Dear Rebecca, it's actually not a simplistic question at all! Especially considering the year 1796, which was around a time period of great upheavals here in Europe. First, let me say that my expertise is in the area/time period of the Netherlands from the French era (1795-1813) to the present day, but I have several German ancestors from several different time periods, so I know a bit about Germany as well. You say that you man indentifies himself as both from Germany and Holland, and born in 1796. Now, I don't know exactly what he said and how he said it in the records - and I would really need that exact information to be of more help. Did he identify himself from Germany in one record and from Holland in another? Did he say Holland or the Netherlands? These details make a huge difference. Let's start with the Netherlands. Holland is actually a part of the Netherlands, and encompasses North-Holland and South-Holland, two sea-side provinces. It's also the part of the Netherlands where many people from all over Europe boarded ships to go to the US, including the Pilgrims on the Mayflower. In 1796 the entire Netherlands was occupied and ruled by the French, who'd invaded in 1795. Another thing to keep in mind is that the Netherlands has always been very attractive to German immigrants - almost all Dutch people have some German ancestors because there were many times in history when Germans came to the Netherlands. Germany, in that time period, was a bit like a patch-work of little kingdoms, and duke-doms and other "independent states" so to speak, but they were all united in what is called in German Heiliges Römisches Reich, or the Holy Roman Empire So one possibility is that your manwas born in Germany and lived in the Netherlands (or Holland specifically) before going to the US. Another possibility is that he was born in the Netherlands but that his parents (or one of them) came from Germany. If I had a last name, I would have a better idea of that, because there's surprisingly little overlap between German and Dutch last names. Also, between 1600 and 1900 there were a lot of German seasonal workers, mostly from the German province Westfalen, who worked in the Netherlands for part of the year and then returned to Germany, only to repeat this pattern the next year. They were mostly small time farmers who couldn't make enough in Germany to support their family, so in the harvest season they came to the Netherlands and did all kinds of work here. However, this migration was slowly drying up at the end of the 18th century because the economical situation in the Netherlands at that time was not so good. It's therefore unlikely that your man, since he was born in 1796, was one of these migration workers, but it's entirely possible his father/parents were. Another thing to keep in mind is that in the 17th and 18th century, a quarter to half of the people working for the Dutch VOC (which were sailors, soldiers, and other workmen) came from outside the Netherlands, and part of them came from Germany. It's entirely possible that your man's father worked for the VOC in the Netherlands but was German by birth. With both this scenario and the one about the migration workers, it could be that your man had a German father and a Dutch mother (or vice versa, but that's less likely). Such a dual family might have been why he considered himself from both Germany and Holland. Also, he could've been born in the Netherland but be considered a German citizen, because in those days the father's nationailty determined the nationailty of the child, not the birth place as is now the case. And then there's the border area between the Netherlands and Germany. In the time period your man was born, the Napoleantic wars were being fought to gain control of Germany, while the Netherlands were already under French rule. He might've been born in this border area, where boundaries would have changed several times during the 1789-1815 period. He might've been born in one country, and then grown up in the other country, without ever moving! But like I said, these are just some of the scenarios I can see from what little information you gave. Not a simple question at all, many options to consider. Important questions to aks yourself, and details to help narrow down the possibilities are: Did he mention both Germany and Holland in the same document, or did he change his answer between documents? Did he say Holland or the Netherlands? Do you know where he was born? Do you know anything about his parents? What is his last name? Do you know when and where he left for the US? I hope this helps! You can always contact me to discuss this more. It's an interesing question. Joyce Mulder > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 19:59:21 -0500 > From: Rebecca Koford <rwk.genealogy@gmail.com> > Subject: [TGF] Overseas Help > To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CAFN-1M5Q371XZqaXmw-4gS2myv_maN4_4mDqkiuMi0cZ4ps0Ag@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear TGF, > > I never work overseas, but I am working with research on a man who lived in > Baltimore that identified himself as both from Germany and Holland. I > imagine it sounds simplistic to many of you, and I know that the countries > border each other, but can anyone recommend a book or website that > describes how a person could be from both when born in 1796. I know about > the temporary French take-over in about 1811, but I want to make a short > explanation to the client. > > Thanks, > > Rebecca Whitman Koford >

Yes, I would concur with that Eileen. Sorry Kathie, I missed the link to your Web page the first time around. Tony Proctor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eileen Souza" <eileen.souza@gmail.com> To: <kfortner@sympatico.ca>; <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [TGF] help with a record >I think the P is Priest and the parish may be Nenagh, which is in North > Tipperary. > > Eileen > _______________________________ > Eileen A Souza > Eldersburg, MD > Old Bones Genealogy LLC > info@oldbonesgenealogy.com > www.oldbonesgenealogy.com > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf >> Of >> Kathie Fortner >> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:40 AM >> To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [TGF] help with a record >> >> I have put on my website part of a marriage record. Along the right is > the name >> Mary Murphy and the line across from the space between Mary and Murphy is > this >> line I need help with. The copy of the record I have is as bad as the > image. >> [1865] >> >> >> >> Ryan, P----- of -------- Co. Tipperary >> >> I am wondering if anyone can figure out the name of the parish in Co. >> Tipperary. >> >> The P------ is either priest or parish. >> >> >> >> http://www.fortner.50megs.com/Murphy.html >> >> >> >> Kathie Fortner >> >> kfortner@sympatico.ca >> >> fortner.50megs.com >> >> www.fortner.ws >> >> >> >> The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive >> environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition >> to >> professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL- >> GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message

Kathie I'm confused. This record is a marriage record from Quebec, Canada? At first I thought it was from County Tipperary, Ireland. Apparently the reference reads something like "Mary Murphy daughter of Michael Murphy and ____ Ryan" [of] some place in County Tipperary, Ireland? If so, I'd suggest the "[P....]" is indeed the name of some parish, there would be no reason to identify the priest in this type of document. I just checked the Drouin Collection (at Ancestry.com) to see if they have this record, but came up empty. Curious to know more about the yourfolks.com website you mention. I couldn't find anywhere that they list their sources. Pat Dunford -----Original Message----- From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Kathie Fortner Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:40 AM To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Subject: [TGF] help with a record I have put on my website part of a marriage record. Along the right is the name Mary Murphy and the line across from the space between Mary and Murphy is this line I need help with. The copy of the record I have is as bad as the image. [1865] Ryan, P----- of -------- Co. Tipperary I am wondering if anyone can figure out the name of the parish in Co. Tipperary. The P------ is either priest or