Ernst, Thanks so much for all the historical insight about jurisdictions in the territories of present day Rheinland-Pfalz and Saarland. I'm happy Kathy Lenerz posed the questions and appreciate your expertise in the answers.I never seemed quite right to say my great-grandfather was born in Saarland when the entity did not even exist at the time of his birth. Indeed, had I been able to ask him if he were born in "Saarland" I'm sure it wouldn't have made sense to him. The same holds true for ancestors in Daun, Dreis-Brück, Waldkönigen, Kirchweiler, Neunkirchen, Steinborn, etc. Please do let us know what bibliography or other sources one might consult regarding this fascinating history. Like Kathy Lenerz, I also read and understand German fairly well. I do get stuck on unusual phrases and most archaic words and expressions on often finds in the ancient documents. Thank you most heartily Ernst! Best wishes, Joe Schmitt (Oakland, CA) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathy Lenerz" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > Ernst, > Sounds like I posed a real hair-splitting question that only a lawyer would > enjoy! I would really like to read more about the history of the Trier > region. I have several volumes on German history, but they do not go into > the level of detail I would like about this area. You are obviously very > knowledgeable about its history. Can you recommend any good books? With > effort, I can read German (but can write or speak only a little), so > language is not a barrier. > Thanks again for your wonderful detailed information. > Kathy Lenerz > > > Ernst Mettlach wrote: > > > > Kathy, > > a really interesting question and not easy to answer! Definetely, your > > gggrandfather was not born as a citizen of the Electorate of Trier. All > > clerical Territories (except Mainz), 45 of the 51 immediate imperial cities > > and most of the smaller principalties and counties in the german empire were > > secularized and disintegrated in the so called > > "Reichsdeputationshauptschluss" in 1803. So the Electorate of Trier ended > > it`s existence de facto after french occupation in 1794 and de jure after > > the treaty of Luneville and the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss in 1803. It > > was never re-established. The territories on the right side of the Rhine > > were given to Prussia (its Territory growed by 489%), Baden (738% growth), > > Wuerttemberg (414%+) and Bavaria (144%+). France had taken the terr. left of > > the Rhine in 1801. > > I don`t know exactly, when it was clear, that Prussia would stay in the > > Rhineland. They wanted it from the beginning on, but they had to negotiate a > > lot with England, Austria and France who feared a hegemonic Prussia. After > > the first Treaty of Paris in March 30, 1814, it was not so clear. The > > territories of the former french departement de la sarre (but only the parts > > on the right side of the river Mosel) were ruled by a mixed > > bavarian-austrian interim-administration with seat in Bad Kreuznach. In > > January 1815 it was clear, that Prussia could annect the Rhineland, after > > giving up its claims on the Kingdom of Saxonia in East/Middle Germany. In > > May 1815, the Prussians proclamated the unification of Trier and Prussia, > > this act was confirmed by the Vienna Congress (were Europe was reorganised) > > in June 1815. > > So your gggrandfather was born right in the gap between french and prussian > > rule. I can`t tell you what this area was by law, this is a difficult case > > for students of international law. But in a way this is hair-splitting, > > because powerful prussian troops were garrisoned in the forts of the region > > (Napoleon fled from Elba/Mediteranean Sea in March 1815 and threatened the > > region again with his army) and one month after his birth, it was clear that > > Prussia made the race. So it is more proper to say he was born in Prussia. > > Again, this is a very interesting topic. I will research it, if I have more > > time (if this will ever happen!) or ask someone who knows history of this > > time better than me. > > > > Ernst Mettlach > > Trier/Deutschland > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> > > To: Ernst Mettlach <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 4:13 PM > > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > > > Ernst, > > > Thanks for your detailed account of the historical situation of those > > times > > > and the maps. Previous maps and histories I had found just simply did not > > > give me the detail I was looking for. > > > > > > Your information leads to further questions: > > > So if my gggrandfather was born in December, 1814 in Britten, what > > > country/political jurisdiction would you say that occurred in? Limbo? If > > > the Peace Treaty of Paris removed that area from France in March, 1814, > > did > > > it also give that area to Prussia at that time? Or did Prussia not > > > formally own that territory until May, 1815 when the unification was > > > declared? If in the interim between March, 1814 and May, 1815 that area > > > was just militarily ruled by Prussia, would it be more proper to say he > > was > > > born in the Electorate of Trier or in Prussia? > > > Thanks again for your help, > > > Kathy Lenerz > > > >

An Abtei is an abbey and its properties. The prefix "Reichs" indicates it had an official, governmental grant of land or "right" to exist. Thomas Kohn p.s. Gene, I have your family name in my family, when Reinert family married the Gillen family, either in Caledonia MN or in Tipton KS. Please contact me if either of these locations fit your information. In a message dated 6/2/02 12:02:51 EST, [email protected] writes: > From: "Eugene Gillen" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > On a map of the Rheinland-Pfalz from 1789, there is an area around PRUM > called REICHSABTEI. Any one know what is REICHSABTEI? > please see:http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm---------- > Thanks, > Gene Gillen

Kathy, Thanks for the directions to the Bistumarchiv. Earlier information from another researcher indicated that p'copies were available, but that they were quite expensive, perhaps 5e per page (that's about $4.50). But that was old information, and things may have changed. Do you know of other archives in the area of Trier, where one might find old newspapers, city/village administrative records, taxation records, conscription records? I have been researching the catalogs of the archives in Köln, Koblenz, and others, but I haven't had a lot of luck so far. An essential problem is knowing the best keywords for searches online, in German. Thomas Kohn Dayton OH researching the towns of Igel, Wasserliesch, Oberbilligerbrücke, Wasserbillig, Langsur, Tawern, Temmels, Mertert, Grewenich for KOHN, REINERT, DAHM, BLASIUS, GHIWER (also KIEFER), SCHARFBILLIG, KESSLER, PETERS, SIX, GASPER, GILLEN, STREIT, GRADIG, PIROTTE, SCHANDEGG (also SCHADEGG), SCHANDLER, SCHWINDEN, SIMEON, THUMMEL. In a message dated 6/2/02 12:02:51 EST, [email protected] writes: > Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 05:59:39 -0400 > From: "kathy metzen" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Archives in Trier/Bitburg area > > Ralph, > Take a notebook & pencil for the Bistumarchiv. It's on Jesuittenstrasse. > From the Porta Nigra, walk down Simmeonstrasse to the Hauptmarkt. The street > splits. Bear left. Jesuittenstrasse is on the left. > You must sign in and put your belongings in a locker. No photocopies. Not > every book in the Archiv is available on microfilm. At the Bistumarchiv, you > will be handling the actual churchbooks. The people behind the counter are > quite fluent in American English. Spend a couple of hours there, then go off > & be a tourist. > If you will be in Bitburg, check the family books at Haus Beda. You can > make photocopies, there. > If you trace any of your Marx to Priest, let me know. > Kathy

