Dear Listmembers, A short while ago, Lynne updated you on changes that are happening with rootsweb, which to recap briefly, from 2nd March, all mailing lists will become defunct, there will be no Email contact to or from rootsweb for any subscription accounts whatever, The archives will still be accessible and searchable, although it should be noted that one of my lists has nothing showing for that last 12 months even though active, and several surname lists have also been closed as inactive. I have offered to take over this list from Lynne which she has kindly accepted and have now set up a new site to which members can now subscribe if they so wish, all of the links are at the foot of this mailing, you can either join by sending the subscription Email, or by going to the site, registering an account and joining from there using either the web URL or group search, Just a few words about who I am, I've been a member of this list for some time now, and have on a few occasions been pleased to able to offer information on watch and clockmakers based upon my own genealogy experience and resources, some 30 odd years of clock and watch restoration has also involved me in quite a bit of research upon the industry itself which has been very useful, not to mention being led me down more than a few proverbial rabbit holes, hopefully I'll be able to step in occasionally with some help if no other members can assist, I'm sure you'll all join me in saying a big 'Thankyou' to Lynne for managing the group for us all, Looking forward to seeing you all over on the new home, Kind regards John Woolsey, (List Admin, UK-Watchmakers) https://groups.io/g/UK-Watchmakers Group Email Addresses * Post: <mailto:UK-Watchmakers@groups.io> UK-Watchmakers@groups.io * Subscribe: <mailto:UK-Watchmakers+subscribe@groups.io> UK-Watchmakers+subscribe@groups.io * Unsubscribe: <mailto:UK-Watchmakers+unsubscribe@groups.io> UK-Watchmakers+unsubscribe@groups.io * Group Owner: <mailto:UK-Watchmakers+owner@groups.io> UK-Watchmakers+owner@groups.io * Help: <mailto:UK-Watchmakers+help@groups.io> UK-Watchmakers+help@groups.io

Hi Kay, As an Octogenarian and past practiced steam and marine Coppersmith, my thoughts re your question would be that without the basic knowledge of a toolmaker; coming to grips with the finesse of watchmaking would be beyond that of a layman of any background. I had an ancestor watchmaker to the Queen in 1837-a James Gorham of 5 High Street, Kensington and a son Francis classified as a clock/watchmaker 1848 of 2 High Street, Kensington, obviously Francis learned his skills from his father James-but I have no idea (even after extensive research) where and with whom James received his training?. Sorry I cannot be of additional information. Cheers, John Gorham Perth, Western Australia ------ Original Message ------ From: "KAY cross via UK-WATCHMAKERS" <uk-watchmakers@rootsweb.com> To: uk-watchmakers@rootsweb.com Cc: "KAY cross" <colin.cross48@blueyonder.co.uk> Sent: 15/01/2020 4:01:26 AM Subject: [WATCH] William Cross 1710-1782 >Hi > >The above was a watchtool maker married to Tabitha Fenny st elpin Warrington 1739 to Tabitha Fenny i have found that he paid £50.00 for a licence to get married then. I wondered how he could pay that it was a lot of money then. His father Nicolas Cross was a carpenter Does anyone have any information What is the difference between a watchmaker and a toolmaker. > >Colin > >_______________________________________________ > >:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > >Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. >Other people can learn from them! > >Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. > > >:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: > > >_______________________________________________ >Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref >Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/uk-watchmakers@rootsweb.com >Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 >Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog >RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Hi The above was a watchtool maker married to Tabitha Fenny st elpin Warrington 1739 to Tabitha Fenny i have found that he paid £50.00 for a licence to get married then. I wondered how he could pay that it was a lot of money then. His father Nicolas Cross was a carpenter Does anyone have any information What is the difference between a watchmaker and a toolmaker. Colin

Hello everyone It's chaotic for list administrators at the moment, having just been told that Ancestry is no longer going to host RootsWeb lists. We're all trying to sort things out behind the scenes. To that end, I'm transferring the administration of this list over to John Woolsey, who is an experienced researcher and actively involved in clock and watch restoration for a couple of decades. Please welcome John to the list. It's been a pleasure being this list's administrator, although it's been very sad to see how drastically list activity has dropped off. I wish each and every one of you much success in your family research. Kind regards, Lynne

