Somewhere along the lines I acquired the following. If I find a source of this information I will post it. Just another one of those careless things I did back in the beginning of copying and pasting a source and not listing where I got it. Janean "Party per pale Vert and Gules, a Lion passant, by the name of Atherold of Burgh in Suffolk. Thomas Atherold of Burgh in Suffolk by Mary, Dar of Vessy, had Thomas Atherold of Burgh, Barrister at Law, who by Mary, Dar of John Harvey, had Nathanl Atherold of Burgh, living in 1660." "Atherold, Thomas of Burgh in Suffolk, at Grey's Inn 1610-11 (? called to the bar) Ancient 8 May 1632. Son of Thomas bapt at Burgh, 16 Aug 1590. died 6 May 1658. buried there, will dat: 10 May 1656, m Mary dau of Thomas Vesey of Oldham, Gent: (widow of Wm. Herbert) buried at Burgh, May 1665. left issue a son Thomas, barrister at law who m Mary dau of John Harvey of Eye Suffolk and had a son Nathaniel." -----Original Message----- From: va-northern-neck-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:va-northern-neck-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of DAVID BROWN Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 6:44 PM To: DAVID BROWN; va-northern-neck@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Revised Patriarch List: William Ball,I & Hannah Atherold The following is of interest as well as it actually connects Vesey to Gosnold & Ball (specifically Roger Ball of Hadleigh).   1559 Will of Robert Vesey (Source:  Suffolk Manorial Families, Being the County Visitations and Other ..., Volume 1 edited by Joseph James Muskett): Robert Vesey of Hadley in the countye of Suffolk, clothier, 11 Octr 1559. To the children of William Vesey by his first and second wives, when of age. To the children of Lawrence Vezey, viz, :—Abram, Isaacke, and Laurance when twenty four, and to Rose, Dorathe, Margaret, Anne, Alice and Marye Vesey, when twenty years of age. To John Smith, sonne of William Smith of Hadley: Anthony Gosnold, sonne of Robert Gosnold, late of Ottley: Alice Gosnold my maide: Judith Gosnold daughter of said Robert: Elizabeth Smith, dwelling with me, daughter of John Smith of Elmsett: Roger Ball of Hadleigh my kinsman: Katherine Cole, daughter of Rose Cole. To William Vesey my sonne my lands in Leigham. To Arture Vesey my sonne the howso I dwell in for life; then to Robert Vesey his sonne , then, for lack of sonnes to said Arthur and Robert, to Laurence Vesey* sonne late of Laurence Vesey sonne of me ) and then, failing issue males, to Isaacke Vesey. Lands to Arthur Vesey for life, then to Robert Vesey his eldest sonne. To the said Arthur Vesey lands in Roydon. To Dorathe Vesey daughter of William Vesey. To Laurence Smith, sonne of John Smith, lands in Roydon. To William Vesey sonne of William Vesey; Ingelbrighte Smithe, sonne of John Smith of Elmsett: Henry Vesey sonne of William Vesey: Robert Smith sonne of John Smith of Elmsett: Edward Smith sonne of John Smith of Elmsett; John Gosnold sonne of Robert Gosnold late of Ottley: William and John Gosnold, also sonnes of the said Robert: John Smith sonne of John Smith of Hadley; and Robert Smith th'elder. sonne of John Smith of Elmsett. Probate 7 May 1561 Juramento Willmi Vesey executoris. Cur. Pncrog. Cant. 16 Loftus. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5361 - Release Date: 10/29/12

Charlene, this reminds me of a discussion we had on the Culpeper County list a few years ago. I don't think we ever really resolved all of the daughters of Samuel Ball. It is pertinent here because of the Samuel Ball in question, who is: Samuel-3 Ball (1686-1751), son of William-2 Ball (William-1) and Col. John Tayloe, all of whom are significant NN names. I wouldn't mind revisiting this issue here. We have many patrons at the MBW who think they descend from Samuel's son William-4 Ball, which is not possible since he had no children. This piece of fiction got started with the lawsuit of millionaire Joseph Ball of Philadelphia's intestate death, sending every attorney known to man scurrying around the United States lookup anyone named "BALL" and telling them that (1) they were entitled to millions of dollars and (2) they were related to George Washington. I have not seen so much of this lately from patrons, but still, the TRUE family of Samuel-3 has some question marks. There is no doubt about Judith (Ball) Hackley, however. So there, you are on firm ice. Craig On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:39 PM, TEbel2888@aol.com wrote: > am a HACKLEY descendant. I have Elizabeth WARREN m Mathew BROOKS > > Elizabeth SHIPPEY, below, is my ancestor and also my many-grt aunt -- > granddaughter of George MOTT. > > I am descended from Elizabeth SHIPPEY's son John HACKLEY who m Judith BALL, > dau of Capt. Samuel BALL of Culpeper.

