Here is what letters after a social security number means. http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1366/~/meaning-of-the-le tters-after-a-social-security-or-medicare-number Phyllis -----Original Message----- From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Karen Rhodes > - I have a California death certificate that reports a social > security number with an "A" appended to the end of the number For example: > "000-00-0000A." I think the "A" might mean "amended." Can anyone confirm this? with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm hoping for your input regarding an adopted child, my grandfather. His birth parents were not married when he was born.  FamilySearch has him listed as _____Baxter, father is listed as N. Baxter and mother is Emma Crull. Along come a couple who want to adopt the child, Martha and Otto Penner.  A year to the date of his birth the couple adopts the child, who is now named Otto J Crull on the adoption document with the mother listed as Emma Crull, a single woman and mother.   The father, N Baxter, is not mentioned at all. The adoption took place in the probate court of Wyandotte, Kansas; Emma was a resident there. My question is how best should I list Otto?  I use FTM2012 which allows you to enter all the parents, adopted and birth, and to make one set "preferred".  However, when you do this you don't see the other set of parents.  Same thing on Ancestry.com. I have listed all the events of his birth and adoption plus have all the documents attached with the correct dates.   Currently I have him listed with his adoptive name and adoptive parents.  Or would it be more correct to list his with his actual birth name and birth parents?  I did have him listed as Otto Johanne (Crull) Penner but was told by someone that that was WRONG.  What is the best course to take?  Thanks.   Cathy Champion in Fenton, MO 63026 (near St. Louis)   "When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade without further introduction" - Mark Twain

On 11/29/2012 4:42 PM, JFonkert@aol.com wrote: > A couple of questions about social security numbers and SS-5 forms: > > > - I have a California death certificate that reports a social security > number with an "A" appended to the end of the number For example: > "000-00-0000A." I think the "A" might mean "amended." Can anyone confirm this? It's a Medicare number. Depends on whether you have Medicare A or Medicare B. I have A, and my Medicare number is my SSN with an A after it. > > > - The SS-5 associated with this number is for a different male name than > appears on the death certificate. For example, the death certificate says > "John Q. Public" and the SS-5 says "Norman Z. Private." Yes, the names are > that different, but I know this man used both names in his life. > > > - However, searching for this social security number returns the name on > the death certificate ("John Q. Public") rather than the name that appears > on the SS-5 ("Norman Z. Private"). > > > I am guessing that a) either this man filed two different SS-5 > applications, or at some time during his life or at death, the SSA records were > corrected. Yet, when I requested the SS-5 from the SSA, I received only the one > record with the conflicting name. > > > What do you think? > > I really don't have an opinion about that, having never encountered it before. Karen Packard Rhodes currently residing in Pinellas Park, Pinellas County, Florida

I have received answers to this question on the APG-Members list. In short, we think the "A" refers to a formerly employed SocSec claimant. A spouse or widow making a claim on the employee's account would be "B." In this case, the appended "A" appears on a death certificate, not a SSA document. Our theory is that the informant for the death certificate (in this case a daughter of the deceased) used a SSA document with the "A" to report the social security number for creation of the death certificate. -----Original Message----- From: JFonkert <JFonkert@aol.com> To: transitional-genealogists-forum <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:17 pm Subject: [TGF] social security numbers A couple of questions about social security numbers and SS-5 forms: - I have a California death certificate that reports a social security number with an "A" appended to the end of the number For example: "000-00-0000A." I think the "A" might mean "amended." Can anyone confirm this? - The SS-5 associated with this number is for a different male name than appears on the death certificate. For example, the death certificate says "John Q. Public" and the SS-5 says "Norman Z. Private." Yes, the names are that different, but I know this man used both names in his life. - However, searching for this social security number returns the name on the death certificate ("John Q. Public") rather than the name that appears on the SS-5 ("Norman Z. Private"). I am guessing that a) either this man filed two different SS-5 applications, or at some time during his life or at death, the SSA records were corrected. Yet, when I requested the SS-5 from the SSA, I received only the one record with the conflicting name. What do you think? Thanks. J. H. ("Jay") Fonkert, CG View my speaking calendar at: _http://www.genealogicalspeakersguild.org/calendar_view.php_ (http://www.genealogicalspeakersguild.org/calendar_view.php) _http://www.fourgenerationsgenealogy.wordpress.com_ (http://www.fourgenerationsgenealogy.wordpress.com/) _http://fourgenerationsgenealogy.blogspot.com/_ (http://fourgenerationsgenealogy.blogspot.com/) Saint Paul, MN