Since interest has risen again on this subject I will see what I can find out. Janean -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Craig Kilby Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 7:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Allerton/Newton IT was Janean who stated a new "conclusive" article was to have been published a year ago, May 2010, by the New England magazine. Likewise, I never saw it. Since then, I have worked on more than a few projects where these people pop up. Some of these researchers are preparing their own articles for publication, and my own role in the research has only been ancillary, so I am reluctant to speak out. I will, say, however, that Dr. Newman Hall was in error in some of his conclusions. I am looking forward to reading the "conclusive" review supposed to have been published a year ago. In the meantime, I have learned of other (totally different) migrations from New England to Virginia (e.g Claud Vallott from New Jersey to Middlesex, VA). It's always important to leave no stone unturned. Craig On Apr 4, 2011, at 5:41 PM, Kathleen Much wrote: > A long time ago now, we had a polite controversy on this list about the > children of Isaac Allerton and Elizabeth Willoughby (widow of Simon Overzee > and George Colclough). > > At the time, some list members denied that Isaac and Elizabeth had a > daughter Mary who married John Newton and had sons William and Allerton > Newton. The explanation given for rejecting Charles Cochran's reasoning > (adopted by _Adventurers of Purse and Person_) was that the NEHGS believed > that Sarah Allerton had married a Newton before she married Hancock Lee > about 1696. John Newton d. before 29 Oct 1699. > > Supposedly an article spelling out the details of the NEHGS's conclusion > were to be published last year. I have not yet heard of any such publication > (I'm not a member). If any of our listmates is a member, could you please > let me know where to look for such an article if one was indeed published? > > Kathleen Much ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm a member of NEHGS. I checked the table of contents for the Register from 2007 until the latest issue in January 2011. Alas, no such article. Linda Hughes On Apr 4, 2011, at 5:41 PM, Kathleen Much wrote: > A long time ago now, we had a polite controversy on this list about the > children of Isaac Allerton and Elizabeth Willoughby (widow of Simon Overzee > and George Colclough)........Supposedly an article spelling out the details of the NEHGS's conclusion > were to be published last year. I have not yet heard of any such publication > (I'm not a member). If any of our listmates is a member, could you please > let me know where to look for such an article if one was indeed published? > > Kathleen Much > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

IT was Janean who stated a new "conclusive" article was to have been published a year ago, May 2010, by the New England magazine. Likewise, I never saw it. Since then, I have worked on more than a few projects where these people pop up. Some of these researchers are preparing their own articles for publication, and my own role in the research has only been ancillary, so I am reluctant to speak out. I will, say, however, that Dr. Newman Hall was in error in some of his conclusions. I am looking forward to reading the "conclusive" review supposed to have been published a year ago. In the meantime, I have learned of other (totally different) migrations from New England to Virginia (e.g Claud Vallott from New Jersey to Middlesex, VA). It's always important to leave no stone unturned. Craig On Apr 4, 2011, at 5:41 PM, Kathleen Much wrote: > A long time ago now, we had a polite controversy on this list about the > children of Isaac Allerton and Elizabeth Willoughby (widow of Simon Overzee > and George Colclough). > > At the time, some list members denied that Isaac and Elizabeth had a > daughter Mary who married John Newton and had sons William and Allerton > Newton. The explanation given for rejecting Charles Cochran's reasoning > (adopted by _Adventurers of Purse and Person_) was that the NEHGS believed > that Sarah Allerton had married a Newton before she married Hancock Lee > about 1696. John Newton d. before 29 Oct 1699. > > Supposedly an article spelling out the details of the NEHGS's conclusion > were to be published last year. I have not yet heard of any such publication > (I'm not a member). If any of our listmates is a member, could you please > let me know where to look for such an article if one was indeed published? > > Kathleen Much

