There seem to be a number of researchers who have misinterpreted early Virginia birth records in the way Mr. Grant has. A few published abstracts have done that. I would say unless he has additional evidence to the contrary, the record is only showing that Richard Jordan Wright is the owner of those slaves, NOT their father. The headings for the Virginia birth registers (beginning in 1853) are (with an example from Prince William): Date of birth: June 1853. Name of child: Louisa, White / Colored: If colored whether Free or Slave: S[lave] Male or Female: Female. Born alive or dead: A[live] Place of birth: Prince William County. Father's name (if child be free and born in wedlock) or name of owner (if child be born a slave): Wm. J. Weir. Father's occupation: [blank] Father's residence: [blank] Mother: Lucy Fields (slave). [Note: Since the mother has a surname, her status is included so there is no doubt she is a slave] How many at a birth? 1. Informant: Wm. J. Weir, owner. Notice that the register does not ask for the father's name if the child is a slave or is born out of wedlock. Donald L. Wilson, Virginiana Librarian, Ruth E. Lloyd Information Center for Genealogy and Local History (RELIC), Prince William Public Library System, Bull Run Regional Library, 8051 Ashton Avenue, Manassas, VA 20110-2892 703-792-4540 www.pwcgov.org/government/dept/library/RELIC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:20:22 -0700 From: "Robert N. Grant" <rngrant@grantandgordon.com> Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Come On Now... To: va-northern-neck@rootsweb.com Craig, Ihope this is responsive to your question. I have not tried to do this on the Northern Neck tree on Ancestry.com, but I had one of the problems of presentation that you refer to in one Wright family in Rockbridge County. 1858 (year of death) Richard Jordan Wright of Rockbridge County, VA, (place of death) was the son of 1804 Jordan Wright of Amherst County, VA, and grandson of 1814/17 Parmenos Wright of Nelson County, VA. 1858 Richard Jordan Wright had a number of female slaves by whom he had children. The birth records list him as the father and the female slave as the mother. In the presentation for 1858 Richard's family in the descendants chart, I listed each female slave as if she were a wife, indicated her slave status, and then listed the children under that wife's name. Since there were no marriage dates, I listed the slaves in order based on who had the earliest child. The concept was to treat the slave mother as if she were a spouse, even thoughno marriage occurred, and to treat the children as descendants, even though held by the father as slaves. The presentation appeared as set forth below (and hopefully the tabbling will work properly): In any event, that was my approach in this case. Best wishes, Robert N. Grant Descendants Chart for 1858 Richard Jordan Wright of Rockbridge County, VA: Richard Jordan Wright B c. 1801 or 1803 & before Nov 21, 1804 @ Virginia Res Apr 28, 1825 & Nov 21, 1825 & Feb 20, 1828 & Apr 9, 1829 & Mar 27, 1830 @ Amherst County, Virginia Res 1830 & 1840 & 1850 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia M None D Apr 10, 1858 @ Greenlee's Ferry, Rockbridge County, Virginia (Farmer in 1850) 1st Vina B M None D (A slave in 1853) ..........(1 child in 4th generation) ..........(1) William Wright .......... B Mar 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........( A slave in 1853) 2nd Cansander or Casandra B M None D (A slave in 1853 & 1857) ..........(3 children in 4th generation) ..........(1) Simon Wright .......... B Oct 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(A slave in 1853) ..........(2) Romulus Wright .......... B Sep 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(Twin; a slave in 1857) ..........(3) Remus Wright .......... B Sep 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(Twin; a slave in 1857) 3rd Hannah B M None D (A slave in 1853 & 1856) ..........(2 children in 4th generation) ..........(1) Susan Wright .......... B Dec 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........( A slave in 1853) ..........(2)_____ Wright .......... B Oct 1856 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(A slave in 1856) 4th Lucy B M None D (A slave in 1857) ..........(1 child in 4th generation) ..........(1) Jesse Wright .......... B Jan 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(A slave in 1857) On 10/26/2012 4:33 PM, Craig Kilby wrote: > Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? > > Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new territory here. Could use some help. > > Craig > -- Robert N. Grant Grant & Gordon, LLP 525 University Avenue Suite 1325 Palo Alto, CA 94301 Phone Number: 650-614-3800 Fax Number: 650-614-3810 Email: rngrant@grantandgordon.com