Hello all list members, Not sure if this is the right way to reply as this is my first time doing this. I have enjoyed reading all the information supplied by everyone so thought I might be able to help someone and at the same time ask a question. First several years ago I happened to find a German book in English for the following towns: Einwhner Von Zush, Neuhutten, Damflos 1574 bis 1820. Inhabitants of Zusch, Neuhutten, Damflos (in English) for 1574-1820 Author Walter Petto If anyone is interested you can order it thru your in-ter library loan at you local library from: Benton Harbor Public Library 213 E. Wall Street Benton Harbor, Mi. 49022 Everything is translated into English even the stories about each town. This is a book with all families in the area listed in alphabetical order making it easy to find your ancestors. Now my question is this: does-- anyone now if they have more of these book translated into English? I,m especially looking for the towns of Gusenburg and Sauscheid or vicinity.(This is near the city of Hermeskeil) Any help would certainly be appreciated as my Geman is very limited. Thanks everyone for reading my questions. Geri in Wisconsin. [email protected] wrote: > Subject: > > TRIER-ROOTS-D Digest Volume 02 : Issue 121 > > Today's Topics: > #1 [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Archives in Trier/ ["Ralph Eckard" <[email protected]>] > #2 [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundar [Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]] > #3 Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical bou ["W. David Samuelsen" <[email protected]] > #4 Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Archives in Tr ["kathy metzen" <[email protected]] > #5 Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical bou ["Ernst Mettlach" <[email protected]] > #6 Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical bou ["Eugene Gillen" <[email protected]] > > Administrivia: > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Archives in Trier/Bitburg area > Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 21:28:28 -0700 > From: "Ralph Eckard" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > > Dear list members, > This is my first request but have enjoyed reading all the info sliding by my computer screen. I am heading to Trier and would like to know if there is any value in trying to look up information in any archive. I have looked at the Mormon library films for birth records. > > The villages I am interested in are Menningen, Eisenach and Edingen. All are located just to the north of Trier. The surnames I am interested in are Schoeben, Marx, and Dimmer. > > Thanks, Ralph > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 04:01:57 -0400 > From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, then > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > Thanks for any help on this, > Kathy Lenerz > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 02:19:29 -0600 > From: "W. David Samuelsen" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > > not ceded. Napoleonic troops occupied 1794 until 1815. The records > during that time are in French since I am familiar with records for > those areas - civil registration in French, while parish records > are in German or Germanic Latin. > > Hunsruck is north of Greimerath, Britten, Wadern in question. > > After 1815, Rheinprovinz returned to Prussian rule along with > additional concessions as result of Congress of Vienna 1815, > consolidating the area, including annexation of eastern part of > Luxembourg. One area deep inside the Rheinprovinz was part of > Duchy of Oldenburg. Prussia didn't get it until the other part > of the duchy located near Hannover was annexed. > > David > David > > Kathy Lenerz wrote: > > > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, then > > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > > Thanks for any help on this, > > Kathy Lenerz > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > to unsubscribe > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Archives in Trier/Bitburg area > Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 05:59:39 -0400 > From: "kathy metzen" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > > > Ralph, > Take a notebook & pencil for the Bistumarchiv. It's on Jesuittenstrasse. From the Porta Nigra, walk down Simmeonstrasse to the Hauptmarkt. The street splits. Bear left. Jesuittenstrasse is on the left. > You must sign in and put your belongings in a locker. No photocopies. Not every book in the Archiv is available on microfilm. At the Bistumarchiv, you will be handling the actual churchbooks. The people behind the counter are quite fluent in American English. Spend a couple of hours there, then go off & be a tourist. > If you will be in Bitburg, check the family books at Haus Beda. You can make photocopies, there. > If you trace any of your Marx to Priest, let me know. > Kathy > > Dear list members, > This is my first request but have enjoyed reading all the info sliding by my computer screen. I am heading to Trier and would like to know if there is any value in trying to look up information in any archive. I have looked at the Mormon library films for birth records. > > The villages I am interested in are Menningen, Eisenach and Edingen. All are located just to the north of Trier. The surnames I am interested in are Schoeben, Marx, and Dimmer. > > Thanks, RalphGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 13:34:38 +0200 > From: "Ernst Mettlach" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > > Kathy, > Wadern did definetely not belong to the Electorate of Trier. It was a part > of the so called "Herrschaft (Lordship?) Dagstuhl" until it was occupied by > the French in 1794. I`m not sure about Greimerath and Britten, but I believe > these villages belonged to the Electorate of Trierand not to the Herrschaft > Dagstuhl. Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/saar.htm and > http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm and compare this map with an > actual map of the area. > For the rest of the history, you`re right. The Electorate of Trier was > occupied in August 1794 by french revolutionary troops. > In the treaty of Luneville (February 9 1801) the territories of the > electorates of Trier, Cologne and Mainz situated on the left side of the > river Rhine as well as the former austrian Netherlands were formally ceded > to France. So the whole Hunsrueck (Wadern belongs to the so called > "Schwarzwaelder Hunsrueck") was de jure and de facto part of the Republic of > France. The region around Trier and western Hunsrueck belonged to the new > Departement de la Sarre, with the capital Trier. > On January 5 1814, Trier was taken by prussian troops. In the Peace Treaty > of Paris (March 30 1814), France was reduced to its borders of 1792, on May > 28 1815 the unification Trier-Prussia was proclamated in Trier. Most smaller > territories like the Herrschaft Dagstuhl were given to Prussia too. > The Rheinprovinz of Prussia was founded in 1816 (April, 18). It was divided > in 6 "Regierungsbezirke": Trier, Koblenz, Duesseldorf, Kleve and Cologne. > The last change was done in 1834: The prussian government bought the > Principalty of Lichtenberg (the area around St. Wendel) from the duchy of > Sachsen-Coburg. Until 1919, nothing changed then in the Regierungsbezirk > Trier. > > Ernst Mettlach > Trier > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:01 AM > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, > then > > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > > Thanks for any help on this, > > Kathy Lenerz > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > to unsubscribe > > > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:11:37 -0700 > From: "Eugene Gillen" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > > On a map of the Rheinland-Pfalz from 1789, there is an area around PRUM > called REICHSABTEI. Any one know what is REICHSABTEI? > please see:http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm---------- > Thanks, > Gene Gillen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ernst Mettlach" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 4:34 AM > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > Kathy, > Wadern did definetely not belong to the Electorate of Trier. It was a part > of the so called "Herrschaft (Lordship?) Dagstuhl" until it was occupied by > the French in 1794. I`m not sure about Greimerath and Britten, but I believe > these villages belonged to the Electorate of Trierand not to the Herrschaft > Dagstuhl. Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/saar.htm and > http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm and compare this map with an > actual map of the area. > For the rest of the history, you`re right. The Electorate of Trier was > occupied in August 1794 by french revolutionary troops. > In the treaty of Luneville (February 9 1801) the territories of the > electorates of Trier, Cologne and Mainz situated on the left side of the > river Rhine as well as the former austrian Netherlands were formally ceded > to France. So the whole Hunsrueck (Wadern belongs to the so called > "Schwarzwaelder Hunsrueck") was de jure and de facto part of the Republic of > France. The region around Trier and western Hunsrueck belonged to the new > Departement de la Sarre, with the capital Trier. > On January 5 1814, Trier was taken by prussian troops. In the Peace Treaty > of Paris (March 30 1814), France was reduced to its borders of 1792, on May > 28 1815 the unification Trier-Prussia was proclamated in Trier. Most smaller > territories like the Herrschaft Dagstuhl were given to Prussia too. > The Rheinprovinz of Prussia was founded in 1816 (April, 18). It was divided > in 6 "Regierungsbezirke": Trier, Koblenz, Duesseldorf, Kleve and Cologne. > The last change was done in 1834: The prussian government bought the > Principalty of Lichtenberg (the area around St. Wendel) from the duchy of > Sachsen-Coburg. Until 1919, nothing changed then in the Regierungsbezirk > Trier. > > Ernst Mettlach > Trier > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:01 AM > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, > then > > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > > Thanks for any help on this, > > Kathy Lenerz > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > to unsubscribe > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe

Reich = empire Abtei = abbey Reichsabtei = abbey of the empire Barbara France ----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Eugene Gillen" <[email protected]> À : <[email protected]> Envoyé : dimanche 2 juin 2002 18:11 Objet : Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > On a map of the Rheinland-Pfalz from 1789, there is an area around PRUM > called REICHSABTEI. Any one know what is REICHSABTEI? > please see:http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm---------- > Thanks, > Gene Gillen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ernst Mettlach" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 4:34 AM > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > Kathy, > Wadern did definetely not belong to the Electorate of Trier. It was a part > of the so called "Herrschaft (Lordship?) Dagstuhl" until it was occupied by > the French in 1794. I`m not sure about Greimerath and Britten, but I believe > these villages belonged to the Electorate of Trierand not to the Herrschaft > Dagstuhl. Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/saar.htm and > http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm and compare this map with an > actual map of the area. > For the rest of the history, you`re right. The Electorate of Trier was > occupied in August 1794 by french revolutionary troops. > In the treaty of Luneville (February 9 1801) the territories of the > electorates of Trier, Cologne and Mainz situated on the left side of the > river Rhine as well as the former austrian Netherlands were formally ceded > to France. So the whole Hunsrueck (Wadern belongs to the so called > "Schwarzwaelder Hunsrueck") was de jure and de facto part of the Republic of > France. The region around Trier and western Hunsrueck belonged to the new > Departement de la Sarre, with the capital Trier. > On January 5 1814, Trier was taken by prussian troops. In the Peace Treaty > of Paris (March 30 1814), France was reduced to its borders of 1792, on May > 28 1815 the unification Trier-Prussia was proclamated in Trier. Most smaller > territories like the Herrschaft Dagstuhl were given to Prussia too. > The Rheinprovinz of Prussia was founded in 1816 (April, 18). It was divided > in 6 "Regierungsbezirke": Trier, Koblenz, Duesseldorf, Kleve and Cologne. > The last change was done in 1834: The prussian government bought the > Principalty of Lichtenberg (the area around St. Wendel) from the duchy of > Sachsen-Coburg. Until 1919, nothing changed then in the Regierungsbezirk > Trier. > > Ernst Mettlach > Trier > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:01 AM > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, > then > > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > > Thanks for any help on this, > > Kathy Lenerz > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > to unsubscribe > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe >

