Hello Ron, * vor means Born before. I think it is Heinrich TERRES also called SCHMIT (housename), but I son't know how to interpret MEYERS. Can You say me the title of that book? Best regards Rolf Freytag mailto:[email protected] http://www.rolf-freytag.de

It is open to the public. Adress is: Johannisstrasse 28 D-54290 Trier Phone 0651 97068-0 Fax (0651) 97068-140 Opening hours: Mo-Thu: 10-13 and 14-17 , Fr: 10 - 13 and 14 - 15.30 The catalogue of the library is online available, adress is: http://www.fes.de/library/kmhkat.html Ernst Trier/Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl C. DeMuth <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 5:52 PM Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] {TRIER ROOTS} Karl Marx Library > I understand a Marx Library is located in TRier. Is it open to the > public. > Carl > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe >

Hello everyone! Your mailing list is wonderful! I am researching the surnames Franz and Raab, associated with Trier, Germany. I have Anna Maria Raab married to Wm. Franz, approximately mid-1800's. A daughter was Elise Dorothea Franz. I am also researching Anna Blasius, daughter of Emmerick and Apolonia Weiler Blasius. Anna married Carl Kufs in Trier, Juhe 17, 1825. If anyone has the same interest, please email [email protected] Thank you! Ann _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Hi folks, In the passage below, does the abbreviation, * vor, mean: born about or before 1760? And, how would one identify Heinrich? Heinrich Meyers-Schmitt Terres? Right? Or-------- MEYERS, SCHMITT, TERRES Heinrich, Ackerer, Biersdorf, Manderscheid * vor 1760 Biersdorf, rk +/bgr 28/29.03.1801 Manderscheid/Waxweiler, Wwer aus Biersdorf / auch Schmit genannt vh 25.07.1779 Waxweiler Thanks, Ron

I understand a Marx Library is located in TRier. Is it open to the public. Carl

As I understood Kathy, she was speaking about the time between 1817 (birth of Martin Menz) and 1845 (*Linus Menz). In this time, borders were defined by the Paris Peace agreement in 1814 and the Wien Congress 1815. The borderlines to Luxemburg were mainly the same as today, defined by Mosel and Sauer river. Before the end of the 18 th century, Luxemburg had large territories in the Westeifel region, along the rivers Kyll, Our, Sauer and Pruem. But as far as I know, the Herzogtum Luxemburg had never possessions alongside the Ruwer river and only small possesions along the Saar river (around Kanzem/Wiltingen). Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm To this time, you could do a short walk, crossing a dozen borders. Our region (and the whole german empire with about 600 territories) was a patchwork. Ernst ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Herres To: Ernst Mettlach ; [email protected] Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 3:18 AM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] dialects Walking to Luxembourg depends upon how big Luxembourg was at the time you were doing the walking. It is possible they lived on the River Ruwer east of Trier because Luxembourg was much larger in the past, the Saar River south of Trier also is in the "Trier region". ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernst Mettlach To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] dialects Kathy, If your family lived near a river in the Trier region and walked to Luxemburg, there are only three possible rivers: the upper Mosel (between Oberbillig and Perl), the Sauer river or the Our river. Maybe it`s possible to identify the exact region by the phrases you`ve learnt. Post it and I`ll try to determine. Ernst Trier/Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn _kathy _rogers <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:08 PM Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] dialects > Thanks to Ernst and Anne > The information was very helpful. > I haven't been able to pinpoint the town of origin for my MENZ ancestors. > But another helpful person on this list or Pfalz was able to help me from a > couple phrases I had been taught. He had said it was a dialect that was > spoken along the Mosell R. but didn't give it a name. > My ggrandfather had told his children and grandchildren stories of living > very near a river (they couldn't recall which river) and of walking to > Luxembourg. I know family stories are often unreliable but this one seems > to be checking out. > The phone books of the area have too many Menzs to try that route unless I > can't get more information another way. > I have been unable to find naturalization or ships records for them. > Catholic church death and marriage records don't place of birth. > > They would have immigrated 1846-48, there was a son born in Ger. in 1845 and > he remarried in Ohio 11 Jan 1848, after his 1st wife died on board ship ( > her death is also family lore). > > Born in Ger. were: > Martin MENZ b. 9 Jan 1817 > Taddeus MENZ b. 10 Apr 1842 > Linus MENZ b. 23 Feb 1845 > > They were Catholic. > Any help or suggestion about what else to try will be appreciated. > And if someone else would like to try to determine which dialect exactly it > was let me know. I have to try to type it phoneticly but it seems to work > before. > Sorry this got so long. > Thanks > Kathy R. > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html to unsubscribe