List administrators were recently sent the message below indicating that as of 2 March 2020, all RootsWeb mailing lists would close. Further discussion and queries can be placed on the message boards at <https://www.ancestry.com/boards/> The message boards are free to use and only require a one-time registration with a valid email address and a name. Goodbye and best of luck with your family history research. Lynne list admin. Goodbye and best of luck with your family history research. Lynne list admin. Message from RootsWeb: Beginning March 2nd, 2020 the Mailing Lists functionality on RootsWeb will be discontinued. Users will no longer be able to send outgoing emails or accept incoming emails. Additionally, administration tools will no longer be available to list administrators and mailing lists will be put into an archival state. > >Administrators may save the emails in their list prior to March 2nd. After that, mailing list archives will remain available and searchable on RootsWeb. > >As an alternative to RootsWeb Mailing Lists, Ancestry message boards are a great option to network with others in the genealogy community. Message boards are available for free with an Ancestry registered account. > >Thank you for being part of the RootsWeb family and contributing to this community. > >Sincerely, >The RootsWeb team

From the Powers That Be: "We will be moving our Mailing Lists to newer and what should be better performing machines on Thursday July 26, 2018. "You can expect somewhere between 4 and 8 hours of downtime. "No emails will be lost, but everything will be delayed...." Keep your fingers crossed that all goes well! Lynne

Hello everyone As you know by now, RootsWeb mailing lists are up and running. Many things need to be fixed, though. One of the items currently being addressed is why messages from subscribers are not always going directly to the list. In many instances, these posts are being held for administrative action. The Powers That Be suggest this might be happening when the poster, although subscribed to the list, may not be registered with RootsWeb. So, please register with RootsWeb. It takes only a few moments and might fix the posting issues. Instructions begin at http://home.rootsweb.ancestry.com/listindexes/setupmail Thanks! Lynne

>From the RootsWeb home page: Update: January 23, 2018 "Great news on the progress of getting RootsWeb back online. Today, we are bringing WorldConnect, one of our most valued features, back online. As we make WorldConnect available, it will initially be in a read only state. You can now search for people and view information as you did in the past; but for now, we cannot accept new uploads or modifications to existing GEDCOM files. We expect to add this additional functionality in the coming weeks. "Also, here are answers to a few questions we’ve heard from the community: "Why is this taking so long? RootsWeb has many terabytes of data uploaded by users across its various features. The site also has hundreds of thousands of lines of code. We have been scanning the data using a variety of tools, and that takes time. We’ve also been examining the code and the underlying systems. Some code is being refurbished, and some will need to be more fully rewritten to add the layers of security needed in this day and age. We know it may be frustrating, but we are committed to returning data to you in a safe manner. "Have you found any other security problems? We haven’t found any other problems, but we want to thoroughly update systems to ensure the safety of your information. "Is Ancestry going to start charging for RootsWeb? Ancestry is not going to start charging for RootsWeb. When functionality returns to the site, you will still be able to view content for free. "I’ve heard not everything is coming back online, is that true? We will be returning WorldConnect and Mailing Lists back to their full functionality. Other features are still being evaluated. In cases where we are unable to bring back previous functionality or content, we will explore ways for people who uploaded data to retrieve it if we don’t feel we can put it back online safely. "Care to share your thoughts with us?" Go to https://ancestry.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_bgfgaeHlLvv5LMx

Hello everyone In case you haven't been keeping up with the news, Ancestry has posted additional information about the RootsWeb outage at http://www.rootsweb.com/ I'm very happy to report that the administrative tools now seem to be working and administrators can again take action when messages don't make it to the list because they're too big or have other problems. This is the first in a very long time that Ancestry staff has been communicative about the issues affecting RootsWeb. Excellent progress. A very happy new year to you all! Let's go break down some brick walls. Lynne list admin.

Thank you and Happy Hanukkah to you too. Marcelle Western Australia -----Original Message----- From: UK-WATCHMAKERS [mailto:uk-watchmakers-bounces+mvs5=westnet.com.au@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lynne Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2017 11:37 PM To: Undisclosed recipients: Subject: [WATCH] Happy Hanukkah Wishing a very Happy Hanukkah to all who celebrate! May you be blessed with gifts of love, peace, and happiness this Hanukkah and always. Lynne list admin. :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to UK-WATCHMAKERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wishing a very Happy Hanukkah to all who celebrate! May you be blessed with gifts of love, peace, and happiness this Hanukkah and always. Lynne list admin.