Hi David, What dates are you giving to William Ball and what place do you have listed for him living ? I am retired with time on my hands and want to take a look too. Thanx. Ginny Keefer ************************************************** -----Original Message----- From: DAVID BROWN Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 3:35 PM To: va-northern-neck@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Revised Patriarch List: William Ball,I & Hannah Atherold Craig, You’re right in that I should have listed William Ball, I & Hannah Atherold. However, I wasn’t sure how conclusive the evidence is for this marriage to Hannah Atherold, and I also wasn’t entirely confident of my own data on William Ball, I as far as dates were concerned (I had more concrete data on William Ball, II who married Margaret Williamson). I don’t know if there is documentation to support it, but I have seen Hannah Atherold listed as the daughter of Thomas Atherold and Mary Vesey (Atherold was a Suffolk, England family). I have always found this supposed Vesey connection intriguing as I see this surname elsewhere. For instance, the Dameron Family Association has conducted research (led by John Dameron whose sister Syl Vaden is a member of this List) of the Damerons in Suffolk, England and found a marriage record for George Dameron to Elizabeth Gosnold in 1555 in Suffolk, England. George Dameron & Elizabeth Gosnold (married 1555) may possibly be the great-grandparents of emigrant ancestor Lawrence Dameron who was married to Dorothy MNU. It appears this Elizabeth Gosnold who married George Dameron in 1555 was the daughter of Edmund Gosnold and Grace MNU. Edmund Gosnold had nephew Robert Gosnold who married Mary Vesey. This Robert Gosnold and Mary Vesey are ancestors of Bartholomew Gosnold, the Jamestowne founder. Lazarus Taylor of Northumberland Co., VA supposedly married Mary Vesey. I don’t have proof, but suspect that this Lazarus Taylor is a brother (or related somehow) of the widow Elizabeth Dennis who married George Dameron, son of emigrant ancestor Lawrence Dameron (I descend from two of the sons of emigrant Lawrence Dameron & Dorothy MNU – Bartholomew who married Elizabeth Garlington and George who married widow Elizabeth Dennis). Anyway, this brings us back to a question previously discussed on this List. Where is the English home of the William Ball, I family? Suffolk or perhaps even Norfolk seem to me to be likely locations. Here is an excerpt from the William & Mary Quarterly on this subject: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1915162 Thanks. David P.S. The following is of interest as well as it actually connects Vesey to Gosnold & Ball (specifically Roger Ball of Hadleigh). 1559 Will of Robert Vesey (Source: Suffolk Manorial Families, Being the County Visitations and Other ..., Volume 1 edited by Joseph James Muskett): Robert Vesey of Hadley in the countye of Suffolk, clothier, 11 Octr 1559. To the children of William Vesey by his first and second wives, when of age. To the children of Lawrence Vezey, viz, :—Abram, Isaacke, and Laurance when twenty four, and to Rose, Dorathe, Margaret, Anne, Alice and Marye Vesey, when twenty years of age. To John Smith, sonne of William Smith of Hadley: Anthony Gosnold, sonne of Robert Gosnold, late of Ottley: Alice Gosnold my maide: Judith Gosnold daughter of said Robert: Elizabeth Smith, dwelling with me, daughter of John Smith of Elmsett: Roger Ball of Hadleigh my kinsman: Katherine Cole, daughter of Rose Cole. To William Vesey my sonne my lands in Leigham. To Arture Vesey my sonne the howso I dwell in for life; then to Robert Vesey his sonne , then, for lack of sonnes to said Arthur and Robert, to Laurence Vesey* sonne late of Laurence Vesey sonne of me ) and then, failing issue males, to Isaacke Vesey. Lands to Arthur Vesey for life, then to Robert Vesey his eldest sonne. To the said Arthur Vesey lands in Roydon. To Dorathe Vesey daughter of William Vesey. To Laurence Smith, sonne of John Smith, lands in Roydon. To William Vesey sonne of William Vesey; Ingelbrighte Smithe, sonne of John Smith of Elmsett: Henry Vesey sonne of William Vesey: Robert Smith sonne of John Smith of Elmsett: Edward Smith sonne of John Smith of Elmsett; John Gosnold sonne of Robert Gosnold late of Ottley: William and John Gosnold, also sonnes of the said Robert: John Smith sonne of John Smith of Hadley; and Robert Smith th'elder. sonne of John Smith of Elmsett. Probate 7 May 1561 Juramento Willmi Vesey executoris. Cur. Pncrog. Cant. 16 Loftus. From: Craig Kilby persisto1@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Revised Patriarch List Just wondering here why David isn't using the emigrant, William-1 Ball instead of his son William-2. Might make more sense if he did this: BALL, William 1650-1680 Lancaster: David Brown WILLIAMSON, James 1600s Essex: David Brown I'd be tempted to add: ATHEROLD, Hannah d 1695 Lancaster (widow of William-1 Ball): David Brown ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am a HACKLEY descendant. I have Elizabeth WARREN m Mathew BROOKS Elizabeth SHIPPEY, below, is my ancestor and also my many-grt aunt -- granddaughter of George MOTT. I am descended from Elizabeth SHIPPEY's son John HACKLEY who m Judith BALL, dau of Capt. Samuel BALL of Culpeper. Descendants of John Hackley 1 John Hackley 1661 - 1698 b: 1661 in Calbourne Parish, Isle of Wight, England d: Aft. 03/12/1698 in Date of will in Essex Co., Virginia .. +Elizabeth Bowler Lambert 1654 - 1718 b: Bet. 03/14/1654 - 1655 in Old Rappahannock Co., Virginia d: Abt. 1718 ..... 2 James Hackley 1691 - 1748 b: 1691 in Rappahannock Co., Virginia d: 08/05/1748 in Brunswick Parish, King George Co., Virginia ......... +Elizabeth Shippey 1692 - 1756 b: Abt. 1692 in Richmond or King George Co., Virginia d: 08/05/1756 in Brunswick Parish, King George Co., Virginia ............ 3 Mary Hackley 1713 - b: Aft. 1713 ................ +Lott Underwood 1720 - 1773 b: Bet. 1720 - 1726 d: 1773 in Culpepper Co., Virginia ............ 3 Lott Hackley 1713 - 1798 b: Aft. 1713 d: 1798 ................ +Jalee (Jael) Reeds 1734 - b: 1734 in King George Co., Va. d: in King George Co., Va. ............ 3 Francis Hackley, AmRev 1740 - 1817 b: 05/06/1740 in King George Co., Va. d: 07/17/1817 in Fox Creek, Lawrenceburg, Anderson Co., Ky ................ +Fannie Lightfoot 1753 - 1825 b: 02/19/1753 in Culpeper Co., Va. d: 10/10/1825 in Fox Creek, Lawrenceburg, Anderson Co., Ky ............ 3 James Hackley, Jr. 1742 - 1822 b: Abt. 1742 in King George Co., Va. d: Aft. 1822 in Culpeper Co., Virginia, Later Rappahannock Co. ................ +Mary Freeman 1755 - 1795 b: Bef. 1755 in Fauquier Co., Virginia d: 1795 in Culpeper Co., Virginia, Later Rappahannock Co. ............ 3 [1] Lucy Hackley 1743 - 1833 b: 06/10/1743 in King George Co., Va. d: 04/02/1833 in Stamping Ground, Scott Co., Ky ................ +Mr Craig ............ *2nd Husband of [1] Lucy Hackley: ................ +William Johnson 1721 - 1750 b: Abt. 1721 d: 1750 ............ *3rd Husband of [1] Lucy Hackley: ................ +W. Hansford ............ 3 Joseph Hackley 1713 - 1752 b: Aft. 1713 in Essex Co., Virginia d: 1752 in Prince William Co., Virginia ................ +Mary Duncan 1734 - 1788 b: Bef. 1734 in Culpeper Co., Va. d: Aft. 06/07/1788 ............ 3 Richard Hackley 1713 - b: Aft. 1713 ............ 3 John Hackley 1720 - 1768 b: Bef. 1720 in King George Co., Virginia d: 10/1768 in King George Co., Virginia ................ +Judith Ball 1718 - 1772 b: 1718 in Culpeper Co., Virginia d: 1772 ............ 3 [2] Ellen Hackley 1714 - 1790 b: Abt. 1714 in King George Co., Virginia d: Abt. 1790 in Culpepper Co., Virginia ................ +Robert Doniphan 1694 - 1743 b: Abt. 1694 d: 10/03/1743 in King George Co., Va. ............ *2nd Husband of [2] Ellen Hackley: ................ +George "Thomas" Stubblefield 1712 - 1757 b: 1712 in Gloucester Co., Virginia d: 1757 in Culpeper Co., Va. ............ *3rd Husband of [2] Ellen Hackley: ................ +William Underwood IV 1720 - 1774 b: Abt. 1720 d: 1774 in Culpepper Co., Virginia ..... 2 Joseph Hackley 1689 - 1788 b: Abt. 1689 d: Bef. 1788 in Culpeper Co., Va. ..... 2 Agnes Hackley 1686 - 1721 b: Aft. 1686 in Essex Co., Virginia d: Aft. 1721 in Culpeper Co., Virginia ......... +John Butler 1680 - 1717 b: Abt. 1680 d: 1717 in Essex Co., Virginia ............ 3 James Butler ............ 3 Elizabeth Butler ............ 3 Margarett Butler ..... 2 Elizabeth Hackley 1686 - 1751 b: Bet. 1686 - 1697 d: Abt. 1751 in Spotsylvania Co., Virginia ......... +Mr. Gray ..... 2 Mary Elizabeth Hackley 1686 - 1751 b: 1686 in Rappahannock/Essex Co., Virginia d: 04/02/1751 in Spotsylvania Co., Virginia ......... +Thomas Warren 1658 - 1749 b: Abt. 1658 in old Rappahannock Co., Va. d: Bet. 04/13/1749 - 12/04/1750 in Spotsylvania Co., Virginia ............ 3 Mary Warren 1701 - 1720 b: Aft. 1701 d: 12/29/1720 ................ +Thomas(Sr.) Buford ............ 3 Elizabeth Warren 1717 - 1760 b: Abt. 1717 d: Abt. 1760 in Frederick Co., Virginia ................ +Matthew Brooks 1700 - 1780 b: Abt. 1700 d: Abt. 1780 ............ 3 Lancelot Warren 1701 - b: Aft. 1701 ............ 3 Rachel Warren 1701 - b: Aft. 1701 ................ +John Askew ............ 3 Roxanna Warren 1701 - b: Aft. 1701 ............ 3 [3] Hackley Warren 1723 - 1807 b: 1723 in Spotsylvania Co., Va. d: 06/10/1807 in Spartanburg, SC ................ +Sarah Shipp 1732 - 1800 b: 1732 d: 10/29/1800 ............ *2nd Wife of [3] Hackley Warren: ................ +Sarah Shipp 1724 - 1800 b: 1724 in Caroline Co., Virginia d: 10/29/1800 in North Carolina ****************************************************** Will dated 1/31/1750, probated 4/2/1751. Name was also spelled Warrin. Spotsylvania Co. Rec D.B. D1742-51, p 184[reeds.FBK] WARREN, THOMAS, Planter, Spotsylvania Co., d. Apr. 13, 1749, p. Dec. 4, 1750. Wit. Robert Huddlestone, Abram Rogers, Barbara Rogers. Ex. wife, Mary and son, Hackley Warren. Leg. son, Hackley Warren, Charlene REEDS-EBELING In a message dated 10/29/2012 2:51:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jim4bartletts@verizon.net writes: Charlie, Thanks a bunch. I'm anxious to learn if Thomas WARREN and Mary HACKLEY had a daughter Elizabeth m Jacob BROOKS.

