Dear Readers - I respond to this discussion ONLY because I had just this week been reading an article which mentions "hearsay" evidence (and other definitions). The article is "Evaluating Evidence" by Val. D. Greenwood (an Accredited Genealogist and a Fellow of the Utah Genealogical Association). It is found in the 1997 Genealogical Journal of the UGA, Vol. 25 No. 2, which I had picked up at the FGS convention in SLC last month. He defines evidence as "anything that pertains to or establishes the point or issue in question. It is the medium by which facts are proven." He talks about the types of evidence: direct, circumstantial primary, secondary collateral and hearsay. His definition of hearsay evidence is: any evidence that is outside of the personal knowledge of the witness providing it." He goes on to say that the term hearsay applies to that which is WRITTEN (my emphasis) as well as to that which is spoken. Therefore, he points out, "virtually all evidence we use in genealogical research is hearsay evidence..." Another point he brings up is one he says "not everyone agrees with me on this issue..." - "but I believe that it is useful for the genealogist to think in terms of evidence rather than sources." He points out that sources may contain more than one type of evidence, secondary as well as primary, and uses a death certificate as an example. The primary evidence is the date and place of death, whereas any other data may be secondary - parents' names, place of birth, even the actual name of the decedent (my interpretation). You mention the gravestone - the date of death may have been given to the engraver from a primary source, but there might be errors in transcription of the date, or the name or anything else. But, by his definition, it is still hearsay. Which should not, in the instance of genealogy, count against it. Mr. Greenwood also suggests more reading on the subject of evidence and its relationship to genealogy: 1. His own book "The Researcher's Guide to American Genealogy, 2d ed. (Baltimore Genealogical Publishing Co.) 1990, chap. 4, "Evaluation of Evidence." 2. Noel C. Stevenson, Genealogical Evidence, rev. ed. (Laguna Hills, CA: Aegean Park Press) 1979. See especially chapter 21, "Rules of Evidence Applied to Genealogy," and chapter 22, "Hearsay Evidence." Then again, we have our own expert, Paul. Oh, by the way, I consider a "clue" as undocumented information I receive from others. Paul Drake wrote: > Hi, Karen. You have done much searching and analyzing; good for you!! You have a substantial little pile of evidence. > > If you don't mind my saying so, you explained what you had clearly, but why did you tell us you had "hearsay" sources? Can you see, Nice and Dear Lady, that after you say those words, we know not one whit more about those bits of evidence; the label helped us not atall? > > Finally near the end, you say that your "secondary sources" were books. Why not just tell us that "Books were my sources as to facts X and Y", rather than force us to guess what those bits of evidence really were ? > > Then too, you say "hard evidence"; would a headstone so qualify? If you think not, then tell us why, please. If you think it would, I would suggest that headstones are hearsay in its most classical and purest form, yet we do not call those by any label, do we? And for good reason; that goofy label tells us ZIP about the headstone, yet we surely put headstones in our little piles of evidence for whatever truth there may be there, huh? > > Oh yeh, did I mention that a headstone also is "circumstantial" in its purest form? Hey too, headstones are surely "secondary", don't you guess? But wait, those stones are certainly also "primary" (even if in error) that someone is buried there, huh? All these faults and different labels, yet we still keep the headstone info in our files. > > Again, good job of collecting and ordering your bits and scraps of evidentiary material. > > Paul > > > ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== > USGenWeb Archives http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb > Do Not Flame other Members on List. > If you have problems or concerns with list posts, contact the List Administrator. glh@naxs.com > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > > >

Hi, Karen. You have done much searching and analyzing; good for you!! You have a substantial little pile of evidence. If you don't mind my saying so, you explained what you had clearly, but why did you tell us you had "hearsay" sources? Can you see, Nice and Dear Lady, that after you say those words, we know not one whit more about those bits of evidence; the label helped us not atall? Finally near the end, you say that your "secondary sources" were books. Why not just tell us that "Books were my sources as to facts X and Y", rather than force us to guess what those bits of evidence really were ? Then too, you say "hard evidence"; would a headstone so qualify? If you think not, then tell us why, please. If you think it would, I would suggest that headstones are hearsay in its most classical and purest form, yet we do not call those by any label, do we? And for good reason; that goofy label tells us ZIP about the headstone, yet we surely put headstones in our little piles of evidence for whatever truth there may be there, huh? Oh yeh, did I mention that a headstone also is "circumstantial" in its purest form? Hey too, headstones are surely "secondary", don't you guess? But wait, those stones are certainly also "primary" (even if in error) that someone is buried there, huh? All these faults and different labels, yet we still keep the headstone info in our files. Again, good job of collecting and ordering your bits and scraps of evidentiary material. Paul