The General Register Office (GRO) for England and Wales is piloting a service beginning 12 October 2017 to provide portable document format (PDF) copies of digitised historical birth and death records. The pilot will run for a minimum of 3 months to enable GRO to assess the demand for this service over a prolonged period. The PDF scheme provides a cheaper alternative to ordering print certificates, which cost £9.25 each or £23.40 for priority certificates. Applications for each PDF cost £6, must be made online, and include a GRO index reference. England and Wales records which are available as PDFs in this extended pilot include: Births: 1837 –1916 Deaths: 1837 –1957 https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

A useful reminder for all of us: "Before You Post that Query", a genealogy tip of the day at http://genealogytipoftheday.com/index.php/2017/07/20/before-you-post-that-query/ There are links there to some other useful postings, although most are regarding American family research. Lynne

Extremely late notice of what might be a rather informative talk, but just found out about it myself: The British Newspaper Archive webinar, a live presentation, entitled "Making the most of the British Newspaper Archive," will air today at 4pm BST. "In this webinar, Aoife O Connor [Data Development Manager, British Newspaper Archive] will show you how to get the most out of the website. Learn search tips and tricks, discover the special features of the site, and find out how historic newspapers can break down genealogical brick walls and bring the history of your hometown to life. " Sounds like a very useful presentation. If you're unable to attend the webinar at that time, there will be an opportunity to listen to the recording. See http://ow.ly/A0YS30bPufb for registration and more information. Lynne

I am related to James Cross watchmaker married Elizabeth Wainwright 1788 st Wilfrid Farnworth Does any one know if there is a connection with Richard Cross watchmaker married to Ellen Molineux st wilfrid 1801 Also William Cross watchtool maker from windle parish of Prescott married 1739 st elpin Warrington to Tabitha Fenny Robert Cross Farnworth Watchmaker married to Margaret Holme 1790 Does any one think they are all connected. regards Colin Cross