Kathy, If your family lived near a river in the Trier region and walked to Luxemburg, there are only three possible rivers: the upper Mosel (between Oberbillig and Perl), the Sauer river or the Our river. Maybe it`s possible to identify the exact region by the phrases you`ve learnt. Post it and I`ll try to determine. Ernst Trier/Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn _kathy _rogers <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:08 PM Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] dialects > Thanks to Ernst and Anne > The information was very helpful. > I haven't been able to pinpoint the town of origin for my MENZ ancestors. > But another helpful person on this list or Pfalz was able to help me from a > couple phrases I had been taught. He had said it was a dialect that was > spoken along the Mosell R. but didn't give it a name. > My ggrandfather had told his children and grandchildren stories of living > very near a river (they couldn't recall which river) and of walking to > Luxembourg. I know family stories are often unreliable but this one seems > to be checking out. > The phone books of the area have too many Menzs to try that route unless I > can't get more information another way. > I have been unable to find naturalization or ships records for them. > Catholic church death and marriage records don't place of birth. > > They would have immigrated 1846-48, there was a son born in Ger. in 1845 and > he remarried in Ohio 11 Jan 1848, after his 1st wife died on board ship ( > her death is also family lore). > > Born in Ger. were: > Martin MENZ b. 9 Jan 1817 > Taddeus MENZ b. 10 Apr 1842 > Linus MENZ b. 23 Feb 1845 > > They were Catholic. > Any help or suggestion about what else to try will be appreciated. > And if someone else would like to try to determine which dialect exactly it > was let me know. I have to try to type it phoneticly but it seems to work > before. > Sorry this got so long. > Thanks > Kathy R. > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe >

Walking to Luxembourg depends upon how big Luxembourg was at the time you were doing the walking. It is possible they lived on the River Ruwer east of Trier because Luxembourg was much larger in the past, the Saar River south of Trier also is in the "Trier region". ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernst Mettlach To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] dialects Kathy, If your family lived near a river in the Trier region and walked to Luxemburg, there are only three possible rivers: the upper Mosel (between Oberbillig and Perl), the Sauer river or the Our river. Maybe it`s possible to identify the exact region by the phrases you`ve learnt. Post it and I`ll try to determine. Ernst Trier/Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: glenn _kathy _rogers <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 9:08 PM Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] dialects > Thanks to Ernst and Anne > The information was very helpful. > I haven't been able to pinpoint the town of origin for my MENZ ancestors. > But another helpful person on this list or Pfalz was able to help me from a > couple phrases I had been taught. He had said it was a dialect that was > spoken along the Mosell R. but didn't give it a name. > My ggrandfather had told his children and grandchildren stories of living > very near a river (they couldn't recall which river) and of walking to > Luxembourg. I know family stories are often unreliable but this one seems > to be checking out. > The phone books of the area have too many Menzs to try that route unless I > can't get more information another way. > I have been unable to find naturalization or ships records for them. > Catholic church death and marriage records don't place of birth. > > They would have immigrated 1846-48, there was a son born in Ger. in 1845 and > he remarried in Ohio 11 Jan 1848, after his 1st wife died on board ship ( > her death is also family lore). > > Born in Ger. were: > Martin MENZ b. 9 Jan 1817 > Taddeus MENZ b. 10 Apr 1842 > Linus MENZ b. 23 Feb 1845 > > They were Catholic. > Any help or suggestion about what else to try will be appreciated. > And if someone else would like to try to determine which dialect exactly it > was let me know. I have to try to type it phoneticly but it seems to work > before. > Sorry this got so long. > Thanks > Kathy R. > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html to unsubscribe