Thanks Kathleen.   I'm not sure why the question marks appear either as they were not intended on my part.   It must be something strange with Rootsweb although I noticed that the message looks okay on the Rootsweb archives.   --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Kathleen Much <[email protected]> wrote: From: Kathleen Much <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] Question Regarding Ursula BYSSHE To: [email protected] Date: Monday, April 4, 2011, 4:04 PM I don't know why David's message got transmitted with a bunch of question marks, but his information is correct. All of Ursula Bish's children were by her first husband, and as far as I know all of John Mottram's were by his (unknown) first wife. In 1649/50 Henry Poole witnessed a deed of gift from Mrs. Ursula Thompson in Elizabeth City Co. In his deposition he says that Mrs. Ursula Thompson gave her son Richard stock, her daughter Sarah stock, and her daughter Elizabeth stock. Mr. Jno Mottrom was present, and the gifts were in Eliz. City Co. Deposition dated 27 Sept. 1658. Source:  Northumbria Collectanea 1645-1720 M-Z. Beverly Fleet. Page 591. Carolyn Jett told me: "Colonel John Mottrom had a first wife whose name has not been discovered. She appears to have been the mother of his three children:  Ann Mottrom, John Mottrom, and Frances Mottrom. (Somewhere in my files I have their ages at the time of the Colonel's death. After the death of his first wife, Col. Mottrom married Ursula Bish Thompson, widow of Richard Thompson. After Col. Mottrom's death, Ursula married George Colclough, who survived her.  George Colclough then married Elizabeth [Willoughby], who survived him, and married Isaac Allerton.)"

A long time ago now, we had a polite controversy on this list about the children of Isaac Allerton and Elizabeth Willoughby (widow of Simon Overzee and George Colclough). At the time, some list members denied that Isaac and Elizabeth had a daughter Mary who married John Newton and had sons William and Allerton Newton. The explanation given for rejecting Charles Cochran's reasoning (adopted by _Adventurers of Purse and Person_) was that the NEHGS believed that Sarah Allerton had married a Newton before she married Hancock Lee about 1696. John Newton d. before 29 Oct 1699. Supposedly an article spelling out the details of the NEHGS's conclusion were to be published last year. I have not yet heard of any such publication (I'm not a member). If any of our listmates is a member, could you please let me know where to look for such an article if one was indeed published? Kathleen Much

I don't know why David's message got transmitted with a bunch of question marks, but his information is correct. All of Ursula Bish's children were by her first husband, and as far as I know all of John Mottram's were by his (unknown) first wife. In 1649/50 Henry Poole witnessed a deed of gift from Mrs. Ursula Thompson in Elizabeth City Co. In his deposition he says that Mrs. Ursula Thompson gave her son Richard stock, her daughter Sarah stock, and her daughter Elizabeth stock. Mr. Jno Mottrom was present, and the gifts were in Eliz. City Co. Deposition dated 27 Sept. 1658. Source: Northumbria Collectanea 1645-1720 M-Z. Beverly Fleet. Page 591. Carolyn Jett told me: "Colonel John Mottrom had a first wife whose name has not been discovered. She appears to have been the mother of his three children: Ann Mottrom, John Mottrom, and Frances Mottrom. (Somewhere in my files I have their ages at the time of the Colonel's death. After the death of his first wife, Col. Mottrom married Ursula Bish Thompson, widow of Richard Thompson. After Col. Mottrom's death, Ursula married George Colclough, who survived her. George Colclough then married Elizabeth [Willoughby], who survived him, and married Isaac Allerton.)" On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 12:01 AM, David Brown wrote: > I think the best source of information for Ursula Bysshe is?an > excellent?book?by Alice Wright Algood.?? According to Algood, all of > Ursula's children?were by her first husband Richard Thompson whom she > married in 1641 in Maryland.?? These children included Elizabeth Thompson > who married Peter Presley and Sarah Thompson who married Thomas > Willoughby.?? Apparently, there was also a son named Richard who died > young.?? Ursula Bysshe was married three times -- first to Richard Thompson, > then to John Mottram, and then finally to George Colclough (who, after > Ursula's death, married Elizabeth Willoughby Oversee, the sister of Thomas > Willoughby who married Ursula's daughter Sarah). >