Director, Association of Professional Genealogists professional profile at _www.apgen.org_ (http://www.apgen.org)/) *"CG" & "Certified Genealogist" are service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, and are used by authorized associates following periodic, peer-reviewed competency evaluations. Certificate No. 965, issued 11 May 2012, expires 11 May 2017. The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A couple of questions about social security numbers and SS-5 forms: - I have a California death certificate that reports a social security number with an "A" appended to the end of the number For example: "000-00-0000A." I think the "A" might mean "amended." Can anyone confirm this? - The SS-5 associated with this number is for a different male name than appears on the death certificate. For example, the death certificate says "John Q. Public" and the SS-5 says "Norman Z. Private." Yes, the names are that different, but I know this man used both names in his life. - However, searching for this social security number returns the name on the death certificate ("John Q. Public") rather than the name that appears on the SS-5 ("Norman Z. Private"). I am guessing that a) either this man filed two different SS-5 applications, or at some time during his life or at death, the SSA records were corrected. Yet, when I requested the SS-5 from the SSA, I received only the one record with the conflicting name. What do you think? Thanks. J. H. ("Jay") Fonkert, CG View my speaking calendar at: _http://www.genealogicalspeakersguild.org/calendar_view.php_ (http://www.genealogicalspeakersguild.org/calendar_view.php) _http://www.fourgenerationsgenealogy.wordpress.com_ (http://www.fourgenerationsgenealogy.wordpress.com/) _http://fourgenerationsgenealogy.blogspot.com/_ (http://fourgenerationsgenealogy.blogspot.com/) Saint Paul, MN Director, Association of Professional Genealogists professional profile at _www.apgen.org_ (http://www.apgen.org)/) *"CG" & "Certified Genealogist" are service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, and are used by authorized associates following periodic, peer-reviewed competency evaluations. Certificate No. 965, issued 11 May 2012, expires 11 May 2017.

To everyone who shared your knowledge on this subject, privately and on list: Your thoughts are instructive. I hope I see this patron again. In any case I am more prepared to help someone with a similar problem. Thank you, LeRoy

Dear TGF members, My name is Rebecca Whitman Koford and I am a researcher and lecturer in Maryland. I am helping to get the word out about the project to digitize the War of 1812 Federal Pensions at NARA. I would like to ask any of you who would like to more about the project to email me privately at rwk.genealogy@gmail.com. I wouldn't want to take up the time of people on the list who wouldn't be interested. For those who are interested, I can provide information, brochures, and even a pre-made powerpoint presentation you may be interested in using when sharing about the project to genealogical and historical groups you attend. ** To view the images already available online for FREE, go to: http://go.fold3.com/1812pensions/ To learn more about the project, go to: www.fgs.org. Many Thanks, Rebecca Whitman Koford

LeRoy -- Interesting case. Had she obtained the divorce records on the chance that they might contain a clue? If they divorced in Cook County, http://www.cookcountyclerkofcourt.org/?section=RecArchivePage&RecArchivePage=archive_holdings The index is microfilm, but the records are the originals, complete with dust and old dead rubber bands. It is a two-step process, easier for a Chicago researcher than a visitor as a week may elapse between locating the desired record and having it retrieved from remote storage. Harold On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 2:30 PM, LeRoy Atkins <lmatkins@cox.net> wrote: > > Please give your recommendation: > > A woman was looking for the parents of her mother (not in meeting the > mother.) A 1958 Chicago marriage license and certificate indicated her > parents were married by a judge. Her father was 24; her mother 16. Their > daughter, a family search library patron, was born in 1959 and her parents > were divorced six months later. Her father’s older sister adopted the > patron. She had met her paternal grandparents. Her father’s family lived in > Minnesota and as far as the patron knew had never lived in Chicago. Her > father appears with his parents and siblings in the 1940 census. > > I suggested that she look in the Chicago telephone directories for all > people of her mother’s maiden name for the years before and after 1959. And > consider researching those families. As I recall the name was Albrect. > > I encouraged her to post a query at RootsWeb, etc. > > Perhaps she could locate school records schools near the location of the > court in which she was married. > > If there were a community newspaper there is a small chance of a wedding > announcement. > > She decline the name of a Chicago researcher. > > My question is academic. I may never see the patron again. > > Thank you for your thoughts about finding the patron’s maternal parents. > > LeRoy > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Harold Henderson midwestroots.net Research, Writing, and Brickwall Dismantling from Northwest Indiana Regularly Researching at the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists® used by the Board to identify its program of genealogical competency evaluation and used under license by the Board’s associates.