Does anyone know of a town in Germany called Brisen or Breusen. I have found Brisen on an 1870 U. S. census records and breusen on a birth certificate

Thanks to Ernst and Anne The information was very helpful. I haven't been able to pinpoint the town of origin for my MENZ ancestors. But another helpful person on this list or Pfalz was able to help me from a couple phrases I had been taught. He had said it was a dialect that was spoken along the Mosell R. but didn't give it a name. My ggrandfather had told his children and grandchildren stories of living very near a river (they couldn't recall which river) and of walking to Luxembourg. I know family stories are often unreliable but this one seems to be checking out. The phone books of the area have too many Menzs to try that route unless I can't get more information another way. I have been unable to find naturalization or ships records for them. Catholic church death and marriage records don't place of birth. They would have immigrated 1846-48, there was a son born in Ger. in 1845 and he remarried in Ohio 11 Jan 1848, after his 1st wife died on board ship ( her death is also family lore). Born in Ger. were: Martin MENZ b. 9 Jan 1817 Taddeus MENZ b. 10 Apr 1842 Linus MENZ b. 23 Feb 1845 They were Catholic. Any help or suggestion about what else to try will be appreciated. And if someone else would like to try to determine which dialect exactly it was let me know. I have to try to type it phoneticly but it seems to work before. Sorry this got so long. Thanks Kathy R.

Hi Folks, Thanks to all who were kind enough to help me find the abbreviations that I was searching for!!!! Best regards, Ron, in Folsom, Louisiana

Hello Ron, S.v.: Sohn von (son of) P.: Paten (godparents) <101> maybe ?? see also entry 101 ~ Taufe christening mailto:[email protected] http://www.rolf-freytag.de

Hi, oo (means two wedding rings) = Marriage * = birth + vor = died before etc = et cetera (and so on) Never seen the others Ernst Trier/Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Holmquist <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 5:00 AM Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] abbreviations > Hi folks, > > Would someone please enlighten me as to these and other abbreviations shown/not shown in this example? > > oo > S.v.: > <101> > * > + vor > P.: > etc. > > 5 BERTELS Johann oo 16.11.1751 N. Magdalena <101> > Ackerer in Waxweiler Ackerin > Hausname (HN): Terres > S.v.: Wilhelm Bertels > * in Weidingen * in > ? > + vor 04.1793 in Manderscheid + vor 01.1781 in Manderscheid > 1. Katharina * Manderscheid ~ 08.09.1752 Waxweiler > P.: Nikolaus Ketten,Waxweiler ; Katharina Bertel,Oberweidingen > oo 30.04.1793 Roth an der Our ALBER Johann / aus Altwies/Lux. > (Wittwer, S.v.: Karl Alber und Margaretha Vendel aus Altwies) > > 6 BREUERS Nikolaus oo KULEN, Barbara > > Thanks, > Ron in Folsom > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe >

----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Lipprandt <[email protected]> To: <TRIER [email protected]> Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] abbreviations > For those of you that still have questions of other > symbols and terminology, the following site should > help you efforts. > > http://www.genealogienetz.de/genealogy.html > > This brings up the main page, scroll down to > the area of "terminology and symbols", click on > symbols. > > There are other categories on this main page that > may also be of interest to some of you. > > Regards, > Robert Lipprandt > (South Florida) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: Robert LIPP <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 7:05 PM > Subject: Fw: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] abbreviations > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ron Holmquist <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 8:00 PM > > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] abbreviations > > > > > > > Hi folks, > > > > > > Would someone please enlighten me as to these and other abbreviations > > shown/not shown in this example? > > > > > > oo > > > S.v.: > > > <101> > > > * > > > + vor > > > P.: > > > etc. > > > > > > 5 BERTELS Johann oo 16.11.1751 N. > > Magdalena <101> > > > Ackerer in Waxweiler > > Ackerin > > > Hausname (HN): Terres > > > S.v.: Wilhelm Bertels > > > * in Weidingen > > * in > > > ? > > > + vor 04.1793 in Manderscheid + vor 01.1781 in > > Manderscheid > > > 1. Katharina * Manderscheid ~ 08.09.1752 Waxweiler > > > P.: Nikolaus Ketten,Waxweiler ; Katharina Bertel,Oberweidingen > > > oo 30.04.1793 Roth an der Our ALBER Johann / aus Altwies/Lux. > > > (Wittwer, S.v.: Karl Alber und Margaretha Vendel aus Altwies) > > > > > > 6 BREUERS Nikolaus oo > KULEN, > > Barbara > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Ron in Folsom > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > > to unsubscribe > > > > > >