Good fortune brought Bob Lumsden to the MBW on Saturday, soon after I had received Mike Marshall's query about William Carter. I'm writing a new here to inform you that while doing the "Estates Project 1835-1865" in Lancaster County (this research is on line, see: mbwm.org) that several new descendants and marriages were proved in the Thomas Carter line that are NOT in the old stand-by book on this family in Miller's book. If you are "stuck" in the this time frame on a Carter line, try searching the database described above. For that matter, any family in Lancaster County 1835-1865 time period. Happy Hunting, Craig

Bob, Many thanks for your analysis. I can only add that I made a copy of the Thomas Carter Prayer Book from the Virginia Historical Society and placed in the BIBLES vertical files at the Mary Ball Washington Museum & Library. Earlier transcriptions had omitted some of the information, or transcribed it incorrectly. Craig On Apr 3, 2011, at 4:26 PM, Robert Lumsden wrote: > > Thomas Carter "of Barford" is often connected to a Carter family in Barford, Bedfordshire, England. The only suggestion of who Thomas Carter was is in his 1662 prayer book, now at The Virginia Historical Society, that identifies him as Thomas Carter of Barford, but which also identifies him only as "Thomas Carter Gent. His Book Lancaster County, Virginia." The use of the term "of Barford" does not show up in any Lancaster County records after its use in the prayer book. Whether the term refers to Barford being his place of origin, what he named his plantation in Lancaster County, or where he might have wished he was from, really isn't known in spite of it presently being considered as a connection to England.

All, Some of you were at the annual meeting of the Northumberland County Historical Society in Heathsville today. If so, you were treated to a wonderful presentation by our fellow NN list member Camille Wells on architectural and economic history of land and property development in Virginia, particularly the Northern Neck. Honestly, it was a crash course of about an entire semester of college study all in less than two hours. It went too quickly and ended to soon, but it was still superb as only a polished speaker like Camille can do. The group of about 100 people were assembled for the presentation, followed of course by delicious food and libations. This is a good time to remind our readers that the Northern Neck branch of Preservation Virginia (formerly known as APVA) has recently published a book on historic properties and sites in the Northern Neck (their boundaries include King George and Essex Counties, but not Middlesex or Stafford counties). It is available for sale at most NN museums and book stores, and of course at the Northumberland County Historical Society itself. (I personally know it to be for sale also at Mary Ball Washington Museum and the Westmoreland County Museum.) But back to Camille Wells. I don't know her policy on giving presentations, much less her schedule, but if your organization would be interested in a fascinating study of history via photographs, maps, economics and architecture, you will be more than pleased. Craig

Charlene, Slight correction here. Middlesex was formed from LANCASTER County in 1669. However, we have to back a bit further in time. When Lancaster County was created in 1651, it was formed from Northumberland (North side of the Rappahannock River) and what became Middlesex County in 1669 was taken from YORK County (South side of the River). That Christ Church Parish continues to this day in both counties--not at all connected ecclesiastically--is grounds for more confusion. In other words, to do all of your research, you will need to work in York County records until 1651, then in Lancaster County from 1651-1669, and after 1669 in Middlesex County. Of course you'll also want to throw in Essex County. This is one big reason why I included Middlesex and Essex into my definition of this Northern Neck list. One cannot really do a proper job of it unless one works in all of the counties, which as a refresher are: Northumberland (formed from Chicacoan Indian Lands in 1645) Lancaster County (formed from Northumberland and York Counties in 1651, see above) Middlesex County (formed from what had been York County, from Lancaster County, in 1669) Old Rappahannock County (Formed from Lancaster in 1656 (became Essex and Richmond Counties in 1692) Then, going up the Potomac and Rappahannock Rivers in the Northern Neck: Westmoreland County (formed 1653 from Northumberland) Stafford County formed 1664 from Westmoreland King George County formed 1721 from Richmond County And it goes on. There is a good interactive map on this somewhere. As for RHODES, yes, you will want to focus on Middlesex County. Christ Church Parish (Middlesex--not Lancaster) records are published. Great source of births, deaths and marriages. Craig On Apr 3, 2011, at 6:31 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Looking for more info and family of Christopher RHODES b 1636 Middlesex > Co., VA (has to be York. Middlesex not est. until 1669 from Northumberland > est. 1643) > Christopher m Hannah BARBEE, also born in York.