parish. http://www.fortner.50megs.com/Murphy.html Kathie Fortner kfortner@sympatico.ca fortner.50megs.com www.fortner.ws The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Jay. Sorry about my paranoia. :-) This thread has covered a lot of different ground but I'm not sure how to summarise the single common factor underpinning the different viewpoints. Maybe it's just a watershed for considering our perceived differences, and perhaps looking or the bigger picture. Those original cited articles seemed to be concerned with classifying different types of genealogist (e.g. "drive by") and so dividing us, whereas it seems most of here appreciate that it is largely a matter of education and that none of us were born knowing everything that we do now. I'm afraid I've digressed and introduced differences of perspective between genealogists & software people, and international differences, so I'm the guilty party for our thread topic meandering around. As a final contribution to this melting pot, though, can I mention educational differences again? I hinted at this in a previous post but didn't really give any detail to back it up. The people I deal with here are very ordinary folk - people with no university degrees or college diplomas. However, they can be as passionate as any professional, and just as capable of conducting good research. However, understanding the psychology of someone with no qualifications being confronted by organisations whose very names emphasise professionalism and certification is essential if we are to retain an inclusive community. Tony Proctor ----- Original Message ----- From: Jfonkert To: Tony Proctor Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma Tony, First MT post was not intended to be to you, alone. I meant to send it to the whole list, but clicked the wrong button. Second, I was not referring to what you said, but to the content of the overall discussion. I have no problems with anything you have said. Thanks for contributing to the discussion Sent from my iPad On Nov 24, 2012, at 9:52 AM, "Tony Proctor" <tony@proctor.net> wrote: I'm hoping that you've misread my post Jay since the suggestion that the promotion of high-standards was being described as a type of elitism sounds like it was aimed at my reference to APG etc. I have absolutely no issue with high standards - they are essential. In this very thread, I have bemoaned the lack of standards in online trees and suggested this was a problem with education rather than anything beginners should be rebuked for. My reference to those organisations was only to highlight the fact that they may have unwittingly distanced themselves from some beginners by their usage of the words professional or certification. Sure, some beginners will aspire to those goals - and that's great - but I can tell you from first-hand experience that some hobbyists are put off by that air, and may even be rather scared on approaching them. I'm all for an inclusive community and the role of education. Apologies if I've misunderstood the context of your response. Tony Proctor ----- Original Message ----- From: jfonkert@aol.com To: tony@proctor.net ; eshown@comcast.net ; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma I am concerned about some of the feelings expressed in this discussion, but am at a disadvantage in commenting because, for unknown reasons, I have not received some of the emails to which some of you have been referring. I completely understand the strong feelings held on various sides of these issues. Yes, some more experienced genealogists bemoan the fact that the work of some less experienced researchers ("beginners," "hobbyists," "greenies") does not meet the highest standards. But, a far more important (and I think, larger) group of experienced genealogists (both "for pay" practitioners and serious, highly knowledgeable hobbyists) stand ready to help less experienced researchers improve their skills. On the other hand, some aspiring genealogists take offense and call promoters of high standards "elitists." I don't see any need for such an emotional label. We were all beginners at one time. Today's beginners are tomorrow's pros. How does this transition happen? Through genealogical education. Opportunities abound: local genealogical societies, regional and national institutes, journals, websites, blogs, etc. So, you're happy being a hobbyist? Nothing wrong with that. Family history is a great hobby. But, the information you compile about your family will be more valuable for your children and grandchildren if you get the facts right and make some effort to cite your sources. Many non-elitist experienced genealogists stand ready to help you. J. H. Fonkert St. Paul, MN -----Original Message----- From: Tony Proctor <tony@proctor.net> To: eshown <eshown@comcast.net>; 'TGF' <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 24, 2012 4:03 am Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma >> We are all part of that *industry,* even those of us who have been >> "perceived" as "elitists." Perceptions are hard to break, on both sides. >> But, as in politics, so long as we rally behind the "them vs. us" >> mindset, we accomplish little. When we (as Dick went on to do) make the >> effort to understand where others are coming from, this field moves >> forward. Thanks for the comments Elizabeth. I was going to add a note about international perceptions because I feel we've all been guilty, at some point, about assuming the same views, perceptions, and education levels apply everywhere. Although I'm English, I now live in Ireland. I give a workshop in the local town where I get people started with their research. These are people who may have just bought their first computer, or who are too scared to use one. I know that they see the advertisements for ancestry and findmypast (which are now very common on our TV) and they've usually watched Who Do You Think You Are (which makes it all look too easy). These people are unaware of most of the genealogical societies. It almost seems that societies such as BCG, APG, and even the UK's SoG have an air of being only for professionals. I'm not suggesting in any way that this is an intentional form of elitism but we should be wary of being exclusive.As already mentioned in this thread, our field is unusual in involving both professionals and hobbyists. Attempts to police, regulate, or licence that field would be divisive IMO. I know the US has a pervasive notion that Salt Lake is the genealogical capital of the world. You might be interested, if not shocked, to know that I haven't had a single person in my workshop that has heard of FamilySearch, or even realised that the Mormon Church has anything to do with genealogical data. This is a little sad given the enormous contributions they have made, and it highlights the need to be part of an inclusive genealogical community. NB: I mentioned FHISO in my original post. I just want to clarify something for the record - they are not concerned with any type of regulation or policing. Also, they are not some separate group hoping to legislate for everyone else. FHISO *is* the community. The existing organisational members are simply volunteers getting it going before a transition to a self-governing organisation. They would be involved in all topics related to genealogical data standards (i.e. creating them, and participating with other standards bodies) to ensure that we have a "common currency". I also hope they will have an educational role too. Tony Proctor The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> The P------ is either priest or parish. I agree with Eileen that it says Parish of Nenagh -- Pat Connors, Sacramento, CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

