on 5/16/01 5:10 PM, KDale60909@aol.com at KDale60909@aol.com wrote: > They certainly were ligious, weren't they? I often smile to myself when I > hear someone talk about how Americans are "becoming" litigious. I suppose the > major difference is that our colonial ancestors were busily suing each > other--while our peers are suing large corporations--though neighbors are by > no means exempt!>> I think it was their monthly entertainment, only they didn't have radio and television. It was the ultimate Reality show. > > But some of the old court cases merely confuse me. So a man sold a piece of > land left to his son by a grandfather before the son was of age---why was the > man's NEIGHBOR suing him over that? And yes, it did occur to me that the > neighbor bringing the suit might have>> Son selling part of neighbor's property? Boundary dispute? These could be other reasons. CMK

In a message dated 05/16/2001 2:09:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time, jleehunt1@aol.com writes: > but I am assuming that the > most litigious beings on the earth (ie , colonial Virginians), simply > brought > otherwise unsettled "traffic" matters to trial, > They certainly were ligious, weren't they? I often smile to myself when I hear someone talk about how Americans are "becoming" litigious. I suppose the major difference is that our colonial ancestors were busily suing each other--while our peers are suing large corporations--though neighbors are by no means exempt! But some of the old court cases merely confuse me. So a man sold a piece of land left to his son by a grandfather before the son was of age---why was the man's NEIGHBOR suing him over that? And yes, it did occur to me that the neighbor bringing the suit might have been a relative protecting the boy's interest--but no evidence of that. Unfortunately, I never found the resolution of the case--just the neighbor buying the same piece of land in questions ten years later! (method in his madness?) Karen Dale Larkspur CO

Janet: Considering that my father, born 1911, now passed, never took a drivers' test, I assume the answer to your question about being tested and licensed in the old days is a big fat NO. More interesting, courting habits of yesterday. At Duke University in the Perkins Library are the "Richard Barnes Papers". This, dear friends, is an 18th century soap opera. While I have the copies, I am afraid to post or publish them for fear of copywright infringements. Richard Barnes lived in Richmond County, VA. Yes, these Virginians loved to sue each other. The papers are full of horse races, fixed bets, scandalous love affairs, duels, charges of slander and libel, elopements, entrapments, fist fights, nasty father-son episodes, nasty mother-daughter episodes, nasty father-daughter episodes, serious name-calling, etc. Truly great reading. My favorite line is that father intercepted a plot by his daughter to run off with a man he did not approve of, locked her in the cellar and "set her to churning butter." I guess this gave her something to think on, as in her ESCAPE. She was rescued by her brother and rowed across the Chesapeake Bay, and upon reaching the other side was wed at the home of her uncle (father's brother, Abraham Barnes, of St. Mary's county, MD), and got married to her young soldier anyway. These rebellious siblings were quickly disinherited, at least for a while. It is truly great material. It should be published. Is this stuff copywrighted? It should not lanquish at Perkins library unread. Regards, Craig Kilby

If material is copyrighted, but the owner of the material does not renew the copyright at a certain interval, then the material can be considered to be in public domain. Here's a good website for copyright laws.... http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/302.html

