I don't think anyone is saying Joannes is being abbreviated "Joe". The abbreviation under discussion is "Joes". That's Joes as in a single name and not the plural for Joe. It may be my fault because in an earlier message I didn't distinguish that I was talking about "Joes" as a singular name, so again I apologize. -----Original Message----- From: Patrisia Rawlins-Manusos [mailto:rawlins68@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 25, 1999 3:16 AM To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] What's in a Name? Let's not confuse Joe, Joseph(us), Joannes/Johannes. All the records I've come across indicate some men named Johannes changed their name to John when coming to the US. It is a logical conclusion. However, I can't understand how Joannes could be abbreviated "Joe" when Joe usually is the short name for Joseph(us). Does anyone have a confirmed source for this information? >From trier-roots-l-request@rootsweb.com Sat Jan 23 18:27:44 1999 >Received: (from slist@localhost) > by bl-14.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA14675; > Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:16:18 -0800 (PST) >Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:16:18 -0800 (PST) >Message-ID: <36AA8415.2BF3@eosinc.com> >Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:23:17 -0600 >From: Jim & Sondra Brown <cats@eosinc.com> >Reply-To: cats@eosinc.com >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Old-To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] What's in a Name? >References: <001601be4726$bab36180$0100a8c0@mmeister.wt.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Resent-Message-ID: <"v7wPgD.A.DjD.sJoq2"@bl-14.rootsweb.com> >To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Resent-From: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >X-Mailing-List: <TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/1610 >X-Loop: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: TRIER-ROOTS-L-request@rootsweb.com > >If Joe is Johannes then what is John? >Is Adam a frequently used German name? >Sondra > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > Patrisia Rawlins Manusos <rawlins68@hotmail.com> Researching BOVE, BROCKMANN, DUMBLETON, GIEFER, JAEGER, MUELLER, RAWLINS, SCHAU, SCHNOOR, TERRY and many more . . . ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

The Joe-Johannes-Joseph discssion is getting a little far afield. s getting a little out in left field and confused. Jo e with an arched connecting line between the o and the e (ans sometimes without the space between the o and the e and the connecting line running from the J amd the o) is the abbreviation for Johannes (and variant spellings. It is NOT an abbreviation for Joseph. How do I know? Because I have seen it several hundreds of times in allemanic records from Alsace, Germany, and Luxembourg. If you find the father of a child is Jo e, with the arch, for the first, fourth, and sixth of his children and Johannes for the remaining five children, you can be confident that he did not change his name back and forth between Joseph and Johann during the course of his marriage. That fact can also be found in almost any decent German research aid. Virtually all such aids state that German parish records written in Latin display a number of abbreviations and symbols. Jo e is always among them. There are many more, so if you are not familiar with them, you are probably making a lot of transcription errors in your family research.and missing many genealogical facts about your ancestors. Vincent Falter

This is my first posting to this list - I have been reading the posts for months - hoping to find clues. I must tell you I have. The Name Game postings have been very informative. I have quite a list and it is interesting to add what has come to the list on these posts. Real people giving real information. Thank you. Marge

My sincere thanks to everyone who has responded to my Helena/Magdalena problem. It's been enlightening and fun. My mother-in-law's name was Mary Magdalena and she was always known as Lena. To my knowledge, no one ever called her Helena so I was puzzled. Dawn

I'm betting that Fanny is a nickname for Frances; at least that was the case for my grandmother. --Suzanne On Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:37:04 -0600 Jim & Sondra Brown <cats@eosinc.com> wrote: > Let me push your patience just a little more.... How about Fanny? > Any ideas on what it would be short for? Or is Fanny the whole thing. > I think she is German. Having trouble proving a connection to family > from Pa. Sondra > > ______________________________ ---------------------- Suzanne Bunkers Professor of English & Director of Honors Program Minnesota State University Mankato MN 56002-8400 E-mail: suzanne.bunkers@Mankato.MSUS.EDU Home page: http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~susanna/Default.htm