Note this man trained as a lawyer, folks. Can you tell? <<grin>> But I trained as a composition teacher who drills "examples, examples, examples," so here are some examples to fill out his discussion. I have just finished explaining to a woman that while I only have a few pieces of "hard" evidence, there is enough other evidence to declare parents for her ggf, but not enough to decide who her gggf belonged to. I have a death certificate that states Elijah's father was Cash. I have hearsay evidence that says Elijah was the son of a Sarah Jane. I have the 1870 census that says this Sarah Jane was called "Janey." I have a marriage license for Cash and "Jannie" in 1882, at a time appropriate to his birth. And in 1900 I have Elijah in the same household with Sarah Jane's mother--but he's labeled as "brother" to her son, not nephew. Nevertheless...I'm ready to declare that one "solved." Determining the gggf, Cash, is a little shakier. I have a Cash of the right age and location in the 1870, 1880,1900, 1910, 1920 and 1930 census. 1900-1930 he was married to another Sarah, but she went by Sallie. She was 10 years younger than he was. In 1870 he was listed last in Lewis' household--looks like he's not one of Lewis' children. 1880 says flat out he was Lewis' grandson. In 1910 he said he'd been married twice. In 1930 he said he was 20 when he was first married; Sarah says she was 19 when she first married, but remember, she's 10 years younger than he was--at least on all censuses except 1930--which has them the same age. If I look at only that census, I've missed it all! Several of the census records put their marriage at 1889. I also have hearsay evidence that a Sarah Brown married a Cash Moon of Walton Co. GA, no date given. Taking ALL of this evidence--and note it took several census records to do it--I have pretty good evidence that Cash was married first in 1881-1882, so certainly looks like this is the Cash who married Janie in 1882--and the Cash who is named as father to Elijah. I'll buy it. My next problem is Cash's father. All I have at the moment is Grandfather Lewis' oldest son, age 17 on the 1850-1860 census--the only one old enough (barely!) to be Cash's father. Then we jump to 9 year old Cash in Lewis' household 1870. NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO DECLARE ANYTHING! Oh wait, one more piece of "evidence"--I know this family so well that I am not at all surprised at the thought of an early marriage--a 17 year old male in this family (and in this farming community) was by no means an usual groom. It's certainly plausible. I also know history--so I suspect that Cash's father marched down to the enlistment office in April 1861 (Cash was born May 1861), signed up for the CSA, and never returned. Even that "suspicion" is evidence. What do I need to declare Cash's parents? A marriage record, of course--but it's a burned county. A Civil War record would help explain what happened to the oldest son who MIGHT be his father. Someone else's probate or other records that refer to a grandson Cash would give me a mother. But again, we're talking a burned county. Probably not going to find those things. None of the hearsay evidence I have (two books on the family) says anything--except that Lewis had a SON named Cash--true, but he appears to have died before age 10, and I have evidence that Cash was a grandson. So where from here? No telling--we just keep waiting for ANY pieces of evidence (pieces of the puzzle!) that might fill in the gaps and assure me I've found Cash's parents. It's taken us two years to determine Elijah's! Bits and pieces. Odds and ends. And at some point, maybe I'll have enough "weight" to say, yes, this son of Lewis' is Cash's father. But the mother is going to be a REAL challenge! Karen Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Drake<mailto:pauldrake@charter.net> To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com<mailto:VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 12:17 PM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] CLUES are EVIDENCE Thanks to Marketta, who asks what we mean by "genealogical clues". My answer will likely start a fire-storm, but so be it. In short, there ain't no such animal as a "clue". There is only evidence. Every single scrap, word, document, memento, citation, entry in a courthouse or archive, and every recollection and anecdote of every family member or acquaintance that in ANY way tends to establish some certain lineage IS evidence, and each bit of that evidence varies, not in kind, but only in reliability and the weight to be accorded that material. We gather all those pieces of evidence that we can find; some very powerful and convincing and other bits very weak or perhaps even valueless. Still, it all is evidence, and when our little pile of evidence is big and weighty enough, we say we have "proved" the hypothesis (relationship). UNLESS we are teaching, that is all there is to the whole matter of evidence and proof. To waste time, thought, and e-mail space hunting for appropriate labels or deciding whether this or that scrap of evidence is primary, secondary, direct, indirect, hearsay, circumstantial, or any other of those labels some folks attach, is simply silly. In research - ours and all other - reliability and weight are the sole determining factors as to what we should heed and what we should ignore or set aside. That is true, no matter who provides that evidence, where it was found, or what it may have been called by some abstractor or family history writer. Finally, as you consider the above, be aware of a most fundamental and basic tenet evidence. We label some bits of evidence as hearsay (or circumstantial, or etc.) because those are unreliable; we do NOT say those are unreliable because such are hearsay. Paul ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== USGenWeb Archives http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb<http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb> Do Not Flame other Members on List. If you have problems or concerns with list posts, contact the List Administrator. glh@naxs.com<mailto:glh@naxs.com> ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx<http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx>

Thanks to Marketta, who asks what we mean by "genealogical clues". My answer will likely start a fire-storm, but so be it. In short, there ain't no such animal as a "clue". There is only evidence. Every single scrap, word, document, memento, citation, entry in a courthouse or archive, and every recollection and anecdote of every family member or acquaintance that in ANY way tends to establish some certain lineage IS evidence, and each bit of that evidence varies, not in kind, but only in reliability and the weight to be accorded that material. We gather all those pieces of evidence that we can find; some very powerful and convincing and other bits very weak or perhaps even valueless. Still, it all is evidence, and when our little pile of evidence is big and weighty enough, we say we have "proved" the hypothesis (relationship). UNLESS we are teaching, that is all there is to the whole matter of evidence and proof. To waste time, thought, and e-mail space hunting for appropriate labels or deciding whether this or that scrap of evidence is primary, secondary, direct, indirect, hearsay, circumstantial, or any other of those labels some folks attach, is simply silly. In research - ours and all other - reliability and weight are the sole determining factors as to what we should heed and what we should ignore or set aside. That is true, no matter who provides that evidence, where it was found, or what it may have been called by some abstractor or family history writer. Finally, as you consider the above, be aware of a most fundamental and basic tenet evidence. We label some bits of evidence as hearsay (or circumstantial, or etc.) because those are unreliable; we do NOT say those are unreliable because such are hearsay. Paul

