Hm, good question. If you view the thing scientific, Moselfränkisch is a form of German, a language within the language. But as the german dialects differ very much from each other and from the written language (especially older) people feel like Moselfränkisch is their mother tongue. Maybe the lady is proud of her dialect? Ask her! I don`t know if the difference between the dialects in Germany is the same as between East Coast English and Midwest dialect. I think, the difference is bigger. It is unusual, that dialect speakers in the the region call their dialect "Moselfränkisch" as this is an academic term. Usually they just call it "Trierer Platt" or "Borger Platt". For a history of German language look at: http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/lang/dt-hist.html Regards Ernst ----- Original Message ----- From: aellis <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Jenish/Jaenisch > To Ernst, > Thank you so much for the explanation, I will check out the web site you > referred to. > This is especially interesting, because this lady said she spoke German > and Moselfränkisch. > So, evidently she speaks two Germans. Is this a difference like > England, American, > Australian and Canadian English? Or, is this like the American: New > Jersey accent, the Society > East Coast English, the Southern United States, the Midwest or the > dialects of different races > in the United States like the Blacks, Asians, and Mexicans ? > But I refer to all of these as English, not a different name or > language. > Thanks, Alice > > > Ernst Mettlach wrote: > > > > Hallo, > > > > Moselfränkisch is not a mixture of french and german. It is the generic term > > for the german dialect spoken in the region between Luxemburg in the west > > and Westerwald (east of Coblence) in the east and Jünkerath (Eifel) in the > > north and the Hochwald in the south. Depending on where it is spoken, there > > are a lot of french words. The locals in the region call their dialect > > "Platt" another word for dialect is "Mundart". > > For a better understanding, I give you a short introduction (there are a lot > > more subdivions) in the categories of German. You`ll find a lot of websites > > about german dialects and Mosel Franconian, just type "deutsche dialekte" or > > "moselfränkisch" in Google. At http://www.uni-marburg.de/dsa/dtdialekte.html > > you can hear native speakers of the different dialects. > > > > German is divided in: > > > > High German or Hochdeutsch > > The official language of Germany as it is written and teached in the schools > > and specifically uesd in the dictionary called the Duden. > > > > Low German or Plattdeutsch > > All dialect that differs from the High German. > > > > The dialects are divided into: > > 1. Upper German (Oberdeutsch) (nothing to do with "Hochdeutsch"): > > To the Upper German dialects belong Swabian-Alemannic > > (Schwäbisch-Alemannisch), Bavarian (Bairisch), East Franconian > > (Ostfränkisch) and South (Rhine) Franconian (Süd(rhein)fränkische). > > > > 2. Middle German (Mitteldeutsch): > > To the Middle German dialects belong Rhine Franconian (Rheinfränkisch, > > spoken around Mainz), Mosel Franconian (Moselfränkisch, spoken in Lux., > > Trier etc), Ripuarian (ripuarisch, spoken in the North Eifel and especially > > around Cologne), and Thuringian (Thüringisch), Saxon (Sächsisch), > > Lausitzian (Lausitzisch), and Silesian (Schlesisch). Scientists divide into > > West and East Middle German. > > > > 3. Low German (Niederdeutsch): > > Spoken in north Germany. It divides into three large dialect groups: Low > > Franconian, Low Saxonian (also West Low German) with Westphalian and > > Eastphalian, and East Low German with Mark-Brandenburg (with Middle > > Pomeranian) and Mecklenburgish. > > > > Hope, this gives you an impression, how difficult the history of German is. > > > > Ernst Mettlach > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: aellis <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 2:11 AM > > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Jenish/Jaenisch > > > > > Hello, > > > This is an interesting discussion on dialect. > > > Just recently I heard for the first time the word Moselfränkisch > > > language. > > > A lady in Borg told me me spoke German and Moselfränkisch. I understand > > > this is > > > a mixture of French/German along the Moselle River. Is this another > > > dialect? > > > Alice > > > > > > > > > Ernst Mettlach wrote: > > > > > > > > I just want to add, that some yenish (german: jenisch, french: yenich,) > > > > words found their way in the local dialects of some villages around > > Trier > > > > and the Trier dialect itself. A center of this secret language was the > > so > > > > called "Fidei", the area north of Trier round Speicher, Orenhofen etc. > > > > In Switzerland, the yenish people have an own organization (including a > > > > museum in Vevey), that fights against discrimination. (As the gypsies, > > the > > > > yenish were persecuted by the nazis and discriminated in the Switzerland > > by > > > > the government). > > > > Reading suggestion: > > > > Peter Honnen: Geheimsprachen im Rheinland. Hrsg. vom Landschaftsverband > > > > Rheinland, > > > > Amt für Landeskunde Bonn. ISBN 3-7927-1728-X (incl. CD with examples of > > > > original speakers) > > > > Web: www.jenisch.ch > > > > http://animalorama.angelcities.com/jenische.htm > > > > > > > > Ernst Mettlach > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Brix Morbach <[email protected]> > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:27 PM > > > > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Jenish/Jaenisch > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > Jenish/Jaenisch is a german based language, spreaded centuries ago all > > > > over > > > > > german speaking Europe. It was the language of the vagrant folks > > > > (fahrendes > > > > > Volk). You can also say it was a secret language or thieves chant. It > > was > > > > used > > > > > by cobbles, basketmakers, knife grinders, kettleflics, little crooks, > > > > > thieves, artists, juggles and so on and so on. > > > > > All who walk from town to town, farm to farm to sell/deal a bit, show > > > > their > > > > > little tricks, made music, more or less homeless people. The language > > > > > Jaenisch was their protection against local authorities or to do some > > > > little tricky > > > > > business. > > > > > Jaenisch was german based (very poor grammar) with of course german > > words, > > > > > (quite often used completly different from the real meaning). However > > > > Jaenisch > > > > > also was full of slavic, gipsy and jiddish words completed by italian > > and > > > > > french words too. So nobody understands Jaenisch if they do no belong > > to > > > > the > > > > > circle. For our "modern ears" and if we are able to understand > > Jaenisch > > > > the > > > > > language is very brutal and sexual. > > > > > The vagrant folks were sometimes named by the so-called "honorable" > > people > > > > > in the last centuries as "White Gypsies", maybe compare it today with > > the > > > > name > > > > > "White Trash" in USA. > > > > > However most of these folks were simple very poor farmers, they had > > > > nothing > > > > > in the cold wintertime on their fields todo so they made at that time > > > > > homework like baskets, knifes etc. On the roads from town to town they > > met > > > > the other > > > > > like the thieves, the crooks and others. They all had a common > > interest to > > > > > survive and to make some pennies and so they all used Jaenisch > > language as > > > > > protection. > > > > > In France you may compare Jaenisch with "Argot" or in the UK with > > > > "Cockney". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > > > > > > > Brix > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. > > > > > http://www.gmx.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > > > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > > > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > > > > to unsubscribe > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > > > to unsubscribe > > > > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? 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