Charlene, Thanks very much. I've now seen several versions of this line, so this will be interesting to see how it sorts out. Jim Bartlett On 10/29/12, TEbel2888@aol.com wrote: I am a HACKLEY descendant. I have Elizabeth WARREN m Mathew BROOKS Elizabeth SHIPPEY, below, is my ancestor and also my many-grt aunt -- granddaughter of George MOTT. I am descended from Elizabeth SHIPPEY's son John HACKLEY who m Judith BALL, dau of Capt. Samuel BALL of Culpeper. Descendants of John Hackley 1 John Hackley 1661 - 1698 b: 1661 in Calbourne Parish, Isle of Wight, England d: Aft. 03/12/1698 in Date of will in Essex Co., Virginia .. +Elizabeth Bowler Lambert 1654 - 1718 b: Bet. 03/14/1654 - 1655 in Old Rappahannock Co., Virginia d: Abt. 1718 ..... 2 James Hackley 1691 - 1748 b: 1691 in Rappahannock Co., Virginia d: 08/05/1748 in Brunswick Parish, King George Co., Virginia ......... +Elizabeth Shippey 1692 - 1756 b: Abt. 1692 in Richmond or King George Co., Virginia d: 08/05/1756 in Brunswick Parish, King George Co., Virginia ............ 3 Mary Hackley 1713 - b: Aft. 1713 ................ +Lott Underwood 1720 - 1773 b: Bet. 1720 - 1726 d: 1773 in Culpepper Co., Virginia ............ 3 Lott Hackley 1713 - 1798 b: Aft. 1713 d: 1798 ................ +Jalee (Jael) Reeds 1734 - b: 1734 in King George Co., Va. d: in King George Co., Va. ............ 3 Francis Hackley, AmRev 1740 - 1817 b: 05/06/1740 in King George Co., Va. d: 07/17/1817 in Fox Creek, Lawrenceburg, Anderson Co., Ky ................ +Fannie Lightfoot 1753 - 1825 b: 02/19/1753 in Culpeper Co., Va. d: 10/10/1825 in Fox Creek, Lawrenceburg, Anderson Co., Ky ............ 3 James Hackley, Jr. 1742 - 1822 b: Abt. 1742 in King George Co., Va. d: Aft. 1822 in Culpeper Co., Virginia, Later Rappahannock Co. ................ +Mary Freeman 1755 - 1795 b: Bef. 1755 in Fauquier Co., Virginia d: 1795 in Culpeper Co., Virginia, Later Rappahannock Co. ............ 3 [1] Lucy Hackley 1743 - 1833 b: 06/10/1743 in King George Co., Va. d: 04/02/1833 in Stamping Ground, Scott Co., Ky ................ +Mr Craig ............ *2nd Husband of [1] Lucy Hackley: ................ +William Johnson 1721 - 1750 b: Abt. 1721 d: 1750 ............ *3rd Husband of [1] Lucy Hackley: ................ +W. Hansford ............ 3 Joseph Hackley 1713 - 1752 b: Aft. 1713 in Essex Co., Virginia d: 1752 in Prince William Co., Virginia ................ +Mary Duncan 1734 - 1788 b: Bef. 1734 in Culpeper Co., Va. d: Aft. 06/07/1788 ............ 3 Richard Hackley 1713 - b: Aft. 1713 ............ 3 John Hackley 1720 - 1768 b: Bef. 1720 in King George Co., Virginia d: 10/1768 in King George Co., Virginia ................ +Judith Ball 1718 - 1772 b: 1718 in Culpeper Co., Virginia d: 1772 ............ 3 [2] Ellen Hackley 1714 - 1790 b: Abt. 1714 in King George Co., Virginia d: Abt. 1790 in Culpepper Co., Virginia ................ +Robert Doniphan 1694 - 1743 b: Abt. 1694 d: 10/03/1743 in King George Co., Va. ............ *2nd Husband of [2] Ellen Hackley: ................ +George "Thomas" Stubblefield 1712 - 1757 b: 1712 in Gloucester Co., Virginia d: 1757 in Culpeper Co., Va. ............ *3rd Husband of [2] Ellen Hackley: ................ +William Underwood IV 1720 - 1774 b: Abt. 1720 d: 1774 in Culpepper Co., Virginia ..... 2 Joseph Hackley 1689 - 1788 b: Abt. 1689 d: Bef. 1788 in Culpeper Co., Va. ..... 2 Agnes Hackley 1686 - 1721 b: Aft. 1686 in Essex Co., Virginia d: Aft. 1721 in Culpeper Co., Virginia ......... +John Butler 1680 - 1717 b: Abt. 1680 d: 1717 in Essex Co., Virginia ............ 3 James Butler ............ 3 Elizabeth Butler ............ 3 Margarett Butler ..... 2 Elizabeth Hackley 1686 - 1751 b: Bet. 1686 - 1697 d: Abt. 1751 in Spotsylvania Co., Virginia ......... +Mr. Gray ..... 2 Mary Elizabeth Hackley 1686 - 1751 b: 1686 in Rappahannock/Essex Co., Virginia d: 04/02/1751 in Spotsylvania Co., Virginia ......... +Thomas Warren 1658 - 1749 b: Abt. 1658 in old Rappahannock Co., Va. d: Bet. 04/13/1749 - 12/04/1750 in Spotsylvania Co., Virginia ............ 3 Mary Warren 1701 - 1720 b: Aft. 1701 d: 12/29/1720 ................ +Thomas(Sr.) Buford ............ 3 Elizabeth Warren 1717 - 1760 b: Abt. 1717 d: Abt. 1760 in Frederick Co., Virginia ................ +Matthew Brooks 1700 - 1780 b: Abt. 1700 d: Abt. 1780 ............ 3 Lancelot Warren 1701 - b: Aft. 1701 ............ 3 Rachel Warren 1701 - b: Aft. 1701 ................ +John Askew ............ 3 Roxanna Warren 1701 - b: Aft. 1701 ............ 3 [3] Hackley Warren 1723 - 1807 b: 1723 in Spotsylvania Co., Va. d: 06/10/1807 in Spartanburg, SC ................ +Sarah Shipp 1732 - 1800 b: 1732 d: 10/29/1800 ............ *2nd Wife of [3] Hackley Warren: ................ +Sarah Shipp 1724 - 1800 b: 1724 in Caroline Co., Virginia d: 10/29/1800 in North Carolina ****************************************************** Will dated 1/31/1750, probated 4/2/1751. Name was also spelled Warrin. Spotsylvania Co. Rec D.B. D1742-51, p 184[reeds.FBK] WARREN, THOMAS, Planter, Spotsylvania Co., d. Apr. 13, 1749, p. Dec. 4, 1750. Wit. Robert Huddlestone, Abram Rogers, Barbara Rogers. Ex. wife, Mary and son, Hackley Warren. Leg. son, Hackley Warren, Charlene REEDS-EBELING In a message dated 10/29/2012 2:51:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [1]jim4bartletts@verizon.net writes: Charlie, Thanks a bunch. I'm anxious to learn if Thomas WARREN and Mary HACKLEY had a daughter Elizabeth m Jacob BROOKS. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-N[2]ORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:jim4bartletts@verizon.net 2. mailto:ORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com