Looking for more info and family of Christopher RHODES b 1636 Middlesex Co., VA (has to be York. Middlesex not est. until 1669 from Northumberland est. 1643) Christopher m Hannah BARBEE, also born in York. I have identified one child--Hezekiah RHODES who was b c 1660 Isle of Gurnsey, England. (His parents went back to England and had a baby?) Descendants of Hezekiah Rhodes 1 Hezekiah Rhodes 1660 - 1716 b: Abt. 1660 in Isle of Gurnsey, Channel Islands, England d: Bet. 01/02/1716 - 1717 in Middlesex Co., Virginia . +Elizabeth Nicholls 1664 - 1727 b: 1664 in Middlesex Co., Virginia d: 07/18/1727 in Orange Co., Virginia .... 2 Hezekiah Rhodes 1696 - 1762 b: 04/06/1696 in Middlesex Co., Virginia d: 1762 in Orange Co., Virginia ........ +Ann Hill - 1762 d: Aft. 09/1762 .... 2 William Rhodes 1698 - 1744 b: 04/23/1698 in Middlesex Co., Virginia d: 04/1744 in Orange Co., Virginia ........ +Hannah Miller 1698 - b: Abt. 1698 Charlene REEDS-EBELING Genealogical Direct Lines: DAD'S SIDE: REEDS, PORTER, WEAVER(Tilman), RICHARDSON, BOWLING (Group 7), WOOD, ISRAEL, CRAIG, LAIRD, HACKLEY, BALL, CORBIN, ELTONHEAD, TAYLOE, WILLIAMSON, UNDERWOOD, KEENE, WITHERS, MAUZY, CONYERS, WITHERS, KEENE, DUNCAN (Joseph and Lydia-VA), SHIPPEY, MOTT, PIGG, BELL (Stone Church and Roger-Orange Co., Va), BEARD/BAIRD, CARTER (Giles and Theodorick line), WEBB, WADDILL, MICHAUX, CUNNINGHAM---VA --Plus WHITE, HAGERTY, FLATLEY--Green Bay MOMS SIDE: CORNWELL (NY), ANSCHICKS, BECKER, STEDMAN, MORSE, REITZ, BUTZ, KNAUSS, DIEHL, PATTERMAN, THULL, MEHAN, ROMIG, CARL, SIEGFRIED