Abtei = Abbey, Reichs = imperial. This means, that the Reichsabtei Pruem was independent from any Lord Elector or Duke etc. It was only responsible to the german emperor. This status is called "Unmittelbarkeit" or "Reichsunmittelbarkeit" (~ Immediacy?). This was a very privileged status and Pruem was an extremely wealthy and mighty Abbey. Ernst ----- Original Message ----- From: Eugene Gillen <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > On a map of the Rheinland-Pfalz from 1789, there is an area around PRUM > called REICHSABTEI. Any one know what is REICHSABTEI? > please see:http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm---------- > Thanks, > Gene Gillen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ernst Mettlach" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 4:34 AM > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > Kathy, > Wadern did definetely not belong to the Electorate of Trier. It was a part > of the so called "Herrschaft (Lordship?) Dagstuhl" until it was occupied by > the French in 1794. I`m not sure about Greimerath and Britten, but I believe > these villages belonged to the Electorate of Trierand not to the Herrschaft > Dagstuhl. Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/saar.htm and > http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm and compare this map with an > actual map of the area. > For the rest of the history, you`re right. The Electorate of Trier was > occupied in August 1794 by french revolutionary troops. > In the treaty of Luneville (February 9 1801) the territories of the > electorates of Trier, Cologne and Mainz situated on the left side of the > river Rhine as well as the former austrian Netherlands were formally ceded > to France. So the whole Hunsrueck (Wadern belongs to the so called > "Schwarzwaelder Hunsrueck") was de jure and de facto part of the Republic of > France. The region around Trier and western Hunsrueck belonged to the new > Departement de la Sarre, with the capital Trier. > On January 5 1814, Trier was taken by prussian troops. In the Peace Treaty > of Paris (March 30 1814), France was reduced to its borders of 1792, on May > 28 1815 the unification Trier-Prussia was proclamated in Trier. Most smaller > territories like the Herrschaft Dagstuhl were given to Prussia too. > The Rheinprovinz of Prussia was founded in 1816 (April, 18). It was divided > in 6 "Regierungsbezirke": Trier, Koblenz, Duesseldorf, Kleve and Cologne. > The last change was done in 1834: The prussian government bought the > Principalty of Lichtenberg (the area around St. Wendel) from the duchy of > Sachsen-Coburg. Until 1919, nothing changed then in the Regierungsbezirk > Trier. > > Ernst Mettlach > Trier > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:01 AM > Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, > then > > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > > Thanks for any help on this, > > Kathy Lenerz > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > to unsubscribe > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe >

Hello, the story behind the little boys covered with goat skins is the story of a tricky masquerade during the the 30 years war (1618 - 48) when the whole region suffered under swedish, french, spanish or german troops, who plundered cities and villages. Bitburg was besieged by a swedish army, who was ill-famed for its cruelty. After a few days, the bitburgers had neither ammunition, nor food. In this case of emergency, they had an idea. They took some goat skins and pulled them over little boys, who behaved like goats and showed upon the city walls. As the swedish soldiers saw this, they thought, these were living goats and that the city had enough food for a long siege. They stopped the siege and Bitburg was saved by these little boys in goat skins. Today, the nickname of the Bitburgers is still "Gaessestrepper" (dialect: Gaes = Goat, streppen ~ to pull over). The area around Wittlich is involved in the history, we discussed. Wittlich as part of the Electorate of Trier as well as some smaller territorries nearby were occupied by french troops in 1794 and ceded to France in 1801. The rest of the story is the same as in the first mail. Ernst Mettlach Trier ----- Original Message ----- From: Arlene Shoemaker <[email protected]> To: Ernst Mettlach <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries My family originated in Seinsfeld bei Wittlich and I wonder if this area is included in the history you were discussing. I also wonder if anyone who is familiar with that general area know the story behind the sculpture in Bitburg of the little boys covered with goat skins. We loved the sculpture. Arlene At 01:34 PM 6/2/02 +0200, Ernst Mettlach wrote: >Kathy, >Wadern did definetely not belong to the Electorate of Trier. It was a part >of the so called "Herrschaft (Lordship?) Dagstuhl" until it was occupied by >the French in 1794. I`m not sure about Greimerath and Britten, but I believe >these villages belonged to the Electorate of Trierand not to the Herrschaft >Dagstuhl. Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/saar.htm and >http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm and compare this map with an >actual map of the area. >For the rest of the history, you`re right. The Electorate of Trier was >occupied in August 1794 by french revolutionary troops. >In the treaty of Luneville (February 9 1801) the territories of the >electorates of Trier, Cologne and Mainz situated on the left side of the >river Rhine as well as the former austrian Netherlands were formally ceded >to France. So the whole Hunsrueck (Wadern belongs to the so called >"Schwarzwaelder Hunsrueck") was de jure and de facto part of the Republic of >France. The region around Trier and western Hunsrueck belonged to the new >Departement de la Sarre, with the capital Trier. >On January 5 1814, Trier was taken by prussian troops. In the Peace Treaty >of Paris (March 30 1814), France was reduced to its borders of 1792, on May >28 1815 the unification Trier-Prussia was proclamated in Trier. Most smaller >territories like the Herrschaft Dagstuhl were given to Prussia too. >The Rheinprovinz of Prussia was founded in 1816 (April, 18). It was divided >in 6 "Regierungsbezirke": Trier, Koblenz, Duesseldorf, Kleve and Cologne. >The last change was done in 1834: The prussian government bought the >Principalty of Lichtenberg (the area around St. Wendel) from the duchy of >Sachsen-Coburg. Until 1919, nothing changed then in the Regierungsbezirk >Trier. > >Ernst Mettlach >Trier > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:01 AM >Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, >then > > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > > Thanks for any help on this, > > Kathy Lenerz > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > to unsubscribe > > > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to >http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html >to unsubscribe

