Greetings, Did the State of Virginia take its own CENSUS between 1867 and 1871 ? If so, where might I be able to view them ? Thanks in advance, Larry ==================================== In HALIFAX COUNTY, Va. seeking Afro-American Brown Byrd Chandler Chappell Lacy Younger.

Doris, thanks for the info. Don't know if it applies or not. I'll have to look into it. I didn't know that these Cralles were in Lunenburg County. One correction, I believe the quote below has skipped a generation. Sarah Montford Jones daughter of Peter Jones and Jane Stokes was the wife of Richard Kenner Cralle. However, knowledge that they were in Lunenburg County is potentially helpfull. Mike > Descendants of David Stokes > > 1 David Stokes > .. +Sarah Montford > .. 2 Jane Stokes b: 24 Mar 1750/51 > ...... +Peter B. Jones b: 17 Nov 1751 in DEEP CREEK, AMELIA > CO.VIRGINIA d: 24 Jan 1815 in LOCUST GROVE, LUNENBURG CO. VA m: > Bet. 1766 - 1796 > ...... 3 Sarah (Sallie) Montfort Jones b: in Lunenburg > County, Virginia d: Aft. 1836 in Afton Grove on Flat Creek, > Lunenburg, VA > .......... +Richard Kenner Crallé, Sr b: 08 Oct 1762 in > Nottoway, VA d: 30 Sep 1830 m: 03 Dec 1795 in Lunenburg Co., VA > ...... 3 Frances T Jones > .......... +LIVING > ...... 3 Lewellyn Jones > .......... +Prudence Ward b: in Nottoway, VA > ...... 3 Mary Polly Jones d: in Locust Grove, Lunenburg > County, VA > .......... +Francis Robertson d: in AL > ...... 3 Branch Jones d: in Locust Grove, Lunenburg > County, VA > .......... +Dorothy Anderson b: in Amelia, VA d: in > Locust Grove, Lunenburg, VA m: 18 Dec 1802 > ...... 3 Elizabeth (Betsy) Jones > .......... +John Taylor > ...... 3 Peter Jones b: in Lunenburg County, VA > .......... +Sally G Bacon m: 02 Jun 1807 > ...... 3 Edward M Jones > ...... 3 Susannah Jones > ...... 3 Ann S. Jones Doris R. Ryan wrote: > I'm jumping in here late, new to list & not knowing what has gone before: > In an acct. of the Stokes family in "Va. Land Records from the Mag. of > Va. Hist. & Biography, the Wm. & Mary Quarterly and Tyler's Quarterly," > David Stokes (1707-1794), s/o John; grandson of Wm, was a justice in > Lunenburg Co.; mar.Sarah Montford and had at least 9 children, > including a daughter, Sally, who mar. Richard Cralle, and had Richard > Kenner Cralle, lawyer; Dr. A. B. Cralle; John L. Cralle; S. J. Cralle; > Martha; and Sally who mar. Colin Stokes. > Hope this helps. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "The Goughs" > <ltcolmichaelj@bellsouth.net> > To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 9:00 PM > Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Looking for information on Thomas > Cralle/Crawley in Lunenburg County > > >> The Cralle/Crawley family are an old Virginia family from the >> Northumberland County area. Thomas Cralle moved to St. Mary's County >> MD where he died. He left land in Lunenburg County to his sons, >> Thomas and Basil. >> >>> "Thomas Crawley WW 12 Mar. 1774, WP 4 Mar. 1775; >>> To sons: Thomas and Basil Crawley, all lands equally that I have >>> in Lunenburg Co., Virginia. If either die without issue the whole >>> to the survivor. >>> To son James Crawley: plantations where I now live and all land >>> in St. Jerome or "Hawley's Mansion." If he die without issue to son >>> Basil. >>> To dau. Judith Crawley, negro slaves: James, Rachell, Nan, >>> Harry, George and Nell, provided she does not marry a Roman >>> (Catholic) or turn on. If she does, she's to get only 3 negros. >>> The other 3 negroes to her 3 brothers James, Thomas and Basil >>> Crawley and remainder of my negroes equally. >>> To son James, when 21 years of age shall pay to my daughter, >>> Judith Crawley, 2000 pounds creop tobacco for 7 years. >>> To 2 sons: Thomas and Basil, to pay my daughter, 50 pounds. >>> To 4 children: Thomas, James, Judith and Basil Crawley, reminder >>> of estate equally. >>> Bennet Biscoe exe., he to get &10.50.0 each year until children >>> are of age. >>> Wit. Sam'l. Theobalds, Thomas Loker, Rosamond Egerton." 40. 507 >> >> >> >> Basil died in Lunenburg County and left his property to Thomas and >> their uncle William Matthew Cralle. >> >>> (Abstracts of) Lunenburg Co. VA, Will Book 3, 1778 - 1791, c 1991 >>> June Banks Evens: >>> >>> Will written 4/7/1786 Will Probated 7/13/1786 >>> >>> (p64) WB p 251: 17 Apr 1786--Will of Basil Crawley (Cralle) of >>> Lunenburg Co: to Uncle William Mathew Crawley of Amelia Co. & >>> testators brother Thomas Crawley of Lunenburg Co, equal division >>> all estate real and personal; names them exors. Wit: Peter Garland, >>> Richard K. Cralle, Ely Walpole. Sig: Basil Cralle Rec: 13 Jul 1786, >>> by sd Wm M Crallw exor; sd Thomas refused to join in. >>> (p66) WB p 257: Inventory/Appraisal estate Basil Crawley (Cralle) >>> decd,: negro man Jacob, mans saddle, pr saddle bags, pr shoes boots, >>> bay mare; value L 97/15/ Rec: 14 Sep 1786. Apprssrs: Lyddal Bacon, >>> Allin Stokes, Spencer Betts >> >> >> I am looking for information about Thomas Cralle. It is possible >> that Thomas and his family (or portions of the family) moved to Mason >> and Bracken Counties Kentucky. If so, he is my missing Cralle link >> as his son Kenner would become my 3rd Great Grandfather. If he >> stayed in Lunenburg, there should be a will. If he left there would >> be land transactions. Does anyone have information to share. >> >> Mike >> >> -- >> Michael J. Gough >> ltcolmichaelj@bellsouth.net >> >> >> >> >> ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== >> The USGenWeb Project http://www.usgenweb.org >> Do Not Post Chain Letters, Virus Warnings, etc. to this list. >> This list is for Genealogy, History and Related Topics. >> >> ============================== >> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the >> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx >> >> > > > > ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== > USGenWeb Archives http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb > Do Not Flame other Members on List. > If you have problems or concerns with list posts, contact the List > Administrator. glh@naxs.com > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > > > -- Michael J. Gough ltcolmichaelj@bellsouth.net