In response to Mike Marshall's question about William Carter being the brother of Thomas Carter, I agree with Kathleen that we don't know how these Carter's were related, or even whether or not they were related at all. In fact, I know of no reference that proves a relationship between any of the Carter families in Colonial Virginia. If anyone does, please let me know since I have researched this for sometime now. John Carter of Corotoman might have been brother to the Thomas Carter who lived in Lancaster County until he died in late 1658 ( see Christine Jones, The early Thomas Carters of Lancaster County Virginia, mentioned earlier) but he hasn't been identified as his brother and this Thomas left no will. Capt. Thomas Carter ("of Barford") did not show up in Lancaster County until about 1663 and although often claimed as to be related to John and his son Robert 'King' Carter of Corotoman, there is no proof. In his will Robert Carter refers to Thomas Carter, Jr. collectively, along with his sons in law and others, as "friends and relations." Edward Carter, also in Lancaster County early on, may have been related, and the William Carter, subject of the query, could have also been related but I know nothing about him. The Thomas and John Carter on the ship Safety in 1635 could have been brothers and are thought to be sons of John and Bridget Carter of Christchurch Newgate, in London. In fact, this John Carter had other older sons, George and William who would have been half brothers of John and Thomas. John Carter of Newgate's will can be found in Noel Currer-Briggs book (1979) The Carter's of Virginia. Currer-Briggs' book is probably the most up to date information on the Carter families of London and vicinity. But, he even admits that "due to the destruction of records we can only speculate, but the theory that best fits the known facts suggests John [of Corotoman River] was the youngest half-brother of William. . . With so many individuals of the same name it is impossible to be certain, until or unless, new evidence hitherto not discovered comes to light." He considers Thomas Carter "of Barford" as being from another family all together, although some researchers think he might have been a son of the first Lancaster Thomas Carter. Thomas Carter "of Barford" is often connected to a Carter family in Barford, Bedfordshire, England. The only suggestion of who Thomas Carter was is in his 1662 prayer book, now at The Virginia Historical Society, that identifies him as Thomas Carter of Barford, but which also identifies him only as "Thomas Carter Gent. His Book Lancaster County, Virginia." The use of the term "of Barford" does not show up in any Lancaster County records after its use in the prayer book. Whether the term refers to Barford being his place of origin, what he named his plantation in Lancaster County, or where he might have wished he was from, really isn't known in spite of it presently being considered as a connection to England. Basically, we don't presently have proof of exactly who these Carters were. There are two Carter Y-DNA genealogy studies in progress through FamilyTreeDNA that might eventually shed light on who might be related to whom, but even that is unclear now since there are so many with the surname Carter who are definitely unrelated.. Robert Lumsden Message: 2 Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 12:43:33 -0700 From: Kathleen Much <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] William Carter - Lancaster Co. Va To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Joseph Lyon Miller, author of _The Descendants of Capt. Thomas Carter_ (Richmond, VA: Whitet & Shepperson, n.d.), didn't think that William was a brother of Thomas Carter who m. Katherine Dale. He wasn't even sure that John or Edward was, though circumstantial evidence points in that direction. I haven't seen anything linking William to the other Carters, but of course absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Miller says, pp. 9-15: "Captain Thomas Carter I of Corotoman, Lancaster County, married Katherine Dale. From the patent books Thomas Carter first appears in Virginia in 1637. He was then living in Isle of Wight County. A ship captain speaks of a Captain Thomas Carter of Nansemond on the James River as having certain tobacco. Major John Carter, Colonel Edward Carter, and Captain Thomas Carter were very closely associated in land ownership, land exchange and sale, both in Nansemond and in Lancaster. It is also interesting that all three were of about equal military rank. John, Edward, and Thomas owned land in Lancaster. John and Thomas lived on the Corotoman Creek [River]. The first land which Thomas Carter I possessed here (1657) seems to have been a purchase from Colonel John Carter. Although there is no proof that these men were related, these facts and others furnish strong evidence that they were (see Cavaliers and Pioneers, Vol. I, by Nugent). Two authorities on the Carter family indicate that they may have been brothers." On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 12:01 AM, Mike Marshall wrote: > > > Is this William the brother of Thomas Carter who married Catherine Dale? > I'm not finding him listed in the Carter books and usual places > > > > === > > 1652-1657 Lancaster County Order Book pg 290 > > Lancaster County Court 3d of September 1656 > > - Certificate of Land is granted unto Mr. WM. UNDERWOOD for the > transportacon of PETER LEONARD, MARY HAWKES, WILLM. CARTER & PAULL WOOD > accordinge to Act > > === > > 1656-1661 Lancaster County Order Book pg 166 > > Lancaster County Court 13th of November 1661 > > - Upon a peticon to this Cort: by SAM: GRIFFIN, the assignee of Capt. > RICH: HOBBS agt. the Estate of WILL: CARTER (late deced.) It is ordered > (that in respect to the Widd: & Relict of the sd. WILL: CARTER, to whom the > administracon thereof doth p:perlie belonge hath not yet administered & as > this Cort: was this day informed bath imbezelled the saide Estate, noe p:son > whatsoever intrusted wth: any pte: of the sd. Estate upon any pr:tence > whatsoever until this Cort: doe further determine therein, (but at their > owne wills) > > === > > 1656-1661 Lancaster County Order Book pg 169 > > Lancaster County Court 12th of March 1661/62 > > - Administracon accordinge to Acte is granted unto WILLIAM NESSHAM upon > the Estate of WILL: CARTER, deced., hee puttinge in securitie accordinge to > Acte. HENRY ( ) & JO: SHARPE to apprize the Estate on Saturday next and is > likewise granted to the sd: WILL: NEESHAM for 3200 lb. of tobaccoe & ca: in > the first place out of the sd. Estate > > === > > 1662-1666 Lancaster County Order Book pg 299 > > Lancaster County Court 14th of ( ) 1664 > > - Whereas SUSAN CARTER, Daughter of WILL: CARTER, deced., was by order of > this Cort., putt unto JOHN EDWARDS till she should attaine her age of one & > twentie yeres. & by the sde. EDWARDS assigned unto THO: MARSHALL, & by the > sde. MARSHALL assigned unto RICHD. MERRYMAN, It is ordered by this Cort., > that the sde. SUSAN doe continue with: the sde. RICHD; MERRYMAN till she > attaine to the age of 21 yeres, accordinge to the tenor of the order granted > to EDWARDS