Please give your recommendation: A woman was looking for the parents of her mother (not in meeting the mother.) A 1958 Chicago marriage license and certificate indicated her parents were married by a judge. Her father was 24; her mother 16. Their daughter, a family search library patron, was born in 1959 and her parents were divorced six months later. Her father’s older sister adopted the patron. She had met her paternal grandparents. Her father’s family lived in Minnesota and as far as the patron knew had never lived in Chicago. Her father appears with his parents and siblings in the 1940 census. I suggested that she look in the Chicago telephone directories for all people of her mother’s maiden name for the years before and after 1959. And consider researching those families. As I recall the name was Albrect. I encouraged her to post a query at RootsWeb, etc. Perhaps she could locate school records schools near the location of the court in which she was married. If there were a community newspaper there is a small chance of a wedding announcement. She decline the name of a Chicago researcher. My question is academic. I may never see the patron again. Thank you for your thoughts about finding the patron’s maternal parents. LeRoy

DonnDevine@aol.com Sent: 26 November 2012 5:23 AM > If those of us who have been around for awhile can help newcomers appreciate the concepts of source, evidence and fact, and the relationships between them, without being condescending, we can introduce them to that spirit of collegiality that I have found characteristic of genealogists generally. I fully support this. My difficulty is in trying not to swamp them with information. [I am talking about people who drop me an e-mail asking for information about their family.] My approach tends to be starting with a "chatty" summary followed by the detail of what I've found together with cited sources. I explain that I've added the citations to help me, or others, take the study forward - and ask their forgiveness. Some people will ignore the detail, other gush with admiration for what I've found. > Recognize that they (credentials) can be intimidating to a neophyte, and are best played down to avoid any suggestion of elitism, and to emphasize the cooperative spirit that most of us find so rewarding. Why mention the credentials at all? I can see that, in the very early days, then credentials are necessary. However, after the first year or two then it will be references from satisfied customers that are far more important. This is just as true when one has (say) a college degree. While it is important in gaining your first job, future employers are far more interested in what you've done rather than your credentials. If I visit a medical practitioner I do not ask to check their credentials - maybe I should <grin>. If I was looking for a genealogist to carry out some work - I would be looking for satisfied customers and not initials after their name. Chris -----Original Message----- From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of DonnDevine@aol.com Sent: 26 November 2012 5:23 AM To: transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Cc: crscott@heritagebooks.com Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma, newcomers Craig, your analysis is one I can agree with. If those of us who have been around for awhile can help newcomers appreciate the concepts of source, evidence and fact, and the relationships between them, without being condescending, we can introduce them to that spirit of collegiality that I have found characteristic of genealogists generally. One caution, however, for those of us with credentials: Recognize that they can be intimidating to a neophyte, and are best played down to avoid any suggestion of elitism, and to emphasize the cooperative spiritthat most of us find so rewarding. Donn Donn Devine, CG Wilmington, Delaware, USA CG and Certified Genealogist are service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants after periodic evaluation, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark Office. ______________ Craig wrote: Everyone was ______(insert appropriate term here)__________ in the beginning. For fifteen years I was alone in the wilderness and I did not understand source, much less evidence, but I had a lot of facts. But my house was built of cards on a foundation of sand. And then I learned that there were rules, but they were funny rules. They were rules you could chose to adhere to, or not. At first I stumbled among the petunias, but I found faith in myself and my ability. Misplaced as it might have been at the time. And then I gained courage, and I presented myself to the special people. And I found that my fear of them was misplaced. That they welcomed me, even with my arrogance and my bravado. And they helped me. And it was good. And I learned that genealogy is like the world, everything, almost, is a normal curve. That there are angels on one end and donkeys on the other, but that generally in the middle are people that help me and I help them, as I can. I avoid donkeys. They tend to be stubborn, kick a lot, and believe they are the angels. But you know the angels. The angels have a funny thought. They think we all should be angels. The donkeys, they are afraid of you. You are competition. The angels love competition, because it makes us all better. So when you think someone is being a donkey you have to examine the situation. Because what you think might be a donkey, really might be an angel helping you to become an angel. None of us is perfect, not even the angels. If you think you are perfect in your genealogy you might be a donkey in the making. You have to look at your palace and