At 09:46 AM 11/21/2005, jmwhitehead@webtv.net wrote: >There is a Buffalo Creek in the central eastern part of Mecklenburg >County which is shown crossing US Rt # 58 and to the north into John H >Kerr Reservoir near the Halifax County line and to the east of >Clarksville. The Buffalo Creek crossing Hwy. 58 is about 5 miles west of Clarksville. It is called Little Buffalo. A couple of miles further west on 58 is Big Buffalo which is now part of Kerr Lake which ends just south of Hwy. 58. Regards, Lloyd

Carol: Polecat CreeK: Begins In eastern Halifax County , Meadsville District, near the intersection of US Rte # 360 (Mountain Rd) and State Rd # 665 (Nunnley's Bridge Rd) and meanders NE to VA # 57 (formerly Rt #832) where it crosses NE to the Banister River (or Lake). This is 3-4miles west of the Town of Halifax. ( And a small or Little Polecat Creek also runs into the larger one near VA # 57-there are 2 bridges near each other); There is a Buffalo Creek in the central eastern part of Mecklenburg County which is shown crossing US Rt # 58 and to the north into John H Kerr Reservoir near the Halifax County line and to the east of Clarksville. The VDOT (VA Dept of Transportation) maps are free and can be found for local areas at their HQ's in the different places.