Don, I know what you are referring to about the Edward Bush line and a lot of people are going to be quite surprised when we get around to that story.* But the records in Westmoreland on this are quite clear on what happened. Let's just save this up for later. I don't want to shoot from the hip on this but several years ago (and maybe still alive on my hard drive) I have this data. And yes, it is a perfect example of what I am talking about. And yes, agreed, Reunion will let you do enter information anyway you need to do. I do not understand why Donna would have said this. She has apparently not really used this application. It is far superior to FTM by a million miles. Craig *Much as some others going by the name Mozingo will be surprised to learn the emigrant ancestor was from Africa. New book out on that. Remind to send the news release by Joe Mozingo, the author. On Oct 26, 2012, at 8:04 PM, King Donald E wrote: > Craig -- I do not have any problems dealing with these situations on my REUNION Mac s/w. But, on the NN, at this point I have a very low rate of self-confidence with ANY activity. Hopefully, someday it will become 2nd nature. > I do have a situation in my Bush line which is suspicious; but I have to be careful about what I say. I honestly do think that today's Bush people are completely unaware as the information was shut off before the current generation and some of their ancestry were born. And then I went poking around in the census records. > > Don

Craig, In Reunion the relationships given as options are: Marriage, Common Law; Civil Union; Domestic Partnership. Yes, linking Peter and Carrie is easily done - click and drag. However, there is not a category for their relationship that I have found. They were not married, they did not live together, there was no Civil Union and there was not a Domestic Partnership. I can classify Charles as 'illegitimate' but choose not to. I'm glad you enjoyed the story. Mary is writing a book. The next time we are in Lancaster, I'll bring a copy along if it is finished. Donna

Donna, First, I love your examples of real life stories. I learn best that way. I am just wanting to learn how others are dealing with "nontraditional" birth and relationship events. I have been using Reunion for years. Your statement below is not true. Since I first bought it back in the 90s, I could create same-sex marriages, same-sex parentages, alien parents, and you name it. In fact, I could marry myself to a dog and it would take it. I think it was mostly out of humor they did this, but to say that any "outside of marriage event' is not an option is not the case. I was perfectly able to make my half-brother Mike by his biological father and my brother by my mother into the adopted son of my biological father and whose family now all go by Kilby. This is one reason I really like REUNION. It not nearly as dated and constricted as FTM. I was so amazed by this feature, I decided to see if I could create same-sex unions and all manner of variations of "normal." It was as simple as apple pie. So, I am flummoxed as to why you make this statement about Reunion. If anything, it is TOO lenient! Seriously, do I really want my grandmother to be a tomato? Craig On Oct 26, 2012, at 8:24 PM, Donna Price wrote: > I use both Reunion and Family Tree Maker for Mac. Neither has an option > for any relationship outside of marriage.

Robert, Yes I did read this and you make a good point. If we must enter it as a marriage in order to get in the appropriate person's "time line" then do so and use the best approximate date one can for it. I don't much care for calling these "marriages" because that implies so much more than what was real, but if that is what we have to do, let's just explain as best we can. Many thanks, Craig On Oct 26, 2012, at 8:25 PM, Robert N. Grant wrote: > Craig, > > From the other responses to your question, I see that you were focused > on the listing problems specifically with Ancestry.com and not the > general presentation issue. Regretfully, my comments are of no help on > that specific issue. > > BobGrant > > On 10/26/2012 5:20 PM, Robert N. Grant wrote: >> Craig, >> >> I hope this is responsive to your question. I have not tried to do this >> on the Northern Neck tree on Ancestry.com, but I had one of the problems >> of presentation that you refer to in one Wright family in Rockbridge County. >> >> 1858 (year of death) Richard Jordan Wright of Rockbridge County, VA, >> (place of death) was the son of 1804 Jordan Wright of Amherst County, >> VA, and grandson of 1814/17 Parmenos Wright of Nelson County, VA. 1858 >> Richard Jordan Wright had a number of female slaves by whom he had >> children. The birth records list him as the father and the female slave >> as the mother. >> >> In the presentation for 1858 Richard's family in the descendants chart, >> I listed each female slave as if she were a wife, indicated her slave >> status, and then listed the children under that wife's name. Since >> there were no marriage dates, I listed the slaves in order based on who >> had the earliest child. The concept was to treat the slave mother as if >> she were a spouse, even thoughno marriage occurred, and to treat the >> children as descendants, even though held by the father as slaves. The >> presentation appeared as set forth below (and hopefully the tabbling >> will work properly): >> >> In any event, that was my approach in this case. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Robert N. Grant >> >> >> >> Descendants Chart for 1858 Richard Jordan Wright of Rockbridge County, VA: >> >> Richard Jordan Wright >> B c. 1801 or 1803 & before Nov 21, 1804 @ Virginia >> Res Apr 28, 1825 & Nov 21, 1825 & Feb 20, 1828 & Apr 9, 1829 & Mar 27, >> 1830 @ Amherst County, Virginia >> Res 1830 & 1840 & 1850 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia >> M None >> D Apr 10, 1858 @ Greenlee's Ferry, Rockbridge County, Virginia >> >> (Farmer in 1850) >> >> 1st Vina >> B >> M None >> D >> >> (A slave in 1853) >> >> ..........