Dear Walt, I'm very interested in the in formation you have about Frederick Horstmann and his emigration to Ohio. What other information do you have? Thank you Lisa Birnesser

My g grandmother was name Josephine Angelina and went by Lena. So there is another one. George

I can't resist jumping on this wagon too! How about the name 'Eprecious' ? Anyone ever heard of it? Believe the nickname for it is 'Eve'. Barbara

Judging by my aformentioned baby name book, Fanny *may* be short for Frances. (In German that may be Fransciska. -----Original Message----- From: Jim & Sondra Brown [mailto:cats@eosinc.com] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 8:37 PM To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] What's in a name Let me push your patience just a little more.... How about Fanny? Any ideas on what it would be short for? Or is Fanny the whole thing. I think she is German. Having trouble proving a connection to family from Pa. Sondra ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

I don't know if this will help, but the German word Send has an archaic meaning that is not usually found in smaller English-German dictionaries. My German grammar reference defines "der Send" as "[Kirchen]versammlung; geistl. Gericht". I in turn translate that as [church]assembly, spiritual tribunal. -----Original Message----- From: BilPep@aol.com [mailto:BilPep@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 10:39 AM To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Sendshiffen In the Catholic church book for Lütz in the Hünsruck there is a section called the Sendshiffen after all the baptisms, marriages and deaths. None of the dictionaries I've consulted have a translation of this word. The records in this section are in German rather than the Latin in the rest of the book. Before I struggle through trying to translate these documents I'd like to know what they are about. Bill Peppey (Poppe) Researching Wendling, Weins, Kremer, Heser in the Lütz parish. Lucas in the Simmerin area. ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

Hello, I am new to this list. I am researching the ancestry of my g-grandfather Frederick Wilhelm Horstmann (b. 1854-d.1936). He was born in Germany and emigrated to th US about 1872. Frederick settled in Beaver Co, PA, north of Pittsburgh. He had a brother and sister, Henry and Deanie Horstmann, respectively. I originally had the information that Frederick was from Alsace-Lorraine. A look-up in the Alsace Immigration Book indicated he had not emigrated from there. I found a Frederick Wilhelm Horstmann on the Wall of Honor at Ellis Island stating he was from Sudhemmern, Minden, Germany. There was also a Henry Horstmann as well. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to research next to find Frederick's town of origin? Thank you in advance Lisa Birnesser

Let me push your patience just a little more.... How about Fanny? Any ideas on what it would be short for? Or is Fanny the whole thing. I think she is German. Having trouble proving a connection to family from Pa. Sondra

I didn't mean to set myself up as the resident expert on names. I don't qualify, not by a long shot. (g) But one source I've found useful for dealing with questions like this is a book of names, such as expectant parents buy to pick out a name for their child. I have several, the best of which is called, rather immodestly I think, "The Best Baby Name Book in the whole wide world" by Bruce Lanksy. The nice thing about this book is it gives many variations of common names as they appear in different cultures. Under the name Helen, it gives the meaning (Greek for "light" in case you were wondering), then it lists literally dozens of variations on the name. It doesn't have an entry for Magdalena but under Madeline it lists Magdalena and dozens of other variations of Madeline. It also refers the reader to the entries under Maida. The only overlap between those two names that the book suggests is what you've already pointed out: Both names are abbreviated Lena. So it doesn't appear that the two names were intechangeable. Though I could be mistaken, I suspect something else accounts for the different names being attached to the same women in your research. Some possibilities: The person may have been named Magdalena, and went by Lena. Some local bureaucrat, census taker, or other genealogist (depending on what source you are referring to), may have incorrectly assumed that Lena was short for Helena. Or the other way around. This has happened to me involving a woman named, coincidentally enough, Helen M. Lesmeister. ( Even more coincidentally, the M. may stand for Magdalena.) Helen's actual name is, I believe, Helianna. Some census taker apparently thought her name was Anna though. This is more likely to occur I think when the official or later genealogist is not familar with the name, or perhaps misunderstood the accents of the person providing information. I have another census record wherein my paternal grandfather, name Pius, was misidentified as Peter. I guess the census taker thought they said "Petrus" and translated the name for them. Another possibility is that custom we've discussed here recently of giving a spiritual first name (which is often common to every child of that sex in the family) and a second name which is the one the person actually used in daily life. Thus, perhaps the person was named Magdalena Helena, and the first name is what you've uncovered in church records, and the second secular name is what's in the civil records. Of course there are many possible explanations, that's just two I'm familiar with. Mark J. L. Lesmeister -----Original Message----- From: Dawn Linden [mailto:dlinden@ipa.net] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 1999 1:41 PM To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] What's in a name Dear Mark who was baptised Marcus Johannes Lesmeister, Twice this week I have found women called both Helena and Magdalena. Are these names interchangeable? They don't appear to be alike except for the "lena." Dawn