You got the birth, marriage and death answers already. ( *, oo, +) ~ means baptized S.v. means Son of, so Johann Bertels would be the son of Wilhelm Bertels. P. could mean several things. It could be an abbreviation for patrinus--Latin for Godfather. If it's on a baptism entry and it's not the parents, that could be what it means (also pastor). The <101> COULD be a reference to a record in a Familienbücher or the page in the church records where the event took place (perhaps the marriage record was on page 101). This site has a lot of common abbreviations for German genealogy. http://www.genealogienetz.de/misc/gensig.html At 03:01 AM 3/14/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >Would someone please enlighten me as to these and other abbreviations >shown/not shown in this example? > > oo >S.v.: ><101> >* >+ vor >P.: Pam [email protected] http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Woods/6771/

Ron, Those are the German genealogy symbols. They've been around a long time. oo is handwritten as the infinity symbol & stands for a marriage. * is birth + is handwritten as a cross & stands for death Tv is not television, it's "daughter of" I've seen sites with lengthy lists of symbols & what they mean, just put "German genealogy symbols" in a search engine. Kathy ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Holmquist Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] abbreviations Hi folks, Would someone please enlighten me as to these and other abbreviations shown/not shown in this example? oo S.v.: <101> * + vor P.: etc. 5 BERTELS Johann oo 16.11.1751 N. Magdalena <101> Ackerer in Waxweiler Ackerin Hausname (HN): Terres S.v.: Wilhelm Bertels * in Weidingen * in ? + vor 04.1793 in Manderscheid + vor 01.1781 in Manderscheid 1. Katharina * Manderscheid ~ 08.09.1752 Waxweiler P.: Nikolaus Ketten,Waxweiler ; Katharina Bertel,Oberweidingen oo 30.04.1793 Roth an der Our ALBER Johann / aus Altwies/Lux. (Wittwer, S.v.: Karl Alber und Margaretha Vendel aus Altwies) 6 BREUERS Nikolaus oo KULEN, Barbara Thanks, Ron in Folsom ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html to unsubscribeGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

Hi folks, Would someone please enlighten me as to these and other abbreviations shown/not shown in this example? oo S.v.: <101> * + vor P.: etc. 5 BERTELS Johann oo 16.11.1751 N. Magdalena <101> Ackerer in Waxweiler Ackerin Hausname (HN): Terres S.v.: Wilhelm Bertels * in Weidingen * in ? + vor 04.1793 in Manderscheid + vor 01.1781 in Manderscheid 1. Katharina * Manderscheid ~ 08.09.1752 Waxweiler P.: Nikolaus Ketten,Waxweiler ; Katharina Bertel,Oberweidingen oo 30.04.1793 Roth an der Our ALBER Johann / aus Altwies/Lux. (Wittwer, S.v.: Karl Alber und Margaretha Vendel aus Altwies) 6 BREUERS Nikolaus oo KULEN, Barbara Thanks, Ron in Folsom

Well done, the Trier-Roots-List! Thank you all for so many excellent and thought-provoking comments on the languages of the Saar and Rhineland-Palatinate (and wider regions). It was just fascinating, as were the various weblinks to linguistic maps. You've given me much to ponder, and I am in your debt. Best wishes, Chanda Seibert Blitch