Ernst, Sounds like I posed a real hair-splitting question that only a lawyer would enjoy! I would really like to read more about the history of the Trier region. I have several volumes on German history, but they do not go into the level of detail I would like about this area. You are obviously very knowledgeable about its history. Can you recommend any good books? With effort, I can read German (but can write or speak only a little), so language is not a barrier. Thanks again for your wonderful detailed information. Kathy Lenerz Ernst Mettlach wrote: > > Kathy, > a really interesting question and not easy to answer! Definetely, your > gggrandfather was not born as a citizen of the Electorate of Trier. All > clerical Territories (except Mainz), 45 of the 51 immediate imperial cities > and most of the smaller principalties and counties in the german empire were > secularized and disintegrated in the so called > "Reichsdeputationshauptschluss" in 1803. So the Electorate of Trier ended > it`s existence de facto after french occupation in 1794 and de jure after > the treaty of Luneville and the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss in 1803. It > was never re-established. The territories on the right side of the Rhine > were given to Prussia (its Territory growed by 489%), Baden (738% growth), > Wuerttemberg (414%+) and Bavaria (144%+). France had taken the terr. left of > the Rhine in 1801. > I don`t know exactly, when it was clear, that Prussia would stay in the > Rhineland. They wanted it from the beginning on, but they had to negotiate a > lot with England, Austria and France who feared a hegemonic Prussia. After > the first Treaty of Paris in March 30, 1814, it was not so clear. The > territories of the former french departement de la sarre (but only the parts > on the right side of the river Mosel) were ruled by a mixed > bavarian-austrian interim-administration with seat in Bad Kreuznach. In > January 1815 it was clear, that Prussia could annect the Rhineland, after > giving up its claims on the Kingdom of Saxonia in East/Middle Germany. In > May 1815, the Prussians proclamated the unification of Trier and Prussia, > this act was confirmed by the Vienna Congress (were Europe was reorganised) > in June 1815. > So your gggrandfather was born right in the gap between french and prussian > rule. I can`t tell you what this area was by law, this is a difficult case > for students of international law. But in a way this is hair-splitting, > because powerful prussian troops were garrisoned in the forts of the region > (Napoleon fled from Elba/Mediteranean Sea in March 1815 and threatened the > region again with his army) and one month after his birth, it was clear that > Prussia made the race. So it is more proper to say he was born in Prussia. > Again, this is a very interesting topic. I will research it, if I have more > time (if this will ever happen!) or ask someone who knows history of this > time better than me. > > Ernst Mettlach > Trier/Deutschland > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> > To: Ernst Mettlach <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 4:13 PM > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > Ernst, > > Thanks for your detailed account of the historical situation of those > times > > and the maps. Previous maps and histories I had found just simply did not > > give me the detail I was looking for. > > > > Your information leads to further questions: > > So if my gggrandfather was born in December, 1814 in Britten, what > > country/political jurisdiction would you say that occurred in? Limbo? If > > the Peace Treaty of Paris removed that area from France in March, 1814, > did > > it also give that area to Prussia at that time? Or did Prussia not > > formally own that territory until May, 1815 when the unification was > > declared? If in the interim between March, 1814 and May, 1815 that area > > was just militarily ruled by Prussia, would it be more proper to say he > was > > born in the Electorate of Trier or in Prussia? > > Thanks again for your help, > > Kathy Lenerz > >

In a message dated 5/31/02 2:03:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > I have found lists where my ancestors came from Germany to the USA, but are > there lists that show when and where they may have returned to Germany for > visits? I really need this information for my research. > > Thanks > > Tina Schadeberg > > Tina, Try the Ellis Island web site. Many people went back and forth to the "old country" even though their first arrival may not be on www.ellisisland.org because they came over before 1890. Peggy Riotte

Kathy, Wadern did definetely not belong to the Electorate of Trier. It was a part of the so called "Herrschaft (Lordship?) Dagstuhl" until it was occupied by the French in 1794. I`m not sure about Greimerath and Britten, but I believe these villages belonged to the Electorate of Trierand not to the Herrschaft Dagstuhl. Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/saar.htm and http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm and compare this map with an actual map of the area. For the rest of the history, you`re right. The Electorate of Trier was occupied in August 1794 by french revolutionary troops. In the treaty of Luneville (February 9 1801) the territories of the electorates of Trier, Cologne and Mainz situated on the left side of the river Rhine as well as the former austrian Netherlands were formally ceded to France. So the whole Hunsrueck (Wadern belongs to the so called "Schwarzwaelder Hunsrueck") was de jure and de facto part of the Republic of France. The region around Trier and western Hunsrueck belonged to the new Departement de la Sarre, with the capital Trier. On January 5 1814, Trier was taken by prussian troops. In the Peace Treaty of Paris (March 30 1814), France was reduced to its borders of 1792, on May 28 1815 the unification Trier-Prussia was proclamated in Trier. Most smaller territories like the Herrschaft Dagstuhl were given to Prussia too. The Rheinprovinz of Prussia was founded in 1816 (April, 18). It was divided in 6 "Regierungsbezirke": Trier, Koblenz, Duesseldorf, Kleve and Cologne. The last change was done in 1834: The prussian government bought the Principalty of Lichtenberg (the area around St. Wendel) from the duchy of Sachsen-Coburg. Until 1919, nothing changed then in the Regierungsbezirk Trier. Ernst Mettlach Trier ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:01 AM Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, then > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > Thanks for any help on this, > Kathy Lenerz > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe >

My family originated in Seinsfeld bei Wittlich and I wonder if this area is included in the history you were discussing. I also wonder if anyone who is familiar with that general area know the story behind the sculpture in Bitburg of the little boys covered with goat skins. We loved the sculpture. Arlene At 01:34 PM 6/2/02 +0200, Ernst Mettlach wrote: >Kathy, >Wadern did definetely not belong to the Electorate of Trier. It was a part >of the so called "Herrschaft (Lordship?) Dagstuhl" until it was occupied by >the French in 1794. I`m not sure about Greimerath and Britten, but I believe >these villages belonged to the Electorate of Trierand not to the Herrschaft >Dagstuhl. Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/saar.htm and >http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm and compare this map with an >actual map of the area. >For the rest of the history, you`re right. The Electorate of Trier was >occupied in August 1794 by french revolutionary troops. >In the treaty of Luneville (February 9 1801) the territories of the >electorates of Trier, Cologne and Mainz situated on the left side of the >river Rhine as well as the former austrian Netherlands were formally ceded >to France. So the whole Hunsrueck (Wadern belongs to the so called >"Schwarzwaelder Hunsrueck") was de jure and de facto part of the Republic of >France. The region around Trier and western Hunsrueck belonged to the new >Departement de la Sarre, with the capital Trier. >On January 5 1814, Trier was taken by prussian troops. In the Peace Treaty >of Paris (March 30 1814), France was reduced to its borders of 1792, on May >28 1815 the unification Trier-Prussia was proclamated in Trier. Most smaller >territories like the Herrschaft Dagstuhl were given to Prussia too. >The Rheinprovinz of Prussia was founded in 1816 (April, 18). It was divided >in 6 "Regierungsbezirke": Trier, Koblenz, Duesseldorf, Kleve and Cologne. >The last change was done in 1834: The prussian government bought the >Principalty of Lichtenberg (the area around St. Wendel) from the duchy of >Sachsen-Coburg. Until 1919, nothing changed then in the Regierungsbezirk >Trier. > >Ernst Mettlach >Trier > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:01 AM >Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > > > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, >then > > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > > Thanks for any help on this, > > Kathy Lenerz > > > > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > > to unsubscribe > > > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to >http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html >to unsubscribe