In response to the question about the name Fanny...... Among the PA Germans, in my experience, Fanny is interchangeable with Franey, Frany, Froni, Fronica, Veronica, Froncica, Vreni, and innumerable other variations of the German form of the name Frances. This seems to have been an extremely popular name particularly among the Amish and Mennonite immigrants to PA in the 1700s. Hope this helps..... Dot Clark GenieDot@aol.com Montgomery Co., PA

In our family, for the past several generations, "Fanny" was the nickname for Frances and Francine. Interestingly, some of the Veronica's in our family were called "Fronie". Patrisia > >Let me push your patience just a little more.... How about Fanny? >Any ideas on what it would be short for? Or is Fanny the whole thing. >I think she is German. Having trouble proving a connection to family >from Pa. Sondra > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

I have several relatives who used the name "Lena" and none of them were named Caroline/a. Patrisia >From TRIER-ROOTS-L-request@rootsweb.com Sun Jan 24 15:28:08 1999 >Received: from [204.212.38.30] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id MHotMailB874F7871AC85D1017091CCD4261E04070; Sun Jan 24 15:28:08 1999 >Received: (from slist@localhost) > by bl-14.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25220; > Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:16:08 -0800 (PST) >Resent-Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:16:08 -0800 (PST) >Message-ID: <36ABAC5C.FA3B2866@wasatch.com> >Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:27:24 -0700 >From: "W. David Samuelsen" <dsam@wasatch.com> >Reply-To: dsam@wasatch.com >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Old-To: Dawn Linden <dlinden@ipa.net> >Old-CC: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] What's in a name >References: <3.0.1.32.19990124134123.00c9efa0@popc.ipa.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Resent-Message-ID: <"SWk72D.A.yJG.2m6q2"@bl-14.rootsweb.com> >To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Resent-From: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >X-Mailing-List: <TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/1626 >X-Loop: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: TRIER-ROOTS-L-request@rootsweb.com > >You bet! They are interchangable. I have same Helena/Magdalena problem >in one of my grandmas' lines. > >Lena is usually Caroline or Carolina like my other grandma > >W. David Samuelsen > >Dawn Linden wrote: >> >> Dear Mark who was baptised Marcus Johannes Lesmeister, >> >> Twice this week I have found women called both Helena and Magdalena. Are >> these names interchangeable? They don't appear to be alike except for the >> "lena." >> >> Dawn >> >> ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >> Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >> Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >> Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

