Joyce, your problem is similar to mine. I have tried to follow Elizabeth Shown Mills' 'Evidence Explained' for many years, but the order of the elements of a citation are the opposite of those recommended by the major archives and genealogy societies in Australia. I think the most important principle is to be consistent, rather than to follow a standard from another country, so I use the Australian style, even when citing American resources. Carole Riley -----Original Message----- From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J. Mulder Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2012 6:10 AM To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Subject: [TGF] US vs. European Citation Style I've been paying particular attention to my citations lately, trying to bring them all up to the correct level: making sure that the format is right and all pertinent information is in there. I get most of my information about genealogical methodology from US sources, but I live in the Netherlands and my sources are typical Dutch sources. Also, many archives here in the Netherlands offer citation instructions for their collections - which, by the way, I often find lacking, leading to incomplete citations if followed to the letter. But it has gotten me to notice a difference that seems to be fundamental between US citation style and European (or at least Dutch) citation style: the order of the different elements. For instance, I have a deed of sale from a notarial archive of a village. This archive is a collection found in the Regional Archive Leiden. I cited it in my last blog post (and in my database) in the US style (and hope I got it right): Deed of Sale from Johannes Pieter Schmal for Hendrik Wesselo as father of his minor son Lodewijk Wesselo, 5 August 1898 (filed 6 August 1898). Deeds 1898, inventory number 4, number access 739B, Notarial archives Voorschoten, Regional Archive Leiden, Leiden, Zuid-Holland. However, if I were to do it as the archive suggests/instructs, in European style, the citation would look like this: Regional Archive Leiden, Leiden, Zuid-Holland, Notarial archives Voorschoten, number access 739B, inventory number 4, deeds 1898. Deed of Sale from Johannes Pieter Schmal for Hendrik Wesselo as father of his minor son Lodewijk Wesselo, 5 August 1898 (filed 6 August 1898). At least, the order would look something like that. I will admit that I find that style (going from large to small) far more complicated than the US style of citing, beginning with the specific record and ending with the archive. Anyway, my question is, does it matter which style I use? Should I use the European style because I live in the Netherlands and my research pertains to my Dutch ancestors? Or should I use the European style because it's an European archive/record, and use US style for US based records/archives? Or can I use US style as long as I do it consistently? For the record, this is just my personal research, the only publications of this are on my blog. So no clients or editors that have a say in this or opinion about this. Thanks in advance for any help on this issue. Joyce The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The important thing is that all elements of a citation be included, all that are needed for another researcher to follow your work. I prefer to name the document in the beginning but that's my preference. Others do it differently and that's just fine. I think it's more important to translate any words of a foreign language that are not obvious to the English speaker then put the elements of a citation in a particular order. I pulled out a few examples below from various projects. Death Record of Marie Francoise Rostini; Otta, Administrative District of Ajaccio, Corsica, France; Archives Departementales de Ajaccio; Rue Francois Pietri, 2000 Ajaccio (South Corse); date: 26 May 1880, Registres de l’etat civil d’Ota (Corse), Naissances, publications de marriage, mariages, décès [Births, marriage banns, marriages, deaths], 1880; no record number visible. Baptismal Record of Vincentiu Thomas Sabbastiu [Vincenzo Tomas Sebastiano] Santaniello; Parish of Sant’Andrea Apostolo, Quindici, Italy; Diocesi [Diocese] di Nola, Archivio Storico Diocesano [Diocesan Archives], Via San Felice, 30, 80035 Nola, Napoli Province, archiviostorico@chiesadinola.it; date: 18 September 1769, no record number. Marriage Promise of Michele Santaniello and Rosolina Manzi; Archivio di Stato di Avellino [Provincial Archives of Avellino], Via G. Verdi, 15/17, 83100 Avellino, Italy; Registri dello Stato Civile, “Atti di Solenne Promessa di Celebrare il Matrimonio [Marriage Promise]: 1847” ; date: 18 December 1847 in Quindici, Italy; record number 22. Sincerely, Melanie D. Holtz, CG Holtz Research Services 7283-102 NC Hwy 42 W, #402 Raleigh, NC 27603 Melanie@holtzresearch.com www.holtzresearch.com > From: caroleriley@optusnet.com.au > To: j.mulder@hotmail.com; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:26:12 +1100 > Subject: Re: [TGF] US vs. European Citation Style > > Joyce, your problem is similar to mine. I have tried to follow