Jim Maybe you could convince the LOC to have a genealogy sleep in tonight so you would be off the streets<grin> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jim Bartlett <jim4bartletts@verizon.net>wrote: > We are hunkering down in DC in moderate rain now -- Douglas Burnett Satellite Beach FL As a member of the Association of Professional Genealogists (APG), the National Genealogical Society (NGS), the Florida State Genealogical Society(FSGS) and the Virginia Genealogical Society(VGS), I support and adhere to the APG's Code of Ethics.

The following is of interest as well as it actually connects Vesey to Gosnold & Ball (specifically Roger Ball of Hadleigh).   1559 Will of Robert Vesey (Source:  Suffolk Manorial Families, Being the County Visitations and Other ..., Volume 1 edited by Joseph James Muskett): Robert Vesey of Hadley in the countye of Suffolk, clothier, 11 Octr 1559. To the children of William Vesey by his first and second wives, when of age. To the children of Lawrence Vezey, viz, :—Abram, Isaacke, and Laurance when twenty four, and to Rose, Dorathe, Margaret, Anne, Alice and Marye Vesey, when twenty years of age. To John Smith, sonne of William Smith of Hadley: Anthony Gosnold, sonne of Robert Gosnold, late of Ottley: Alice Gosnold my maide: Judith Gosnold daughter of said Robert: Elizabeth Smith, dwelling with me, daughter of John Smith of Elmsett: Roger Ball of Hadleigh my kinsman: Katherine Cole, daughter of Rose Cole. To William Vesey my sonne my lands in Leigham. To Arture Vesey my sonne the howso I dwell in for life; then to Robert Vesey his sonne , then, for lack of sonnes to said Arthur and Robert, to Laurence Vesey* sonne late of Laurence Vesey sonne of me ) and then, failing issue males, to Isaacke Vesey. Lands to Arthur Vesey for life, then to Robert Vesey his eldest sonne. To the said Arthur Vesey lands in Roydon. To Dorathe Vesey daughter of William Vesey. To Laurence Smith, sonne of John Smith, lands in Roydon. To William Vesey sonne of William Vesey; Ingelbrighte Smithe, sonne of John Smith of Elmsett: Henry Vesey sonne of William Vesey: Robert Smith sonne of John Smith of Elmsett: Edward Smith sonne of John Smith of Elmsett; John Gosnold sonne of Robert Gosnold late of Ottley: William and John Gosnold, also sonnes of the said Robert: John Smith sonne of John Smith of Hadley; and Robert Smith th'elder. sonne of John Smith of Elmsett. Probate 7 May 1561 Juramento Willmi Vesey executoris. Cur. Pncrog. Cant. 16 Loftus.

