I think Patti has made some good points, but we need to understand that the questions she raised were based partly on the issue of trust. If I hire Susan Glenn in Salt Lake to pull the filmed index in the front of volume 1 of the deed registers in McNairy County, Tennessee, I know that she will also be sending me a picture of the target and the cover and spine of the book if it was filmed. This is her job. It is not her job to search that index for deeds pertaining to my case. This was a favor that someone did for you. It does not sound like you distrust or have reason to distrust any information about the document or where it came from. However, Patti raises good points. I would pay to have the clipping copied along with the target and a picture of the entire page to verify the authenticity. And I have done just that. Then, you eliminate all those pesky if, ands, and buts that Patti raises because if they cannot send you a picture of the entire page and the front page, you will politely be asking why. So getting back to your original question before this small debate began. Just cite the repository holding the microfilm that the images came from like Michael said. You're doing the famous "over-thinking it" thing I'm famous for. : ) Rondina _______________________ Rondina P. Muncy Ancestral Analysis 4008 Linden Avenue Fort Worth, Texas 76107 682.224.6584 [email protected] www.ancestralanalysis.com On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Patricia Hobbs via < [email protected]> wrote: > I think it might depend on how you perceived the person who obtained the > obituary. I agree that if you are having a "reliable" researcher or a > person who works for the facility from which the item is obtained that we > can treat it as something that is as reliable as the original. I did not > see that scenario in this case. Not only do we know nothing about the > reliability of the other researcher from whom Kathy obtained the obituary, > we don't know how she got it from the historical/genealogical society. Did > she access a filing card system that has them clipped out and arranged > alphabetically? Was the title of the newspaper handwritten on the card? Or > did she use the newspapers on microfilm at the genealogical society? > > So I saw the obituary more akin to something that you would have gotten in > a family collection of items of which all the details of how the obituary > was obtained is not known. > > Tom says that sometimes the second part of the citation is a courtesy ... > like a newspaper on microfilm. You can just put the essential information > at the beginning and leave off the specifics of the the microfilm. But > again, I don't see this newspaper obituary obtained by an unknown > researcher in an unknown manner under unknown circumstances to fit into the > same kind of category. > > And it certainly doesn't hurt to add the information giving the provenance. > > Patti > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Jill Morelli <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I agree with Michael. > > > > At the PMC 2015 class on citations taught by Tom Jones (a terrific class > > by the way) the approach taken was exactly as Michael has outlined. > > > > You cite the source of the information (the newspaper clipping) and since > > it is publically available you have no obligation to cite the email. In > > fact it would be confusing to do so. > > > > You may have to do a little work to get the column and page number, > > however, depending on whether your email sender gave you a partial or > full > > citation information. > > > > Jill > > > > > > > > > > Professional genealogist > > Give the gift of family! > > > > > On Mar 5, 2015, at 2:44 PM, Michael Hait via < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > That’s really not standard operating procedure, though. Agents are > > almost never cited as a source in research reports or journal articles > when > > dealing with published or public sources, if a digital image has been > > obtained. > > > > > > Michael Hait, CG(sm) > > > [email protected] > > > http://www.haitfamilyresearch.com > > > Author of *Online State Resources for Genealogy* ebook > > > More information at http://haitfamilyresearch.com/onlineStates.htm > > > > > > CG and Certified Genealogist are service marks of the Board for > > Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants > > after periodic competency evaluation, and the board name is registered in > > the US Patent & Trademark Office. > > > > > > > > > From: Patricia Hobbs > > > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 5:32 PM > > > To: Michael Hait > > > Cc: Kathie Fortner ; TGF List > > > Subject: Re: [TGF] Citation > > > > > > I think you'd cite the email and the repository because you are > > dependent on the person who sent the itme to be accurately identifying it > > (say the title or date of the newspaper is not in the copy, for example), > > but the person who sent it knows from obtaining it. Since you didn't get > it > > yourself, you are letting the reader know that because the information > was > > obtained from someone else, there may be errors that have crept in. > > > > > > Patti > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Michael Hait < > [email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > Why is the email relevant at all to the citation of the newspaper? If > > the sender was functioning as an agent to obtain a publicly available > > record from the society library's microfilm collection, for example, then > > you would cite the repository information, but not the agent who obtained > > it. > > > > > > Michael Hait, CG(sm) > > > [email protected] > > > http://www.haitfamilyresearch.com > > > Author of *Online State Resources for Genealogy* ebook > > > More information at http://haitfamilyresearch.com/onlineStates.htm > > > > > > CG and Certified Genealogist are service marks of the Board for > > Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants > > after periodic competency evaluation, and the board name is registered in > > the US Patent & Trademark Office. > > > -----Original Message----- From: Patricia Hobbs via > > > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 12:58 PM > > > To: Kathie Fortner > > > Cc: TGF List > > > Subject: Re: [TGF] Citation > > > > > > > > > Kathie, I'm not sure how you contacted the person (via Ancestry > message > > > board) is material if you corresponded directly through email to get > the > > > document(s). > > > > > > I'd refer to the attachment directly as you normally would for that > > kind of > > > document (newspaper if it's an obituary with identifying information). > > Then > > > after the semi-colon, you'd refer to the avenue of receipt as being > > sent by > > > email from the sender which would then cite the origin of the obituary > > as > > > being the Elgin County Genealogical Society. > > > > > > Patti > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Kathie Fortner via < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to cite an email with attachments. The attachments are > > > identified by the sender. Am I on the right track with this? > > > > > > ​[Name of Sender], Via Ancestry Message Boards {senders email} To > > Kathie > > > Fortner, Email with attachments, 14 Aug 2014, "Hannah Bellowes > Fortner > > > Obituary"; Attachments from "The St Thomas Evening Journal " 29 Aug > > 1908, 1 > > > Sep 1908, Elgin County Gealogical Society, -- > > > > > > * > > > Kathie Fortner* > > > * <[email protected]>* > > > > > > *www.fortner.50megs.com <http://www.fortner.50megs.com>* > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > [email protected] with the word > > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message