have been given to understand that in North Carolina, at least, at the State Archives there are files for each case which in some cases include transcripts of interviews, affadavits or at least lists of these supporters. This too can be valuable information regarding neighbors, other family members in the area, or perhaps elsewhere if an affadavit was submitted from another jurisdiction, etc. I would imagine that the contents of the boxes, like probate folders in various counties, vary in their completeness. Third, again if memory serves correctly, there is an index of sorts for these cases which names the parties to the marriage, dates, box reference numbers. At the NC State Archives, most of their original documents are in files combined with other files in boxes much like those at the National Archives that carry the original purchase agreements (as opposed to the actual certificates online at the BLM website) for land grants in the states such as Missouri, Arkansas, etc. which are divided into Range, Township, and Sections. Best Regards, Janet (Baugh) Hunter

For the information of all, notice - with her permission - this example that Ms. Katherine has supplied. ----- Original Message ----- From: Katharine Harbury To: Paul Drake Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:29 AM Subject: RE: Divorce On the subject of pre-Revolutionary War separations and divorces, I would like to add two comments- 1. While cases like the 1655 example were rarely granted, I have seen such examples elsewhere in Virginia. More commonly found are petitions to the courts by severely abused and desperate wives in fear of their lives. While divorces were not granted, these courts often agreed to grant their wishes for a permanent physical separation from their husbands. These wives either found lodging with their relatives, worked as servants for others, or worked in some lady-like employment to support themselves. Only a few judges were insensitive enough to insist that the wife return with court-appointed men to work on a reconciliation and extract "promises" from the spouse to behave better. 2. The following is another example of a couple who dissolved their marriage in June 1766 as found in Prince William County Deed Book Q, 1763-1768, pp. 404-406. The terms of the separation and handling of the properties were clearly spelled out: "...Whereas a Marriage hath been sometime past had and solemnized Between said Henry Willson and Sarah Thorn, Widow of William Thorn deceased, And Whereas Henry Willson in consideration of the said Marriage and the sums of money which he hath had and received or is to have and receive of the effects and Estate of his said Wife which she had a right to or might claim as her Thirds Dower or Childs part of hr first former Husbands Estate lands and effects or hath a Legal right or had acquired between the death of her First Husband and Intermarriage with said Henry Willson and for making a provision for his said Wife, Sarah, for her maintenance and livelihood having by mutual consent separated and parted from each other and from this time forward as much as in them doth lye do mutually absolve and Desolve their marriage vows, Conjugal dutys, contracts, obligations and Engagements as man and wife having finally and forever Separated and parted looking upon neither as any part of the others care, charge or Family..." [Sarah also received back all the estate/effects she possessed before her marriage to Henry Willson. She also relinquished any claims on Henry Willson's estate/effects, even if she survived him.]

Good info, Janet, and the cases sent by subscribers to the VA library list amply demonstrated that there surely were divorces "a mensa et thoro" granted by the county courts as early as the 17th Century. There were not, however, and as Mr. Gill and I both stated, final divorces in VA before the Revolution. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: janethunter703@aol.com To: NCBERTIE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [NCBERTIE] Divorce Petitions -- Genealogy Information Hello Everyone, I am not familiar with Virginia divorce petition procedures, but a few years ago on a North Carolina list a poster provided some information found at an LDS library in Florida on some information in the "boxes" involved in divorce petitions in North Carolina during a period I believe was the early 1800s. I could not find this information again from the archives readily on the three or four lists on which I thought it had been posted -- the NC Bertie list being one of them. However, I would like to make a couple of points, larger legal issues and procedures aside. First, the obvious is that the finding of a divorce case can "solve" genealogy issues, such as how does Mr. X show up in Tennessee without his wife, Sarah? Is Sarah X still in North Carolina his wife or daughter or daughter-in-law? This is one of many avenues, such as chancery court cases, that aren't immediately apparent to researchers. My impression, though, is that children weren't perhaps named in such cases routinely. Second, NC petitions, if I recall correctly, were considered by legislative committees before being presented for a vote to the entire body. This consideration included interviews/affadavits of the petitioner and his/her spouse's supporters. I have been given to understand that in North Carolina, at least, at the State Archives there are files for each case which in some cases include transcripts of interviews, affadavits or at least lists of these supporters. This too can be valuable information regarding neighbors, other family members in the area, or perhaps elsewhere if an affadavit was submitted from another jurisdiction, etc. I would imagine that the contents of the boxes, like probate folders in various counties, vary in their completeness. Third, again if memory serves correctly, there is an index of sorts for these cases which names the parties to the marriage, dates, box reference numbers. At the NC State Archives, most of their original documents are in files combined with other files in boxes much like those at the National Archives that carry the original purchase agreements (as opposed to the actual certificates online at the BLM website) for land grants in the states such as Missouri, Arkansas, etc. which are divided into Range, Township, and Sections. Best Regards, Janet (Baugh) Hunter

My ancestor, Sarah Hawkins Clark, granddaughter of John Seiver, 1st gorvorner of Tennessee received a divorce from her husband,but then having "connections" may have pulled some weight. <smile> Some of my Cleveland kin also were able to get divorces. Benjamin Cleveland was a judge. Grounds for Divorce; Criminal Adultery Habersham County, Georgia Records; Sarah testified "that after ten years in much peace & harmony...and afterwards to wit in the year 1812, James Rutherford Wyly forgetting & disregarding his duties as a husband, commenced a course of unkind & ill treatment toward your petitioner, refusing her his countenance, support & protection; reviling & abusing your petitioner..and had criminal intercourse with other women" Cheers, Grace S. Green