Craig,   You’re right in that I should have listed William Ball, I & Hannah Atherold.    However, I wasn’t sure how conclusive the evidence is for this marriage to Hannah Atherold, and I also wasn’t entirely confident of my own data on William Ball, I as far as dates were concerned (I had more concrete data on William Ball, II who married Margaret Williamson).   I don’t know if there is documentation to support it, but I have seen Hannah Atherold listed as the daughter of Thomas Atherold and Mary Vesey (Atherold was a Suffolk, England family).    I have always found this supposed Vesey connection intriguing as I see this surname elsewhere.   For instance, the Dameron Family Association has conducted research (led by John Dameron whose sister Syl Vaden is a member of this List) of the Damerons in Suffolk, England and found a marriage record for George Dameron to Elizabeth Gosnold in 1555 in Suffolk, England.   George Dameron & Elizabeth Gosnold (married 1555) may possibly be the great-grandparents of emigrant ancestor Lawrence Dameron who was married to Dorothy MNU.   It appears this Elizabeth Gosnold who married George Dameron in 1555 was the daughter of Edmund Gosnold and Grace MNU.   Edmund Gosnold had nephew Robert Gosnold who married Mary Vesey.    This Robert Gosnold and Mary Vesey are ancestors of Bartholomew Gosnold, the Jamestowne founder.   Lazarus Taylor of Northumberland Co., VA supposedly married Mary Vesey.   I don’t have proof, but suspect that this Lazarus Taylor is a brother (or related somehow)  of the widow Elizabeth Dennis who married George Dameron, son of emigrant ancestor Lawrence Dameron (I descend from two of the sons of emigrant Lawrence Dameron & Dorothy MNU – Bartholomew who married Elizabeth Garlington and George who married widow Elizabeth Dennis).   Anyway, this brings us back to a question previously discussed on this List.   Where is the English home of the William Ball, I family?   Suffolk or perhaps even Norfolk seem to me to be likely locations.   Here is an excerpt from the William & Mary Quarterly on this subject:   http://www.jstor.org/stable/1915162   Thanks. David From: Craig Kilby <persisto1@gmail.com> To: va-northern-neck@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Revised Patriarch List Just wondering here why David isn't using the emigrant, William-1 Ball instead of his son William-2. Might make more sense if he did this: BALL, William 1650-1680 Lancaster: David Brown WILLIAMSON, James 1600s Essex: David Brown I'd be tempted to add: ATHEROLD, Hannah d 1695 Lancaster (widow of William-1 Ball): David Brown 

Craig,   You’re right in that I should have listed William Ball, I & Hannah Atherold.    However, I wasn’t sure how conclusive the evidence is for this marriage to Hannah Atherold, and I also wasn’t entirely confident of my own data on William Ball, I as far as dates were concerned (I had more concrete data on William Ball, II who married Margaret Williamson).   I don’t know if there is documentation to support it, but I have seen Hannah Atherold listed as the daughter of Thomas Atherold and Mary Vesey (Atherold was a Suffolk, England family).    I have always found this supposed Vesey connection intriguing as I see this surname elsewhere.   For instance, the Dameron Family Association has conducted research (led by John Dameron whose sister Syl Vaden is a member of this List) of the Damerons in Suffolk, England and found a marriage record for George Dameron to Elizabeth Gosnold in 1555 in Suffolk, England.   George Dameron & Elizabeth Gosnold (married 1555) may possibly be the great-grandparents of emigrant ancestor Lawrence Dameron who was married to Dorothy MNU.   It appears this Elizabeth Gosnold who married George Dameron in 1555 was the daughter of Edmund Gosnold and Grace MNU.   Edmund Gosnold had nephew Robert Gosnold who married Mary Vesey.    This Robert Gosnold and Mary Vesey are ancestors of Bartholomew Gosnold, the Jamestowne founder.   Lazarus Taylor of Northumberland Co., VA supposedly married Mary Vesey.   I don’t have proof, but suspect that this Lazarus Taylor is a brother (or related somehow)  of the widow Elizabeth Dennis who married George Dameron, son of emigrant ancestor Lawrence Dameron (I descend from two of the sons of emigrant Lawrence Dameron & Dorothy MNU – Bartholomew who married Elizabeth Garlington and George who married widow Elizabeth Dennis).   Anyway, this brings us back to a question previously discussed on this List.   Where is the English home of the William Ball, I family?   Suffolk or perhaps even Norfolk seem to me to be likely locations.   Here is an excerpt from the William & Mary Quarterly on this subject:   http://www.jstor.org/stable/1915162   Thanks. David   P.S. The following is of interest as well as it actually connects Vesey to Gosnold & Ball (specifically Roger Ball of Hadleigh).   1559 Will of Robert Vesey (Source:  Suffolk Manorial Families, Being the County Visitations and Other ..., Volume 1 edited by Joseph James Muskett): Robert Vesey of Hadley in the countye of Suffolk, clothier, 11 Octr 1559. To the children of William Vesey by his first and second wives, when of age. To the children of Lawrence Vezey, viz, :—Abram, Isaacke, and Laurance when twenty four, and to Rose, Dorathe, Margaret, Anne, Alice and Marye Vesey, when twenty years of age. To John Smith, sonne of William Smith of Hadley: Anthony Gosnold, sonne of Robert Gosnold, late of Ottley: Alice Gosnold my maide: Judith Gosnold daughter of said Robert: Elizabeth Smith, dwelling with me, daughter of John Smith of Elmsett: Roger Ball of Hadleigh my kinsman: Katherine Cole, daughter of Rose Cole. To William Vesey my sonne my lands in Leigham. To Arture Vesey my sonne the howso I dwell in for life; then to Robert Vesey his sonne , then, for lack of sonnes to said Arthur and Robert, to Laurence Vesey* sonne late of Laurence Vesey sonne of me ) and then, failing issue males, to Isaacke Vesey. Lands to Arthur Vesey for life, then to Robert Vesey his eldest sonne. To the said Arthur Vesey lands in Roydon. To Dorathe Vesey daughter of William Vesey. To Laurence Smith, sonne of John Smith, lands in Roydon. To William Vesey sonne of William Vesey; Ingelbrighte Smithe, sonne of John Smith of Elmsett: Henry Vesey sonne of William Vesey: Robert Smith sonne of John Smith of Elmsett: Edward Smith sonne of John Smith of Elmsett; John Gosnold sonne of Robert Gosnold late of Ottley: William and John Gosnold, also sonnes of the said Robert: John Smith sonne of John Smith of Hadley; and Robert Smith th'elder. sonne of John Smith of Elmsett. Probate 7 May 1561 Juramento Willmi Vesey executoris. Cur. Pncrog. Cant. 16 Loftus.   From: Craig Kilby persisto1@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Revised Patriarch List Just wondering here why David isn't using the emigrant, William-1 Ball instead of his son William-2. Might make more sense if he did this: BALL, William 1650-1680 Lancaster: David Brown WILLIAMSON, James 1600s Essex: David Brown I'd be tempted to add: ATHEROLD, Hannah d 1695 Lancaster (widow of William-1 Ball): David Brown