(1 child in 4th generation) >> >> ..........(1) William Wright >> .......... B Mar 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia >> .......... M >> .......... D >> >> ..........( A slave in 1853) >> >> 2nd Cansander or Casandra >> B >> M None >> D >> >> (A slave in 1853 & 1857) >> >> ..........(3 children in 4th generation) >> >> ..........(1) Simon Wright >> .......... B Oct 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia >> .......... M >> .......... D >> >> ..........(A slave in 1853) >> >> ..........(2) Romulus Wright >> .......... B Sep 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia >> .......... M >> .......... D >> >> ..........(Twin; a slave in 1857) >> >> ..........(3) Remus Wright >> .......... B Sep 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia >> .......... M >> .......... D >> >> ..........(Twin; a slave in 1857) >> >> 3rd Hannah >> B >> M None >> D >> >> (A slave in 1853 & 1856) >> >> ..........(2 children in 4th generation) >> >> ..........(1) Susan Wright >> .......... B Dec 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia >> .......... M >> .......... D >> >> ..........( A slave in 1853) >> >> ..........(2)_____ Wright >> .......... B Oct 1856 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia >> .......... M >> .......... D >> >> ..........(A slave in 1856) >> >> 4th Lucy >> B >> M None >> D >> >> (A slave in 1857) >> >> ..........(1 child in 4th generation) >> >> ..........(1) Jesse Wright >> .......... B Jan 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia >> .......... M >> .......... D >> >> ..........(A slave in 1857) >> >> >> >> On 10/26/2012 4:33 PM, Craig Kilby wrote: >>> Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? >>> >>> Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new territory here. Could use some help. >>> >>> Craig >>> > > -- > Robert N. Grant > Grant & Gordon, LLP > 525 University Avenue Suite 1325 > Palo Alto, CA 94301 > Phone Number: 650-614-3800 > Fax Number: 650-614-3810 > Email: rngrant@grantandgordon.com > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this e-mail transmission from Grant & Gordon, LLP, is confidential and may also be legally privileged as an attorney-client communication and/or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver this e-mail transmission to its intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, use, dissemination, distribution, transmission, disclosure, copying, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please reply to the sender to notify us of the error and delete the original message. Thank you. > > > REQUIRED TAX NOTICE: In accordance with United States Treasury Regulations which became applicable to all tax practitioners as of June 20, 2005, please note that absent an express statement to the contrary in the text of this email or its attachments, any advice contained in this communication was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by any person for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on a taxpayer under any tax law. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jim, this is exactly how I've been doing it. I just wish it could be more self-explanatory. But, it is what it is. I put all of this stuff in the "description box" and if need, in comments and then, if I am really moved, as uploaded files. But still, the main frame just says, for example, that Rawleigh Chinn married (2) Margaret Ball widow of Rawleigh Downman when in fact that was never the case. As you say, we just have to work around it. I am wondering though, that if enough of us explained the issues to the fine people at ancestry who seem to be very happy working on changing the "how it looks" instead of "how it really works" department, we might make some headway. I am hoping the new investor groups will trim some dead weight on the "design" department" and put some more resources into the nuts and bolts. Anyway, you are right. For now, we can only work with what he have and explain it accordingly in our notes in the most obvious and understandable way possible. Many thanks, Craig On Oct 26, 2012, at 9:05 PM, Jim Bartlett wrote: > I say again, for illegitimate children, I would enter Margaret-3 in > Rawleigh-2 CHINN's tree in the box for a wife (and/or vice versa). You can > decide if you want a year in the date box, or not (try it each way and see > how it turns out - the wives are arranged by marriage date). There is also a > box for location, and I would enter that, too. Then there is a box for > description... Here is where I would put the explanation: This was an > illegitimate relationship, Rawleigh and Margaret were not married, but they > were the biological parents of the three children listed here. So at least > the biology is correct. > > Then there are spaces to enter the children of each spouse, so the three > children would be listed under Margaret. > > If you can come up with some better way to show the biology, use it! I > think for Trees, biology trumps a marriage license.