You who asked me about Greenbrier, WV, etc., please send the question again; I inadvertently deleted it. Sorry 'bout that. :-) Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> 931-484-9129

I am probably a day or so late, since I get the digest, but, about the creeks.....check out the Virginia Library online, and search in deeds and tax records, and somewhere there were maps showing how these creeks played parts of boundaries for properties and in many cases were the "roads". I would start in the index, which has loads of leads on everything from war service to bonds of matrimony to bonds of debt. There is also a link to the NC Library for cross boundary searching. Good luck! Carole Jordan (nee Chandler) -- Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org) ---------- Original Message ----------- From: VA-SOUTHSIDE-D-request@rootsweb.com To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-D@rootsweb.com Sent: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 03:00:22 -0700 Subject: VA-SOUTHSIDE-D Digest V05 #200 > VA-SOUTHSIDE-D Digest Volume 05 : Issue 200 > > Today's Topics: > #1 history lesson ["Alice Sanders" <sanders922@msn.co] > #2 history AND research ["Paul Drake" <pauldrake@charter.ne] > #3 Creek locations ["Carol" <carol60@mindspring.com>] > #4 Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] history AND r ["Caroline McCall" <cvmccall@nc.rr.] > #5 Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Creek locatio [Cleonharris@aol.com] > #6 Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] history AND r ["Paul Drake" <pauldrake@charter.ne] > #7 Re: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] history AND r ["Paul Drake" <pauldrake@charter.ne] > > Administrivia: > To unsubscribe from VA-SOUTHSIDE-D, send a message to > VA-SOUTHSIDE-D-request@rootsweb.com > that contains in the body of the message the command > unsubscribe > and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your > software requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. > > ______________________________ ------- End of Original Message -------

To find any geographical feature that still has the same name on maps, I recommend going to _http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=130:1:9394506915982914316_ (http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnispublic/f?p=130:1:9394506915982914316) You can enter the name of the feature and its state and county and find out its latitude and longitude. You can also select from a variety of maps that will show the feature. Charles

I should have added, Caroline, that virtually all travelers moving with families then carried corn meal, flour made of any of the grains, and lard, those all used for cooking and making biscuits and breads along the way.

Hi Paul... You hit on something here, which leads me to a question. For months I've been looking for websites or books that cover topics such as: what the "road" from Gloucester, VA to Granville Co., NC was like in 1800 - did the travellers simply pull over for the night if they didn't have friends or family along the way? what did they eat? what was the typical wagon/buggy used for moving a family? how long was the trip? what were some of the motives for leaving Gloucester - religion? land? work? I'd like to include this in my genealogy but can't find a good reference; most tend to deal with New England or the westward migration. I know this sounds like I haven't looked very hard, but I really have. Any suggestions? Thanks! Caroline ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Drake" <pauldrake@charter.net> To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 12:51 PM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] history AND research > Genealogy is history, nothing more, nothing less; history of a family, a group of families, an area, and their country. There is NO way - NONE - to adequately research the lives of your people without knowing of the times in which they lived. > > Why? Because we are the sum total product of our genetics AND of the place and time of those who went before. > > Paul Drake JD > Genealogist & Author > <www.DrakesBooks.com> > 931-484-9129 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Alice Sanders > To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 9:51 AM > Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] history lesson > > > Thank you Paul for the history lesson on flags. It is amazing what you > learn when you start the genealogy journey. > The historical knowledge is essential in order to do genealogy. Whether > we like it or not, it happened, and it was > part and parcel of our ancestor's lives. > > > ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== > Problems Subscribing or Unsubscribing ? Contact: > G. Lee Hearl List Adm. at: glh@naxs.com > Hosted by Rootsweb http://www.rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005 > > > > ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== > Problems Subscribing or Unsubscribing ? Contact: > G. Lee Hearl List Adm. at: glh@naxs.com > Hosted by Rootsweb http://www.rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx > >

Hi, Caroline. Your questions are excellent. Without such information as that you seek, your ancestors are mere names and dates and are about as interesting as watching cats take a nap. I would suggest that you start by reading whatever county histories there may be for the areas of both Gloucester and Granville. Those will make you comfortable with more detailed studies of the lives of the folks at those places in those times, and will lead you to further reading through the bibliographies to be found there. Below, I have interlineated your words with some BRIEF explanations and suspect that many on this fine list will add to my comments. (Craig, Lee, have a suggestion for her?) such as: what the "road" from Gloucester, VA to Granville Co., NC was like in 1800 **** it was dirt, muddy in winter and incredibly dusty in the summer. It was very rough, since there was no govt. with the money or the inclination to make improvements and paving was yet 50 years in the future. - did the travellers simply pull over for the night if they didn't have friends or family along the way? **** Yep, and if they had any money they stayed at inns along the way. They likely went about 10 miles a day if they had their family with them. what did they eat? ***Bread carried in hard crusted loaves, crackers, plenty of dried meats, fruits and vegetables, again usually those that could be dried, and such as roasted corn, acorns, and nuts as snacks. what was the typical wagon/buggy used for moving a family? **** almost NO buggies. They had wagons and carts or moved on foot. The reason? the roads were as described and usually very narrow, since - again - there was no street or highway dept. to render those highways anything else. how long was the trip? *** Just this afternoon I read another diary relating that in 1797 the trip from Knoxville TN to what is now Crab Orchard Gap (a distance of about 70 miles) took them 11 days in a wagon pulled by Oxen. My own ancestor of PA lineage moved from Perry County PA to Delaware County OH in 1830. They made about 9 miles a day in their 2 wagons drawn by horses. what were some of the motives for leaving Gloucester - religion? ***No telling; land? work? *** No telling; look into what they did immediately after they arrived - -take up land at once? buy land? get a patent? join the church at once?? Their motives were almost surely NOT to find work, since available employment in those times was very often limited to opportunities only as a laborer, a farm hand, or none atall. I'd like to include this in my genealogy but can't find a good reference; most tend to deal with New England or the westward migration. **** I suppose that any VA source that spoke of movements to NC would mention the need for land, the desire to have their own "new" farm, and the desire to be other than a tenant farmer for their kinfolks. Again, find and read the local histories first; the state histories are too broad for your questions for now. *** I know you have worked hard; your questions reveal that effort. I know this sounds like I haven't looked very hard, but I really have. Any suggestions? Thanks! Caroline

Dear list Does anyone know where these creeks are?? Polecat Creek in Halifax Co Bluewing & Stoney Creeks in Meck. Co Great Buffalo Creek Many Thanks for any help Carol

Genealogy is history, nothing more, nothing less; history of a family, a group of families, an area, and their country. There is NO way - NONE - to adequately research the lives of your people without knowing of the times in which they lived. Why? Because we are the sum total product of our genetics AND of the place and time of those who went before. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> 931-484-9129 ----- Original Message ----- From: Alice Sanders To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 9:51 AM Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] history lesson Thank you Paul for the history lesson on flags. It is amazing what you learn when you start the genealogy journey. The historical knowledge is essential in order to do genealogy. Whether we like it or not, it happened, and it was part and parcel of our ancestor's lives. ==== VA-SOUTHSIDE Mailing List ==== Problems Subscribing or Unsubscribing ? Contact: G. Lee Hearl List Adm. at: glh@naxs.com Hosted by Rootsweb http://www.rootsweb.com ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005

Thank you Paul for the history lesson on flags. It is amazing what you learn when you start the genealogy journey. The historical knowledge is essential in order to do genealogy. Whether we like it or not, it happened, and it was part and parcel of our ancestor's lives.

I have just completed reading a new book entitled: The First Emancipator: The Forgotten Story of Robert Carter, the Founding Father Who Freed His Slaves" by Andrew Levy (2005) Random House publishers. Robert Carter III manumitted 453 slaves after the Revolutionary War. This book gives the courthouses where the individual papers were filed and also the original Deed of Gift. These are located in the Northern Neck counties. The book names many ordinary people who were rent collectors, ministers, tutors and also lightly mentions family members. The main gift of this book is that it gives books of deed citations in which anyone seeking their slave family documents. Sorry I have not provided more detailed information regarding this book but I do suggest it as a good read and the notes are good for further research sources. Tree Mother "She is insane, of course. The family history has become a mania for her." Hercule Poirot