see if it really is a house of cards. Genealogy is a wide field of endeavor with millions of people with opinions about things. Among them are people with badges. The badges are unimportant to you. A badge does not grant anyone special powers. A badge does not make a donkey anything other than a donkey with a badge. Angels don't need badges, but they like to test themselves and keeping a badge is a good way to do that. But it does not make them a better angel. They are just an angel with a badge. And by definition, an angel does not know they are an angel. If they think they are an angel, by definition they are not. So my advice is that if you pay attention to the first two chapters, live by the words source, evidence and fact, and recognize the relationship that exists between them you will be fine. And the next time you are at a conference and you see a group of people that you think are people that understand the first two chapters really well, sit down and talk with them. And if they aren't having a meeting, you will be welcome. That meeting part is always a problem. But you will figure it out. This is by far the easiest group in the world to join. It let me be a member in 1985 and it helped to make me a better genealogist. So evaluate the criticisms. If they are donkey, chalk it up to mean spirit and move on. Dwelling on it just foolish, donkeys are every where. But if you can see their point then learn from it and move on a better genealogist. And that is what really counts, becoming a better genealogist. C. The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Oops, make that Pontiac County, not Gatineau County, Quebec.   Yvonne ________________________________ From: Yvonne <ydemoskoff@yahoo.com> To: "kfortner@sympatico.ca" <kfortner@sympatico.ca>; 'Kith-n-Kin' <Kith-n-Kin@cox.net>; "transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com" <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 8:33:40 AM Subject: Re: [TGF] help with a record Hi, Kathie.   You will see a slightly more readable version of William Holden and Mary Murphy's marriage record at familysearch.org. Follow this trail:   Canada > Quebec, Catholic Parish Registers, 1621-1979 > Chapeau > Saint Alphonsus > Baptêmes, mariages, sépultures 1859-1876 > Image  207 of 513   For the part you asked about, I read:   "daughter of Michael Murphy and of Sara / Ryan, Parish of Nonagle, Co. of Tipperary / Ireland"   My father's maternal relatives are from Chapeau on Ile des Allumettes in Gatineau County, Quebec. In fact, some of these Vanasse relatives married with Holden family members :)   Yvonne

Hi, Kathie.   You will see a slightly more readable version of William Holden and Mary Murphy's marriage record at familysearch.org. Follow this trail:   Canada > Quebec, Catholic Parish Registers, 1621-1979 > Chapeau > Saint Alphonsus > Baptêmes, mariages, sépultures 1859-1876 > Image  207 of 513   For the part you asked about, I read:   "daughter of Michael Murphy and of Sara / Ryan, Parish of Nonagle, Co. of Tipperary / Ireland"   My father's maternal relatives are from Chapeau on Ile des Allumettes in Gatineau County, Quebec. In fact, some of these Vanasse relatives married with Holden family members :)   Yvonne ________________________________ From: Kathie Fortner <kfortner@sympatico.ca> To: 'Kith-n-Kin' <Kith-n-Kin@cox.net>; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 3:21:13 AM Subject: Re: [TGF] help with a record Hi Pat I looked for this marriage for a long time.  I found in Ancestry what I believed was the page this marriage was entered in the register but it was unreadable and entirely washed out. I went through the register page by page on Ancestry once I knew the date of the marriage and that is how I found the page it should have been on. I was of the opinion that a copy of the register would be kept in the parish and a copy would be sent to the diocese. I sent to Yourfolks.com and they sent me a copy of the marriage. I can tell by the form that it came from a parish register.  I don't know if Yourfolks scanned a different register (copy) or whether Ancestry just did a poor scan of this page in the register. But I was thrilled to get it. You can do free searches and you can also pay a small fee for a number of hits.  I think I used some of the points I had to my credit for this service. Marriages are sorted by region so if sons and daughters married in the same region as the parents they will show up together.  But you are right, they don't seem to tell you that the source used was parish registers. But those parish registers kept all the information on birth, death and marriage.  I have the entire marriage record.  I am working on a credit with NGIS in immigration and realized that the name of the parish is the one clue I have to trace this family back to Ireland.  The other clue is that they required a dispensation to marry and I believe it would be because Mary's baptism records would be in Ireland and she married in Quebec.  