Hello Malcolm and Nicolette, Thank you for your prompt and informative responses-all of which I concur with, yes I have read the comprehensive book "Royal Clockmakers" my sister owns it. There remains the mystery of the relationship between James the father, Maria Brown the wife, and the "son", Francis. I know that Maria was previously married to an Abraham Brown who died soon after perhaps from either disease or accident-Maria adopted the ''Brown'' inclusion into her name for some reason, on her first marriage certificate she was known as Maria Searly or Sealy, on her marriage to James she was listed as Maria Brown Searly- perhaps using the "Brown" component in loving memory of her 1st husband- she was also of advanced years; not uncommon but unusual as she died in 1822 at 44yrs-just 10 months into her marriage with James Gorham- not an age to start a family. Then supposing Francis was her son to Abraham Brown she would have been approx. late thirties when Francis was born, c 1815 all very mysterious and not supported by any official documentation I can find. I have the James Gorham will which does not shed any light on this mystery, I can only hope that a reader will pick up on this and advance some additional exciting information- interesting isn't it?. Kind regards. John Gorham -----Original Message----- From: UK-WATCHMAKERS [mailto:uk-watchmakers-bounces+johnthesailor1=bigpond.com@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nicolette Reichhold Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 4:08 PM To: uk-watchmakers@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [WATCH] James Gorham clockmaker Kensington & son Francis Gorham. Hello John I own a book called 'Royal Clockmakers' by Cedric Jagger which mentions the Gorham clockmakers. If you have not seen this already I can send the information to you. I have 6 watch and clockmakers in my family over 3 generations. Two of them were Royal Clock and watch makers and I have had the same problem in finding out who they were apprenticed to, though I think it was very probably their father. I expect you have already seen the 'Database of Court Officers 1660-1837' (free online). It is indexed, so it is possible to find out the date they received their Royal appointments. Best wishes Nicky ________________________________ From: UK-WATCHMAKERS <uk-watchmakers-bounces+nheesom=hotmail.co.uk@rootsweb.com> on behalf of john <johnthesailor1@bigpond.com> Sent: 28 March 2017 03:49:23 To: uk-watchmakers@rootsweb.com Subject: [WATCH] James Gorham clockmaker Kensington & son Francis Gorham. Hello, I am a descendant of this London Clockmaker, migrating here to Western Australia with family in 1952, I have researched James and his son?- Francis, my query is : Where and with whom did James learn his skills as a Clockmaker as he went on to become a Clockmaker to the Queen and Royal Family?. James was born 1789 at Aldington near Ashford Kent to James and Mary Gorham, he then resurfaces again working as a Clockmaker in Kensington London, his home and works almost opposite Kensington Palace. Francis was raised as James son and joined in the business however I have not been able to locate any birth/baptism records for Francis, I do know that James married a Maria Brown Seale (Searly) in 1821, she died 10 months later in 1822 at 44yrs, Maria had been married prior to her and James marriage, to a Abraham Brown 02/07/1815, Abraham died 16/03/1817. I cannot find any documents confirming a child from this marriage?. Both James and Francis both died in 1856 and are buried in the same grave in the Kensal Green Cemetery. In the London 1951 census Francis is listed as being born in Westminster age 44yrs which indicates his birth year as 1815-16. I would appreciate any reader with additional information on these my two of my ancestors getting back in touch. Best regards, John Gorham, Perth Western Australia (WA) :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Really Useful Sources: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lancsopc/RUS/guide.htm Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to UK-WATCHMAKERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Really Useful Sources: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lancsopc/RUS/guide.htm Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to UK-WATCHMAKERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear John and Nicky, it is generally believed that apprenticeship to one's father only occurred in the less-technological trades. I collected this discussion from the London list some years ago - "Although it was traditional for sons to be brought up to the same calling as their fathers, it was thought preferable to be apprenticed outside the family, often with a friend, because fathers could be either too severe or too indulgent with their own sons. Generally, sons were apprenticed to their fathers only in the lower occupations – watermen and the like – but not in the more technical professions such as brewing, clock-making and the law. One correspondent pointed out that by the time a son was old enough to be apprenticed, the father could be desk-bound to the financial and personnel side of the business, and out of touch with the technical minutiae of the profession, particularly its recent advances. It was also cynically suggested that it was a legal form of industrial espionage." regards malcolm -----Original Message----- From: Nicolette Reichhold Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 7:08 PM To: uk-watchmakers@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [WATCH] James Gorham clockmaker Kensington & son Francis Gorham. Hello John I own a book called 'Royal Clockmakers' by Cedric Jagger which mentions the Gorham clockmakers. If you have not seen this already I can send the information to you. I have 6 watch and clockmakers in my family over 3 generations. Two of them were Royal Clock and watch makers and I have had the same problem in finding out who they were apprenticed to, though I think it was very probably their father. I expect you have already seen the 'Database of Court Officers 1660-1837' (free online). It is indexed, so it is possible to find out the date they received their Royal appointments. Best wishes Nicky ________________________________ From: UK-WATCHMAKERS <uk-watchmakers-bounces+nheesom=hotmail.co.uk@rootsweb.com> on behalf of john <johnthesailor1@bigpond.com> Sent: 28 March 2017 03:49:23 To: uk-watchmakers@rootsweb.com Subject: [WATCH] James Gorham clockmaker Kensington & son Francis Gorham. Hello, I am a descendant of this London Clockmaker, migrating here to Western Australia with family in 1952, I have researched James and his son?- Francis, my query is : Where and with whom did James learn his skills as a Clockmaker as he went on to become a Clockmaker to the Queen and Royal Family?. James was born 1789 at Aldington near Ashford Kent to James and Mary Gorham, he then resurfaces again working as a Clockmaker in Kensington London, his home and works almost opposite Kensington Palace. Francis was raised as James son and joined in the business however I have not been able to locate any birth/baptism records for Francis, I do know that James married a Maria Brown Seale (Searly) in 1821, she died 10 months later in 1822 at 44yrs, Maria had been married prior to her and James marriage, to a Abraham Brown 02/07/1815, Abraham died 16/03/1817. I cannot find any documents confirming a child from this marriage?. Both James and Francis both died in 1856 and are buried in the same grave in the Kensal Green Cemetery. In the London 1951 census Francis is listed as being born in Westminster age 44yrs which indicates his birth year as 1815-16. I would appreciate any reader with additional information on these my two of my ancestors getting back in touch. Best regards, John Gorham, Perth Western Australia (WA) :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Really Useful Sources: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lancsopc/RUS/guide.htm Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to UK-WATCHMAKERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Really Useful Sources: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lancsopc/RUS/guide.htm Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to UK-WATCHMAKERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, I am a descendant of this London Clockmaker, migrating here to Western Australia with family in 1952, I have researched James and his son?- Francis, my query is : Where and with whom did James learn his skills as a Clockmaker as he went on to become a Clockmaker to the Queen and Royal Family?. James was born 1789 at Aldington near Ashford Kent to James and Mary Gorham, he then resurfaces again working as a Clockmaker in Kensington London, his home and works almost opposite Kensington Palace. Francis was raised as James son and joined in the business however I have not been able to locate any birth/baptism records for Francis, I do know that James married a Maria Brown Seale (Searly) in 1821, she died 10 months later in 1822 at 44yrs, Maria had been married prior to her and James marriage, to a Abraham Brown 02/07/1815, Abraham died 16/03/1817. I cannot find any documents confirming a child from this marriage?. Both James and Francis both died in 1856 and are buried in the same grave in the Kensal Green Cemetery. In the London 1951 census Francis is listed as being born in Westminster age 44yrs which indicates his birth year as 1815-16. I would appreciate any reader with additional information on these my two of my ancestors getting back in touch. Best regards, John Gorham, Perth Western Australia (WA)