I think that they can be joined with a 'date' and no reason. This can be further explained in Misc notes for either or both of the participants. Don On Oct 26, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Donna Price wrote: > Craig, > In Reunion the relationships given as options are: Marriage, Common Law; > Civil Union; Domestic Partnership. Yes, linking Peter and Carrie is easily > done - click and drag. However, there is not a category for their > relationship that I have found. They were not married, they did not live > together, there was no Civil Union and there was not a Domestic > Partnership. I can classify Charles as 'illegitimate' but choose not to. > > I'm glad you enjoyed the story. Mary is writing a book. The next time we > are in Lancaster, I'll bring a copy along if it is finished. > Donna > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

All, Let's look at this way. Let's just forget the troublesome issue of interracial copulation and use a white on white issue: Rawleigh Chinn and his wife's cousin Margaret Ball and their three children. There is not way to enter this on the ancestry tree unless I say they were married or "unknown father" or "unknown mother" or simply add both parties as "spouse." They, it is none of the above. Rawleigh-2 Chinn and Margaret-3 (Ball) Downman had three illegitimate children, and she was fined for all three and this is of record. His legal wife, Easter Ball (and her first cousin) took this to court. So, not to beat this horse to death, how do we enter this in the tree? I don't think we can but can sure write in lots of caveats. I suppose I am spoiled with the "Reunion" program that most mac users have, and where all these explanations are possible. Maybe with the new investors in ancestry.com from Europe, this will be revisited. I may stand alone in thinking that new investor pool will be a boon to what ancestry currently offers in this area. It was several million dollars of new cash infusion for expansion. Craig

Craig, I can't rewrite the Ancestry software. My suggestions are about how to enter info in whatever we have been given. I did my own family Trees in Word for 20 years because no software program would do what I wanted to do. And, after all, this was my hobby and my research and stuff I wanted to do. So I did them in Word. But when I needed to created a public Tree, I chose Ancestry (for a variety of reasons). I then look for ways around their limitations. I say again, for illigitimate children, I would enter Margaret-3 in Rawleigh-2 CHINN's tree in the box for a wife (and/or vice versa). You can decide if you want a year in the date box, or not (try it each way and see how it turns out - the wives are arranged by marriage date). There is also a box for location, and I would enter that, too. Then there is a box for description... Here is where I would put the explanation: This was an illigitimate relationship, Rawleigh and Margaret were not married, but they were the biological parents of the three children listed here. So at least the biology is correct. Then there are spaces to enter the children of each spouse, so the three children would be listed under Margaret. If you can come up with some better way to show the biology, use it! I think for Trees, biology trumps a marriage license. And this is essential for atDNA situations. I can guarantee you that the DNA knows the correct relationships, and any atDNA matches will follow the biology. Jim Bartlett On 10/26/12, Craig Kilby<persisto1@gmail.com> wrote: All, Let's look at this way. Let's just forget the troublesome issue of interracial copulation and use a white on white issue: Rawleigh Chinn and his wife's cousin Margaret Ball and their three children. There is not way to enter this on the ancestry tree unless I say they were married or "unknown father" or "unknown mother" or simply add both parties as "spouse." They, it is none of the above. Rawleigh-2 Chinn and Margaret-3 (Ball) Downman had three illegitimate children, and she was fined for all three and this is of record. His legal wife, Easter Ball (and her first cousin) took this to court. So, not to beat this horse to death, how do we enter this in the tree? I don't think we can but can sure write in lots of caveats. I suppose I am spoiled with the "Reunion" program that most mac users have, and where all these explanations are possible. Maybe with the new investors in ancestry.com from Europe, this will be revisited. I may stand alone in thinking that new investor pool will be a boon to what ancestry currently offers in this area. It was several million dollars of new cash infusion for expansion. Craig ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-N[1]ORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:ORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com