--part1_40.b9e11a8.28343829_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, It is difficult to say how much I really enjoyed all of the wonderful stories about travelling and courting and exaggerating -- 400 lb cows,etc. I have TWO questions and will do separate queries. The first stems from a dinner table conversation with my 2 teens and a tween (ie, 12), and (picture eyes rolling and it IS mothers days commiseration) I read some of the posts (which I have strung together with my Chesapeake time mariner travelling posts). They were my captives: I read the one post that the fellow had stayed courting so long that he had to drive home in the dark fast, and wrecked the new family carriage. My 17 year old son's first smiling question was "did he get a ticket", In the spirit of finally getting him interested I said, Um..I don't think that things were that far along at the time, they mostly just sued each other in court, but since this is a family issue (ie damage of expensive possession), but I imagine he got punished to all get out. And my son (who had not heard the whole story), said...bet he didn't ever get to go that far again. From the post, he was correct. So I now venture into an area I know, regarding whether any legal action would have resulted from the case, nothing about, but I am assuming that the most litigious beings on the earth (ie , colonial Virginians), simply brought otherwise unsettled "traffic" matters to trial, which wouldn't have probably happened in this case because it was family...What I also told my kids was I didn't think there was any real "local rulemaking" about these things, etc....but I could be wrong.....again. FYI, for all of you out there with "descendants" in the early stages of driving or wannabees (teens or tweens --10-12), this actually resulted in a really good conversation, because..um...I mentioned courting and they said dating...and I got to tell them about two of their ancestor couples who were in their teens (ie, under 18 both, asssuming the "primary documentation" is correct)...afterwards I banged my head against the wall and thought how stupid I was. But actually, they'd already known about this. I'm not ready to be a grandmother <vbg> So I guess my question, on behalf of my descendants, and this is really a larger question...were there local or state laws passed about the driving issues. My impression is that ALOT of people, both passengers and pedestrians, were killed or injured in carriage accidents on country roads and in towns/cities. My best to you all. Janet (Baugh) Hunter --part1_40.b9e11a8.28343829_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L-request@rootsweb.com> Received: from rly-xd01.mx.aol.com (rly-xd01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.166]) by air-xd02.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:07:51 2000 Received: from lists5.rootsweb.com (lists5.rootsweb.com [63.92.80.123]) by rly-xd01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:07:22 2000 Received: (from slist@localhost) by lists5.rootsweb.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f3MB75B28757; Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:07:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 04:07:05 -0700 X-Original-Sender: images@ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 22 04:07:00 2001 Message-ID: <003001c0cb35$48f07fc0$2e7abfa8@images> From: "Matz" <images@ix.netcom.com> Old-To: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 07:05:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Subject: [VA-SOUTHSIDE-L] Phillips.Mason Resent-Message-ID: <QntE0.A.xAH.Xtr46@lists5.rootsweb.com> To: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/11919 X-Loop: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: VA-SOUTHSIDE-L-request@rootsweb.com Dear List Members: Does anyon

Hello Everyone. I am a new subscriber to Va-Southside and am hoping someone can help me. I have been searching for ancestors of Thomas Green and Amy Keesee for some time now. In my search I ran across a Virginia Gazette newspaper article from 1777 where it states that a Thomas Green from Mecklenburg was hung on the gallows for murder outside of Williamsburg. Since this was about the time little Thomas's father was supposed to have died, I sent for a copy of the article but it had no more information that the LVA had posted. My question is, does anyone know how or where I could find information (court records or whatever) that might tell more about who this Thomas Green was and who he murdered, etc.? I live in metro Atlanta and don't expect to visit Virginia anytime soon. Is there any way I could order copies of the court records and how would I know which records to order since I don't know when this all happened or when the trial was other than prior to July 9th, 1777? I've also been trying to find information on George Green and Mary Justice. The facts tend to lean toward their being littleThomas's parents rather than the executed Thomas. Mary's brother, Simeon, was married to Elizabeth Turley and according to my grandmother, Thomas (Amy Keesee's husband) was raised by a man named Turley. There must be a connection there. Also, I noted that a George Green and a Thomas Green came over on the same ship at the same time and prior to their being mentioned in any of the Pittsylvania, Halifax or Mecklenburg County records, so I think there is a good chance that they were brothers and lived near each other. I have found records of George purchasing land in Halifax County and Thomas is mentioned in a number of Halifax court records as supervising the construction of county owned structures. I believe that the Halifax Thomas and the Mecklenburg Thomas are the same person since Meck. was formed from the east end of Halifax and parts of Lunenburg about the same time as all of this was happening. Does anyone have any clues? Any help would be gratefully appreciated. Betsy Groh betsy.groh@theaustin.com

From: <A HREF="mailto:Brobpat">Brobpat</A> To: <A HREF="mailto:EUZELIA">EUZELIA</A> Could you please tell me where I might obtain a copy of the JOURNALS AND LETTERS OF FRANCIS ASBURY....either for purchase or (preferably) on interlibrary loan? Bob

Searching for other Surname Owen(s) researcher in Isle of Wight and Newport Parish VA. and Edgecombe Co. NC. I am searching for Elisha Owen(s) and Family in Edgecombe Co. NC in the late 1700's. They lived on the border of Edgecombe Co. and Pitt Co. NC. They lived a few miles north of the town of Fountain NC. Elisha Owens and his wife Amey had the following children: John Owens Etheldred Owens Robert Owens Nancy Owens Alpheus Owens Elisha Owens Jr. It is believed that Elisha Owen(s) descended from John Owen who lived in the area of Newport Parish VA. It is believed that John Owen sold his land in Newport VA to Elias Owens his son in 1789 and moved to Edgecombe Co. NC by 1790. The descendents of John Owen and his wife Sarah Duck are though to be: Elias Owens Elisha Owens William Owens Dempsey Owens John Owens Jr. Ethledred Owens Would appreciate sharing information with other Owen(s) Researchers William Owens

