Hi Alice, The difference between one of the German dialects and the litterary German "Hochdeutsch" is far bigger than between England, American, Australian and Canadian English. Having learned English in Canada I hear the difference between those ones of course and sometimes there are words or expressions I may have a little trouble with, but generally I have no problems in understanding any of them. However if go to village, say in Bavaria for example, and the older ones begin to speak in their dialect, I don't understand what they talk about even if German is my mothertongue... and if I tried to speak in my native "Saarland Platt" (that's Moselfränkisch in my case), they won't certainly not understand me (well a word here and there, but not much). I made the experience already several times with people from different areas. However since the "younger" ones (under 70 years old I would say) have quite all learned Hochdeutsch in school, we always understand each other in this way. As a tourist guide in Canada I had once a group from Bavaria with older people (80 and over) and one of the men didn't speak Hochdeutsch, only his dialect... his grandson had to translate when this man asked me something because I understood nothing at all when he talked... For the other accents you cite (East Coast, different races...) I don't really know, I never had to get along in English in those specific accents. Hope this well help Barbara > ----- Message d'origine ----- > De : "aellis" <[email protected]> > À : <[email protected]> > Envoyé : jeudi 12 septembre 2002 19:02 > Objet : Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Jenish/Jaenisch > > > > To Ernst, > > Thank you so much for the explanation, I will check out the web site you > > referred to. > > This is especially interesting, because this lady said she spoke German > > and Moselfränkisch. > > So, evidently she speaks two Germans. Is this a difference like > > England, American, > > Australian and Canadian English? Or, is this like the American: New > > Jersey accent, the Society > > East Coast English, the Southern United States, the Midwest or the > > dialects of different races > > in the United States like the Blacks, Asians, and Mexicans ? > > But I refer to all of these as English, not a different name or > > language. > > Thanks, Alice > > > > > > Ernst Mettlach wrote: > > > > > > Hallo, > > > > > > Moselfränkisch is not a mixture of french and german. It is the generic > term > > > for the german dialect spoken in the region between Luxemburg in the > west > > > and Westerwald (east of Coblence) in the east and Jünkerath (Eifel) in > the > > > north and the Hochwald in the south. Depending on where it is spoken, > there > > > are a lot of french words. The locals in the region call their dialect > > > "Platt" another word for dialect is "Mundart". > > > For a better understanding, I give you a short introduction (there are a > lot > > > more subdivions) in the categories of German. You`ll find a lot of > websites > > > about german dialects and Mosel Franconian, just type "deutsche > dialekte" or > > > "moselfränkisch" in Google. At > http://www.uni-marburg.de/dsa/dtdialekte.html > > > you can hear native speakers of the different dialects. > > > > > > German is divided in: > > > > > > High German or Hochdeutsch > > > The official language of Germany as it is written and teached in the > schools > > > and specifically uesd in the dictionary called the Duden. > > > > > > Low German or Plattdeutsch > > > All dialect that differs from the High German. > > > > > > The dialects are divided into: > > > 1. Upper German (Oberdeutsch) (nothing to do with "Hochdeutsch"): > > > To the Upper German dialects belong Swabian-Alemannic > > > (Schwäbisch-Alemannisch), Bavarian (Bairisch), East Franconian > > > (Ostfränkisch) and South (Rhine) Franconian (Süd(rhein)fränkische). > > > > > > 2. Middle German (Mitteldeutsch): > > > To the Middle German dialects belong Rhine Franconian (Rheinfränkisch, > > > spoken around Mainz), Mosel Franconian (Moselfränkisch, spoken in Lux., > > > Trier etc), Ripuarian (ripuarisch, spoken in the North Eifel and > especially > > > around Cologne), and Thuringian (Thüringisch), Saxon (Sächsisch), > > > Lausitzian (Lausitzisch), and Silesian (Schlesisch). Scientists divide > into > > > West and East Middle German. > > > > > > 3. Low German (Niederdeutsch): > > > Spoken in north Germany. It divides into three large dialect groups: Low > > > Franconian, Low Saxonian (also West Low German) with Westphalian and > > > Eastphalian, and East Low German with Mark-Brandenburg (with Middle > > > Pomeranian) and Mecklenburgish. > > > > > > Hope, this gives you an impression, how difficult the history of German > is. > > > > > > Ernst Mettlach > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: aellis <[email protected]> > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 2:11 AM > > > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Jenish/Jaenisch > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > This is an interesting discussion on dialect. > > > > Just recently I heard for the first time the word Moselfränkisch > > > > language. > > > > A lady in Borg told me me spoke German and Moselfränkisch. I > understand > > > > this is > > > > a mixture of French/German along the Moselle River. Is this another > > > > dialect? > > > > Alice > > > > > > > > > > > > Ernst Mettlach wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I just want to add, that some yenish (german: jenisch, french: > yenich,) > > > > > words found their way in the local dialects of some villages around > > > Trier > > > > > and the Trier dialect itself. A center of this secret language was > the > > > so > > > > > called "Fidei", the area north of Trier round Speicher, Orenhofen > etc. > > > > > In Switzerland, the yenish people have an own organization > (including a > > > > > museum in Vevey), that fights against discrimination. (As the > gypsies, > > > the > > > > > yenish were persecuted by the nazis and discriminated in the > Switzerland > > > by > > > > > the government). > > > > > Reading suggestion: > > > > > Peter Honnen: Geheimsprachen im Rheinland. Hrsg. vom > Landschaftsverband > > > > > Rheinland, > > > > > Amt für Landeskunde Bonn. ISBN 3-7927-1728-X (incl. CD with examples > of > > > > > original speakers) > > > > > Web: www.jenisch.ch > > > > > http://animalorama.angelcities.com/jenische.htm > > > > > > > > > > Ernst Mettlach > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Brix Morbach <[email protected]> > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:27 PM > > > > > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Jenish/Jaenisch > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Jenish/Jaenisch is a german based language, spreaded centuries ago > all > > > > > over > > > > > > german speaking Europe. It was the language of the vagrant folks > > > > > (fahrendes > > > > > > Volk). You can also say it was a secret language or thieves chant. > It > > > was > > > > > used > > > > > > by cobbles, basketmakers, knife grinders, kettleflics, little > crooks, > > > > > > thieves, artists, juggles and so on and so on. > > > > > > All who walk from town to town, farm to farm to sell/deal a bit, > show > > > > > their > > > > > > little tricks, made music, more or less homeless people. The > language > > > > > > Jaenisch was their protection against local authorities or to do > some > > > > > little tricky > > > > > > business. > > > > > > Jaenisch was german based (very poor grammar) with of course > german > > > words, > > > > > > (quite often used completly different from the real meaning). > However > > > > > Jaenisch > > > > > > also was full of slavic, gipsy and jiddish words completed by > italian > > > and > > > > > > french words too. So nobody understands Jaenisch if they do no > belong > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > circle. For our "modern ears" and if we are able to understand > > > Jaenisch > > > > > the > > > > > > language is very brutal and sexual. > > > > > > The vagrant folks were sometimes named by the so-called > "honorable" > > > people > > > > > > in the last centuries as "White Gypsies", maybe compare it today > with > > > the > > > > > name > > > > > > "White Trash" in USA. > > > > > > However most of these folks were simple very poor farmers, they > had > > > > > nothing > > > > > > in the cold wintertime on their fields todo so they made at that > time > > > > > > homework like baskets, knifes etc. On the roads from town to town > they > > > met > > > > > the other > > > > > > like the thieves, the crooks and others. They all had a common > > > interest to > > > > > > survive and to make some pennies and so they all used Jaenisch > > > language as > > > > > > protection. > > > > > > In France you may compare Jaenisch with "Argot" or in the UK with > > > > > "Cockney". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Brix > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. > > > > > > http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > > > > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > > > > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > > > > > to unsubscribe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > > > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > > > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > > > > to unsubscribe > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? 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