One small addition to Joyce's excellent reply: Not every record about a person was created by that person. It's important to understand if possible how it was created and who the actual informant was or is likely to be. (In the US, census records would be an example.) It could be that he said one thing and a clerk wrote down another, especially if he was intimidated or illiterate. Harold On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 8:02 AM, J. Mulder <j.mulder@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Rebecca, > > it's actually not a simplistic question at all! Especially considering the > year 1796, which was around a time period of great upheavals here in > Europe. First, let me say that my expertise is in the area/time period of > the Netherlands from the French era (1795-1813) to the present day, but I > have several German ancestors from several different time periods, so I > know a bit about Germany as well. > > You say that you man indentifies himself as both from Germany and Holland, > and born in 1796. Now, I don't know exactly what he said and how he said it > in the records - and I would really need that exact information to be of > more help. Did he identify himself from Germany in one record and from > Holland in another? Did he say Holland or the Netherlands? These details > make a huge difference. > > Let's start with the Netherlands. Holland is actually a part of the > Netherlands, and encompasses North-Holland and South-Holland, two sea-side > provinces. It's also the part of the Netherlands where many people from all > over Europe boarded ships to go to the US, including the Pilgrims on the > Mayflower. In 1796 the entire Netherlands was occupied and ruled by the > French, who'd invaded in 1795. Another thing to keep in mind is that the > Netherlands has always been very attractive to German immigrants - almost > all Dutch people have some German ancestors because there were many times > in history when Germans came to the Netherlands. > > Germany, in that time period, was a bit like a patch-work of little > kingdoms, and duke-doms and other "independent states" so to speak, but > they were all united in what is called in German Heiliges Römisches Reich, > or the Holy Roman Empire > > So one possibility is that your manwas born in Germany and lived in the > Netherlands (or Holland specifically) before going to the US. Another > possibility is that he was born in the Netherlands but that his parents (or > one of them) came from Germany. If I had a last name, I would have a better > idea of that, because there's surprisingly little overlap between German > and Dutch last names. > > Also, > between 1600 and 1900 there were a lot of German seasonal workers, mostly > from > the German province Westfalen, who worked in the Netherlands for part of > the > year and then returned to Germany, only to repeat this pattern the next > year. > They were mostly small time farmers who couldn't make enough in Germany to > support their family, so in the harvest season they came to the > Netherlands and > did all kinds of work here. However, this migration was slowly drying up > at the > end of the 18th century because the economical situation in the > Netherlands at > that time was not so good. It's therefore unlikely that your man, since he > was > born in 1796, was one of these migration workers, but it's entirely > possible > his father/parents were. > > > > Another thing to keep in mind is that in the 17th and 18th century, a > quarter > to half of the people working for the Dutch VOC (which were sailors, > soldiers, > and other workmen) came from outside the Netherlands, and part of them came > from Germany. It's entirely possible that your man's father worked for the > VOC > in the Netherlands but was German by birth. > > > > With both this scenario and the one about the migration workers, it could > be > that your man had a German father and a Dutch mother (or vice versa, but > that's > less likely). Such a dual family might have been why he considered himself > from > both Germany and Holland. Also, he could've been born in the Netherland > but be > considered a German citizen, because in those days the father's nationailty > determined the nationailty of the child, not the birth place as is now the > case. > > > > And then there's the border area between the Netherlands and Germany. In > the > time period your man was born, the Napoleantic wars were being fought to > gain > control of Germany, while the Netherlands were already under French rule. > He > might've been born in this border area, where boundaries would have changed > several times during the 1789-1815 period. He might've been born in one > country, and then grown up in the other country, without ever moving! > > > > But like I said, these are just some of the scenarios I can see from what > little > information you gave. Not a simple question at all, many options to > consider. > Important questions to aks yourself, and details to help narrow down the > possibilities are: > > > > Did he mention both Germany and Holland in the same document, or did he > change > his answer between documents? > > Did he say Holland or the Netherlands? > > Do you know where he was born? > > Do you know anything about his parents? > > What is his last name? > > Do you know when and where he left for the US? > > > > > > I hope this helps! You can always contact me to discuss this more. It's an > interesing question. > > > > Joyce Mulder > > > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 19:59:21 -0500 > > From: Rebecca Koford <rwk.genealogy@gmail.com> > > Subject: [TGF] Overseas Help > > To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > < > CAFN-1M5Q371XZqaXmw-4gS2myv_maN4_4mDqkiuMi0cZ4ps0Ag@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Dear TGF, > > > > I never work overseas, but I am working with research on a man who lived > in > > Baltimore that identified himself as both from Germany and Holland. I > > imagine it sounds simplistic to many of you, and I know that the > countries > > border each other, but can anyone recommend a book or website that > > describes how a person could be from both when born in 1796. I know > about > > the temporary French take-over in about 1811, but I want to make a short > > explanation to the client. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rebecca Whitman Koford > > > > > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Harold Henderson midwestroots.net Research, Writing, and Brickwall Dismantling from Northwest Indiana Regularly Researching at the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists® used by the Board to identify its program of genealogical competency evaluation and used under license by the Board’s associates.