Dear Bruce, You say have been snagged by not finding a deed wherein your person acquired his land in and around Halifax Co., VA. He may have acquired the land in a parent county. But also, he may have gotten the land from the government--through a land patent. To find a parent county of any US county, use the Family History Library Catalog on _www.familysearch.org_ (http://www.familysearch.org) and then do a PLACE search. Type in the name of the county [but leave off the word county and then type in the State. The first lines will tell you when a county was formed, and what the parent county was. I copied this from the familysearch.org, doing a search of the catalog for Halifax Co., VA Formed in 1752 from Lunenburg County. Lunenburg was a HUGE county at one time, and there are many books on Lunenburg Co. where you may find some of your elusive North Carolinians!!! Have you searched the land patents for Virginia, which are online at the Library of Virginia website? (I do a google.com search for library of virgina, and the URL which bears the suffix *what we have* is the one you want to access.) My list of favorites is SO LONG that it is easier for me to use google.com There were several ways to acquire land: patent or grant, from the state (or later from the Federal) government; purchase from an individual (deed); deed of gift (generally recorded in a deed book); etc. Also never overlook sheriff's sales, sales by a corporation, like a railroad, etc. Also, the deed may be recorded in a different county, particularly if your person owned the land before the progeny county was formed. That is why county boundary change maps, like the one compiled by Michael L. Doran for Virginia's counties, are so helpful. Were I you, depending on the time period, I believe I would try to find some of the books on Lunenburg Co. compiled by Landon C. Bell (do an author search on the FHL catalog--all of his books are good). He did a lot of research of Lunenburg Co., and one of his books has a huge map of that area, from which most Southside Cos. were later formed. Lunenburg Co. itslef was formed from Brunswick Co. If you cannot find these books of Bell's at a nearby library (try University libraries and community college libraries), ask your librarian about interlibrary loan. Occasionally, the FHL in Salt Lake City will film or microfiche a book, and you can order the film or fiche from FHL for a small fee. However, reading a book on film is not as handy as having one in your hand!!! Also, rather recently, I believe Stephen E. Bradley have done some land survey records for Southside Virginia. You can do an author search on the FHL catalog and then choose the books which interest you. Bradley probably has a website, and I believe you can still purchase his books, but you again might want to ask about interlibrary loan. These books are rather fragile and perhaps the libraries do not let their genealogy books circulate. I don't think our people paid much attention to county lines, but the WATERCOURSE (creek, river, run, swamp) is most important in researching your people. Also note the neighbors along that watercourse. They frequently intermarried and migrated together. (This was a trick taught to me by a DAR staff genealogist--neighbors [associates] and watercourses.) I hope this helps. We have to always learn new tricks--and techniques, as these records were kept for the government and not for us genealogists. E.W.Wallace

I would be curious to know if it has any relationship to Blackwater Swamp and/or Blackwater Creek referred to so frequently in Southside patents. John M. Poythress

Pat, I did a quick search of the internet with little success. I did find an article from 2002 about a Women's rugby match where East Carolina University traveled to Farmville, VA and played a game again Blackwater College, followed right afterward with a game against Longwood College. I found Longwood University located in Farmville, but nothing more on Blackwater. Farmville is in Prince Edward County which is adjacent to Nottoway County. Good luck. Joel http://www.mindspring.com/~jsruss/ At 01:32 PM 9/28/2005, PACJ1945@aol.com wrote: >Can anyone tell me where Blackwater College is or was in the mid to late >1800's. I have an ancestor, b. 1874, who m.1898, attended and >graduated from >Blackwater with a music degree. In the 1880 census, her family >was residing in >Nottoway Co., Va. > >Thank you >Pat C. Johns in Va. > > >==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== >USGenWeb Archives http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb >Do Not Flame other Members on List. >If you have problems or concerns with list posts, contact the List >Administrator. glh@naxs.com > >============================== >Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the >areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. >Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx

Can anyone tell me where Blackwater College is or was in the mid to late 1800's. I have an ancestor, b. 1874, who m.1898, attended and graduated from Blackwater with a music degree. In the 1880 census, her family was residing in Nottoway Co., Va. Thank you Pat C. Johns in Va.

I just looked at another page and it seems that in some cases Prince Edward wasn't written but instead the transcriber read U.S. as N.S. and went with Nova Scotia -- line after line after line.

I know many people like to bash Ancestry.com, but I've always been a big defender of their on-line census images despite their terrible transcriptions and indexing. That said, I have to share this with the list: on the 1920 census for Charlotte County, VA many of the people gave their place of birth as "Prince Edward" -- that's Prince Edward County, Virginia, on the northern edge of Charlotte. In his/her brilliance, the Ancestry transcriber interpreted this as "Prince Edward Island" and has put all these people as having been born in Nova Scotia! Dozens and dozens of them! Who knew Charlotte was so full of black Canadians in 1920?! This would be funny if it wasn't so darn pitiful. Please don't start another round of bashing Ancestry.com -- I just thought you all might like to share my amazement. Kathy

Peyton Randolph, Patrick Henry, Jun. Robert Carton Nicholas, Peter Johnson Richard Bland, Henry Lee Archibald Cary, Nathaniel Terry Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Whiting Charles Carter, Landcaster, Thomas Jefferson George Washington, Thomas Nelson, Jun. Carter Braxton, James Walker Severn Eyre, John Alexander Richard Randolph, Champion Travis George Ball, John Wilson, Augusta Thomas Harrison, William Clayton Thomas Claiborne, Robert Munford, Mecklenburg John Blair, Jun., Thomas Bailey Thomas Mason, Thomas Scott Josias Payne, Jun., Lewis Burwell Burwell Bassett, John Harmanson Richard Anderson, Thomas Parramore James Scott, Junr., John Donelson John Green, Cornelius Thomas Wilson Miles Cary, Thomas Johnson Gabriel Jones, John Lewis, Jun William Riddick, William Roane Thomas Glascock, William Acrill John Woodson , Hartwell Cocke Benjamin Howard, Joseph Cabell Isaac Read, Alexander Trent Foushee Tebbs, John Mayo Edward Osborne, David Mason Francis Peyton , William Macon, Jun. Abraham Hite, Hugh Innes James Wood, Bolling Starke Richard Baker, Robert Bolling Edwin Gray, Paul Carrington Robert Munford, Amelia, Thomas Walker Henry Taylor, William Cabell, Jun. Nathaniel Edwards, Jun., John Talbott Charles Lunch, Edward Hack Moseley, Jun. James Hamilton, John Ackiss David Meade, James Bridger Philip Ludwell Grymes, Chrles Carter, King George Richard Starke, Clerk to the Association. The Business being finished, the following Toasts were drank, and the Gentlemen retired. In compliance with the foregoing Invitation, we do most cordially accede and agree to the Association fo laudably propossed: and in Testimony thereof have subscribed in Names this Day of 1769. William Matthis, N. Ellzey, Wm. Walrond Samuel Baker, J. Gwatkin, Rd Milton Jas. Lane, Travers Nash, Wm. Stanhope Tho. Gift, Isaac Davis, Wm. Walrond Wm. George, Daniel Kincheloe, Samuel Baker George Steadon, John Terry, J. Gwatkin Amos Davis, Thos Bird, Rd Milton Samuel Tatem, Richard Melton

Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia 1766-1769, edited by H. R. McIlwaine. GEN 75.5 Burg V.11, pps. xl-xliii (An Abstract of Articles of Agreement by Marla Moore) Thursday, May 18, <1769.> A committee was appointed to make their report, and is as follows: We his Majesty’s most dutiful Subjects, the late Representatives of all the Freeholders of the Colony of Virginia, avowing our inviolable and unshaken Fidelity and Loyalty to our most gracious Sovereign, our Affection for all our Fellow Subjects of Great Britain protesting against every Act or Thing, which may have the most distant Tendancy to interrupt, or in any wife disturb his Majesty’s Peace, and the good Order of his Government in this Colony, which we are resolved, at the Risque of our Lives an Fortune, to maintain and defend; but at the same Time, being deeply affected with the Grievances and Distresses, with which his Majesty’s American Subjects are oppressed, and dreading the Evils which threaten the ruin of ourselves and our Prosperity, by reducing us from a free and happy People to a wretched and miserable State of Slavery, and having taken into our most serious Consideration the present State of the Trade of this Colony, and of the American Commerce in general, observe with Anxiety, that the Debt due to Great Britain for Goods imported from thence is very great, and that the Means of paying this Debt, in the present Situation of Affairs, are likely to become amore and more precarious, that the Difficulties, under which we now labour, are owing to the Restrictions, Prohibitions, and ill advised Regulations in several late Acts of Parliament of Great Britain, in particular, that the late unconstitutional Act, imposing Duties on Tea, Paper, Glass, &c, for the sole purpose of raising a Revenue in America, is injurious to Property, and the destructive to Liberty, hath a necessary Tendency to prevent the Payment of the Debt due from this Colony to Great Britain, and is, of Consequence, ruinous to Trade; that, notwithstanding the many earnest Applications already made, there is little Reason to expect a Redress of those Grievances; Therefore, in Justice to ourselves and our Posterity, as well as to the Traders of Great Britain concerned in the American Commerce, we the subscribers, have voluntarily and unanimously entered into the following Resolutions, in Hopes that our Example will induce the good People of this Colony to be frugal in the use and consumption of British Manufacturers, and that the Merchants and Manufacturers of Great Britain may, from Motives of Interest, Friendship and Justice, be engaged to exert themselves to obtain for us a Redress of those Grievances, under which the Trade and Inhabitants of American at present labour: We do therefore most earnestly recommend this our Association to the serious inhabitants of this Colony, in Hopes, that they will very readily and cordially accede thereto. (Note: Eight articles of resolution follow, which “discourage all Manner of Luxury and Extravagance”, directing “Correspondents to ship them no Goods whatever, taxed as aforesaid”. Due to space limitations, I have omitted these articles, with the exception of the last.) Eigthly, and Lastly, that these Resolves shall be binding on all and each of the Subscribers, who do hereby each and every Person for himself, upon his Word and Honour, agree that he will strictly and firmly adhere to and abide by every Article in this Agreement, from the Time of his signing the same, for an during the Continuance of the before mentioned Acts of Parliament…. Peyton Randolph Patrick Henry, Jun. Robert Carton Nicholas Peter Johnson Richard Bland Henry Lee Archibald Cary Nathaniel Terry Richard Henry Lee Thomas Whiting Charles Carter, Landcaster Thomas Jefferson George Washington Thomas Nelson, Jun. Carter Braxton James Walker Severn Eyre John Alexander Richard Randolph Champion Travis George Ball John Wilson, Augusta Thomas Harrison William Clayton Thomas Claiborne Robert Munford, Mecklenburg John Blair, Jun. Thomas Bailey Thomas Mason Thomas Scott Josias Payne, Jun. Lewis Burwell Burwell Bassett John Harmanson Richard Anderson Thomas Parramore James Scott, Junr. John Donelson John Green Cornelius Thomas Wilson Miles Cary Thomas Johnson Gabriel Jones John Lewis, Jun William Riddick William Roane Thomas Glascock William Acrill John Woodson Hartwell Cocke Benjamin Howard Joseph Cabell Isaac Read Alexander Trent Foushee Tebbs John Mayo Edward Osborne David Mason Francis Peyton William Macon, Jun. Abraham Hite Hugh Innes James Wood Bolling Starke Richard Baker Robert Bolling Edwin Gray Paul Carrington Robert Munford, Amelia Thomas Walker Henry Taylor William Cabell, Jun. Nathaniel Edwards, Jun. John Talbott Charles Lunch Edward Hack Moseley, Jun. James Hamilton John Ackiss David Meade James Bridger Philip Ludwell Grymes Chrles Carter, King George Richard Starke, Clerk to the Association. The Business being finished, the following Toasts were drank, and the Gentlemen retired. In compliance with the foregoing Invitation, we do most cordially accede and agree to the Association fo laudably propossed: and in Testimony thereof have subscribed in Names this Day of 1769. William Matthis N. Ellzey Wm. Walrond Samuel Baker J. Gwatkin Rd Milton Jas. Lane Travers Nash Wm. Stanhope Tho. Gift Isaac Davis Wm. Walrond Wm. George Daniel Kincheloe Samuel Baker George Steadon John Terry J. Gwatkin Amos Davis Thos Bird Rd Milton Samuel Tatem Richard Melton