WARRENs. You've found a cousin, Jim. Finally I may get to help someone else. Will get back to late this evening or tomorrow. Dinner at a daughter's house this evening. I descend from John and Rachel WILLIAMS WARREN. I have Rachel's will, and we think she was the d/o of John WILLIAMS, but that's still written in pencil. Then Thomas & Mary HACKLEY. Later. Charlie Weaver On 10/29/2012 12:18 PM, Jim Bartlett wrote: I descend a NN WARREN line, and a new Family Finder match does, too. I'm trying to connect the two lines, and need some WARREN help. If this works out, I'll enter it all into the NN Tree. My line is: John WARREN b 1640 Rappahannock Co, VA; d 1691 Westmoreland Co, VA; m Rachel (SERGENT or WILLIAMS) [anyone know which is correct?] dau: Margaret WARREN b 1674 Essex Co, VA; d 1764 Culpeper Co, VA m Samuel HAMM 1671-1737, etc. my match has an ancestor: Elizabeth WARREN b 1710 Middlesex Co, VA; d 1735 Spotsylvania Co, VA; m Jacob BROOKS I believe Elizabeth's parents are Thomas WARREN m Mary Elizabeth HACKLEY; and Thomas is son of John WARREN b 1640 above Does anyone have the WARREN line who can confirm, or debunk, this info? If confirmed my match and I would be 9th cousins from John and Rachel Thanks, Jim Bartlett ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [1]VA-NORTHERN-NECK-reque st@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject a nd the body of the message -- Charlie Weaver Winston-Salem, NC 336-765-9635 References 1. mailto:VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com

Charlie, Thanks a bunch. I'm anxious to learn if Thomas WARREN and Mary HACKLEY had a daughter Elizabeth m Jacob BROOKS. Enjoy the evening. We are hunkering down in DC in moderate rain now, awaiting our Halloween Trick. Jim Bartlett On 10/29/12, Charlie Weaver<patchas@triad.rr.com> wrote: WARRENs. You've found a cousin, Jim. Finally I may get to help someone else. Will get back to late this evening or tomorrow. Dinner at a daughter's house this evening. I descend from John and Rachel WILLIAMS WARREN. I have Rachel's will, and we think she was the d/o of John WILLIAMS, but that's still written in pencil. Then Thomas & Mary HACKLEY. Later. Charlie Weaver On 10/29/2012 12:18 PM, Jim Bartlett wrote: I descend a NN WARREN line, and a new Family Finder match does, too. I'm trying to connect the two lines, and need some WARREN help. If this works out, I'll enter it all into the NN Tree. My line is: John WARREN b 1640 Rappahannock Co, VA; d 1691 Westmoreland Co, VA; m Rachel (SERGENT or WILLIAMS) [anyone know which is correct?] dau: Margaret WARREN b 1674 Essex Co, VA; d 1764 Culpeper Co, VA m Samuel HAMM 1671-1737, etc. my match has an ancestor: Elizabeth WARREN b 1710 Middlesex Co, VA; d 1735 Spotsylvania Co, VA; m Jacob BROOKS I believe Elizabeth's parents are Thomas WARREN m Mary Elizabeth HACKLEY; and Thomas is son of John WARREN b 1640 above Does anyone have the WARREN line who can confirm, or debunk, this info? If confirmed my match and I would be 9th cousins from John and Rachel Thanks, Jim Bartlett ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [1]VA-NORTHERN-NECK-reque [1]st@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject a nd the body of the message -- Charlie Weaver Winston-Salem, NC 336-765-9635 References 1. [2]mailto:VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-N[3]ORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message References 1. mailto:st@rootsweb.com 2. mailto:VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com 3. mailto:ORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com

I descend a NN WARREN line, and a new Family Finder match does, too. I'm trying to connect the two lines, and need some WARREN help. If this works out, I'll enter it all into the NN Tree. My line is: John WARREN b 1640 Rappahannock Co, VA; d 1691 Westmoreland Co, VA; m Rachel (SERGENT or WILLIAMS) [anyone know which is correct?] dau: Margaret WARREN b 1674 Essex Co, VA; d 1764 Culpeper Co, VA m Samuel HAMM 1671-1737, etc. my match has an ancestor: Elizabeth WARREN b 1710 Middlesex Co, VA; d 1735 Spotsylvania Co, VA; m Jacob BROOKS I believe Elizabeth's parents are Thomas WARREN m Mary Elizabeth HACKLEY; and Thomas is son of John WARREN b 1640 above Does anyone have the WARREN line who can confirm, or debunk, this info? If confirmed my match and I would be 9th cousins from John and Rachel Thanks, Jim Bartlett