The terms "high-german" (Hochdeutsch, spoken from ca 1350 until now), middle high german (Mittelhochdeutsch spoken from ca 1050-1350 a.c.) and "old high german" (Althochdeutsch, spoken from ca 500-1050 a.c.) refer not to a territory or region but to the time when it was spoken. The correct geographic terms are: lower german (nieder- or plattdeutsch, spoken in Lower Saxony, Hamburg, Schleswig Holstein etc.), middle german (Mitteldeutsch, spoken in the Rhineland, Palatinate, Thuringia, Saxony etc) and upper german (oberdeutsch, spoken in Wurtemberg, Baden, Bavaria, Austria, Switzerland). There are three main dialect groups in the Rhineland-Palatinate and Saarland region (they all belong to mitteldeutsch). Along the Mosel river, in Luxemburg the Eifel and in the northern part of the Hunsrueck there is a dialect spoken that is called "Moselfraenkisch" . In the northern Eifel (the borderline is mainly the same as the border between rhineland palatinate and northrine-westphalia) there is a dialect spoken that is called "ripuarisch". The dialect, which is spoken in saarland/pfalz region is called "rheinfraenkisch". The people call it just "saarlaendisch" and "paelzisch". In my ears (I grew up learning a south eifel dialect) "saarlaendisch" and "paelzisch" sounds very strange and it is hard or impossible to understand, while it is very easy for me to listen and speak to luxemburgers and even people from the north Eifel, Koblenz and Cologne region. Look at: http://gaer27.uni-trier.de/CLL/Dialekte1.gif for a dialect map of Germany, or at: http://www.suertenich.com/html/moselfr.html for a map of the dialects in the rhineland palatinate/saarland region. To hear a sample of these dialects, click at: http://www.uni-marburg.de/dsa/dtdialekte.html. All speakers say the same sentence (in Winter, the dry leaves are flying through the air). A characteristic sign of our dialect is that we use a "p" instead of the "pf" (we say Appel, not "Apfel" or "Perd" not "Pferd") and a "t" instead of an "s" (we say "dat" not "das" or "wat" not "was"). This has to do with the so called germanic sound shift. Most dialect speakers in the region have problems to pronounce a "ch". It all sounds like a "sch". So it is very easy to recognize people of our region, if you meet them somewhere abroad. A lot of words in our dialect are of french origin (for example: "Trottoir" instead of "buerger- oder Gehsteig"), especially in Luxemburg and Trier region. That was only a brief introduction in linguistic history of our region. Hope, it was not to complicated and my english was not to bad. Regards, Ernst Mettlach, Trier/Germany

Hi everybody, Middle High German was not a dialect but an early form of German as we know it today, used mostly by knighthood and nobility, about 1050 to 1350. As such, it has been the basis for Modern German. High German is derived from the Hanover dialect. People in Trier, around the Mosel, in Luxembourg, the Eifel and in the Hunsrueck region still speak a dialect called Moselfraenkisch (in English this might be called "Mosel franconian"). The vocabulary of Letzeburgisch, spoken in and around Luxembourg, has been strongly influenced by French and Dutch and thus sounds differently. The Eifel Moselfraenkisch (at least near the broder to Luxembourg) sounds similar. Stronger than some other Moselfraenkisch-dialects, the Trier dialect has been influenced by French, too. In the Saarland people rather speak Rheinpfaelzisch. Of course the dialects tend to merge around the language borders. Have a look at a language map that I found on the Internet. I put it on my server for you. It is in German and of poor quality, but might a help a bit. http://www.genealogie-neu.de/img/karte_westmitteldeutsch.jpg Cheers, Anne ______ currently looking for Neu, Hildebrand, Echternach and Roessler (Hunsrueck/Saarland) and Unfried, Wawerzinek (Silesia) ________________________________________________________________ Keine verlorenen Lotto-Quittungen, keine vergessenen Gewinne mehr! Beim WEB.DE Lottoservice: http://tippen2.web.de/?x=13