On a map of the Rheinland-Pfalz from 1789, there is an area around PRUM called REICHSABTEI. Any one know what is REICHSABTEI? please see:http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm---------- Thanks, Gene Gillen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernst Mettlach" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 4:34 AM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries Kathy, Wadern did definetely not belong to the Electorate of Trier. It was a part of the so called "Herrschaft (Lordship?) Dagstuhl" until it was occupied by the French in 1794. I`m not sure about Greimerath and Britten, but I believe these villages belonged to the Electorate of Trierand not to the Herrschaft Dagstuhl. Look at: http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/saar.htm and http://www.hoeckmann.de/deutschland/rhpfalz.htm and compare this map with an actual map of the area. For the rest of the history, you`re right. The Electorate of Trier was occupied in August 1794 by french revolutionary troops. In the treaty of Luneville (February 9 1801) the territories of the electorates of Trier, Cologne and Mainz situated on the left side of the river Rhine as well as the former austrian Netherlands were formally ceded to France. So the whole Hunsrueck (Wadern belongs to the so called "Schwarzwaelder Hunsrueck") was de jure and de facto part of the Republic of France. The region around Trier and western Hunsrueck belonged to the new Departement de la Sarre, with the capital Trier. On January 5 1814, Trier was taken by prussian troops. In the Peace Treaty of Paris (March 30 1814), France was reduced to its borders of 1792, on May 28 1815 the unification Trier-Prussia was proclamated in Trier. Most smaller territories like the Herrschaft Dagstuhl were given to Prussia too. The Rheinprovinz of Prussia was founded in 1816 (April, 18). It was divided in 6 "Regierungsbezirke": Trier, Koblenz, Duesseldorf, Kleve and Cologne. The last change was done in 1834: The prussian government bought the Principalty of Lichtenberg (the area around St. Wendel) from the duchy of Sachsen-Coburg. Until 1919, nothing changed then in the Regierungsbezirk Trier. Ernst Mettlach Trier ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Lenerz <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:01 AM Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Historical boundaries > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, then > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > Thanks for any help on this, > Kathy Lenerz > > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html to unsubscribe

Ralph, Take a notebook & pencil for the Bistumarchiv. It's on Jesuittenstrasse. From the Porta Nigra, walk down Simmeonstrasse to the Hauptmarkt. The street splits. Bear left. Jesuittenstrasse is on the left. You must sign in and put your belongings in a locker. No photocopies. Not every book in the Archiv is available on microfilm. At the Bistumarchiv, you will be handling the actual churchbooks. The people behind the counter are quite fluent in American English. Spend a couple of hours there, then go off & be a tourist. If you will be in Bitburg, check the family books at Haus Beda. You can make photocopies, there. If you trace any of your Marx to Priest, let me know. Kathy Dear list members, This is my first request but have enjoyed reading all the info sliding by my computer screen. I am heading to Trier and would like to know if there is any value in trying to look up information in any archive. I have looked at the Mormon library films for birth records. The villages I am interested in are Menningen, Eisenach and Edingen. All are located just to the north of Trier. The surnames I am interested in are Schoeben, Marx, and Dimmer. Thanks, RalphGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, then given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? Thanks for any help on this, Kathy Lenerz

not ceded. Napoleonic troops occupied 1794 until 1815. The records during that time are in French since I am familiar with records for those areas - civil registration in French, while parish records are in German or Germanic Latin. Hunsruck is north of Greimerath, Britten, Wadern in question. After 1815, Rheinprovinz returned to Prussian rule along with additional concessions as result of Congress of Vienna 1815, consolidating the area, including annexation of eastern part of Luxembourg. One area deep inside the Rheinprovinz was part of Duchy of Oldenburg. Prussia didn't get it until the other part of the duchy located near Hannover was annexed. David David Kathy Lenerz wrote: > > I try to record births, death, and marriages as occurring in the political > jurisdiction that existed at the time of the event. I'm trying to > determine exactly what political jurisdiction my ancestors live in from > 1792-1820. They lived in the Hunsrück in Greimerath, Britten, and Wadern. > I understand that the Electorate of Trier was ceded to France in 1801, then > given to Prussia in 1814. Is that correct? What political territory did > this area belong to pre-1801 while under French occupation? After > Napoleon, when did it formally become the Rheinprovinz of Prussia? > Thanks for any help on this, > Kathy Lenerz > > ==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html > to unsubscribe

Dear list members, This is my first request but have enjoyed reading all the info sliding by my computer screen. I am heading to Trier and would like to know if there is any value in trying to look up information in any archive. I have looked at the Mormon library films for birth records. The villages I am interested in are Menningen, Eisenach and Edingen. All are located just to the north of Trier. The surnames I am interested in are Schoeben, Marx, and Dimmer. Thanks, Ralph