Thanks Chocy & Jim. --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Chocy Brown <[email protected]> wrote: From: Chocy Brown <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] NBC Show Who Do You Think You Are & Upcoming Smithsonian Channel Program To: "Northern Neck Northern Neck" <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 3:53 PM David,      You can watch the lastest programs online at the following address. Jost Hite through his daughter, Magdalena HITE the wife of Jacob CHRISMAN are links that Tim McGRAW and I share as cousins. http://www.nbc.com/who-do-you-think-you-are/video/tim-mcgraw/1291035 Chocy > Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:49:37 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > CC: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] NBC Show Who Do You Think You Are & Upcoming Smithsonian Channel Program > > > Reruns of the show - with far fewer commercials are free at nbc.com from > your pc > Jim Bartlett >

David, You can watch the lastest programs online at the following address. Jost Hite through his daughter, Magdalena HITE the wife of Jacob CHRISMAN are links that Tim McGRAW and I share as cousins. http://www.nbc.com/who-do-you-think-you-are/video/tim-mcgraw/1291035 Chocy > Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:49:37 -0500 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > CC: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] NBC Show Who Do You Think You Are & Upcoming Smithsonian Channel Program > > > Reruns of the show - with far fewer commercials are free at nbc.com from > your pc > Jim Bartlett > > On Apr 3, 2011, DAVID BROWN <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Janean, > > I love the program, "Who Do You Think You Are." Unfortunately, it's on > Friday night, and I often miss the episodes (and I'm terrible about > setting my DVR to record -- LOL)! I noticed the last episode was on > Gwyneth Paltrow, and it looked fascinating (I missed the first half of the > program). I think there was one on Tim McGraw, which I missed too, but > sounds like it may have discussed some Northern Neck roots for him. Did > anyone catch it? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Reruns of the show - with far fewer commercials are free at nbc.com from your pc Jim Bartlett On Apr 3, 2011, DAVID BROWN <[email protected]> wrote: Hi Janean, I love the program, "Who Do You Think You Are." Unfortunately, it's on Friday night, and I often miss the episodes (and I'm terrible about setting my DVR to record -- LOL)! I noticed the last episode was on Gwyneth Paltrow, and it looked fascinating (I missed the first half of the program). I think there was one on Tim McGraw, which I missed too, but sounds like it may have discussed some Northern Neck roots for him. Did anyone catch it?