It was not my intention to commence any discussion of the pros and cons of the Civil War; that war is long in the past. It was my intention to answer questions, one from this fine website, as to the true history of the banners, and to display the photo of the AR Confederate Veterans parade of 1911 in which there were NO battle flags to be seen. For that parade, see my website - www.DrakesBooks.com The battle flag was never a National flag of the Confederacy, and the people of the Old South - including my VA and NC ancestors and immediate family - did not ever use it as such. It was, instead, employed and designed to be a rallying point for men in actual combat because it was so very visible even through the smoke and haze of the battlefield. In the din of battle men become confused, turned around, and often lost within the foray. So it is that all men in all wars have had such a place of rally to which they might go. The flag which represented the Southern nation varied slightly, and there were three, the 1st - "Stars and Bars", the second "Stars and Bars revised", and the third National flag (a St. Andrews Cross on a field of white) ordained by the legislature very near the end of the war. Of those, the "Stars and Bars" was the most widely displayed by far, and it was the symbol of the Confederate States and known by all citizens and soldiers alike to be that. Unfortunately, though the battle flag was readily visible and so became a well-known rallying point for men engaged in actual combat, that once honorable symbol was seized upon for use by the Ku Klux Klan, and thus became a symbol of hate. It is that flag that is despised by many in our society, and in my view, since it never was displayed by MY Southern people other than in combat, it should not now be treated as though it did. Where are my loyalties? I am a charter member and past Commander of our "Sons of Confederate Veterans" (SCV) Post, and hold the combat medal of that organization for my own military service. Our post, as with many across the nation, adopted the "Stars and Bars" as our symbol, and we do not display the Battle flag without explanation as given here. Paul For those who would like to know more and see the flags, take a look at this URL http://worldatlas.com/webimage/flags/usa/confed.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Sharon Disbennett To: OHPICKAW-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:50 PM Subject: [OHPICKAW] Southern "RedNecks" I am from the south; and I take offense in the comment that " rednecks and rabble rousers" thrust that battle symbol in the face of Afro-Americans and others sensitive to the evils that misunderstanding of the Southern cause brought about." Where I am from, an equal amount of "Afro-Americans also display this flag as part of our heritage. There is a new t-shirt that some of us have decided to start wearing for just this reason. It has the "Battle Flag" (as you call it ) on it with the simple words "If this flag offends you, You need a history lesson". I suppose the fact that we say "Ya'll" also offends you! ==== OHPICKAW Mailing List ==== OHGenWeb Pickaway County, Ohio Website: http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohpickaw/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.3/173 - Release Date: 11/16/2005

To Listers-- While reading the "Wills and Administrations of Accomack County, Virginia -1663 to1800" noticed a will for an Arthur Upshur, prob. 30 March 1784, in which he leaves to "nephew Arthur Upshur, son of my brother John, 370 A. in the County of Lunenburg called the Quarter planta. purchased of Col. Garland." Hope this helps someone. Lynda

Hi all... There's an interesting presentation of the various flags used by the Confederacy at www.usflag.org/history/confederatestarsandbars.html. Caroline McCall

To Paul and Others: We will Not get into a discussion about the pros and cons of the Civil War on this list. Those who participate on list run the risk of being removed. The war is over and settled. Let it lie. Thank You, List Admistrator, G. Lee Hearl Authentic Appalachian Storyteller Abingdon, Va.

It was not nor will it ever be my intention to open ANY debate about the Civil War, its motivations, causes, results and places in history. For those who feel my comments inflammatory, I am sorry. Believing that all of history has a place in genealogy, it was my intention to relate to those who may be unaware of the fact that the flag of the Confederate States was not what we know as the battle flag, and those who were citizens of the CSA well knew that. There my comments ended, and there should those end. Paul

I have been asked about and have seen several discussions about why some people in the "South" insist on defiantly displaying "the Confederate Flag". In short, the South (whatever that is) doesn't display it !! What you have been seeing is the "Battle Flag", a banner seen in the heat of battle upon which troops might rally, which banner was NEVER the flag of the Confederate Nation, and did not represent the citizens of the Southern States. Only in the last half of the 20th Century have rednecks and rabble rousers thrust that battle symbol - the St. Andrews Cross standing alone - in the face of Afro-Americans and others sensitive to the evils that misunderstanding of the Southern cause brought about. Unless I am mistaken, I believe that there are no photos of Lee, Davis, or any other high ranking Southerners with the Battle Flag. As witness thereto, at my website I have posted a photo of a 1911 Little Rock, AR parade of the United Confederate Veterans (UCV). Look at it closely; there are NO battle flags displayed by anyone at that event, yet no one could credit their earlier loyalty to the South. You will there find what the South considered its flag alongside the Stars and Stripes of the U.S., the battle flag being conspicuous in its absence. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> 931-484-9129