Thanks Jay. Sorry about my paranoia. :-) This thread has covered a lot of different ground but I'm not sure how to summarise the single common factor underpinning the different viewpoints. Maybe it's just a watershed for considering our perceived differences, and perhaps looking or the bigger picture. Those original cited articles seemed to be concerned with classifying different types of genealogist (e.g. "drive by") and so dividing us, whereas it seems most of here appreciate that it is largely a matter of education and that none of us were born knowing everything that we do now. I'm afraid I've digressed and introduced differences of perspective between genealogists & software people, and international differences, so I'm the guilty party for our thread topic meandering around. As a final contribution to this melting pot, though, can I mention educational differences again? I hinted at this in a previous post but didn't really give any detail to back it up. The people I deal with here are very ordinary folk - people with no university degrees or college diplomas. However, they can be as passionate as any professional, and just as capable of conducting good research. However, understanding the psychology of someone with no qualifications being confronted by organisations whose very names emphasise professionalism and certification is essential if we are to retain an inclusive community. Tony Proctor ----- Original Message ----- From: Jfonkert To: Tony Proctor Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma Tony, First MT post was not intended to be to you, alone. I meant to send it to the whole list, but clicked the wrong button. Second, I was not referring to what you said, but to the content of the overall discussion. I have no problems with anything you have said. Thanks for contributing to the discussion Sent from my iPad On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:52 AM, "Tony Proctor" <tony@proctor.net> wrote: I'm hoping that you've misread my post Jay since the suggestion that the promotion of high-standards was being described as a type of elitism sounds like it was aimed at my reference to APG etc. I have absolutely no issue with high standards - they are essential. In this very thread, I have bemoaned the lack of standards in online trees and suggested this was a problem with education rather than anything beginners should be rebuked for. My reference to those organisations was only to highlight the fact that they may have unwittingly distanced themselves from some beginners by their usage of the words professional or certification. Sure, some beginners will aspire to those goals - and that's great - but I can tell you from first-hand experience that some hobbyists are put off by that air, and may even be rather scared on approaching them. I'm all for an inclusive community and the role of education. Apologies if I've misunderstood the context of your response. Tony Proctor ----- Original Message ----- From: jfonkert@aol.com To: tony@proctor.net ; eshown@comcast.net ; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma I am concerned about some of the feelings expressed in this discussion, but am at a disadvantage in commenting because, for unknown reasons, I have not received some of the emails to which some of you have been referring. I completely understand the strong feelings held on various sides of these issues. Yes, some more experienced genealogists bemoan the fact that the work of some less experienced researchers ("beginners," "hobbyists," "greenies") does not meet the highest standards. But, a far more important (and I think, larger) group of experienced genealogists (both "for pay" practitioners and serious, highly knowledgeable hobbyists) stand ready to help less experienced researchers improve their skills. On the other hand, some aspiring genealogists take offense and call promoters of high standards "elitists." I don't see any need for such an emotional label. We were all beginners at one time. Today's beginners are tomorrow's pros. How does this transition happen? Through genealogical education. Opportunities abound: local genealogical societies, regional and national institutes, journals, websites, blogs, etc. So, you're happy being a hobbyist? Nothing wrong with that. Family history is a great hobby. But, the information you compile about your family will be more valuable for your children and grandchildren if you get the facts right and make some effort to cite your sources. Many non-elitist experienced genealogists stand ready to help you. J. H. Fonkert St. Paul, MN -----Original Message----- From: Tony Proctor <tony@proctor.net> To: eshown <eshown@comcast.net>; 'TGF' <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 24, 2012 4:03 am Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma >> We are all part of that *industry,* even those of us who have been >> "perceived" as "elitists." Perceptions are hard to break, on both sides. >> But, as in politics, so long as we rally behind the "them vs. us" >> mindset, we accomplish little. When we (as Dick went on to do) make the >> effort to understand where others are coming from, this field moves >> forward. Thanks for the comments Elizabeth. I was going to add a note about international perceptions because I feel we've all been guilty, at some point, about assuming the same views, perceptions, and education levels apply everywhere. Although I'm English, I now live in Ireland. I give a workshop in the local town where I get people started with their research. These are people who may have just bought their first computer, or who are too scared to use one. I know that they see the advertisements for ancestry and findmypast (which are now very common on our TV) and they've usually watched Who Do You Think You Are (which makes it all look too easy). These people are unaware of most of the genealogical societies. It almost seems that societies such as BCG, APG, and even the UK's SoG have an air of being only for professionals. I'm not suggesting in any way that this is an intentional form of elitism but we should be wary of being exclusive.As already mentioned in this thread, our field is unusual in involving both professionals and hobbyists. Attempts to police, regulate, or licence that field would be divisive IMO. I know the US has a pervasive notion that Salt Lake is the genealogical capital of the world. You might be interested, if not shocked, to know that I haven't had a single person in my workshop that has heard of FamilySearch, or even realised that the Mormon Church has anything to do with genealogical data. This is a little sad given the enormous contributions they have made, and it highlights the need to be part of an inclusive genealogical community. NB: I mentioned FHISO in my original post. I just want to clarify something for the record - they are not concerned with any type of regulation or policing. Also, they are not some separate group hoping to legislate for everyone else. FHISO *is* the community. The existing organisational members are simply volunteers getting it going before a transition to a self-governing organisation. They would be involved in all topics related to genealogical data standards (i.e. creating them, and participating with other standards bodies) to ensure that we have a "common currency". I also hope they will have an educational role too. Tony Proctor The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message