Elizabeth > Shown Mills' 'Evidence Explained' for many years, but the order of the > elements of a citation are the opposite of those recommended by the major > archives and genealogy societies in Australia. I think the most important > principle is to be consistent, rather than to follow a standard from another > country, so I use the Australian style, even when citing American resources. > > > Carole Riley > > -----Original Message----- > From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > J. Mulder > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2012 6:10 AM > To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Subject: [TGF] US vs. European Citation Style > > > > > I've been > paying particular attention to my citations lately, trying to bring them all > up to the correct level: making sure that the format is right and all > pertinent information is in there. I get most of my information about > genealogical methodology from US sources, but I live in the Netherlands and > my sources are typical Dutch sources. Also, many archives here in the > Netherlands offer citation instructions for their collections - which, by > the way, I often find lacking, leading to incomplete citations if followed > to the letter. But it has gotten me to notice a difference that seems to be > fundamental between US citation style and European (or at least Dutch) > citation style: the order of the different elements. > > > > For > instance, I have a deed of sale from a notarial archive of a village. This > archive is a collection found in the Regional Archive Leiden. I cited it in > my last blog post (and in my database) in the US style (and hope I got it > right): > > > > Deed of > Sale from Johannes Pieter Schmal for Hendrik Wesselo as father of his minor > son Lodewijk Wesselo, 5 August 1898 (filed 6 August 1898). Deeds 1898, > inventory number 4, number access 739B, Notarial archives Voorschoten, > Regional Archive Leiden, Leiden, Zuid-Holland. > > > > However, if > I were to do it as the archive suggests/instructs, in European style, the > citation would look like this: > > > > Regional > Archive Leiden, Leiden, Zuid-Holland, Notarial archives Voorschoten, number > access 739B, inventory number 4, deeds 1898. Deed of Sale from Johannes > Pieter Schmal for Hendrik Wesselo as father of his minor son Lodewijk > Wesselo, 5 August 1898 (filed 6 August 1898). > > > > At least, > the order would look something like that. I will admit that I find that > style (going from large to small) far more complicated than the US style of > citing, beginning with the specific record and ending with the archive. > > > > Anyway, my > question is, does it matter which style I use? Should I use the European > style because I live in the Netherlands and my research pertains to my Dutch > ancestors? Or should I use the European style because it's an European > archive/record, and use US style for US based records/archives? Or can I use > US style as long as I do it consistently? > > > > For the > record, this is just my personal research, the only publications of this are > on my blog. So no clients or editors that have a say in this or opinion > about this. > > > > Thanks in advance for any help on this issue. > > > > Joyce > > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Consistency is something I can do, and since it doesn't really seem to matter which style I use, I'll continue to name the document in the beginning. Melanie does note an interesting aside: "I think it's more important to translate any words of a foreign language that are not obvious to the English speaker then put the elements of a citation in a particular order." I actually translate the entire citation into English, not just some of the words. Almost all of our archives have an English language site, and while their catalogs and indexes are not always in English, you can get pretty far. And the only place where I use my English citations are when I give references for my sources on pieces I've written in English. In my database, I use a Dutch citation (US style) as the main one, and put the English translation in my notes. I feel many citations can be confusing enough on their own - no need to add to that by mixing languages. And many Dutch people speak English, so if you were to speak to an archivist and show them the english citation, they'd probably have no problems finding the document. Also, I tried translating my English citation to Dutch over at Google translate and got a perfectly sound Dutch citation. So thank you all for the input. I've figured out that I don't actually need to change the way I'm working, which is a relief. Cheers, Joyce > From: caroleriley@optusnet.com.au > To: j.mulder@hotmail.com; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [TGF] US vs. European Citation Style > Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 10:26:12 +1100 > > Joyce, your problem is similar to mine. I have tried to follow Elizabeth > Shown Mills' 'Evidence Explained' for many years, but the order of the > elements of a citation are the opposite of those recommended by the