Ernst, Thanks so much for all the historical insight about jurisdictions in the territories of present day Rheinland-Pfalz and Saarland. I'm happy Kathy Lenerz posed the questions and appreciate your expertise in the answers.I never seemed quite right to say my great-grandfather was born in Saarland when the entity did not even exist at the time of his birth. Indeed, had I been able to ask him if he were born in "Saarland" I'm sure it wouldn't have made sense to him. The same holds true for ancestors in Daun, Dreis-Brück, Waldkönigen, Kirchweiler, Neunkirchen, Steinborn, etc. Please do let us know what bibliography or other sources one might consult regarding this fascinating history. Like Kathy Lenerz, I also read and understand German fairly well. I do get stuck on unusual phrases and most archaic words and expressions on often finds in the ancient documents. Thank you most heartily Ernst! Best wishes, Joe Schmitt (Oakland, CA) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathy Lenerz" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > Ernst, > Sounds like I posed a real hair-splitting question that only a lawyer would > enjoy! I would really like to read more about the history of the Trier > region. I have several volumes on German history, but they do not go into > the level of detail I would like about this area. You are obviously very > knowledgeable about its history. Can you recommend any good books? With > effort, I can read German (but can write or speak only a little), so > language is not a barrier. > Thanks again for your wonderful detailed information. > Kathy Lenerz > > > Ernst Mettlach wrote: > > > > Kathy, > > a really interesting question and not easy to answer! Definetely, your > > gggrandfather was not born as a citizen of the Electorate of Trier. All > > clerical Territories (except Mainz), 45 of the 51 immediate imperial cities > > and most of the smaller principalties and counties in the german empire were > > secularized and disintegrated in the so called > > "Reichsdeputationshauptschluss" in 1803. So the Electorate of Trier ended > > it`s existence de facto after french occupation in 1794 and de jure after > > the treaty of Luneville and the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss in 1803. It > > was never re-established. The territories on the right side of the Rhine > > were given to Prussia (its Territory growed by 489%), Baden (738% growth), > > Wuerttemberg (414%+) and Bavaria (144%+). France had taken the terr. left of > > the Rhine in 1801. > > I don`t know exactly, when it was clear, that Prussia would stay in the > > Rhineland. They wanted it from the beginning on, but they had to negotiate a > > lot with England, Austria and France who feared a hegemonic Prussia. After > > the first Treaty of Paris in March 30, 1814, it was not so clear. The > > territories of the former french departement de la sarre (but only the parts > > on the right side of the river Mosel) were ruled by a mixed > > bavarian-austrian interim-administration with seat in Bad Kreuznach. In > > January 1815 it was clear, that Prussia could annect the Rhineland, after > > giving up its claims on the Kingdom of Saxonia in East/Middle Germany. In > > May 1815, the Prussians proclamated the unification of Trier and Prussia, > > this act was confirmed by the Vienna Congress (were Europe was reorganised) > > in June 1815. > > So your gggrandfather was born right in the gap between french and prussian > > rule. I can`t tell you what this area was by law, this is a difficult case > > for students of international law. But in a way this is hair-splitting, > > because powerful prussian troops were garrisoned in the forts of the region > > (Napoleon fled from Elba/Mediteranean Sea in March 1815 and threatened the > > region again with his army) and one month after his birth, it was clear that > > Prussia made the race. So it is more proper to say he was born in Prussia. > > Again, this is a very interesting topic. I will research it, if I have more > > time (if this will ever happen!) or ask someone who knows history of this > > time better than me. > > > > Ernst Mettlach > > Trier/Deutschland > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> > > To: Ernst Mettlach <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 4:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > > > Ernst, > > > Thanks for your detailed account of the historical situation of those > > times > > > and the maps. Previous maps and histories I had found just simply did not > > > give me the detail I was looking for. > > > > > > Your information leads to further questions: > > > So if my gggrandfather was born in December, 1814 in Britten, what > > > country/political jurisdiction would you say that occurred in? Limbo? If > > > the Peace Treaty of Paris removed that area from France in March, 1814, > > did > > > it also give that area to Prussia at that time? Or did Prussia not > > > formally own that territory until May, 1815 when the unification was > > > declared? If in the interim between March, 1814 and May, 1815 that area > > > was just militarily ruled by Prussia, would it be more proper to say he > > was > > > born in the Electorate of Trier or in Prussia? > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > Kathy Lenerz > > > >