Problem it wants a date, where there is none. And we should probably not use "marriage" but in fact it was a sexual union. The whole ancestry tree on line is not very well thought out. It wants boxes filled in like we were in the 1940s and everything is so simple and explained with dates and places. It's not that easy. But you are right, there are other ways to work around. But when a marriage is NOT a marriage then I guess it is a "Special Event".....what to call it? On Oct 26, 2012, at 7:49 PM, Jim Bartlett wrote: > Craig > > You can add a dated fact on the time line for each of these. You could list an in married spouse and note in the marriage description box that they were NOT married. Interratial marriages - just list the people and marriage in the normal way. For slave masters list it like the I married above, by putting a description in the box with the marriage info - I think it shows up on the overview page - try it Nd see how it looks. > > Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! > > On Oct 26, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Craig Kilby <craig@craigkilby.com> wrote: > >> Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? >> >> Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new territory here. Could use some help. >> >> Craig >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Craig You can add a dated fact on the time line for each of these. You could list an in married spouse and note in the marriage description box that they were NOT married. Interratial marriages - just list the people and marriage in the normal way. For slave masters list it like the I married above, by putting a description in the box with the marriage info - I think it shows up on the overview page - try it Nd see how it looks. Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 26, 2012, at 7:33 PM, Craig Kilby <craig@craigkilby.com> wrote: > Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? > > Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new territory here. Could use some help. > > Craig > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new territory here. Could use some help. Craig

No, you are not alone and the subject certainly isn't taboo. I just do not have a good answer for you - especially one that you will like. :) Charles Parsons was the son of Peter James Parsons and Carrie, a slave, who moved with the family from Virginia to Missouri. Carrie was owned by Peter's mother, Elizabeth Bailey Parsons. Charles was raised by Peter James as his son. I have entered Peter's and Carrie's partnership as an additional marriage and entered the information sent to me by Mary, a descendant of Charles and wife Elizabeth, in the notes. I have been fortunate to meet and spend time with Mary on her trips back to Missouri. She is part of my family and we share an interest in family history. The stories passed down through her family are wonderful. I use both Reunion and Family Tree Maker for Mac. Neither has an option for any relationship outside of marriage. Donna On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Craig Kilby <craig@craigkilby.com> wrote: > Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how > others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial > marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry > tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? > > Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some > experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't > this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, > but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. > Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new > territory here. Could use some help. > > Craig > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Craig, From the other responses to your question, I see that you were focused on the listing problems specifically with Ancestry.com and not the general presentation issue. Regretfully, my comments are of no help on that specific issue. BobGrant On 10/26/2012 5:20 PM, Robert N. Grant wrote: > Craig, > > Ihope this is responsive to your question. I have not tried to do this > on the Northern Neck tree on Ancestry.com, but I had one of the problems > of presentation that you refer to in one Wright family in Rockbridge County. > > 1858 (year of death) Richard Jordan Wright of Rockbridge County, VA, > (place of death) was the son of 1804 Jordan Wright of Amherst County, > VA, and grandson of 1814/17 Parmenos Wright of Nelson County, VA. 1858 > Richard Jordan Wright had a number of female slaves by whom he had > children. The birth records list him as the father and the female slave > as the mother. > > In the presentation for 1858 Richard's family in the descendants chart, > I listed each female slave as if she were a wife, indicated her slave > status, and then listed the children under that wife's name. Since > there were no marriage dates, I listed the slaves in order based on who > had the earliest child. The concept was to treat the slave mother as if > she were a spouse, even thoughno marriage occurred, and to treat the > children as descendants, even though held by the father as slaves. The > presentation appeared as set forth below (and hopefully the tabbling > will work properly): > > In any event, that was my approach in this case. > > Best wishes, > > Robert N. Grant > > > > Descendants Chart for 1858 Richard Jordan Wright of Rockbridge County, VA: > > Richard Jordan Wright > B c. 1801 or 1803 & before Nov 21, 1804 @ Virginia > Res Apr 28, 1825 & Nov 21, 1825 & Feb 20, 1828 & Apr 9, 1829 & Mar 27, > 1830 @ Amherst County, Virginia > Res 1830 & 1840 & 1850 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia > M None > D Apr 10, 1858 @ Greenlee's Ferry, Rockbridge County, Virginia > > (Farmer in 1850) > > 1st Vina > B > M None > D > > (A slave in 1853) > > ..........