Everyone was ______(insert appropriate term here)__________ in the beginning. For fifteen years I was alone in the wilderness and I did not understand source, much less evidence, but I had a lot of facts. But my house was built of cards on a foundation of sand. And then I learned that there were rules, but they were funny rules. They were rules you could chose to adhere to, or not. At first I stumbled among the petunias, but I found faith in myself and my ability. Misplaced as it might have been at the time. And then I gained courage, and I presented myself to the special people. And I found that my fear of them was misplaced. That they welcomed me, even with my arrogance and my bravado. And they helped me. And it was good. And I learned that genealogy is like the world, everything, almost, is a normal curve. That there are angels on one end and donkeys on the other, but that generally in the middle are people that help me and I help them, as I can. I avoid donkeys. They tend to be stubborn, kick a lot, and believe they are the angels. But you know the angels. The angels have a funny thought. They think we all should be angels. The donkeys, they are afraid of you. You are competition. The angels love competition, because it makes us all better. So when you think someone is being a donkey you have to examine the situation. Because what you think might be a donkey, really might be an angel helping you to become an angel. None of us is perfect, not even the angels. If you think you are perfect in your genealogy you might be a donkey in the making. You have to look at your palace and see if it really is a house of cards. Genealogy is a wide field of endeavor with millions of people with opinions about things. Among them are people with badges. The badges are unimportant to you. A badge does not grant anyone special powers. A badge does not make a donkey anything other than a donkey with a badge. Angels don't need badges, but they like to test themselves and keeping a badge is a good way to do that. But it does not make them a better angel. They are just an angel with a badge. And by definition, an angel does not know they are an angel. If they think they are an angel, by definition they are not. So my advice is that if you pay attention to the first two chapters, live by the words source, evidence and fact, and recognize the relationship that exists between them you will be fine. And the next time you are at a conference and you see a group of people that you think are people that understand the first two chapters really well, sit down and talk with them. And if they aren't having a meeting, you will be welcome. That meeting part is always a problem. But you will figure it out. This is by far the easiest group in the world to join. It let me be a member in 1985 and it helped to make me a better genealogist. So evaluate the criticisms. If they are donkey, chalk it up to mean spirit and move on. Dwelling on it just foolish, donkeys are every where. But if you can see their point then learn from it and move on a better genealogist. And that is what really counts, becoming a better genealogist. C. On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Kim Ostermyer <kim_ostermyer@yahoo.com>wrote: > Harold, > I should say that I didn't necessarily felt left out of the community but > a couple of people certainly made me feel like being a newbie was a > terrible thing. I was a but put off by not feeling welcome, especially when > the people in question didn't know my background. > > I do cringe when I consider the few missteps along the way. To correct a > few things, I have put my Ancestry trees in private mode but will share the > information with full disclosure about the source material, and whether I > have confidence in the material as a whole. > > I have reached the point where I have moved beyond the basic "dates, names > and places" to include "context, background and community", which seems a > more satisfying pursuit. > > > I realize that the article was in fact relatively neutral in tone. The > discussion surely indicates some vulnerabilities and insecurities within > the field. I also realize fully that we are trying to be academic while > helping out the curiosity seekers. > > ~Kim > > > >________________________________ > > From: Harold Henderson <librarytraveler@gmail.com> > >To: Kim Ostermyer <kim_ostermyer@yahoo.com> > >Cc: Transitional Genealogists forum < > transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:20 AM > >Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma, newcomers > > > > > >Kim -- > > > >Thanks. Your path sounds a lot like mine. (It really was fun being a name > collector!) But I never had much of a feeling of being put out of any club > that I wanted to be a member of. If and when I received criticism I tried > to make use of it . . . when I understood it at all. These days, the > judgments I see made are not exclusionist -- they're made not because > people are not certified or accredited, but because they just aren't doing > good work. > > > >The article that started all this discussion named no names, but did name > some basic standards, and left it up to the readers to decide where they > fit in. Nothing elitist about that in my book. (Plus, anyone who is > certified or accredited knows good and well that it does not in itself > prevent them from making mistakes or having bad judgment.) More at > http://midwesternmicrohistory.blogspot.com/2012/11/misteaks.html. > > > >Harold > > > > > > > > > >On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Kim Ostermyer <kim_ostermyer@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > >I have a confession to make-- > >> > >>I used to be one of those genealogists mentioned. I was a genealogy > greenhorn at one point and it was a lot of fun. I had adrenaline rushes > when I was doing my drive-by genealogy. I enjoyed the casual aspect of the > hunt. I've matured a lot in my ten years of researching--what I am capable > now is a wholly different level than what I did even five years ago. I've > become more technical and more deliberate in my research, and certainly > more analytical. > >> > >>I don't have credentials but I am fully aware that I am not a hobbyist, > amateur or hack. In the view of some, no credentials would seem that my > abilities are mediocre at best, which is a slippery slope to be on. Drawing > a line in the proverbial sand and casting out potential clients, colleagues > and fellow seekers because of their inexperience is unkind and > counter-intuitive to say the least. I think it's important to have > standards to aim for, but not to such a degree as to dissuade the curious. > >> > >> > >>I have always had a concern over the undertow of the elitism that I was > exposed to early on. For someone new to the field, it certainly would seem > a bit daunting and disconcerting. While I understand the desire to have a > field full of academic types with credentials and licensing, I feel it is > unrealistic to expect this of lay genealogists. I wonder if the advocates > for these standards quantify their everyday conversations with sources. I > don't mean to imply citing sources while chit-chatting, but having a > realistic expectation that a conversation is based on what could be > considered facts and not the further repeating of the opinions of someone > else. > >> > >> > >>I'm not on the restricting lay genealogists from joining the party, nor > will I join up. Even as I am aiming for certification myself, I know that > such a level of scholarship is atypical. If we assume that Malcolm > Gladwell's theory that it takes 10,000 hours to master something, then most > lay genealogists will never reach that point. This is what Bill Gates has > to say on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsGihiSE6sM. I know > that I am beyond the drive-by genealogy because when I tell people what I > am researching, I have to break it down into simpler terms. > >> > >> > >>Just a few thoughts. > >> > >>Cheers, > >>Kim Ostermyer, futurecertified genealogist > >>The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > >>------------------------------- > >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > >-- > >Harold Henderson midwestroots.net > >Research, Writing, and Brickwall Dismantling from Northwest Indiana > >Regularly Researching at the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center > > > >Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 > >Certified Genealogist and > CG are proprietary service marks > >of the Board for Certification of > Genealogists® used by the > >Board to identify its program of > genealogical competencyevaluation > >and used under license by the > Board’s associates. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Craig R. Scott, CG President & CEO Heritage Books, Inc. 229 Danagher Ct. Holly Springs, NC 27540 800 876-6103 919 363-6218 Fax 410 558-6574 crscott@HeritageBooks.com Visit www.HeritageBooks.com Blogs: As Craig Sees It Stump Craig http://www.facebook.com/pages/HeritageBookscom/40913510672 CG (Certified Genealogist) is a service mark of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants after periodic evaluation, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark Office.