Dear Harris-Hunters, especially of Colonial Virginia, Here are some notes (and attempted analysis) I have made over the years in an attempt to link, if possible, Robert Harris, of Louisa Co., to his probable brothers. I believe these documents indicate that there were at least two brothers: Benjamin and Frederick. Please send your comments and corrections to the List, so that all may benefit. If you can cite your sources (not plucked from some vast undocumented database), your efforts will be greatly by all your knfolk--out there !!! This is long, so take a deep breath. E.W.Wallace BENJAMIN HARRIS I OF COLONIAL LOUISA CO., VA. Malcolm Hart Harris in "Three William Harrises in Hanover County" in VIRGINIA GENEALOGIST, V. 22, p. 3 ff, states that Benjamin Harris married Sarah Dumas 27 Jun 1737 and he died 13 Mar 1762. A patent cited below indicates that a Dumas family was a neighbor of Benjamin Harris. He apparently had a wife named Mary at the time of his death ca 1765 in Louisa Co., VA which had been formed from Hanover Co. in 1742. Benjamin Harris in his Louisa Co. will of 1765 (WB 1-72) named as executors his wife Mary and his two brothers, Frederick Harris and Robert Harris (of Louisa, later of Albemarle Co.) He named two sons, as indicated below, and there was a third son, whose name does not appear in the torn will. Apparently Benjamin Harris had been married previously to a woman named Sarah, as indicated in the following deed, but Sarah is not the name of his widow Mary.+ Benjamin Harris had previously lived in Hanover Co. from which Louisa Co. had been formed 1742. Hanover Co. VA Records - 1733 Hanover Co., VA Court Records 1733-1735: pp. 14-15: INDENT. 1 Feb 1733 Robert Harris of Hanover Co. to Benjamin Harris of Co. afsd; 40 pds sterling money; 256 a. on both sides of north fork of Little River bounded by the lines of Stephen Pettus, John Garland, William Mullin, Benjamin Brown, William Harris and Benjamin Byb. /s/ Robert Harris. Wit: Thomas Dickinson, James Harris, Richard Harris 1 Feb 1733 ack. by Robert Harris. p. 15 INDENT. 1 Feb 1733 Benjamin Harris of Hanover Co. to Robert Harris of Co. afsd; 40 pds sterling money of England; 256 a. left him by the Last Will and Testament of his Father, William Harris dec'd., being commonly known by the name of Walkers Neck. /s/ Benjamin Harris. Wit: Thomas Dickinson, James Harris, Richard Harris. 1 Feb 1733 ack. by Benjamin Harris. (Rosalie Edith Davis, HANOVER COUNTY, VIRGINIA COURT RECORDS 1733-1735: DEEDS, WILLS AND INVENTORIES [Manchester, MO: 1979], pp. 4-5) This latter deed establishes the fact that Benjamin Harris is a child of William Harris and his wife Temperance Overton, as is Robert Harris. The identities of two of the witnesses, James Harris and Richard Harris, are unknown to this writer. We do not know to which Harris an ordinary in Hanover Co. ca 1733 had belonged, but reference is made in an ordinary license bond in which Thomas Trevillion and Matthew Jouet bound themselves. Trevillion had obtained a license to keep an Ordinary "at the place called Harris's Ordinary in this Co." for one year. One of the daughters of Robert Harris married John Jouett, who in Revolutionary times lived in or near Albemarle Co., VA. Whether the Harrises intermarried with the Trevillions is unknown. Louisa Co. Records (Louisa Co. formed 1742 from Hanover Co.) 1745 - Louisa Co. DB A-187 25 Jun 1745 Benjamin Harris and Sarah, his wife, of St. Martin's Par., Louisa Co., to Robert Harris of Fredericksville Par., Louisa Co. 50 pds currt money. 400 A in Fredericksville Par... land whereon sd. Harris now lives ... at head of Rocky branch in Harper Ratclift's line .. Ratclift's and John Matlock's line ... Samuel Waddy's line by main branch of Hickory Bear Creek ... Thomas Thomson's corner; granted to John Blair of the city of Williamsburg, Esqr., by patent 17 Mar 1736; conveyed to Benjamin Harris by deed at the Capitol, 23 Oct 1742. /s/ Benja. Harris, Sarah Harris. Wit: Joseph Fox, Jeremiah Glen, Rich. Yancey, Nathl. Williams. 25 June 1745 ack. by Benja. Harris, Sarah, his wife, gave consent. (Rosalie Edith Davis, LOUISA COUNTY, VIRGINIA DEED BOOKS A AND B 1742-1759 [Bellevue, WA: Published by author, 1976], p. 21) Comment 1: The above document confirms that Benjamin's then wife was named Sarah. This also seems to confirm that Benjamin is related to Robert Harris [Major], surveyor of Louisa Co., vestryman of Fredericksville Parish, and sometime member of House of Burgesses. The degree of relationship is not stated in this abstract. Comment 2: Louisa Co. DB A-452 indicates that several years later, in Jan. 1752, Robert Harris conveyed this same parcel of land to his son Tyree Harris (qv), and then in in 1757 Tyree Harris and wife Elizabeth conveyed the same tract to William Anderson, DB B-148, 22 Feb 1757. Tyree Harris may have been preparing for his move to Orange Co., NC. Other deeds show that other land owners on or near Hickory Bear Creek were John Matlock (qv), Thomas Travillion, Thomas Shelton, John Stree, Richard Bullock, Samuel Waddy and Matthew Jouett (qv). 1746 - There is indication that Benjamin Harris and some of his neighbors were Quakers, thus affirming documents and not swearing to them. In 1746, Benjamin Harris was appointed guardian for Charles Yancey, "an infant and eldest son and heir at law of said decedent." (Probate Robert Yancey, Apr 1746, Louisa Co. WB 1, p. 8). Benjamin Harris had been a witness to the will of Robert Yancey. A later entry in WB 3-21, settlement of estate of Rev. Robert Yancey, names all his creditors, among them Rbt. Harris, probably the brother of Benjamin Harris, and also John Jouett, the son-in-law of Robert Harris. In 1747/48, Benjamin patented land in Louisa Co. Patent Bk 26: BENJAMIN HARRIS, 699 acs. Louisa Co. on both sides of Hickory Cr., Beg. at Dumas & Browns former C., on the Orphans Line {Orphans of Hugh Owen}, adj. Benjamin Brown; 5 Mar 1747/48, p. 256. 1 Pound 10 Shillings. The sd L. being formerly grt. Jeremiah Dumas by pat. 28 Sep 1728 (PB 13 p. 468} for 400 acs. but upon a Survey lately made by Robert Harris Surveyor of sd Co. is found to contain 699 acs. the Right & Title of which is since become vested in the sd Benjamin Harris (Dennis Ray Hudgins, CAVALIERS & POINEERS, V. 5, [Richmond, VA: Virginia Genealogical Society, 1998] p. 249) Study of the Benjamin Brown family indicates that one of his sons married Lucretia Harris, believed to be daughter of Robert Harris. 1745 In 1745 a deed was recorded in Amelia Co.: "p. 332 David Harris, planter, of St. Martin's Parish, Hanover Co. to Benjamin Harris, Planter of St. Martin's Parish, Louisa Co., VA. Deed dated 26 Nov 1745. Consideration: 35 pds. Wit: Robert Harris, Thomas Pavilett [Paulett or Pawlett?], William Snelson, James Johnson, James Yancey, Wm. Rice, and Benj. Dumas. 387 A Vaughans Creek being patented to said David Harris on Sep 16, 1743. (Adapted from Gibson Jefferson McConnaughey, AMELIA COUNTY VIRGINIA WILLS 1735-1761; BONDS 1735-1754 [Amelia, VA: Mid South Publications, 1978], p. 50) (Comment: The identity of David Harris is unknown to this writer. A reading of the original deed may help pinpoint his identity. He has not been identified as a son of Capt. William Harris and Temperance Overton nor as a son of Robert Harris. According to the will of Benjamin Harris and subsequent guardianship of his orphans, David Harris was not a child of Benjamin. We have not determined successfully how many related Harrises may have lived in the same neighborhoods.) 1747/48 Patent Bk. NO. 26: Benjamin Harris, 699 acs. Louisa Co. on both sides of Hickory Cr., Beg. at Dumas & Browns form C. on the Orphans Line [Orphans of Hugh Owen], adj. Benjamin Brown; 5 Mar 1747/48, p. 256. L1.S10. The sd L. being formerly gtd Jeremiah Dumas by pat. 28 Sep 1728 [PB 13 p. 468] for 400 acs. but upon a Survey lately made by Robert Harris Surveyor of sd. Co. is found to contain 699 acs. the Right & Title of which is since become vested in the sd. Benjamin Harris. Are the dates in the following abstract in error? Or was that when the will was recorded, or when the guardianship was dismissed? Further research is in order. 1785 Louisa Co. Will Bk 1-72 "Will of Benjamin Harris of Trinity Parish. Wife Mary. 3 sons: Robert, eldest son Overton & ---. Dau: Nancy. Lands to be divided among my eldest son Overton & son Robert at death of my wife. Excrs: wife Mary Harris & two brothers: Frederick Harris & Robert Harris. Signed: Benjamin Harris. Wit: James Overton, Charles Nuckolls, Mary Ratlif. Dated 30 July 1785. Rcd 14 Oct 1785." (Nancy Chappelear & Kate Binford Hatch, ABSTRACTS OF LOUISA COUNTY WILL BOOKS , p. 13) This will (abstracted) confirms that Frederick Harris is also a brother of Benjamin and of Robert Harris. Louisa Co. Will Bk 3-227: "Settlement of est. of Benj. Harris by Elias Thomasson, Excr. For boarding and clothing Overton, Nancy, Robert & Benj; 443 pds-10-10 1/2. Signed: Chs. Barret, Robt. Barret, John Crutchfield, Elijah Dickinson. Rcd. ... 1785" Question: Had the widow Mary Harris remarried to Elias Thomasson, and that is the reason for change of executorship? Stepfathers, by law, could request recompense for boarding their stepchildren. .................. +e-mail from Warren 7/16/2000 indicates this wife's name is Sarah Dumas. She may be a daughter of Benjamin Dumas, a resident of Louisa Co. in 1742.)