(1 child in 4th generation) > > ..........(1) William Wright > .......... B Mar 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia > .......... M > .......... D > > ..........( A slave in 1853) > > 2nd Cansander or Casandra > B > M None > D > > (A slave in 1853 & 1857) > > ..........(3 children in 4th generation) > > ..........(1) Simon Wright > .......... B Oct 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia > .......... M > .......... D > > ..........(A slave in 1853) > > ..........(2) Romulus Wright > .......... B Sep 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia > .......... M > .......... D > > ..........(Twin; a slave in 1857) > > ..........(3) Remus Wright > .......... B Sep 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia > .......... M > .......... D > > ..........(Twin; a slave in 1857) > > 3rd Hannah > B > M None > D > > (A slave in 1853 & 1856) > > ..........(2 children in 4th generation) > > ..........(1) Susan Wright > .......... B Dec 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia > .......... M > .......... D > > ..........( A slave in 1853) > > ..........(2)_____ Wright > .......... B Oct 1856 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia > .......... M > .......... D > > ..........(A slave in 1856) > > 4th Lucy > B > M None > D > > (A slave in 1857) > > ..........(1 child in 4th generation) > > ..........(1) Jesse Wright > .......... B Jan 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia > .......... M > .......... D > > ..........(A slave in 1857) > > > > On 10/26/2012 4:33 PM, Craig Kilby wrote: >> Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? >> >> Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new territory here. Could use some help. >> >> Craig >> -- Robert N. 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Craig, Ihope this is responsive to your question. I have not tried to do this on the Northern Neck tree on Ancestry.com, but I had one of the problems of presentation that you refer to in one Wright family in Rockbridge County. 1858 (year of death) Richard Jordan Wright of Rockbridge County, VA, (place of death) was the son of 1804 Jordan Wright of Amherst County, VA, and grandson of 1814/17 Parmenos Wright of Nelson County, VA. 1858 Richard Jordan Wright had a number of female slaves by whom he had children. The birth records list him as the father and the female slave as the mother. In the presentation for 1858 Richard's family in the descendants chart, I listed each female slave as if she were a wife, indicated her slave status, and then listed the children under that wife's name. Since there were no marriage dates, I listed the slaves in order based on who had the earliest child. The concept was to treat the slave mother as if she were a spouse, even thoughno marriage occurred, and to treat the children as descendants, even though held by the father as slaves. The presentation appeared as set forth below (and hopefully the tabbling will work properly): In any event, that was my approach in this case. Best wishes, Robert N. Grant Descendants Chart for 1858 Richard Jordan Wright of Rockbridge County, VA: Richard Jordan Wright B c. 1801 or 1803 & before Nov 21, 1804 @ Virginia Res Apr 28, 1825 & Nov 21, 1825 & Feb 20, 1828 & Apr 9, 1829 & Mar 27, 1830 @ Amherst County, Virginia Res 1830 & 1840 & 1850 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia M None D Apr 10, 1858 @ Greenlee's Ferry, Rockbridge County, Virginia (Farmer in 1850) 1st Vina B M None D (A slave in 1853) ..........(1 child in 4th generation) ..........(1) William Wright .......... B Mar 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........( A slave in 1853) 2nd Cansander or Casandra B M None D (A slave in 1853 & 1857) ..........(3 children in 4th generation) ..........(1) Simon Wright .......... B Oct 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(A slave in 1853) ..........(2) Romulus Wright .......... B Sep 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(Twin; a slave in 1857) ..........(3) Remus Wright .......... B Sep 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(Twin; a slave in 1857) 3rd Hannah B M None D (A slave in 1853 & 1856) ..........(2 children in 4th generation) ..........(1) Susan Wright .......... B Dec 1853 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........( A slave in 1853) ..........(2)_____ Wright .......... B Oct 1856 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(A slave in 1856) 4th Lucy B M None D (A slave in 1857) ..........(1 child in 4th generation) ..........(1) Jesse Wright .......... B Jan 1857 @ Rockbridge County, Virginia .......... M .......... D ..........(A slave in 1857) On 10/26/2012 4:33 PM, Craig Kilby wrote: > Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? > > Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new territory here. Could use some help. > > Craig > -- Robert N. Grant Grant & Gordon, LLP 525 University Avenue Suite 1325 Palo Alto, CA 94301 Phone Number: 650-614-3800 Fax Number: 650-614-3810 Email: rngrant@grantandgordon.com