I think the P is Priest and the parish may be Nenagh, which is in North Tipperary. Eileen _______________________________ Eileen A Souza Eldersburg, MD Old Bones Genealogy LLC info@oldbonesgenealogy.com www.oldbonesgenealogy.com > -----Original Message----- > From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Kathie Fortner > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:40 AM > To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Subject: [TGF] help with a record > > I have put on my website part of a marriage record. Along the right is the name > Mary Murphy and the line across from the space between Mary and Murphy is this > line I need help with. The copy of the record I have is as bad as the image. > [1865] > > > > Ryan, P----- of -------- Co. Tipperary > > I am wondering if anyone can figure out the name of the parish in Co. > Tipperary. > > The P------ is either priest or parish. > > > > http://www.fortner.50megs.com/Murphy.html > > > > Kathie Fortner > > kfortner@sympatico.ca > > fortner.50megs.com > > www.fortner.ws > > > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL- > GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

One small addition to Joyce's excellent reply: Not every record about a person was created by that person. It's important to understand if possible how it was created and who the actual informant was or is likely to be. (In the US, census records would be an example.) It could be that he said one thing and a clerk wrote down another, especially if he was intimidated or illiterate. Harold On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 8:02 AM, J. Mulder <j.mulder@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear Rebecca, > > it's actually not a simplistic question at all! Especially considering the > year 1796, which was around a time period of great upheavals here in > Europe. First, let me say that my expertise is in the area/time period of > the Netherlands from the French era (1795-1813) to the present day, but I > have several German ancestors from several different time periods, so I > know a bit about Germany as well. > > You say that you man indentifies himself as both from Germany and Holland, > and born in 1796. Now, I don't know exactly what he said and how he said it > in the records - and I would really need that exact information to be of > more help. Did he identify himself from Germany in one record and from > Holland in another? Did he say Holland or the Netherlands? These details > make a huge difference. > > Let's start with the Netherlands. Holland is actually a part of the > Netherlands, and encompasses North-Holland and South-Holland, two sea-side > provinces. It's also the part of the Netherlands where many people from all > over Europe boarded ships to go to the US, including the Pilgrims on the > Mayflower. In 1796 the entire Netherlands was occupied and ruled by the > French, who'd invaded in 1795. Another thing to keep in mind is that the > Netherlands has always been very attractive to German immigrants - almost > all Dutch people have some German ancestors because there were many times > in history when Germans came to the Netherlands. > > Germany, in that time period, was a bit like a patch-work of little > kingdoms, and duke-doms and other "independent states" so to speak, but > they were all united in what is called in German Heiliges Römisches Reich, > or the Holy Roman Empire > > So one possibility is that your manwas born in Germany and lived in the > Netherlands (or Holland specifically) before going to the US. Another > possibility is that he was born in the Netherlands but that his parents (or > one of them) came from Germany. If I had a last name, I would have a better > idea of that, because there's surprisingly little overlap between German > and Dutch last names. > > Also, > between 1600 and 1900 there were a lot of German seasonal workers, mostly > from > the German province Westfalen, who worked in the Netherlands for part of > the > year and then returned to Germany, only to repeat this pattern the next > year. > They were mostly small time farmers who couldn't make enough in Germany to > support their family, so in the harvest season they came to the > Netherlands and > did all kinds of work here. However, this migration was slowly drying up > at the > end of the 18th century because the economical situation in the > Netherlands at > that time was not so good. It's therefore unlikely that your man, since he > was > born in 1796, was one of these migration workers, but it's entirely > possible > his father/parents were. > > > > Another thing to keep in mind is that in the 17th and 18th century, a > quarter > to half of the people working for the Dutch VOC (which were sailors, > soldiers, > and other workmen) came from outside the Netherlands, and part of them came > from Germany. It's entirely possible that your man's father worked for the > VOC > in the Netherlands but was German by birth. > > > > With both this scenario and the one about the migration workers, it could > be > that your man had a German father and a Dutch mother (or vice versa, but > that's > less likely). Such a dual family might have been why he considered himself > from > both Germany and Holland. Also, he could've been born in the Netherland > but be > considered a German citizen, because in those days the father's nationailty > determined the nationailty of the child, not the birth place as is now the > case. > > > > And then there's the border area between the Netherlands and Germany. In > the > time period your man was born, the Napoleantic wars were being fought to > gain > control of Germany, while the Netherlands were already under French rule. > He > might've been born in this border area, where boundaries would have changed > several times during the 1789-1815 period. He might've been born in one > country, and then grown up in the other country, without ever moving! > > > > But like I said, these are just some of the scenarios I can see from what > little > information you gave. Not a simple question at all, many options to > consider. > Important questions to aks yourself, and details to help narrow down the > possibilities are: > > > > Did he mention both Germany and Holland in the same document, or did he > change > his answer between documents? > > Did he say Holland or the Netherlands? > > Do you know where he was born? > > Do you know anything about his parents? > > What is his last name? > > Do you know when and where he left for the US? > > > > > > I hope this helps! You can always contact me to discuss this more. It's an > interesing question. > > > > Joyce Mulder > > > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 19:59:21 -0500 > > From: Rebecca Koford <rwk.genealogy@gmail.com> > > Subject: [TGF] Overseas Help > > To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > < > CAFN-1M5Q371XZqaXmw-4gS2myv_maN4_4mDqkiuMi0cZ4ps0Ag@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Dear TGF, > > > > I never work overseas, but I am working with research on a man who lived > in > > Baltimore that identified himself as both from Germany and Holland. I > > imagine it sounds simplistic to many of you, and I know that the > countries > > border each other, but can anyone recommend a book or website that > > describes how a person could be from both when born in 1796. I know > about > > the temporary French take-over in about 1811, but I want to make a short > > explanation to the client. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Rebecca Whitman Koford > > > > > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Harold Henderson midwestroots.net Research, Writing, and Brickwall Dismantling from Northwest Indiana Regularly Researching at the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists® used by the Board to identify its program of genealogical competency evaluation and used under license by the Board’s associates.