There seems to be some continuing interest in Mosias Jones [probably of several generations], of colonial Virginia, an associate of the extended Robert Harris family of colonial Louisa Co. and others later of Albemarle Co. and still later of Madison Co., KY. The Jones family intermarried with the Harris family in colonial Virginia. Note counties listed above. Here are some garbled notes which may help some persons of the Jones-Harris families to untangle SOME of their roots, the surname Jones being as difficult to research as is Harris. As noted, these are notes, and I have made little effort to place events chronologically. However, I believe the migration trail may be similar of that of the Harrises, which is noted in first paragraph. Of course, Louisa Co., VA was formed from Hanover Co., VA, a burned county. The Virginia land patents, which are on the Library of Virginia website, may help you find some Hanover Co. records--but do not overlook adjoining counties, such as Goochland and Henrico Cos. Submotted by E.W.Wallace William Jones who married Isabella Black in May or June 1805--is he widower of Lucy Harris> See marriage of 1 Feb 1790. Rev May 2004 FOSTER JONES. There is limited information concerning Foster Jones. In Vol. 7 of the Lineage Book of the Daughters of the American Colonists, p, 277, Foster Jones, husband of Mourning Harris (b. 1754) is said to have died 1814. No documentation is presented. (Lineage of Mrs. Virginia Field Walton Brooks, born in Jonesboro, Arkansas.) Their children, according to W. H. Miller in his Genealogies [long title but pertaining to families of Madison Co., KY Tyre Harris Jones Mosias Jones Nancy Jones Christopher Jones Elizabeth Jones* Lucy Jones Foster Jones appears sporadically on the tax lists of Madison Co.KY. On the tax list of 1794, he is labeled Fauster Jones. He appears on the tax lists for these years: 1790 1791 - not listed 1792 - not listed 1793 - not listed 1794 - Fauster Jones 1795 1796 1797 1798 - missing 1799 (Comment: When a person failed to pay his taxes in Kentucky, a researcher may find a comment in the court records, as genearlly the court triple-taxed for non-payment of taxes. However, if the land-owner owned property in another county, frequently an adjoining county, he seems to have had the privilege of paying his taxes in that county,which frequently adjoined the *home* county. Therefore, a search of adjoining counties and also the court records of the *home* county may provide additional information.) We believe Mourning Harris, his first (?) wife, may have died after the death of her father, Christopher Harris, the elder, who had named Mourning Jones in his will. On 21 Nov 1799, in Madison Co., KY, Foster Jones m. Margaret Black, Tyree Jones, bondsman. We believe Tryee Jones is the son of Foster Jones. Margaret Black apparently was a widow as later, in 1805, Foster Jones gave consent for Isabella Black who married William Jones; Margaret Jones was mother of the bride. These are some marriages of some of Foster Jones's children: Is Foster Jones father of Robert Jones, the groom? 1797 - Robert Jones on 24 Jan 1797 m. Margaret Black; Margaret Black, mother of bride; John Harris, bondsman. (Marriages of Madison Co.) 1798 - Tyree Martin m. Mounring Jones (his probable cousin); Tyree H. Jones, bondsman; Foster Jones, father of bride. (Vockery & Vockery, MADISON COUNTY KENTUCKY MARRIAGE RECORDS, VOL. 1, 1786-1822 [Richmond, KY: Published by compilers, 1993[, p. 52) Other marriages from above publication, various pages: 1799, 21 Nov - Foster Jones married Margaret Black; Tyree Jones, bondsman. Question: Had Mourning Harris Jones now died, and Foster Jones was marrying the mother-in-law of his son--the above named Margaret Black, the mother of Robert's bride of the same name? One finds instances of this kind of marriage, if one searches long enough. It appears that he did, as later in either May or June 1805, He Foster Jones gave consent as stepfather to the marriage of Isabella Black who married Wm. Jones; Margaret Jones was mother of the bride. Robert Jones was bondsman. Question: Had William Jones been married first to Lucy Harris in Feb 1790, at which marriage Christopher Harris was the bondsman? This may have been Christopher Harris, the son of the older Christopher Harris. 1797 Foster Jones was bondsman for this marriage: Edward Fowler & Lucinda Jones, Foster Jones, bondsman. George Webb Jones, father of bride. Two years later it appears Foster Jones married Margaret Black, widow. 1799 - Foster Jones m. Margaret Black, widow 21 Nov 1799; Tyre Jones, bondsman [his son?] 1805 - He, Foster Jones, gave consent as stepfather of Isabella Black who married Wm Jones, 3 May 1805; return 3 Jun 1805. (Q: Is Wm. Jones widower of Lucy Harris whom he married 1 Feb 1790? Christopher Harris bondsman.) ........ Foster Jones is shown as father of bride at the following marriage: Tyree Martin & Mourning Jones, 21 Feb 1798, Tyree H. Jones, bondsman; Foster Jones, father of bride. Bond returned 22 Feb 1798. (Tyree H. Jones is probably the bride's brother, and Tyree Martin is her probable first cousin. Other Martin bridegrooms during this time period who are probably related to Tyree Martin: Archibald (1789), Christopher (1790), David (1792), James (1788). (Conjecture) *The lineage book cited above shows Elizabeth Jones m in 1803. The groom seems have been to Greenberry Baxter (1778-1857) Nancy Jones (1778-1844) m. 1795 to Richard Sappington (1758-1810), according to Daughters of American Colonists Lineage Book, Vol. 7, page 150, lineage of Mrs. Virginia (Jennie) Pearl McKenzie Edwards, No. 6514. A partial list of Jones marriages of Madison Co., KY : Edward Fowler & Lucinda Jones, .... 1797... Foster Jones, bm., George Webb Jones, father of bride. According to an e-mail correspondent, Foster Jones had a sister named Lucy Jones who married Jesse Maupin. Also John Harris, son of Christopher Harris the elder and his 2nd wife Agnes McCord, married Margaret Maupin dau of John and Frances Dabney Maupin. The correspondent did not name her sources.