Craig -- I do not have any problems dealing with these situations on my REUNION Mac s/w. But, on the NN, at this point I have a very low rate of self-confidence with ANY activity. Hopefully, someday it will become 2nd nature. I do have a situation in my Bush line which is suspicious; but I have to be careful about what I say. I honestly do think that today's Bush people are completely unaware as the information was shut off before the current generation and some of their ancestry were born. And then I went poking around in the census records. Don On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:33 PM, Craig Kilby wrote: > Boy, I'm disappointed that I have not received one single word on how others are handling divorces, unmarried couple having children, interracial marriages, slave masters begetting children on slave women on the ancestry tree? Am I alone here in dealing with these things? > > Is this just a taboo topic? Surely out of this group there must be some experience with how they treat these things on the ancestry trees. Isn't this what this list all about? You don't have to be SPECIFIC as in NAMES, but how you work around it on the tree(s) would be useful for to know. Well, it would sure be useful for me to know. I'm kind of walking into new territory here. Could use some help. > > Craig > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I know, I know, I know. We are probably getting DNA overload. But something wonderful happened today and there is a good lesson in this for all of us....and some questions on how we input data into the NN tree on ancestry, with its limited ancestry. About 10 months ago, I was contacted by one Robert E. Avery, Jr., a descendant of one Robert Avery who was a slave of Joel M. Avery of Taylor County, Kentucky. Well. This was intriguing. I certainly knew who Joel M. Avery was, but I knew nothing about any slaves. I will skip the fascinating details, but at that chapter he took a Y-DNA test and was a perfect match to both white and black Avarys in GEORGIA. This is a different branch of the same Avary family, which originates with emigrant Yeo Avery of Cornwall, England who first shows up in Richmond County in 1707. (See list I sent to Jim earlier today for him). Here we have a proverbial three brothers story. Yeo Avery, emigrant, eventually moves to Amelia County, Virginia, and dies there in 1752, leaving one child and one child only--a son named George, who died in Brunswick County in 1801. George died at a very ripe old age leaving three sons and two daughters. Of the three sons--yes, here we go, but it's true!--one ends up in Columbia County, Georgia via Mecklenburg County, Virginia. One ends up in Greenville District, South Carolina via Brunswick County, Virginia. The third son--my ancestor, and Rob's too as it turns out--stayed in Amelia where he died in 1791. At that point, a virtual diaspora ensues going in all directions. The person of interest is one of his sons, Nathan Avary, who ends up in Green County, Kentucky and dies there in 1841. Here's the lesson: I have had a copy of Nathan Avary's will since 1993, and in my initial rush to prove he was the father of my guy who went to St. Louis County, Missouri, I completely overlooked one important sentence in this will: "I give and bequeath unto Joel M Avary's heirs to be held in trust by said Joel Avary for them negro man named Bob." Oh. We from the Union Civil War records of one of Bob's sons that he, the son, changed his name back to Avery as that was his father's name who had been a slave of Joel M. Avery. This son had been a slave another man named Russell when he enlisted, and he wanted his "real" name back. Joel Avary was the same age as Robert the slave, so that really only leaves one possibility as the paternity of Robert "Bob" Avary, and that is Nathan Avary himself. ---------- All that said, I have attempted to add this to the NN tree on ancestry. I notice there are so few options under "marriage" and "race" that this really needs to be explained in better detail in their notes. I am wondering how others have been handling these sorts of "it's complicated" relationships there. I am going to invite my new-found cousin Rob to the NN DNA project, as well as some others who have done some DNA work on the AVERY line. The reason why it could be very beneficial is that we know Yeo Avery married twice--both times in Richmond County, Virginia, and by the time-line it would seem his son George did also--and we do not know her name at all. So, long story short. DNA can and does open a lot of doors. But the paper trail is what sings the song. Craig

Jim and all, I knew I'd leave somebody out of this list. Please add: HILL, Charles, d 1660 [Middlesex] then Lancaster: Craig Kilby This presents a small problem, Jim, in that in 1660 Middlesex was in Lancaster County. How do you want these sorts of situations presented? Genealogical note: Charles Hill was the father of Katherine Hill who married Christopher Killbee (Kilby) in Middlesex County. Craig