add that due to bad weather might r a ship would have to travel either up or down the coast for a safe landing instead of their intended route. Debbie Strupp -----Original Message----- From: Richard Mondloch <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Friday, May 31, 2002 6:58 PM Subject: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] Re: German Ports & Migration Routes >Regarding your (Joe Schmitt) original query/message ........ >>an ancestor of mine settled in Jefferson County WI in 1847. He >>stated in his first papers (citizenship) that he entered the US in >"Buffalo, >>NY"......Would someone who actually arrived in New York then >>traveled through Buffalo declare that he first entered US >>at that port? > >Joe; > >I agree the reference to Buffalo on his "intent papers" (vs NY or Baltimore) >is somewhat puzzling. > >However, for a german emigrant arriving in the 1846 -1849 timeframe, it's >likely he landed in New York or Baltimore from Antwerp. Often a emigrant >arriving NY was ticketed thru and transferred directly to a steamer vessel >and headed up the Hudson. Possibly he considered Buffalo his port of entry >due to his thru-ticketing, or his having taken possession of his luggage >there, or staying over in Buffalo before catching the twice weekly steamer >to Detroit. > >While researching my own ancestors migration route to Wisconsin Territory in >early 1847, I eliminated several travel routes after looking into alternates >available in the winter of 1846 thru spring of 1847. > >I also checked other researcher's work for early Wisconsin settlers. The >NY-Buffalo-Detroit route was quite popular during this period and this is >supported by surviving documents (i.e. immigrant letters home where the >inland trip to Wisconsin was described in detail) > >In 1847, you could ticket thru to Milwaukee from Antwerp; there was No >immigration office (i.e.Gardens or Ellis), just a port authority and a >passenger manifest, and No port of Buffalo; steamer's were on the Hudson, >the Erie Canal was operating, & coach was also available between Albany & >Buffalo, Steamer's from Buffalo to Detroit were operating. Arrival in >Detroit during the winter months often required staying over until spring or >taking an overland coach to Chicago as the upper reaches of Lake Michigan >were frozen over. Trains between Detroit and Chicago were Not available yet! >However in just ten years, emigrants headed for Wisconsin would have other >options! > >Then there's the whole "first papers" process, I can imagine scenarios where >a german speaking emigrant might answer "Buffalo" when queried about his >landing place or point of entry to the US. Much depends on the when & how >the questions were posed, language used by the Clerk, and was translation of >terms needed, etc. > >In my case the intent papers say Germany & King of Holland for the >"Birthplace and Renouncing Allegiance" questions; Turns out, his birth >village was part of Prussia and he emigrated from Luxembourg, which was >under Holland's administration in 1847. Probably an interesting exchange >with the Clerk of Courts that day in Dec. 1847; especially if the clerk was >not german...The filled in data on the pre-printed English form appeared to >be the Clerks handwriting and differnent from his signature & other samples >I have of his writting; I'm sure my ancestor did not (and could not read) >the form, he likely answered the clerks questions and signed the form. >However the port of arrival, month, and year data were correct in my case >and this filing occurs just months, not years, after his arrival which lead >me to believe his arrival data was probably right. > >Hope this experience with 1847 migration routes to... and intent papers >from... Washington County, Wisc. helps you with your puzzle. > >Richard > >ps: I got lucky w/passenger manifests; from intent papers I had year, month >and port, then checked for Antwerp to New York arrivals (most likely route) >in January 1847 and found him on second spool of film viewed. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joanne Mello" <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 10:45 AM >Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] German Ports > > >> Hi Joe: >> >> My Schmitt ancestors came to Fond du Lac County, WI from Germany in >August >> 1847 and say they came through "Port of Buffalo". I haven't found them >in >> NY port records nor have I found them in any exit ports in Germany or >> France. Hope to try a Belgium port record sometime, if one is available. >> The Canadian port entry thought has been discussed on the list I see. So >> perhaps the Erie Canal transit route is what was used. >> >> I do know my Schmitt family came from Malborn, near Trier. >> >> Joanne (in CA) >> >> >> >> Joanne A. Smith Mello >> [email protected] >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe Schmitt" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 8:02 AM >> Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] German Ports >> >> >> > Kathy Lenerz [email protected] >> > >> > >> > Kathy, Thanks for your insight. I would like to pose one more related >> > question. An ancestor of mine settled in Jefferson County WI in 1847. >> He >> > stated in his first papers (citizenship) that he entered the US in >> "Buffalo, >> > NY". One cousin suggests he must have actually disembarked in NY and >> taken >> > the Erie Canal westward, as your typical route suggests. I have my >> doubts! >> > I wonder if he might have immigrated via Canada (Port of Montreal?) then >> > entered US at Buffalo. Since I haven't found any sources for "Buffalo >> > immigration" this remains a mute point! Would someone who actually >> arrived >> > in New York then traveled through Buffalo declare that he first entered >US >> > at that port? I would appreciate any insight! Thanks, Joe Schmitt >(CA) >> > >> > >> > aellis wrote: >> > >> > "I do not know what port my Grandfather, John Biever/Biewer left from >near >> > Borg, Prussia, however, he came through the Port of Detroit in June >1873. >> > He was on his way to Wisconsin. Since Detroit is on the Great Lakes and >> > borders Canada, I assume he came down the St. Lawrence River. Was there >a >> > special reason why they came through Great Lake Ports. >> > Alice" >> > >> > Alice, >> > Since the St. Lawrence Seaway wasn't built until the 1950s, it was not >> > possible for trans-Atlantic ships to travel to Detroit in 1873. Usually >> > passengers who took the water route to the Midwest disembarked in New >> York, >> > took a steamer up the Hudson River to near Albany, then took the Erie >> Canal >> > across New York to Buffalo. There they caught a Great Lakes steamer, >> which >> > typically stopped in Detroit, Milwaukee, and Chicago. This was the >> typical >> > route in the 1850s, however by the 1870s trains were a better and more >> > frequent option for most immigrants. >> > Hope this helps, >> > Kathy Lenerz >> > >> > ______________________________ >> > > >==== TRIER-ROOTS Mailing List ==== >Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to >http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/TRIER-ROOTS.html >to unsubscribe >