I have put on my website part of a marriage record. Along the right is the name Mary Murphy and the line across from the space between Mary and Murphy is this line I need help with. The copy of the record I have is as bad as the image. [1865] Ryan, P----- of -------- Co. Tipperary I am wondering if anyone can figure out the name of the parish in Co. Tipperary. The P------ is either priest or parish. http://www.fortner.50megs.com/Murphy.html Kathie Fortner kfortner@sympatico.ca fortner.50megs.com www.fortner.ws

Dear TGF, I never work overseas, but I am working with research on a man who lived in Baltimore that identified himself as both from Germany and Holland. I imagine it sounds simplistic to many of you, and I know that the countries border each other, but can anyone recommend a book or website that describes how a person could be from both when born in 1796. I know about the temporary French take-over in about 1811, but I want to make a short explanation to the client. Thanks, Rebecca Whitman Koford

I recently made a trip to NARA in DC. I have been telling of my experience on my blog. I am not advertising my blog - I am just mentioning it so that maybe you can get some suggestions on what to expect when you go. My blog is at: http://maggiegen.wordpress.com. I hope it helps! Maggie > > ________________________________ > From: "transitional-genealogists-forum-request@rootsweb.com" < > transitional-genealogists-forum-request@rootsweb.com> > To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Hi all, > I am thrilled to be pursuing a line for my first paying client! I have > found digital copies of a pension file index and General Index for Isaac O. > Lowe of C Company 31 Indiana Infantry, but fold3, familysearch, and > ancestry > do not have copies of the actual service file or actual pension. > > 3 - what the heck do I do when I get to NARA? My inclination is to go to > the > first desk I see and beg for mercy. > > > >

I'm hoping that you've misread my post Jay since the suggestion that the promotion of high-standards was being described as a type of elitism sounds like it was aimed at my reference to APG etc. I have absolutely no issue with high standards - they are essential. In this very thread, I have bemoaned the lack of standards in online trees and suggested this was a problem with education rather than anything beginners should be rebuked for. My reference to those organisations was only to highlight the fact that they may have unwittingly distanced themselves from some beginners by their usage of the words professional or certification. Sure, some beginners will aspire to those goals - and that's great - but I can tell you from first-hand experience that some hobbyists are put off by that air, and may even be rather scared on approaching them. I'm all for an inclusive community and the role of education. Apologies if I've misunderstood the context of your response. Tony Proctor ----- Original Message ----- From: jfonkert@aol.com To: tony@proctor.net ; eshown@comcast.net ; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma I am concerned about some of the feelings expressed in this discussion, but am at a disadvantage in commenting because, for unknown reasons, I have not received some of the emails to which some of you have been referring. I completely understand the strong feelings held on various sides of these issues. Yes, some more experienced genealogists bemoan the fact that the work of some less experienced researchers ("beginners," "hobbyists," "greenies") does not meet the highest standards. But, a far more important (and I think, larger) group of experienced genealogists (both "for pay" practitioners and serious, highly knowledgeable hobbyists) stand ready to help less experienced researchers improve their skills. On the other hand, some aspiring genealogists take offense and call promoters of high standards "elitists." I don't see any need for such an emotional label. We were all beginners at one time. Today's beginners are tomorrow's pros. How does this transition happen? Through genealogical education. Opportunities abound: local genealogical societies, regional and national institutes, journals, websites, blogs, etc. So, you're happy being a hobbyist? Nothing wrong with that. Family history is a great hobby. But, the information you compile about your family will be more valuable for your children and grandchildren if you get the facts right and make some effort to cite your sources. Many non-elitist experienced genealogists stand ready to help you. J. H. Fonkert St. Paul, MN -----Original Message----- From: Tony Proctor <tony@proctor.net> To: eshown <eshown@comcast.net>; 'TGF' <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 24, 2012 4:03 am Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma >> We are all part of that *industry,* even those of us who have been >> "perceived" as "elitists." Perceptions are hard to break, on both sides. >> But, as in politics, so long as we rally behind the "them vs. us" >> mindset, we accomplish little. When we (as Dick went on to do) make the >> effort to understand where others are coming from, this field moves >> forward. Thanks for the comments Elizabeth. I was going to add a note about international perceptions because I feel we've all been guilty, at some point, about assuming the same views, perceptions, and education levels apply everywhere. Although I'm English, I now live in Ireland. I give a workshop in the local town where I get people started with their research. These are people who may have just bought their first computer, or who are too scared to use one. I know that they see the advertisements for ancestry and findmypast (which are now very common on our TV) and they've usually watched Who Do You Think You Are (which makes it all look too easy). These people are unaware of most of the genealogical societies. It almost seems that societies such as BCG, APG, and even the UK's SoG have an air of being only for professionals. I'm not suggesting in any way that this is an intentional form of elitism but we should be wary of being exclusive.As already mentioned in this thread, our field is unusual in involving both professionals and hobbyists. Attempts to police, regulate, or licence that field would be divisive IMO. I know the US has a pervasive notion that Salt Lake is the genealogical capital of the world. You might be interested, if not shocked, to know that I haven't had a single person in my workshop that has heard of FamilySearch, or even realised that the Mormon Church has anything to do with genealogical data. This is a little sad given the enormous contributions they have made, and it highlights the need to be part of an inclusive genealogical community. NB: I mentioned FHISO in my original post. I just want to clarify something for the record - they are not concerned with any type of regulation or policing. Also, they are not some separate group hoping to legislate for everyone else. FHISO *is* the community. The existing organisational members are simply volunteers getting it going before a transition to a self-governing organisation. They would be involved in all topics related to genealogical data standards (i.e. creating them, and participating with other standards bodies) to ensure that we have a "common currency". I also hope they will have an educational role too. Tony Proctor The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am grateful for those on-line family trees, too.  I have found some to be incorrect, but they have yielded valuable clues that I was able to follow to a treasure trove in some cases.   I followed some information on one of those trees on-line and saw some very gross errors. But because Ancestry.com also suggests other records to look at I was able to find the correct information on one person in particular.  She did not die as an old woman in California or whatever state out west.  She died near Louisville, Kentucky at a TB sanitorium [forgive my spelling] while she was age 21!  I found her death record on-line and eventually found her grave.  And yes, she was buried in a grave shared by two other people, one buried on top of the other - three deep.  She was the second burial in that same grave!  That city cemetery is also known for a few burials six deep.   I have made mistakes as a beginner and strive to correct them.  But I have to feel very blessed that I had a "mentor" of sorts in my early days of research, who drove it into my head CITE THOSE SOURCES!  My citations were never like those shown in EE but they would lead anyone back to where I found my information without trouble.   