I've just sent these additions to the developing master list to Jim. I've added some explanatory notes here for some of them AVERY, Yeo b 1676 Cornwall, England, d 1752 Amelia (m in Richmond): Craig Kilby [m. Elizabeth Harbin in 1710, Richmond County] FRANK, Robert Sr d 1725 Westmoreland: David Brown; Craig Kilby [added to Robert Frank] GRAY, Francis d 1667 Westmoreland: Craig Kilby HARBIN, George d abt 1696 Richmond: Craig Kilby [father of Elizabeth Harbin who m Yeo Avery] HUDSON, Joshua d 1704 Westmoreland: Craig Kilby JENKINS, Ann d aft 1700 Middlesex & Richmond: Craig Kilby [m as her 1st husband, Claude Vallott] KILBY, Christopher d abt 1681 Middlesex: Craig Kilby [not my direct ancestor and this line daughtered out in NC--should match with FAISON family] ROSSER, David d 1698 Richmond: Craig Kilby RUSH, William d 1691 Westmoreland: Craig Kilby SHERWOOD, Phillip d 1685 Old Rappahannock: Craig Kilby TOWLES, Henry d 1721 Accomack (left many descendants in Lancaster): Craig Kilby VALLOTT, Claude b 1649 Champagne, France, d 1692 Middlesex: Craig Kilby [came with Phillip Carteret to New Jersey, fled from there to Middlesex County]

Here's the latest list. I'm still hoping for some input from John, Robert, Pam, Susannah, Bruce, Jan and Gene. And I'm ready to start the list of Common Ancestors (between one of our participants and an atDNA Match). AVERY, Yeo 1676-1752 Amelia (m in Richmond): Craig Kilby BAILEY, Joseph c1620-c1674 Lancaster: Donna Price BALL, Benjamin 1719 Middlesex-1807 Fauquier: Jude Degen BALL, Edward c1670?-1726 Middlesex: Jude Degen BALL, William 1641-1694 Lancaster: David Brown BERRY, Thomas c1683-1743 Northumberland: David Brown BLACKWELL: Mary West Rumora BONUM, Rebecca d c715 Westmoreland: Barbara Shroyer BRENT, Hugh d 1671 Lancaster: Barbara Shroyer BRIGGS, Ralph c1640-c1689 Lancaster: Donna Price BUSH, Abraham d 1686/1687 Lancaster: David Brown BYSSHE (BISH), Ursula d c1661 Northumberland: David Brown CAMMOCK, Mary 1700s Richmond: James V Bartlett Jr CARROLL, Daniel 1600s Westmoreland: James V Bartlett Jr CHILTON, Jesse 1700s Lancaster: Barbara Shroyer COCKRILL, John d 1707 Northumberland: David Brown CONWAY, Col. Edwin c1610-1660/61 Lancaster: Ann Avery Hunter CREEL, Thomas 1685-1727 Richmond: Jude Degen CREEL, William 1712-1757 Richmond, Prince William: Jude Degen CREELE, John c1656 England-c 1720 Northumberland: Jude Degen DAMERON, Lawrence c1615-1660 Northumberland: David Brown DICKERSON, Thomas c1690s-1734 Essex: James V Bartlett Jr DODSON, Charles Joseph c 1649 Lancaster-1705 Richmond: Jude Degen DODSON, Jesse c 1623-1655 Jamestown, Old Rappahannock (later Richmond) : Jude Degen DODSON, Thomas 1681-1740 Richmond: Jude Degen DOWNING, Capt William 1700s Northumberland: James V Bartlett Jr; Mary West Rumora DURHAM, Thomas 1661-1716 Richmond: Jude Degen ESKRIDGE, George d 1735 Westmoreland: Barbara Shroyer FRANK, Robert Sr d 1725 Westmoreland: David Brown; Craig Kilby GARLINGTON, Christopher d Aft 1658 Northumberland: David Brown GILSON, Behethland 1600s Westmoreland: Barbara Shroyer GRAVES, Thomas 1580-1635 Northumberland: James V Bartlett Jr GRAY, Francis d 1667 Westmoreland: Craig Kilby HAINES, Elinore 1700s Lancaster: Barbara Shroyer HARBIN, George d c1696 Richmond: Craig Kilby HARRIS, John d c1707 Northumberland: David Brown HATHAWAY, William 1600s Lancaster: James V Bartlett Jr HAWKINS, John 1680-1740 Essex, Richmond: James V Bartlett Jr HAYNIE, John c1624 - 1697 Northumberland: David Brown HILL, Charles c1620-c1659: Donna Price HUDSON, Joshua d 1704 Westmoreland: Craig Kilby INGRAM, Thomas d 1707 Northumberland: David Brown JENKINS, Ann d aft 1700 Middlesex, Richmond: Craig Kilby JOHNSON, William d c1745 Middlesex: Donna Price JONES: Mary West Rumora KILBY, Christopher d c1681 Middlesex: Craig Kilby KING, Arthur 1600s Westmoreland: Donald E King LAWSON, Roland 1600s Lancaster: James V Bartlett Jr MARSHALL, Thomas d 1704 Westmoreland: Ann Avery Hunter MARSHALL, Sarah d 1726 Westmoreland: David Brown McNEALE(E), John 1744-1787 Middlesex, Fauquier: Jude Degen MITCHELL, William c1670-c1792 Lancaster: Donna Price MOREHEAD, Alexander d 1744 Northumberland: David Brown MORRIS, Nicholas d 1664 Northumberland: David Brown; Mary West Rumora NEWSUM, Robert 1700s Lancaster: Barbara Shroyer NEWTON, Thomas 1678 -1727 Westmoreland: Barbara Shroyer OWEN, Augustine c1680-c1725 Middlesex: Jude Degen PACE, John d 1717 Middlesex: Donna Price PAYNE, John d 1689/90 Lancaster: Ann Avery Hunter PINCKARD: Mary West Rumora PRESLEY, William d c1656 Northumberland: David Brown PROCTOR, George d c1735 Richmond, King George: David Brown ROSSER, David d 1698 Richmond: Craig Kilby RUSH, William d 1691 Westmoreland: Craig Kilby SANFORD, John Sr 1600s Westmoreland: James V Bartlett Jr SHARP, Elias d 1745 King George: David Brown SHERWOOD, Phillip d 1685 Old Rappahannock: Craig Kilby SMITH, John d 1669 Middlesex: Ann Avery Hunter SMITH, Robert d 1661 Westmoreland: Donald E King SMOOT, William c1652-1716 Essex or Richmond: Jude Degen SPENCE, David d 1726 Northumberland: James V Bartlett Jr STEPTOE: Mary West Rumora STONE: Mary West Rumora STORKE, Nehemiah 1600s Westmoreland: Barbara Shroyer THACKER, Henry d c1681 Middlesex: Ann Avery Hunter THOMPSON, Richard d c1649 Northumberland: David Brown TIMBERLAKE, Francis 1687-1727 Middlesex, Northumberland: James V Bartlett Jr TOWLES, Henry d 1721 Accomack (descendants in Lancaster): Craig Kilby VALLOTT, Claude 1649-1692 Middlesex: Craig Kilby VIVION, John d 1705 Middlesex: Ann Avery Hunter WALKER, Col. John c1601-1668/69 Rappahannock: Ann Avery Hunter WELCH, John 1600s Westmoreland: James V Bartlett Jr WILLIAMS, William d 1712 Essex: Ann Avery Hunter WILLIAMSON, Margaret d 1709 Lancaster: David Brown WILLIS, William 1690-1716 Richmond : James V Bartlett Jr WRIGHT, Francis c1640-c1690 Lancaster: Donna Price; Robert Grant Jim Bartlett