> I've sent transcripts and abstracts of all of these documents to Ron Jones to be forwarded to the Mecklenburg site administrator for uploading. Craig, All of the Matthew JACKSON files have been uploaded to the Mecklenburg archives as well as the Ambrose JONES, Sr. will and estate papers. The latter has also been uploaded to the Granville Co., NC archives. Thanks again for sharing these records with us. Additional JONES wills should soon be in place in the Mecklenburg archives. Ron

Questions........: > .... In Will Book "S" (Superior Court Wills) is recorded the will of Matthew > Jackson, though it does not say when proved or by whom (pp. 1-2). Are the documents in that volume in chronological order??? If so, an approximation of the date and the precise "term of court" should be ascertainable. > this (p. 3) is an appraisement of only the slaves and a cotton machine. > Follwing this (p. 4) is a list of who bought how much of the land (very > unusual but a great find) and who bought the slaves and who bought the > cotton machine. These are presented by Francis Jackson, EXECUTOR. > > The rest of the normal estate items are recorded in the regualr will books > (further inventories, accounts of estate, account of sales--books 6 and 7). > These are presented by Cavil Jackson, ADMINISTRATOR. Unless the Cavil Jackson documents/pleadings, etc., dealt with property in a "foreign" jurisdiction - another county - and an ancillary administration required by that foreign property, then for reasons apparently no longer extant, there was, as you have guessed, a legal failure of the will, a resignation or death or incapacitation of the executor, another will discovered, or perhaps litigation which MIGHT have or DID then result in a setting aside of the will. Not to be overlooked is the possibility that Cavil was named to administer some particular later discovered assets of the estate while the executor continued in the tasks designated for him in the original will. Short of a total exam of all the courts' order and minutes in that time frame, I do not think any positive conclusion answer may be made. Who and WHAT was Lucretia > Meldrum? I simply can not tell from this series of facts and findings. Paul > > Craig

on 5/15/01 9:40 PM, Paul Drake at martee@citlink.net wrote: > While I know nothing of Mecklenburg Co, if it is typical, the > record books - particularly deeds, mortgages/deeds of trust, liens, > and all other land instruments - were FIRST designated > chronologically as A, B, C, ......S, T, U, etc., Paul: I am sorry. I did not explain the situation very well. My question is not really about which book I found all this in, but that it went to court and the odd terms of the will. All of the will books in Mecklenburg are numbered, starting with "1". And remain numbered (2, 3, 4, etc) well past the 1810 time frame I working in. When I found the will of Matthew Jackson in the "Index to Wills", it said "Will Book S". I thought, then, OK, that's here somewhere, but it wasn't. I asked the clerks where the book was. They said there was no such thing as a "Will Book S". Even though I showed them the typed index to wills which clearly said Book "S", they said no. They suggested I look in one of the "numbered" books for the right time frame. And I did, but I knew this was wrong, and I began rooting around a bit more. As it turned out, there IS a SEPARATE book of wills like any other book of wills that was on the bottom of a row of early will books. This was divided into three categories: CC-#1; CC-#2; and S. This is where I found the will, and apparently this book is for wills that went to Circuit Court or Superior Court (which is what the book tabs were titled--Circuit Court Wills #1, Circuit Wills #2, and Superior Court Wills, dubbed #1 on the index). I told the staff about it for future reference, in case any one else should ever ask. In Will Book "S" (Superior Court Wills) is recorded the will of Matthew Jackson, though it does not say when proved or by whom (pp. 1-2). Following this (p. 3) is an appraisement of only the slaves and a cotton machine. Follwing this (p. 4) is a list of who bought how much of the land (very unusual but a great find) and who bought the slaves and who bought the cotton machine. These are presented by Francis Jackson, EXECUTOR. The rest of the normal estate items are recorded in the regualr will books (further inventories, accounts of estate, account of sales--books 6 and 7). These are presented by Cavil Jackson, ADMINISTRATOR. I've sent transcripts and abstracts of all of these documents to Ron Jones to be forwarded to the Mecklenburg site administrator for uploading. I can send them to anyone else who has an interest in them. Paul, again sorry for not explaining this better. Who and WHAT was Lucretia Meldrum? Craig