Good morning, I could use some help and in turn I think I have some information that may be helpful to other researchers on this list. SMC=St. Mary's County, Maryland. The will of Dr. James Armstrong names his daughter Christian Crabb: Will of Dr. James Armstrong, SMC 11/6/1762-9/5/1764. Daughter: Catherine Crane, 1 shilling. Daughter: Christian Crabb, 1 shilling. Son: Robert, mare. Son: John, heifer. Son: George, heifer and calf. Wife: Dinah, a mare; a negro man George and mulatto boy Harry; after her death to be divided amongst my five children: James, Robert, John, George, and Helen Armstrong. Exec: Wife, Dinah. Wit: Matthew Hager, Eleanor Hagan. (Maryland Calendar of Wills). Then we have the will of Robert Armstrong, son of Dr. James Armstrong, in which he names the grandson and children of his sister Christian McKenny. Will of Robert Armstrong, SMC, 11/1/1814-2/14/1815. Nephew: George Armstrong, my four lots to the west of Fort Cumberland which fell to me by the death of my brother, George Armstrong. To: Sarah Armstrong Wherritt, widow of John Wherritt, negro girls named Terry, Grace, Mary, and Jane and $300 of the second money arising from my estate. To: Ann Wherritt, daughter of Sarah Wherritt, two negro girls named Betty and Seinai. Nephew: James Armstrong Crane, all of my wearing apparel of every kind without appointment. Nephew: Robert Armstrong, all of my silver plate. Niece: Diana Boult, negroes named Hannah, Louisa, Young Charles, and Lewis and $400 of the first money arising from my estate. Executor: $150 for his trouble in appraising, selling, and finally settling my estate. To: Henry Hebb, son of my niece, Ann Hebb, $200. To: Elliott Porter, grandson of my sister, Christian McKenny, $200 of the third money arising from my estate. The land where I now live is to be sold at public sale. One third of the purchase money is to be paid the day of the sale; one third of the purchase money is to be paid 12 months after the sale; and the remaining one third of the purchase money is to be paid two years after the day of sale. The two last payments are to bear interest. The remaining part of my personal estate is to be sold at public sale on a credit of six months on all sums above $20. The purchasers are to pay interest and to secure payment. None of the negroes are to be sold out of the county. The money from the sale of my land, personal estate, and debts due to me are to be divided equally among the three children of my sister, Katherine Crane, namely James Armstrong Crane, Helen Crane, and Robert Crane, and the five children of my sister, Christian McKenny, namely Gerard McKenny, Diana McKenny, Katherine McKenny, Sarah McKenny, and Armstrong McKenny. My Executor is make payments at the end of each six months until the estate is distributed and finally settled. Exec.: Nephew, James Armstrong Crane. Wit.: James Richardson, Jr., Langley Biscoe, Thomas Swann. (St. Mary's County, Maryland Wills, 1803-1820 by Linda Reno). The Crabb and McKinney folks were from Westmoreland Co., VA. Who were the husbands of Christian Armstrong and can anyone provide any information on her children? Linda Reno

I'll list Robert SMITH with both counties. I'd prefer to only list the Partiarch of each surname line (and only ancestors of DNA participants). The objective is to have a useful list for DNA participants, particularly if there is overlap; not to list all NN Patriarchs. Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 27, 2012, at 1:23 PM, Craig Kilby <persisto1@gmail.com> wrote: > Two comments/questions here. As we all well know, to every rule there is an exception, except in genealogy that old saying should could well read "to every exception there is a rule" > > On Oct 25, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Jim Bartlett wrote: > > | BALL, William 1641-1694 Lancaster: David Brown > > Just wondering here why David isn't using the emigrant, William-1 Ball instead of his son William-2. Might make more sense if he did this: > > BALL, William 1650-1680 Lancaster: David Brown > WILLIAMSON, James 1600s Essex: David Brown > > I'd be tempted to add: > > ATHEROLD, Hannah d 1695 Lancaster (widow of William-1 Ball): David Brown > > Her family name is an open question, but the Joseph Ball Letter Book says he (Joseph) recalled seeing an old family bible giving this as her name, and requested his overseer and nephew Joseph Chinn to look it up. We have no record if he ever did. > > But, in this way he would be capturing both generations of Balls. There are surely many more NN surnames down the line and I don't know if he has added them to the list. > >> SMITH, Robert d 1661 Westmoreland: Donald E King > > Well, technically, Robert Smith died in Northumberland County, though in 1664 the boundary was adjusted placing Robert Smith's land in Westmoreland County. All of main his records are in Northumberland County. But he came here via St. Mary's County Maryland. Tough one on how to describe. Will leave it our leader here. > > Craig > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Actually almost all atDNA Common Ancestors are 2 parents - two of their children are the ancestors of the 2 living folks with matching DNA. We cannot tell which of the 2 parents provided the shared DNA segment. To make it easy, we tend to list the Patriarch (who is known in most cases). So this is why we call it the Patriarch list (an extension of the surname list). Listing all of the wives almost doubles the list, without adding much value in spotting the Common Ancestor. There are a few cases where a Matriarch is known, but her father is not. These cases should be added if that is essential to finding the Common Ancestor. Our objective here is not to be technically correct, or to be 100% correct. The objective with this list is to provide a reasonable list of folks who might be Common Ancestors, without making the list so long that it becomes unwieldy. This is why it is also limited to NN Ancestors of folks who are in the NN DNA project. Jim - Sent from my iPhone - FaceTime! On Oct 27, 2012, at 2:15 PM, Craig Kilby <persisto1@gmail.com> wrote: > Since this will be an atDNA project, perhaps the title of this should read "Patriarchs and Matriarchs" > > On Oct 25, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Jim Bartlett wrote: > >> >> Here's the latest list. I > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to VA-NORTHERN-NECK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Since this will be an atDNA project, perhaps the title of this should read "Patriarchs and Matriarchs" On Oct 25, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Jim Bartlett wrote: > > Here's the latest list. I

Two comments/questions here. As we all well know, to every rule there is an exception, except in genealogy that old saying should could well read "to every exception there is a rule" On Oct 25, 2012, at 2:40 PM, Jim Bartlett wrote: | BALL, William 1641-1694 Lancaster: David Brown Just wondering here why David isn't using the emigrant, William-1 Ball instead of his son William-2. Might make more sense if he did this: BALL, William 1650-1680 Lancaster: David Brown WILLIAMSON, James 1600s Essex: David Brown I'd be tempted to add: ATHEROLD, Hannah d 1695 Lancaster (widow of William-1 Ball): David Brown Her family name is an open question, but the Joseph Ball Letter Book says he (Joseph) recalled seeing an old family bible giving this as her name, and requested his overseer and nephew Joseph Chinn to look it up. We have no record if he ever did. But, in this way he would be capturing both generations of Balls. There are surely many more NN surnames down the line and I don't know if he has added them to the list. > SMITH, Robert d 1661 Westmoreland: Donald E King Well, technically, Robert Smith died in Northumberland County, though in 1664 the boundary was adjusted placing Robert Smith's land in Westmoreland County. All of main his records are in Northumberland County. But he came here via St. Mary's County Maryland. Tough one on how to describe. Will leave it our leader here. Craig