Regarding your (Joe Schmitt) original query/message ........ >an ancestor of mine settled in Jefferson County WI in 1847. He >stated in his first papers (citizenship) that he entered the US in "Buffalo, >NY"......Would someone who actually arrived in New York then >traveled through Buffalo declare that he first entered US >at that port? Joe; I agree the reference to Buffalo on his "intent papers" (vs NY or Baltimore) is somewhat puzzling. However, for a german emigrant arriving in the 1846 -1849 timeframe, it's likely he landed in New York or Baltimore from Antwerp. Often a emigrant arriving NY was ticketed thru and transferred directly to a steamer vessel and headed up the Hudson. Possibly he considered Buffalo his port of entry due to his thru-ticketing, or his having taken possession of his luggage there, or staying over in Buffalo before catching the twice weekly steamer to Detroit. While researching my own ancestors migration route to Wisconsin Territory in early 1847, I eliminated several travel routes after looking into alternates available in the winter of 1846 thru spring of 1847. I also checked other researcher's work for early Wisconsin settlers. The NY-Buffalo-Detroit route was quite popular during this period and this is supported by surviving documents (i.e. immigrant letters home where the inland trip to Wisconsin was described in detail) In 1847, you could ticket thru to Milwaukee from Antwerp; there was No immigration office (i.e.Gardens or Ellis), just a port authority and a passenger manifest, and No port of Buffalo; steamer's were on the Hudson, the Erie Canal was operating, & coach was also available between Albany & Buffalo, Steamer's from Buffalo to Detroit were operating. Arrival in Detroit during the winter months often required staying over until spring or taking an overland coach to Chicago as the upper reaches of Lake Michigan were frozen over. Trains between Detroit and Chicago were Not available yet! However in just ten years, emigrants headed for Wisconsin would have other options! Then there's the whole "first papers" process, I can imagine scenarios where a german speaking emigrant might answer "Buffalo" when queried about his landing place or point of entry to the US. Much depends on the when & how the questions were posed, language used by the Clerk, and was translation of terms needed, etc. In my case the intent papers say Germany & King of Holland for the "Birthplace and Renouncing Allegiance" questions; Turns out, his birth village was part of Prussia and he emigrated from Luxembourg, which was under Holland's administration in 1847. Probably an interesting exchange with the Clerk of Courts that day in Dec. 1847; especially if the clerk was not german...The filled in data on the pre-printed English form appeared to be the Clerks handwriting and differnent from his signature & other samples I have of his writting; I'm sure my ancestor did not (and could not read) the form, he likely answered the clerks questions and signed the form. However the port of arrival, month, and year data were correct in my case and this filing occurs just months, not years, after his arrival which lead me to believe his arrival data was probably right. Hope this experience with 1847 migration routes to... and intent papers from... Washington County, Wisc. helps you with your puzzle. Richard ps: I got lucky w/passenger manifests; from intent papers I had year, month and port, then checked for Antwerp to New York arrivals (most likely route) in January 1847 and found him on second spool of film viewed. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanne Mello" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] German Ports > Hi Joe: > > My Schmitt ancestors came to Fond du Lac County, WI from Germany in August > 1847 and say they came through "Port of Buffalo". I haven't found them in > NY port records nor have I found them in any exit ports in Germany or > France. Hope to try a Belgium port record sometime, if one is available. > The Canadian port entry thought has been discussed on the list I see. So > perhaps the Erie Canal transit route is what was used. > > I do know my Schmitt family came from Malborn, near Trier. > > Joanne (in CA) > > > > Joanne A. Smith Mello > [email protected] > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Schmitt" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 8:02 AM > Subject: Re: [TRIER-ROOTS-L] German Ports > > > > Kathy Lenerz [email protected] > > > > > > Kathy, Thanks for your insight. I would like to pose one more related > > question. An ancestor of mine settled in Jefferson County WI in 1847. > He > > stated in his first papers (citizenship) that he entered the US in > "Buffalo, > > NY". One cousin suggests he must have actually disembarked in NY and > taken > > the Erie Canal westward, as your typical route suggests. I have my > doubts! > > I wonder if he might have immigrated via Canada (Port of Montreal?) then > > entered US at Buffalo. Since I haven't found any sources for "Buffalo > > immigration" this remains a mute point! Would someone who actually > arrived > > in New York then traveled through Buffalo declare that he first entered US > > at that port? I would appreciate any insight! Thanks, Joe Schmitt (CA) > > > > > > aellis wrote: > > > > "I do not know what port my Grandfather, John Biever/Biewer left from near > > Borg, Prussia, however, he came through the Port of Detroit in June 1873. > > He was on his way to Wisconsin. Since Detroit is on the Great Lakes and > > borders Canada, I assume he came down the St. Lawrence River. Was there a > > special reason why they came through Great Lake Ports. > > Alice" > > > > Alice, > > Since the St. Lawrence Seaway wasn't built until the 1950s, it was not > > possible for trans-Atlantic ships to travel to Detroit in 1873. Usually > > passengers who took the water route to the Midwest disembarked in New > York, > > took a steamer up the Hudson River to near Albany, then took the Erie > Canal > > across New York to Buffalo. There they caught a Great Lakes steamer, > which > > typically stopped in Detroit, Milwaukee, and Chicago. This was the > typical > > route in the 1850s, however by the 1870s trains were a better and more > > frequent option for most immigrants. > > Hope this helps, > > Kathy Lenerz > > > > ______________________________ >

I have found lists where my ancestors came from Germany to the USA, but are there lists that show when and where they may have returned to Germany for visits? I really need this information for my research. Thanks Tina Schadeberg

Hello, Further to this discussion, in the mid-1800s, Michigan was the center of the timber industry. Later, this moved to northern Wisconsin. An immigrant could work for a year or so in the timber industry and get enough to buy a farm. This was "good news" and word spread. Also, rare and unusual minerals in the bay at Michigan were great for the production of chemicals and soon the chemical industry needed workers as well. Certainly word spread to those still in Germany about the availability of jobs in Michigan. It is understandable that emigration agents would capitalize on this and have "package deals" where one could pre-pay his voyage and receive ship and connecting transportation to Michigan all in one. Immigrants followed employment. In AMERICAN PASSENGER ARRIVAL RECORDS by Michael Tepper, he says Canadian steamship companies and railway lines encouraged many people bound for the U.S. to travel through Canada by offering them lower fares. One company, the Hansa Line, plying between Liverpool and Quebec and Montreal, took on passengers in Antwerp and Hamburg and offered passage to the U.S. through Canada via the Canadian Pacific Railway. Further, "it had been noted that approximately forty percent of all passengers arriving in Canada were actually bound for the U.S." by 1895. The U.S. and Canada established a system of joint inspection of immigrants coming overland from Canada after that. St. Albans, Vermont became the headquarters (after Montreal) for District 1 of the Immigration Service. Records documenting passengers arriving on vessels at Canadian ports and on trains crossing the frontier into the U.S. were microfilmed and are at the National Archives. Peak period for this immigration was 1895 to 1915, but there is a Soundex covering 1895-1924 in Series M 1461 and other series dealing with St. Albans are available as well. Regards, Karen B. Whitmer