I don't know how many cows you've tried to buy lately but I would suggest you have a little more in your bank account than $90 to $100. At least in this part of the country. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Drake [mailto:pauldrake@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:53 PM To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] divorce in Colonial VA As to your second question; I do not want to start an argument, yet my studies reveal that 2.00 in 1800 would have an approximate value today of about $90 to $100.00. So, yes, you could buy a cow for that sum. ----- Original Message ----- From: DAVID KAREN DALE To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] divorce in Colonial VA That is wonderful! "Dully satisfied," huh? Anything to get rid of her! I've got a deed in which a man used the terms of indenture and sale to give his three daughters away--but at least he didn't charge the "adopting" couple anything! Could you buy a cow for $2 in 1804? Karen ----- Original Message ----- From: Joel S. Russell<mailto:jsruss@mindspring.com> To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com<mailto:VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] divorce in Colonial VA Here's one way to get rid of a spouse I guess. It's from NC and after the Revolution, but quite curious. At least to me it is. http://www.mindspring.com/%7Ejsruss/carteret/wifesale.htm<http://www.minds pring.com/~jsruss/carteret/wifesale.htm> Joel ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== Do not post Advertisements, Chain Letters, Virus Warnings etc. to this list. If in doubt, Contact: G. Lee Hearl, Adm. at: glh@naxs.com<mailto:glh@naxs.com> Hosted by Rootsweb http://www.rootsweb.com<http://www.rootsweb.com/> ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx<http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.a shx> ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== USGenWeb Archives http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb Do Not Flame other Members on List. If you have problems or concerns with list posts, contact the List Administrator. glh@naxs.com ============================== Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 8/9/2005 ______________________________

Enough, by me, of divorces. Please send any further questions to me personally and off-list. Thanks. Paul

Good info, Grace. Here are additional instances of pre-Revolutionary VA divorces "a mensa et thoro". For me, the question of whether or not there were divorces before the Revolution is concluded, and the answer is, there were. Ms. Katherine also has demonstrated that there were such a mensa et thoro proceedings that were not so labeled. Whether that was a device by judges to avoid the "no divorce" rule (as suggested by Brent Tarter, or instead, represents that they simply seldom used that legal term probably can not now be determined, yet the effect was surely the same. However labeled, the courts lent substantial aid to abused/neglected women. I am reminded of an Ohio court who in the 19th Century said, "Happily the law has devices to deal with cheats (abusers) of the newest invention." ***** On the subject of pre-Revolutionary War separations and divorces, I would like to add two comments- 1. While cases like the 1655 example were rarely granted, I have seen such examples elsewhere in Virginia. More commonly found are petitions to the courts by severely abused and desperate wives in fear of their lives. While divorces were not granted, these courts often agreed to grant their wishes for a permanent physical separation from their husbands. These wives either found lodging with their relatives, worked as servants for others, or worked in some lady-like employment to support themselves. Only a few judges were insensitive enough to insist that the wife return with court-appointed men to work on a reconciliation and extract "promises" from the spouse to behave better. 2. The following is another example of a couple who dissolved their marriage in June 1766 as found in Prince William County Deed Book Q, 1763-1768, pp. 404-406. The terms of the separation and handling of the properties were clearly spelled out: "...Whereas a Marriage hath been sometime past had and solemnized Between said Henry Willson and Sarah Thorn, Widow of William Thorn deceased, And Whereas Henry Willson in consideration of the said Marriage and the sums of money which he hath had and received or is to have and receive of the effects and Estate of his said Wife which she had a right to or might claim as her Thirds Dower or Childs part of hr first former Husbands Estate lands and effects or hath a Legal right or had acquired between the death of her First Husband and Intermarriage with said Henry Willson and for making a provision for his said Wife, Sarah, for her maintenance and livelihood having by mutual consent separated and parted from each other and from this time forward as much as in them doth lye do mutually absolve and Dissolve their marriage vows, Conjugal dutys, contracts, obligations and Engagements as man and wife having finally and forever Separated and parted looking upon neither as any part of the others care, charge or Family..." [Sarah also received back all the estate/effects she possessed before her marriage to Henry Willson. She also relinquished any claims on Henry Willson's estate/effects, even if she survived him.] ----- Original Message ----- From: GLSGAB@aol.com To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Divorce in the South My ancestor, Sarah Hawkins Clark, granddaughter of John Seiver, 1st gorvorner of Tennessee received a divorce from her husband,but then having "connections" may have pulled some weight. <smile> Some of my Cleveland kin also were able to get divorces. Benjamin Cleveland was a judge. Grounds for Divorce; Criminal Adultery Habersham County, Georgia Records; Sarah testified "that after ten years in much peace & harmony...and afterwards to wit in the year 1812, James Rutherford Wyly forgetting & disregarding his duties as a husband, commenced a course of unkind & ill treatment toward your petitioner, refusing her his countenance, support & protection; reviling & abusing your petitioner..and had criminal intercourse with other women" Cheers, Grace S. Green ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== USGenWeb Archives Census Project http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/census/ ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.5/67 - Release Date: 8/9/2005