Glad I could share. This is why its always good to watch shows and/or investigate extended family lines. You never know what will crawl out from the woodwork. I love the new show "Who do you think you are". One never knows where a family connection will be found. I happened upon this information and Chinn connection while looking into WHY one of my ancestors would have gone to New Orleans as mentioned by his mother in a letter to him. I then found the Chinn's in New Orleans that had come from Kentucky where his brothers were from..... (Wilson/Chinn/Blue) lines which of course leads back to the Northern Neck and our wonderful family of Rawleigh Chinn - Easter and Margaret and only goes to prove, if you look under every stone...... you'll find a connection. Henry Clay was a mere mention in the information I found about Richard Henry Chinn. The name just stuck with me and then BINGO....... Roadshow! This is why genealogy is so fun. You never know where or how you'll find a missing piece. Always keep and opened mind and look beyond all the trees in the forest. LOL Janean

Janean, Thanks for clarification on this. Henry Clay was a of course a descendent of the emigrant John Clay, and anyone descending from that line is eligible for sundry lineage societies including yours truly (who has never acted upon it.) [This makes miss all the more the late Robert Young Clay, former cheif archivist of the Virginia State Library-now Library of Virginia. Suffice it to say I greatly miss Robert Young Clay. I'm sure many of you do too. Back to the portrait: It truly is a great piece of Americana folk art. I am very glad it is now hanging in a museum in Texas (though I think it should be hanging Kentucky, but hey, their loss) Craig On Apr 3, 2011, at 12:04 PM, Janean Ray wrote: > It wasn't owned by the museum in Texas at the time it was shown on the > Roadshow. The museum contacted the show after the fact. Here are some > notes about that. > > July 15, 2009 > > FORT WORTH, TX.- When The Illustrious Guest (1847) appeared on the PBS > program Antiques Roadshow earlier this year, appraiser Alan Fausel of the > Bonhams auction house said the painting "could hang in a museum." Now it is > on display. The 19th-century painting by James Henry Beard depicts legendary > Kentucky statesman Henry Clay (1777-1852) as a guest at a country tavern > while on the campaign trail. The work is on long-term loan to the Amon > Carter Museum by a private collector. > <snip>

It wasn't owned by the museum in Texas at the time it was shown on the Roadshow. The museum contacted the show after the fact. Here are some notes about that. July 15, 2009 FORT WORTH, TX.- When The Illustrious Guest (1847) appeared on the PBS program Antiques Roadshow earlier this year, appraiser Alan Fausel of the Bonhams auction house said the painting "could hang in a museum." Now it is on display. The 19th-century painting by James Henry Beard depicts legendary Kentucky statesman Henry Clay (1777-1852) as a guest at a country tavern while on the campaign trail. The work is on long-term loan to the Amon Carter Museum by a private collector. "I was intrigued by the painting when I saw it on the program," says Rebecca Lawton, curator of paintings and sculpture at the Amon Carter Museum . "I called Alan and asked him to pass along my contact information to the owner because I wanted to see it in person. I'm so thankful the guest had already contacted Alan, making it possible for him to connect us, because now we have the privilege of displaying this wonderful painting in our museum." The Dallas owner, who remains anonymous, brought the painting to a Dallas taping of Antiques Roadshow last summer. On the episode that aired in January, she revealed that the painting had been in her family for more than six generations, and that they likely acquired it shortly after it was painted. "It is a terrific genre subject that combines fact with fiction," Lawton says. "The setting is accurate, as Clay, a veteran campaigner, certainly would have stopped at country taverns to solicit votes during the 1844 presidential election. Beard likely imagined the painting's cast of characters, some of whom marvel at Clay's elegant attire, while others eye him warily after identifying him from the guest register. This is a perfect picture of life in antebellum America and a wonderful rediscovery."