major > archives and genealogy societies in Australia. I think the most important > principle is to be consistent, rather than to follow a standard from another > country, so I use the Australian style, even when citing American resources. > > > Carole Riley > > -----Original Message----- > From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > J. Mulder > Sent: Tuesday, 6 November 2012 6:10 AM > To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Subject: [TGF] US vs. European Citation Style > > > > > I've been > paying particular attention to my citations lately, trying to bring them all > up to the correct level: making sure that the format is right and all > pertinent information is in there. I get most of my information about > genealogical methodology from US sources, but I live in the Netherlands and > my sources are typical Dutch sources. Also, many archives here in the > Netherlands offer citation instructions for their collections - which, by > the way, I often find lacking, leading to incomplete citations if followed > to the letter. But it has gotten me to notice a difference that seems to be > fundamental between US citation style and European (or at least Dutch) > citation style: the order of the different elements. > > > > For > instance, I have a deed of sale from a notarial archive of a village. This > archive is a collection found in the Regional Archive Leiden. I cited it in > my last blog post (and in my database) in the US style (and hope I got it > right): > > > > Deed of > Sale from Johannes Pieter Schmal for Hendrik Wesselo as father of his minor > son Lodewijk Wesselo, 5 August 1898 (filed 6 August 1898). Deeds 1898, > inventory number 4, number access 739B, Notarial archives Voorschoten, > Regional Archive Leiden, Leiden, Zuid-Holland. > > > > However, if > I were to do it as the archive suggests/instructs, in European style, the > citation would look like this: > > > > Regional > Archive Leiden, Leiden, Zuid-Holland, Notarial archives Voorschoten, number > access 739B, inventory number 4, deeds 1898. Deed of Sale from Johannes > Pieter Schmal for Hendrik Wesselo as father of his minor son Lodewijk > Wesselo, 5 August 1898 (filed 6 August 1898). > > > > At least, > the order would look something like that. I will admit that I find that > style (going from large to small) far more complicated than the US style of > citing, beginning with the specific record and ending with the archive. > > > > Anyway, my > question is, does it matter which style I use? Should I use the European > style because I live in the Netherlands and my research pertains to my Dutch > ancestors? Or should I use the European style because it's an European > archive/record, and use US style for US based records/archives? Or can I use > US style as long as I do it consistently? > > > > For the > record, this is just my personal research, the only publications of this are > on my blog. So no clients or editors that have a say in this or opinion > about this. > > > > Thanks in advance for any help on this issue. > > > > Joyce > > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I am reading this part of the conversation with interest. I have quite a few German sources and I keep the title in German (and any locations that might be in the title) but I put the type of record in English. I really don't know why I do it this way other than so that the English speakers will at least know what kind of record it is. Michele -----Original Message----- From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J. Mulder Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 10:18 AM To: caroleriley@optusnet.com.au; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [TGF] US vs. European Citation Style Consistency is something I can do, and since it doesn't really seem to matter which style I use, I'll continue to name the document in the beginning. Melanie does note an interesting aside: "I think it's more important to translate any words of a foreign language that are not obvious to the English speaker then put the elements of a citation in a particular order." I actually translate the entire citation into English, not just some of the words. Almost all of our archives have an English language site, and while their catalogs and indexes are not always in English, you can get pretty far. And the only place where I use my English citations are when I give references for my sources on pieces I've written in English. In my database, I use a Dutch citation (US style) as the main one, and put the English translation in my notes. I feel many citations can be confusing enough on their own - no need to add to that by mixing languages. And many Dutch people speak English, so if you were to speak to an archivist and show them the english citation, they'd probably have no problems finding the document. Also, I tried translating my English citation to Dutch over at Google translate and got a perfectly sound Dutch citation. So thank you all for the input. I've figured out that I don't actually need to change the way I'm working, which is a relief. Cheers, Joyce