Paul, Somewhere I heard that of four witnesses to a legal document, will or deed, that two related to husband, two related to wife. Do you know about this? I'm hoping that William HOLLOWAY relates to husband. We have an old family letter stating that "We are from Adam POOL." If so, this Adam is the only one old enough to be our John's father. John POOL (RS) married Mahulda HOLLOWAY; believe both families are of Southside VA. Thanks, Audrey Here is an example: "POOLE, Adam Deed Book 1, Page 140, Mecklenburg Co, VA Adam POOLE to Isaac HOLMES.cons. 65 pounds.200 acres on lower side of Flatt Creek.adjoining land of the late William POOLE, Junr. /s/ Adam (A) POOLE Witnesses: Robert CUNNINGHAM *William HOLLOWAY Dennis LARK Wm LUCAS Dated: 30 Sept 1765 Recorded 14 Oct 1765 Easter (Esther MANNING, d/o Samuel MANNING), wife of Adam POOLE, released dower."

Looking for information on Morris EVANS listed above. Does anyone have any information on this Evans line going back to Colonial Virginia? Morris had 2 sons that I am aware of: Charles born 1696 and died 1760 Brunswick County and Morris born 1710 and died 1754 in Lunenburg County. These Evans lived in the Brunswick, Mecklenburg, Lunenburg County area and then 4 brothers went ot Wake County, NC. Lick Creek District in the 1770's. These brothers were John, Morris, Gilbert and William. I have traced the line bak to Morris Evans in York County by cannot go beyond finding any documents on him prior to 1735. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Regards Martha

Greetings, I am interested in obtaining the listings of the names dates, etc, of persons who married in Halifax County, Virginia. Can anyone recomend such a source, preferably on a CD ? Thanks in advance, Larry

If you have Scots-Irish in your background, you may find this newsletter of interest to you. (_http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-pages.php_ (http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-pages.php) ) Remove the parens before you cut and paste. Rootsweb does not like *raw* URLs. Remember - before 1922, all Irishmen were Irishmen--at least, in the US censuses!!! My County Down fellow just parachuted into the western Kentucky county of Trigg by 1820. This is when his marriage to a lady born in North Carolina is recorded. He always gave the birthplace as Ireland in the 1850 and 1860 censuses. He may have been one of the literate persons in that Kentucky territory in 1820 as he soon became an election official!!! Nowadays there is Northern Ireland, under the jurisdiction of the British government, and then there is the Republic of Ireland, an independent nation. One belongs to the European Common Market [or whatever it is now called] and the other does not. In the main, Catholic Irish did not come to these shores until the Great Famine in the 1840s and in 1850s. However, like every rule, there are exceptions. If one reads the patents in Cavaliers and Pioneers, one may see a transported person, sometimes not named, as Irishman!!! Perhaps his language was not understandable to the Englishman making the list!!! E.W.Wallace