My problem is going back into my genealogy software and correcting the way I originally entered those sources.  On that, I suffer from the "someday I will" syndrome.   Just my 2¢ worth. Cheryl Proctor Southern Indiana ________________________________ From: Jannean James <janneanjames1958@gmail.com> To: Harold Henderson <librarytraveler@gmail.com> Cc: Transitional Genealogists <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [TGF] Dealing with our substandard pasts Harold, My grandmother considered herself a genealogist and she was to an extent. As she found information on family members she would dutifully copy each document, family group sheet, newspaper clipping, and so on and send them on to other family members. NO citations whatsoever. When I received them I would stack them in a pile, respectful of the time grandmother spent, but never thinking I would ever be interested in pursuing this passion of family history. I was wrong. I love it. When I began my own family many years ago, I got the genealogy bug and have had it ever since. It has been 25 years and I am still redoing some early work following some of grandmother's footsteps  I, for one, am grateful for on line family trees and to those who have placed them there. I, too, have contacted potential relatives, some recently even on this list, some on internet forums, and so forth. Two I found at ancestry.com because of their posted trees and we have been in constant contact since then and have met to collaborate our work cranking microfilm reels in Salt Lake. My early work is very inadequate to say the least. I now own a handful of books to aid my research and they are well-marked and flagged. More resource books are on my wish list. I, too, will probably never get through correcting earlier work. BUT I am trying, citing and writng as I go, using a combination of genealogical software programs and word documents. I attempt to work on one family at a time, but that usually doesn't work. Time consuming, thought provoking, AND educational. My friends know what I am up to and have asked for help with their histories. I have conducted a handful of informal small group workshops to this end. It is their questions, along with my own desire, to <do it the right way> that has led me to thinking about certifcation. I may eventually make an attempt, but I know I need more education before doing so. I do not consider myself a professional. I do consider myself a genealogist. It is more than a hobby, it has become a passion and one I want to share. I do stress citations, writing, and proof--not just collecting names and data. Again, Harold, I am grateful for all those on line family trees--with or without citations. They make me ask questions and potentially place me in contact with cousins I may have never known about otherwise. So leave the trees up--you never know who may contact you. Jannean James Daniel, Wyoming On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Harold Henderson <librarytraveler@gmail.com > wrote: > Kim's post provoked me to ask for advice, even though this is a topic I > know has been discussed before: how do you deal with the work you did > before you knew what you were doing? > > I have a good-sized tree on line, some of which I'm sure is accurate, and > some not so much. I'll never live long enough to fix it even if that was > all I ever did. But I have met many interesting potential relatives and > research projects by having it on line. > > I have compromised by leaving it up but by leaving out the (usually very > inadequate) citations, so that those who want to know more have to get in > touch. But I've never been quite sure whether that is the best approach. > Thoughts? > > Harold > > -- > Harold Henderson            midwestroots.net > Research, Writing, and Brickwall Dismantling from Northwest Indiana > Regularly Researching at the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center > > Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 > Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks > of the Board for Certification of Genealogists® used by the > Board to identify its program of genealogical competency evaluation > and used under license by the Board’s associates. > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Tony Proctor wrote: > I have absolutely no issue with high standards - they are essential. In > this very thread, I have bemoaned the lack of standards in online trees > and suggested this was a problem with education rather than anything > beginners should be rebuked for. Tony's post regarding education reminded me of the way I began my genealogical education. I started with the RootsWeb Guides to Tracing Family Trees at http://rwguide.rootsweb.ancestry.com/#Numerical. The lessons contain plenty of instructions about how to do genealogy, but proof is not emphasized. Proof isn't mentioned in Lesson 1, Where to Begin? A description of proof is given in Lesson 12, but proof is not talked about as a fundamental concept of genealogical research. Tweaking our online lessons to emphasize the importance of proof should improve the work produced by new genealogists. Bonnie Dunphy Kohler South Florida

Michele wrote: >I went back through and re researched everything so that I could site my sources properly. Even though >this made me mad at times and it was a bit tedious it was so worth the effort because as I did this not only >did I find mistakes but I also I found information that I didn't even know I had. I too have been going back through all my research fixing citations. I have also found information I didn't know I had. It wasn't that I didn't read it or know it was there it was because I now have the experience to understand what I had. When I started I am sure people told me cite your sources but with out experience you have no idea what that means. When I started I would ask where information came from but my source citations where minimal at best I would make a note like rootsweb or so so's tree or Aunt Virgina. The only "citation" that resembled anything that was close to accurate was for books and then it was just title and author. The most important thing to remember is a beginner doesn't have the experience to analyze what they are looking at. You can not teach experience. People learn in different ways, some from an academic perspective and some from the "street". I don't know how many people start their research thinking about sources and citations but I would bet it is a very small percentage. There not thinking in those terms and I am not sure that they should be. If you expect beginners to be research specialists you are setting yourself up for disappointment. When I talk to new researchers I tell them just make a note where you got the information even if it is just your grandmother or the postman. If they decide sometime down the road to do serious research those little clues will give them a reasonable chance of retracing their steps. I don't want to dash someone's excitement by telling them if you want to do genealogy you have to have to approach it from an academic perspective. Discovering your family history is suppose to be fun. Ann Gilchrest

Harold, My grandmother considered herself a genealogist and she was to an extent. As she found information on family members she would dutifully copy each document, family group sheet, newspaper clipping, and so on and send them on to other family members. NO citations whatsoever. When I received them I would stack them in a pile, respectful of the time grandmother spent, but never thinking I would ever be interested in pursuing this passion of family history. I was wrong. I love it. When I began my own family many years ago, I got the genealogy bug and have had it ever since. It has been 25 years and I am still redoing some early work following some of grandmother's footsteps I, for one, am grateful for on line family trees and to those who have placed them there. I, too, have contacted potential relatives, some recently even on this list, some on internet forums, and so forth. Two I found at ancestry.com because of their posted trees and we have been in constant contact since then and have met to collaborate our work cranking microfilm reels in Salt Lake. My early work is very inadequate to say the least. I now own a handful of books to aid my research and they are well-marked and flagged. More resource books are on my wish list. I, too, will probably never get through correcting earlier work. BUT I am trying, citing and writng as I go, using a combination of genealogical software programs and word documents. I attempt to work on one family at a time, but that usually doesn't work. Time