While I know nothing of Mecklenburg Co, if it is typical, the record books - particularly deeds, mortgages/deeds of trust, liens, and all other land instruments - were FIRST designated chronologically as A, B, C, ......S, T, U, etc., rather than with arabic numbers or Roman numerals. As the population increased, that practice was continued in some places even completely through the alphabet, and then continued with "AA", "BB" etc. I have seen courthouses with the books numbered as far as "OO" and perhaps even further. In the last years of the 19th century, it was decided that beyond the double letters, it became confusing to the average courthouse user, so arabic numbers were almost universally adopted. As to what you describe as "will books" having been designated by the initials of the courts whose orders are there contained, I suspect that in the "CC" volume, for example, you are seeing "journal", "order" or "minute" books which frequently addressed wills and administrations, but were not used for the recording or transcribing of deeds and other land instruments, even though that same courts probably did - and very frequently - render orders and "minutes" and sign "entries" concerning land, and record those activities in the orders or minutes, etc. I can not speculate re the wives, etc., and the failures to mention this or that person, however if I could see ALL the doucmnets,. I would hazard a guess, especially those revealing dates, witnesses and conditions. Good luck Paul

Dear Listers: I have an interesting will and could use the help of some of our legal experts, like Paul Drake, for this one. It is the will of Matthew Jackson, written on 11 June 1808 and his estate account begins in February 1809. It is recorded in Will Book S-1, p. 1. What is will book "S"? That's what I asked the Mecklenburg County circuit clerk. They didn't know. But that was what was on the index to wills. With a little digging around, I discovered another will book broken into three parts: CC-1, CC-2, and S. CC - Circuit Court and S = Superior Court. So this will apparently went to court and once we read its terms, we can but guess why. It leaves 150 acres of land, a new house to be built by six of his sons, slaves and specific stock and household goods, and even "the bed I now lie in" to one Lucretia Meldrum, and upon her death to her daughter Claricy Meldrum. Lucretia is to hold this land "until her death or marriage" and "during her WIDOWHOOD". The problem with this is, first, Matthew Jackson was the husband of Elizabeth Avary. This is proved by the will of Elizabeth's father, George Avary, proved in Brunswick County in 1801, and to which Mathew Jackson was exectuor. Jackson, and I presume his wife Elizabeth Avary, had moved to Mecklenburg from Amelia in 1771, per a deed there from Joseph Crowder and Mary his wife to Mathew Jackson. Jackson added to this in many subsequent purchases. Some of the later papers are filed in the normal will books by Cavil Jackson (son) ADMINSTRATOR, and others in the "S" book by Frances Jackson, the EXECUTOR. (Sons Frances and Burwell had been named original executors). This may mean that son Cavil was administrator with the will annexed IF Burwell had died or otherwise refused the burden. Am I correct to assume (always a risky proposition) that: (1) Wife Elizabeth had died, and he "shacked up" with this Lucretia Meldrum woman and a child by her, Claricy? (2) There ought to be a really juicy chancery court suit about this? (supposedly sent to Richmond to the LOV--so many of these records are being processed for the internet now, they are hard to view at the moment) (3) Just what did these terms mean at this time? Really stumped and curious on this one. I have more Jackson data. The paragraph in the will directing his six sons to build this woman a new house reads: "I also direct that the said Lucretia Meldrum is to live in the house I now live in until my sons Cavel, Francis, Burwell, Bins, Nathaniel & Beckley bearing an equal proportion shall build the said Lucretia Meldrum a dwelling house on the above mentioned land sixteen feet square in a workman like manner which if either of the above mentioned shall fail to bear their proportionate part of building the said house my will is they shall receive no part or shear of my estate." It is also names daughter Talithicuma (she had married Drury Turner in 1802, but he is not mentioned nor is Talithicum given a surname in the will) who is to have no further part of his estate, and one Nancy Thompson, likewise. (The record is not clear if Nancy Jackson who m. James Mins Thompson was a daughter of Matthew or of a reputed son of Matthew, Fleming Jackson). Also named is a son Mabry Jackson. Witnessed by: Churchwell Curtis, Jr. John T. Allen This e-mail is I suppose two-fold. One a discussion of the Jackson family and the other a question of the legalities surrounding this will. HELP! NB: Some of the data on the children of Matthew was sent to be my the late Donnadean Depew,who was a very good researcher). She stated that Matthew Jackson was a son of Williams (with an "s) and Anne Dunevant of Amelia. I have no documentation for this statement. Craig Kilby