It might further be added that in those inventories where any of such as tools, beds and rugs and ticking bags, chests, kettles and cookware, chairs, tables, and usually animals, are completely missing one has a clue that the inventory is but partial. Still though, giving consideration to the fact that in most inventories few rooms have NOTHING within, I have found it not difficult to picture the structure, even the items in the dog trot and food in the "cellar". Conversely, as you mentioned, when the inventory is extensive and includes such as pewter, guns, any jewelry, spinning wheels, books, Bibles and armor are present, one may assume that much of the entire inventory is at hand, and efforts to map the house from such lists can be highly rewarding, as I mentioned. ----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Gill To: VA-ROOTS@LISTLVA.LIB.VA.US Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Fw: Inventories You have to careful in doing this. I have seen in personal papers rough drafts of inventories. Separate sheets for various rooms or spaces. When the final fair copy was made for the courts the order of the sheets became irrelevant. That's why you sometimes see cattle listed in among household furniture. Court appointed appraisers sometimes hired others to do the actual appraisements. This is especially true when specialized objects are involved such as the contents of an apothecary shop or a collection of silver. HBG >From: qvarizona <qvarizona@YAHOO.COM> >Reply-To: qvarizona <qvarizona@YAHOO.COM> >To: VA-ROOTS@LISTLVA.LIB.VA.US >Subject: Re: [VAROOTS] Fw: Inventories >Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:06:06 -0700 > >Of course, the men doing inventories would go room to room! Can't wait >to re-read those old inventories I've saved in my files. Thanks, Paul-- >and everyone-- for the info re inventories. >--Joanne > >Paul Drake <pauldrake@CHARTER.NET> wrote: > >....It is interesting that very often by noting the order of the items >listed, one may draw an approximate picture of the interior rooms of the >home.... Thereafter, one will often find that those men went room to room >until they were done, making it easy to see what was in the parlor, the >main "living room", the bedrooms (chambers), and the pantry and accessory >buildings.... > > >--------------------------------- >Yahoo! for Good > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. > >To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at >http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ To subscribe, change options, or unsubscribe please see the instructions at http://listlva.lib.va.us/archives/va-roots.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.22/97 - Release Date: 9/12/2005

I thought the following was an interesting effort to use the inventory to try to understand the people who lived there. I actually have this inventory, but it didn't occur to me to wonder about where those nine indentured servants slept! But note the napkins--these were very civilized folk. Christopher Calthorpe, a second son of an aristocratic family in Norfolk, England, came to Jamestown in 1622 as a teenager. The first mention of Poquoson in Colonial records is contained in a land grant issued to Christopher Calthorpe by a court at Elizabeth City in 1631. He died ca. 1661/62--perhaps in North Carolina--several documents in 1661-62 refer to his taking a trip southward, and there is reference to his land in Perquimons. The house he built in York--on Calthrops Neck Road in Tabb--is still standing and lived in by descendants. From COLONIAL KITCHENS, THEIR FURNISHINGS AND THEIR GARDENS, Fances Phipps, Hawthorne Books, Inc. New York, 1972 p. 58 "in 1662, fifty-six years after the first attempt at Virginia settlement, the inventory of the estate of Christopher Calthorpe, a York County commissioner and member of the House of Burgesses (and as such entitled to be called Captain [actually, by that time he was called Colonel Calthorpe]) was filed. He left to his widow, three daughters, and son supplies of tobacco, corn, beehives, and a well-stocked dairy farm including thirteen milch cows, five heifers, four yearlings, four oxen, six steers, seven calves, three sows, two barrows, and four shoats. Captain Calthorpe's three-room house was divided, according to probate records, into an outer room, a chamber, and a shed (lean-to). Around the fireplace in the shed, listers noted andirons, a rack, a spit and bellows, an iron pot, a gridiron, a frying pan, a dripping pan, two brass kettles, a skimmer (perhaps for cream separation), a mortar and pestle, a grater, pewter places, and three dozen napkins. The chamber furnishings were given as two feather beds, bolsters, sheets, blankets, valence, and curtains. No bedstead as such was listed, although a "couch bed and a couch" were counted, apparently reference to some sort of daybed." p. 95-96 During both centries, with rare exception such as that of William Googe, estate inventories of those who owned land or warehouses or who practiced skilled trades listed possession of indentured servants or slaves. No inventory examined, however, used the phrases "hired man's bed" or "under-eaves bed" to describe the type of low-post bedstead to which those names are given today. The Calthorpe "couch bed" may have referred to a narrow low-post bedstead, but the usual form for these was "truckle bed" or "trundle bed." While servants undoubtedly slept in loft or garret areas or in lean-tos behind the kitchens, no special provision for their comfort was provided. Some, in warmer climates, may have been bedded down in barns. The Calthorpe inventory, for example, listed nine indentured servants, but even with the seventeenth century lack of regard for privacy, these nine plus the five members of the family seem to us an overwhelming number for whom to have found sleeping space in ! a three room house." ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Drake<mailto:pauldrake@charter.net> To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com<mailto:VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 3:38 PM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Re: [VAROOTS] Fw: Inventories It might further be added that in those inventories where any of such as tools, beds and rugs and ticking bags, chests, kettles and cookware, chairs, tables, and usually animals, are completely missing one has a clue that the inventory is but partial. Still though, giving consideration to the fact that in most inventories few rooms have NOTHING within, I have found it not difficult to picture the structure, even the items in the dog trot and food in the "cellar". Conversely, as you mentioned, when the inventory is extensive and includes such as pewter, guns, any jewelry, spinning wheels, books, Bibles and armor are present, one may assume that much of the entire inventory is at hand, and efforts to map the house from such lists can be highly rewarding, as I mentioned.