Don, excellent point and I too was surprised to see a savvy research like Robert Grant overlook this important detail. I reminds me a recent post on "The Legal Genealogist" about the importance of reading the INSTRUCTIONS to the census takers on the various censuses (or is that "censi?"). In her example, it had to with Native American ancestry and codes that the people in Washington, D. C. assigned to them after they were returned. But the lesson remains the same. Good post, Don. On Oct 27, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Wilson, Donald L wrote: > There seem to be a number of researchers who have misinterpreted early > Virginia birth records in the way Mr. Grant has. A few published > abstracts have done that. I would say unless he has additional > evidence to the contrary, the record is only showing that Richard Jordan > Wright is the owner of those slaves, NOT their father. > > The headings for the Virginia birth registers (beginning in 1853) are > (with an example from Prince William): > Date of birth: June 1853. > Name of child: Louisa, > White / Colored: If colored whether Free or Slave: S[lave] > Male or Female: Female. > Born alive or dead: A[live] > Place of birth: Prince William County. > Father's name (if child be free and born in wedlock) or name of owner > (if child be born a slave): Wm. J. Weir. > Father's occupation: [blank] > Father's residence: [blank] > Mother: Lucy Fields (slave). [Note: Since the mother has a surname, > her status is included so there is no doubt she is a slave] > How many at a birth? 1. > Informant: Wm. J. Weir, owner. > > Notice that the register does not ask for the father's name if the child > is a slave or is born out of wedlock. >

Craig, specifically, with Rawleigh and Margaret, can you specify in the "alleged" marriage date.... Bef 1723 and then make a notation NOT married in a comment line or something. I haven't gone in yet to look for myself. Between 1721-1732 was when Rawleigh and Margaret were charged/sited with all their offenses AND was the time frame of the birth of their boys. Aside from the "Unhappy Life of Easter Ball" I have copies of the originals where Easter filed for alimony and put a restraining order on Rawleigh that he not be allowed to sell her dad's property without her first being heard. It is dated 12 Sept. 1722. So we know that he was kinoodling with Margaret prior to that date but I think "bef 1723" would suffice as a date with additionally comment on NOT married. When I go in to look at it I will attach those documents. Janean -----Original Message----- From: va-northern-neck-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:va-northern-neck-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Craig Kilby Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 10:06 PM To: va-northern-neck@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Illegal Marriages, How to Handle Jim, this is exactly how I've been doing it. I just wish it could be more self-explanatory. But, it is what it is. I put all of this stuff in the "description box" and if need, in comments and then, if I am really moved, as uploaded files. But still, the main frame just says, for example, that Rawleigh Chinn married (2) Margaret Ball widow of Rawleigh Downman when in fact that was never the case.

Don and Craig, Thank you very much for those comments and insights. Don may well be right that I have misinterpreted the records. I double checked the Rockbridge birth registers that I have for 1853 and 1857 and the column heading reads as Don listed it, but in different ways on different pages and years: "Father's name in full if child be born free or owner's name if slave" "Father's name in full, if child be born in wedlock" "Father's name in full if child free and born in wedlock or name of owner if child be born a slave" Whatever way the headings are listed, the labeling indicates that Don may be correct that the birth listings were of Richard Jordan Wright as owner of a slave and not as the father of the slave. But I do not have copies of the birth registers for the Richard Jordan Wright slave births and so have ordered them from the Library to check them out and be sure how they read. My source for this record includes _Rockbridge County, Births, 1853-1877,_ abstracted by Dorthie and Edwin Kirkpatrick, Iberian Publishing Company, 1988, which listed the births as follows: "Wright, William* Mar 1853 [SMA] Rockbridge Co.; Vina* & Richard J. Wright (-, Rockbridge Co.) reported by Richard J. Wright, owner . . . . Wright, Simon* Oct 1853 [SMA] Rockbridge Co.; Casander* & Richard J. Wright (-, Rockbridge Co.) reported by Richard J. Wright/ owner . . . . [and similarly for the others]" This may be the abstract Don was referring to and this listing might also be a misreading of the birth register of Richard J. Wright as the father rather than the owner. So thank you for bringing this to my attention and I will report back when I get the original documents. And thanks for the kind description of "savvy researcher", but perhaps not so savvy if I got this wrong. :-) Best wishes, Bob Grant On 10/27/2012 9:42 AM, Craig Kilby wrote: > Don, excellent point and I too was surprised to see a savvy research like Robert Grant overlook this important detail. I reminds me a recent post on "The Legal Genealogist" about the importance of reading the INSTRUCTIONS to the census takers on the various censuses (or is that "censi?"). In her example, it had to with Native American ancestry and codes that the people in Washington, D. C. assigned to them after they were returned. But the lesson remains the same. > > Good post, Don. > On Oct 27, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Wilson, Donald L wrote: > >> There seem to be a number of researchers who have misinterpreted early >> Virginia birth records in the way Mr. Grant has. A few published >> abstracts have done that. I would say unless he has additional >> evidence to the contrary, the record is only showing that Richard Jordan >> Wright is the owner of those slaves, NOT their father. >> >> The headings for the Virginia birth registers (beginning in 1853) are >> (with an example from Prince William): >> Date of birth: June 1853. >> Name of child: Louisa, >> White / Colored: If colored whether Free or Slave: S[lave] >> Male or Female: Female. >> Born alive or dead: A[live] >> Place of birth: Prince William County. >> Father's name (if child be free and born in wedlock) or name of owner >> (if child be born a slave): Wm. J. Weir. >> Father's occupation: [blank] >> Father's residence: [blank] >> Mother: Lucy Fields (slave). [Note: Since the mother has a surname, >> her status is included so there is no doubt she is a slave] >> How many at a birth? 1. >> Informant: Wm. J. Weir, owner. >> >> Notice that the register does not ask for the father's name if the child >> is a slave or is born out of wedlock. >> > > > >