consuming, thought provoking, AND educational. My friends know what I am up to and have asked for help with their histories. I have conducted a handful of informal small group workshops to this end. It is their questions, along with my own desire, to <do it the right way> that has led me to thinking about certifcation. I may eventually make an attempt, but I know I need more education before doing so. I do not consider myself a professional. I do consider myself a genealogist. It is more than a hobby, it has become a passion and one I want to share. I do stress citations, writing, and proof--not just collecting names and data. Again, Harold, I am grateful for all those on line family trees--with or without citations. They make me ask questions and potentially place me in contact with cousins I may have never known about otherwise. So leave the trees up--you never know who may contact you. Jannean James Daniel, Wyoming On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Harold Henderson <librarytraveler@gmail.com > wrote: > Kim's post provoked me to ask for advice, even though this is a topic I > know has been discussed before: how do you deal with the work you did > before you knew what you were doing? > > I have a good-sized tree on line, some of which I'm sure is accurate, and > some not so much. I'll never live long enough to fix it even if that was > all I ever did. But I have met many interesting potential relatives and > research projects by having it on line. > > I have compromised by leaving it up but by leaving out the (usually very > inadequate) citations, so that those who want to know more have to get in > touch. But I've never been quite sure whether that is the best approach. > Thoughts? > > Harold > > -- > Harold Henderson midwestroots.net > Research, Writing, and Brickwall Dismantling from Northwest Indiana > Regularly Researching at the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center > > Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 > Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks > of the Board for Certification of Genealogists® used by the > Board to identify its program of genealogical competency evaluation > and used under license by the Board’s associates. > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I am concerned about some of the feelings expressed in this discussion, but am at a disadvantage in commenting because, for unknown reasons, I have not received some of the emails to which some of you have been referring. I completely understand the strong feelings held on various sides of these issues. Yes, some more experienced genealogists bemoan the fact that the work of some less experienced researchers ("beginners," "hobbyists," "greenies") does not meet the highest standards. But, a far more important (and I think, larger) group of experienced genealogists (both "for pay" practitioners and serious, highly knowledgeable hobbyists) stand ready to help less experienced researchers improve their skills. On the other hand, some aspiring genealogists take offense and call promoters of high standards "elitists." I don't see any need for such an emotional label. We were all beginners at one time. Today's beginners are tomorrow's pros. How does this transition happen? Through genealogical education. Opportunities abound: local genealogical societies, regional and national institutes, journals, websites, blogs, etc. So, you're happy being a hobbyist? Nothing wrong with that. Family history is a great hobby. But, the information you compile about your family will be more valuable for your children and grandchildren if you get the facts right and make some effort to cite your sources. Many non-elitist experienced genealogists stand ready to help you. J. H. Fonkert St. Paul, MN -----Original Message----- From: Tony Proctor <tony@proctor.net> To: eshown <eshown@comcast.net>; 'TGF' <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Nov 24, 2012 4:03 am Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma >> We are all part of that *industry,* even those of us who have been >> "perceived" as "elitists." Perceptions are hard to break, on both sides. >> But, as in politics, so long as we rally behind the "them vs. us" >> mindset, we accomplish little. When we (as Dick went on to do) make the >> effort to understand where others are coming from, this field moves >> forward. Thanks for the comments Elizabeth. I was going to add a note about international perceptions because I feel we've all been guilty, at some point, about assuming the same views, perceptions, and education levels apply everywhere. Although I'm English, I now live in Ireland. I give a workshop in the local town where I get people started with their research. These are people who may have just bought their first computer, or who are too scared to use one. I know that they see the advertisements for ancestry and findmypast (which are now very common on our TV) and they've usually watched Who Do You Think You Are (which makes it all look too easy). These people are unaware of most of the genealogical societies. It almost seems that societies such as BCG, APG, and even the UK's SoG have an air of being only for professionals. I'm not suggesting in any way that this is an intentional form of elitism but we should be wary of being exclusive.As already mentioned in this thread, our field is unusual in involving both professionals and hobbyists. Attempts to police, regulate, or licence that field would be divisive IMO. I know the US has a pervasive notion that Salt Lake is the genealogical capital of the world. You might be interested, if not shocked, to know that I haven't had a single person in my workshop that has heard of FamilySearch, or even realised that the Mormon Church has anything to do with genealogical data. This is a little sad given the enormous contributions they have made, and it highlights the need to be part of an inclusive genealogical community. NB: I mentioned FHISO in my original post. I just want to clarify something for the record - they are not concerned with any type of regulation or policing. Also, they are not some separate group hoping to legislate for everyone else. FHISO *is* the community. The existing organisational members are simply volunteers getting it going before a transition to a self-governing organisation. They would be involved in all topics related to genealogical data standards (i.e. creating them, and participating with other standards bodies) to ensure that we have a "common currency". I also hope they will have an educational role too. Tony Proctor The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Harold, I should say that I didn't necessarily felt left out of the community but a couple of people certainly made me feel like being a newbie was a terrible thing. I was a but put off by not feeling welcome, especially when the people in question didn't know my background. I do cringe when I consider the few missteps along the way. To correct a few things, I have put my Ancestry trees in private mode but will share the information with full disclosure about the source material, and whether I have confidence in the material as a whole. I have reached the point where I have moved beyond the basic "dates, names and places" to include "context, background and community", which seems a more satisfying pursuit. I realize that the article was in fact relatively neutral in tone. The discussion surely indicates some vulnerabilities and insecurities within the field. I also realize fully that we are trying to be academic while helping out the curiosity seekers. ~Kim >________________________________ > From: Harold Henderson <librarytraveler@gmail.com> >To: Kim Ostermyer <kim_ostermyer@yahoo.com> >Cc: Transitional Genealogists forum <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:20 AM >Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma, newcomers > > >Kim -- > >Thanks. Your path sounds a lot like mine. (It really was fun being a name collector!) But I never had much of a feeling of being put out of any club that I wanted to be a member of. If and when I received criticism I tried to make use of it . . . when I understood it at all. These days, the judgments I see made are not exclusionist -- they're made not because people are not certified or accredited, but because they just aren't doing good work. > >The article that started all this discussion named no names, but did name some basic standards, and left it up to the readers to decide where they fit in. Nothing elitist about that in my book. (Plus, anyone who is certified or accredited knows good and well that it does not in itself