Bebe, >>My husband grew up on a farm...he says if you start carrying a calf the day it is born and continue everyday then you can carry the cow! Can't prove it by me! Bebe << My ggrandpa, Joseph Heral (Hearl) was an exceptionally strong man. One day he walked over to the river bottom to check on his cattle and found a steer which had eaten "stagger weed", a plant poisonous to cattle, and the steer which weighed about 400 to 500 pounds, could not walk.. he got it on his back and shoulders and carried it up a long steep hill to a barn where he planned to treat it for the poison.. When he reached the barn he dumped the steer off his back and when it hit the ground two of its legs broke and he had to kill it anyway.. Sometime later he was at a farm down the road from his place and two men trying to pick a 300 pound hog up an put it over a fence and they were unable to do it.. Joe told them he could throw that hog over the fence by himself! He had already gotten on his horse to go home but he got off and climbed into the hog pen, picked the hog up, threw it over the fence and fell backward and died of a brain hemmorage.. He was 56 years old. Lesson: Don't go around picking up cows and hogs because either they or you will be killed! True Stories....... G. Lee Hearl Authentic Appalachian Storyteller Abingdon, Va.

My husband grew up on a farm...he says if you start carrying a calf the day it is born and continue everyday then you can carry the cow! Can't prove it by me! Bebe

Peter Jefferson, Thomas's dad, helped survey the dividing line between Va. & NC (well after Byrd). Peter could set two 1,000 lbs. hogsheads of tobacco upright at the same time, slept in hollow trees and ate raw game...when necessary. Men were pretty tough back then so bet they would walk or ride a fair distance at the rumor of a pretty lassie! Bebe

Lord have Mercy, Linda; I suspect that you are in better shape than any of us out here !!!!!!!!! :) :) My father and gfather, who each spent a lifetime working and raising horses, felt strongly that a horse and a man comfortably walk at the same speed. Paul >

Just had to add that at a healthy jog, I used to walk over 10 miles during a day (and worked full time). I happen to live on a nice neck of a lake which offers hiking trails. I've wondered about the length that a healthy horse can make in one day if I could make a jog from my house, through this 10 mile trail, and back with time to fix supper for my daughter. Seems I could out walk a healthy horse during my better days?? BTW, after this healthy jog, I then made a healthly supper for my daughter, cleaned house, etc., and went to bed, only to get up the next day for another full days work, a sometime 10 mile jog, supper, etc. Surely these 18th century horses were in better shape than single mothers of the 20th century. Just a note. Linda Linda

I live within five miles of the Yadkin River in central NC, and there sure are many, many acres of "forested" land now. We have huge oaks and other beautiful hardwood trees. Winston Salem, current Forsyth Co., was originally settled by Moravians who came down the Wagon Road from Pa. in 1753/old Rowan area. Their houses were 1/2 timbered, some still remaining in Old Salem. Bebe Fox in NC

To All: The person who wrote the story about the Great Wagon Road talks about the trees and bushes along the road brushing or scraping the wagons and ox carts as they came down the Valley of Va. and over the Blue Ridge Mountain on the way to Carolina.. The Indians used to burn the Shenandoah Valley to make grazing for Elk and Buffalo because that was part of their hunting grounds... By 1750 when people were moving down the valley and over the Blue Ridge to Carolina most of the land along the Wagon Road had been settled and cleared for farming..so it appears that the writers description of the roadside may not be correct! As many wagons as people had in those days, it would seem improbable that bushes were hanging out over the roads and giant trees all along it.. Much of the road was probably lined by rail and brush fences to keep cattle and horses in the pastures..and to keep stray animals out of the corn, wheat and other crops.. The British Army had built many roads for the transportaion of supplies during the French and Indian Wars.. These would have been quite a bit wider than a bridal path! So, go figure and imagine what it might have been like.. It was probably much different than we might think! G. Lee Hearl Authentic Appalachian Storyteller Abingdon, Va.