Hello John I own a book called 'Royal Clockmakers' by Cedric Jagger which mentions the Gorham clockmakers. If you have not seen this already I can send the information to you. I have 6 watch and clockmakers in my family over 3 generations. Two of them were Royal Clock and watch makers and I have had the same problem in finding out who they were apprenticed to, though I think it was very probably their father. I expect you have already seen the 'Database of Court Officers 1660-1837' (free online). It is indexed, so it is possible to find out the date they received their Royal appointments. Best wishes Nicky ________________________________ From: UK-WATCHMAKERS <uk-watchmakers-bounces+nheesom=hotmail.co.uk@rootsweb.com> on behalf of john <johnthesailor1@bigpond.com> Sent: 28 March 2017 03:49:23 To: uk-watchmakers@rootsweb.com Subject: [WATCH] James Gorham clockmaker Kensington & son Francis Gorham. Hello, I am a descendant of this London Clockmaker, migrating here to Western Australia with family in 1952, I have researched James and his son?- Francis, my query is : Where and with whom did James learn his skills as a Clockmaker as he went on to become a Clockmaker to the Queen and Royal Family?. James was born 1789 at Aldington near Ashford Kent to James and Mary Gorham, he then resurfaces again working as a Clockmaker in Kensington London, his home and works almost opposite Kensington Palace. Francis was raised as James son and joined in the business however I have not been able to locate any birth/baptism records for Francis, I do know that James married a Maria Brown Seale (Searly) in 1821, she died 10 months later in 1822 at 44yrs, Maria had been married prior to her and James marriage, to a Abraham Brown 02/07/1815, Abraham died 16/03/1817. I cannot find any documents confirming a child from this marriage?. Both James and Francis both died in 1856 and are buried in the same grave in the Kensal Green Cemetery. In the London 1951 census Francis is listed as being born in Westminster age 44yrs which indicates his birth year as 1815-16. I would appreciate any reader with additional information on these my two of my ancestors getting back in touch. Best regards, John Gorham, Perth Western Australia (WA) :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: Except for personal messages, please post replies to the list. Other people can learn from them! Be sure list mail is in PLAIN TEXT. Really Useful Sources: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lancsopc/RUS/guide.htm Buy or sell family research items on the GEN-MAT-UKI mailing list. No fees! :-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~:-~: ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to UK-WATCHMAKERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello everyone Orange Email will close 31st May 2017. If you're using any of the following email addresses, Orange.net Orangehome.co.uk Wanadoo.co.uk Freeserve.co.uk Fsbusiness.co.uk Fslife.co.uk Fsmail.net Fsworld.co.uk Fsnet.co.uk, then you need to change your email service before 31st May 2017 when those addresses will no longer valid. If you are subscribed to RootsWeb lists with any of those addresses and fail to resubscribe with a valid email address, you will be unsubscribed from the list(s) with no notice. Read more at http://tinyurl.com/jhr9x78 and http://tinyurl.com/hkbku6f (https://community.ee.co.uk/t5/Email/Who-s-affected-by-the-Orange-Email-closure/td-p/537498 and http://ee.co.uk/help/mobile-and-home-connections/broadband-gallery-mobile-broadband/email/email-closure). If you use one of these addresses, use Password Central (http://passwordcentral.rootsweb.ancestry.com/) to find out to which lists you're subscribed. Keep that list so you can resubscribe with your new email address. Best wishes, Lynne list admin.