prevent them from making mistakes or having bad judgment.) More at http://midwesternmicrohistory.blogspot.com/2012/11/misteaks.html. > >Harold > > > > >On Fri, Nov 23, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Kim Ostermyer <kim_ostermyer@yahoo.com> wrote: > >I have a confession to make-- >> >>I used to be one of those genealogists mentioned. I was a genealogy greenhorn at one point and it was a lot of fun. I had adrenaline rushes when I was doing my drive-by genealogy. I enjoyed the casual aspect of the hunt. I've matured a lot in my ten years of researching--what I am capable now is a wholly different level than what I did even five years ago. I've become more technical and more deliberate in my research, and certainly more analytical. >> >>I don't have credentials but I am fully aware that I am not a hobbyist, amateur or hack. In the view of some, no credentials would seem that my abilities are mediocre at best, which is a slippery slope to be on. Drawing a line in the proverbial sand and casting out potential clients, colleagues and fellow seekers because of their inexperience is unkind and counter-intuitive to say the least. I think it's important to have standards to aim for, but not to such a degree as to dissuade the curious. >> >> >>I have always had a concern over the undertow of the elitism that I was exposed to early on. For someone new to the field, it certainly would seem a bit daunting and disconcerting. While I understand the desire to have a field full of academic types with credentials and licensing, I feel it is unrealistic to expect this of lay genealogists. I wonder if the advocates for these standards quantify their everyday conversations with sources. I don't mean to imply citing sources while chit-chatting, but having a realistic expectation that a conversation is based on what could be considered facts and not the further repeating of the opinions of someone else. >> >> >>I'm not on the restricting lay genealogists from joining the party, nor will I join up. Even as I am aiming for certification myself, I know that such a level of scholarship is atypical. If we assume that Malcolm Gladwell's theory that it takes 10,000 hours to master something, then most lay genealogists will never reach that point. This is what Bill Gates has to say on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsGihiSE6sM. I know that I am beyond the drive-by genealogy because when I tell people what I am researching, I have to break it down into simpler terms. >> >> >>Just a few thoughts. >> >>Cheers, >>Kim Ostermyer, futurecertified genealogist >>The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >-- >Harold Henderson            midwestroots.net >Research, Writing, and Brickwall Dismantling from Northwest Indiana >Regularly Researching at the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center > >Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 >Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks >of the Board for Certification of Genealogists® used by the >Board to identify its program of genealogical competencyevaluation >and used under license by the Board’s associates. > > > > > >

My learning steps were slow and mostly self-taught at the beginning. I got so tired of looking up the same information over and over again to determine why I included it that I decided to, in my own way, source it so I did not have to look it up again. Luckily for me my tree is not huge (under 1000). In 2008, I decided I wanted to go professional eventually so I started on a serious campaign to educate myself and improve my skills. As I studied, I noticed significant improvement in my knowledge and skills. I also started noticing my mistakes and set out to correct them. During the year 2009, I set out to re-source all my "facts" (as FTM calls them) following EE. In the late 1990s, using FTM I had put my tree on Genealogy.com. I was so enthusiastic and excited about it and wanted to share it with anyone who was researching my lines. I was in complete ignorance of the future repercussions of that act with its lack of privacy settings and terms of ownership. I blush in embarrassment today when I think of my earlier naiveté. Anyway, Ancestry acquired Genealogy.com and my tree. I no longer own it and cannot fix it. I do not have an Ancestry tree or any online tree today because of this experience. Eileen _______________________________ Eileen A Souza Eldersburg, MD Old Bones Genealogy LLC info@oldbonesgenealogy.com www.oldbonesgenealogy.com > -----Original Message----- > From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Harold Henderson > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:28 AM > To: Transitional Genealogists > Subject: [TGF] Dealing with our substandard pasts > > Kim's post provoked me to ask for advice, even though this is a topic I know has > been discussed before: how do you deal with the work you did before you knew > what you were doing? > > I have a good-sized tree on line, some of which I'm sure is accurate, and some not > so much. I'll never live long enough to fix it even if that was all I ever did. But I > have met many interesting potential relatives and research projects by having it > on line. > > I have compromised by leaving it up but by leaving out the (usually very > inadequate) citations, so that those who want to know more have to get in touch. > But I've never been quite sure whether that is the best approach. > Thoughts? > > Harold > > -- > Harold Henderson midwestroots.net > Research, Writing, and Brickwall Dismantling from Northwest Indiana Regularly > Researching at the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center > > Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 > Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks of the Board for > Certification of Genealogists® used by the Board to identify its program of > genealogical competency evaluation and used under license by the Board’s > associates. > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL- > GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

>> We are all part of that *industry,* even those of us who have been >> "perceived" as "elitists." Perceptions are hard to break, on both sides. >> But, as in politics, so long as we rally behind the "them vs. us" >> mindset, we accomplish little. When we (as Dick went on to do) make the >> effort to understand where others are coming from, this field moves >> forward. Thanks for the comments Elizabeth. I was going to add a note about international perceptions because I feel we've all been guilty, at some point, about assuming the same views, perceptions, and education levels apply everywhere. Although I'm English, I now live in Ireland. I give a workshop in the local town where I get people started with their research. These are people who may have just bought their first computer, or who are too scared to use one. I know that they see the advertisements for ancestry and findmypast (which are now very common on our TV) and they've usually watched Who Do You Think You Are (which makes it all look too easy). These people are unaware of most of the genealogical societies. It almost seems that societies such as BCG, APG, and even the UK's SoG have an air of being only for professionals. I'm not suggesting in any way that this is an intentional form of elitism but we should be wary of being exclusive.As already mentioned in this thread, our field is unusual in involving both professionals and hobbyists. Attempts to police, regulate, or licence that field would be divisive IMO. I know the US has a pervasive notion that Salt Lake is the genealogical capital of the world. You might be interested, if not shocked, to know that I haven't had a single person in my workshop that has heard of FamilySearch, or even realised that the Mormon Church has anything to do with genealogical data. This is a little sad given the enormous contributions they have made, and it highlights the need to be part of an inclusive genealogical community. NB: I mentioned FHISO in my original post. I just want to clarify something for the record - they are not concerned with any type of regulation or policing. Also, they are not some separate group hoping to legislate for everyone else. FHISO *is* the community. The existing organisational members are simply volunteers getting it going before a transition to a self-governing organisation. They would be involved in all topics related to genealogical data standards (i.e. creating them, and participating with other standards bodies) to ensure that we have a "common currency". I also hope they will have an educational role too. Tony Proctor