I show Spencer Mottram m. Hannah Fox and they had Mary Mottrom (or however its spelled) Mary m. Capt. Joseph Ball and then William Loury of Essex. I have no mother's name for Spencer. Janean -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 11:32 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [VA-NORTHERN-NECK] John MOTTRAM 1590-1665 m Ursula BYSCHEE --AND?Also Nicholas SPENCER Looking for the "other wife" of John MOTTRAM. Which children belonged to which wife?? John m Ursula BYSCHEE-THOMPSON, widow of Richard after 1651 therefore Ann MOTTRAM 1639 and Frances 1645 belong to the first wife. John's son John m Hannah FOX and had a son Spencer b 1670. To whom did he belong? Another site said that all of Ursula's were by her first husband Richard THOMPSON. I do have much info on John MOTTRAM, but the above is unclear. John's daughter Frances MOTTRAM b c 1645 m Nicholas SPENCER 1633-1689, who, along with Col. John WASHINGTON, was an original owner of the site of Mount Vernon. Their daughter Lettice m a Mr. BERNARD/BARNARD/BURNARD. Anyone know his first name? I have many notes, but not the given name of Mr. BERNARD. Charlene REEDS-EBELING Genealogical Direct Lines: DAD'S SIDE: REEDS, PORTER, WEAVER(Tilman), RICHARDSON, BOWLING (Group 7), WOOD, ISRAEL, CRAIG, LAIRD, HACKLEY, BALL, CORBIN, ELTONHEAD, TAYLOE, WILLIAMSON, UNDERWOOD, KEENE, WITHERS, MAUZY, CONYERS, WITHERS, KEENE, DUNCAN (Joseph and Lydia-VA), SHIPPEY, MOTT, PIGG, BELL (Stone Church and Roger-Orange Co., Va), BEARD/BAIRD, CARTER (Giles and Theodorick line), WEBB, WADDILL, MICHAUX, CUNNINGHAM---VA --Plus WHITE, HAGERTY, FLATLEY--Green Bay MOMS SIDE: CORNWELL (NY), ANSCHICKS, BECKER, STEDMAN, MORSE, REITZ, BUTZ, KNAUSS, DIEHL, PATTERMAN, THULL, MEHAN, ROMIG, CARL, SIEGFRIED ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Looking for the "other wife" of John MOTTRAM. Which children belonged to which wife?? John m Ursula BYSCHEE-THOMPSON, widow of Richard after 1651 therefore Ann MOTTRAM 1639 and Frances 1645 belong to the first wife. John's son John m Hannah FOX and had a son Spencer b 1670. To whom did he belong? Another site said that all of Ursula's were by her first husband Richard THOMPSON. I do have much info on John MOTTRAM, but the above is unclear. John's daughter Frances MOTTRAM b c 1645 m Nicholas SPENCER 1633-1689, who, along with Col. John WASHINGTON, was an original owner of the site of Mount Vernon. Their daughter Lettice m a Mr. BERNARD/BARNARD/BURNARD. Anyone know his first name? I have many notes, but not the given name of Mr. BERNARD. Charlene REEDS-EBELING Genealogical Direct Lines: DAD'S SIDE: REEDS, PORTER, WEAVER(Tilman), RICHARDSON, BOWLING (Group 7), WOOD, ISRAEL, CRAIG, LAIRD, HACKLEY, BALL, CORBIN, ELTONHEAD, TAYLOE, WILLIAMSON, UNDERWOOD, KEENE, WITHERS, MAUZY, CONYERS, WITHERS, KEENE, DUNCAN (Joseph and Lydia-VA), SHIPPEY, MOTT, PIGG, BELL (Stone Church and Roger-Orange Co., Va), BEARD/BAIRD, CARTER (Giles and Theodorick line), WEBB, WADDILL, MICHAUX, CUNNINGHAM---VA --Plus WHITE, HAGERTY, FLATLEY--Green Bay MOMS SIDE: CORNWELL (NY), ANSCHICKS, BECKER, STEDMAN, MORSE, REITZ, BUTZ, KNAUSS, DIEHL, PATTERMAN, THULL, MEHAN, ROMIG, CARL, SIEGFRIED