My gggrmo also went by Helena and Helen, as well as Lena. There are many grand and great-grandchildren named after her, using Helen. This has made our research quite complicated! (Her given name was Magdalena Eleanor) Patrisia > > >You bet! They are interchangable. I have same Helena/Magdalena problem >in one of my grandmas' lines. > >Lena is usually Caroline or Carolina like my other grandma > >W. David Samuelsen > >Dawn Linden wrote: >> >> Dear Mark who was baptised Marcus Johannes Lesmeister, >> >> Twice this week I have found women called both Helena and Magdalena. Are >> these names interchangeable? They don't appear to be alike except for the >> "lena." >> >> Dawn >> >> ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >> Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >> Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >> Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Let's not confuse Joe, Joseph(us), Joannes/Johannes. All the records I've come across indicate some men named Johannes changed their name to John when coming to the US. It is a logical conclusion. However, I can't understand how Joannes could be abbreviated "Joe" when Joe usually is the short name for Joseph(us). Does anyone have a confirmed source for this information? >From trier-roots-l-request@rootsweb.com Sat Jan 23 18:27:44 1999 >Received: (from slist@localhost) > by bl-14.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA14675; > Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:16:18 -0800 (PST) >Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:16:18 -0800 (PST) >Message-ID: <36AA8415.2BF3@eosinc.com> >Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:23:17 -0600 >From: Jim & Sondra Brown <cats@eosinc.com> >Reply-To: cats@eosinc.com >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Old-To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] What's in a Name? >References: <001601be4726$bab36180$0100a8c0@mmeister.wt.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Resent-Message-ID: <"v7wPgD.A.DjD.sJoq2"@bl-14.rootsweb.com> >To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Resent-From: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >X-Mailing-List: <TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/1610 >X-Loop: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: TRIER-ROOTS-L-request@rootsweb.com > >If Joe is Johannes then what is John? >Is Adam a frequently used German name? >Sondra > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > Patrisia Rawlins Manusos <rawlins68@hotmail.com> Researching BOVE, BROCKMANN, DUMBLETON, GIEFER, JAEGER, MUELLER, RAWLINS, SCHAU, SCHNOOR, TERRY and many more . . . ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Ioannis is the Greek spelling, Johannes is the Latin spelling. Patrisia >From TRIER-ROOTS-L-request@rootsweb.com Sat Jan 23 15:21:57 1999 >Received: from [204.212.38.30] by hotmail.com (1.1) with SMTP id MHotMailB873A4941D105D101707BCCD4261E060C0; Sat Jan 23 15:21:57 1999 >Received: (from slist@localhost) > by bl-14.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA13531; > Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:10:09 -0800 (PST) >Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:10:09 -0800 (PST) >Reply-To: <mmeister@wt.net> >From: "Mark Lesmeister" <mmeister@wt.net> >Old-To: <TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com> >Subject: RE: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] What's in a Name? >Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:18:46 -0600 >Message-ID: <001601be4726$bab36180$0100a8c0@mmeister.wt.net> >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 >Importance: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 >In-Reply-To: <130d27c1.36aa291a@aol.com> >Resent-Message-ID: <"pfbRVD.A.5SD.Pblq2"@bl-14.rootsweb.com> >To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Resent-From: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >X-Mailing-List: <TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/1608 >X-Loop: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Precedence: list >Resent-Sender: TRIER-ROOTS-L-request@rootsweb.com > >FWIW, I too have often run across the name Jois, or Joes, used I believe as >an abreviation for Johannes in 18 and 19th century baptismal records. BTW, >when they do spell it out, the Latin version of the name was sometimes >written joannis or even ioannis. > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: MegNel1659@aol.com [mailto:MegNel1659@aol.com] >Sent: Saturday, January 23, 1999 1:55 PM >To: TRIER-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] What's in a Name? > > >I have always thought that the American version of Johann was John. Now I >have run across the name Jois, or Joes, of a person who may have become John >in the US. Are these names interchangeable? Also Johannes. > >Meg Nelson >California USA > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Greatest Christmas Gift Ever! >Support RootsWeb! Help provide FREE genealogical resources on the >Internet: http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Looking for anyone researching the name Heimbach/Heimbeaugh/Heimbaugh. Peter Heimbach was born 1714 Germany, Rheinland, near Coblentz. Any information would be very much appreciated. Judy jgood@mmind.net