I have not as yet determined whether a copy of the dispensation request sent to the bishop would be available and have more information. Kathie     -----Original Message----- From: Kith-n-Kin [mailto:Kith-n-Kin@cox.net] Sent: November-25-12 4:04 PM To: kfortner@sympatico.ca; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [TGF] help with a record Kathie I'm confused. This record is a marriage record from Quebec, Canada? At first I thought it was from County Tipperary, Ireland. Apparently the reference reads something like "Mary Murphy daughter of Michael Murphy and ____ Ryan" [of] some place in County Tipperary, Ireland? If so, I'd suggest the "[P....]" is indeed the name of some parish, there would be no reason to identify the priest in this type of document. I just checked the Drouin Collection (at Ancestry.com) to see if they have this record, but came up empty. Curious to know more about the yourfolks.com website you mention. I couldn't find anywhere that they list their sources. Pat Dunford The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well said, Craig! I have found many angels along my path and without their help I would found that path very hard to follow. In 30 years of research, I can't recall any genealogist that was not willing to help me, even those with many credentials. It may have only been a small clue of what direction to go in, but always help of some kind. We were all newcomers at some point and I firmly believe one of our obligations is to repay the angels by being one ourselves. Connie Bradshaw In a message dated 11/26/2012 12:26:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, DonnDevine@aol.com writes: Craig, your analysis is one I can agree with. If those of us who have been around for awhile can help newcomers appreciate the concepts of source, evidence and fact, and the relationships between them, without being condescending, we can introduce them to that spirit of collegiality that I have found characteristic of genealogists generally. One caution, however, for those of us with credentials: Recognize that they can be intimidating to a neophyte, and are best played down to avoid any suggestion of elitism, and to emphasize the cooperative spiritthat most of us find so rewarding. Donn Donn Devine, CG Wilmington, Delaware, USA CG and Certified Genealogist are service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants after periodic evaluation, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark Office. ______________ Craig wrote: Everyone was ______(insert appropriate term here)__________ in the beginning. For fifteen years I was alone in the wilderness and I did not understand source, much less evidence, but I had a lot of facts. But my house was built of cards on a foundation of sand. And then I learned that there were rules, but they were funny rules. They were rules you could chose to adhere to, or not. At first I stumbled among the petunias, but I found faith in myself and my ability. Misplaced as it might have been at the time. And then I gained courage, and I presented myself to the special people. And I found that my fear of them was misplaced. That they welcomed me, even with my arrogance and my bravado. And they helped me. And it was good. And I learned that genealogy is like the world, everything, almost, is a normal curve. That there are angels on one end and donkeys on the other, but that generally in the middle are people that help me and I help them, as I can. I avoid donkeys. They tend to be stubborn, kick a lot, and believe they are the angels. But you know the angels. The angels have a funny thought. They think we all should be angels. The donkeys, they are afraid of you. You are competition. The angels love competition, because it makes us all better. So when you think someone is being a donkey you have to examine the situation. Because what you think might be a donkey, really might be an angel helping you to become an angel. None of us is perfect, not even the angels. If you think you are perfect in your genealogy you might be a donkey in the making. You have to look at your palace and see if it really is a house of cards. Genealogy is a wide field of endeavor with millions of people with opinions about things. Among them are people with badges. The badges are unimportant to you. A badge does not grant anyone special powers. A badge does not make a donkey anything other than a donkey with a badge. Angels don't need badges, but they like to test themselves and keeping a badge is a good way to do that. But it does not make them a better angel. They are just an angel with a badge. And by definition, an angel does not know they are an angel. If they think they are an angel, by definition they are not. So my advice is that if you pay attention to the first two chapters, live by the words source, evidence and fact, and recognize the relationship that exists between them you will be fine. And the next time you are at a conference and you see a group of people that you think are people that understand the first two chapters really well, sit down and talk with them. And if they aren't having a meeting, you will be welcome. That meeting part is always a problem. But you will figure it out. This is by far the easiest group in the world to join. It let me be a member in 1985 and it helped to make me a better genealogist. So evaluate the criticisms. If they are donkey, chalk it up to mean spirit and move on. Dwelling on it just foolish, donkeys are every where. But if you can see their point then learn from it and move on a better genealogist. And that is what really counts, becoming a better genealogist. C. The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kathie, I went back and checked the document and your website again. I changed my opinion on P___. I do think it is Parish not Priest as Pat stated. I also noted that the family is Roman Catholic. I would expect the original register or an accurate transcription to be in Latin. This is an old transcription, based on the handwriting, from something but is not in Latin. I recommend that to make sure the information is accurate you try to find the original register from the church or the diocese. They may include more information. Usually, you find the name of the priest and the witnesses, which may exist in this transcription but the sample is too small to tell. Here in the states when I write the diocese, they usually send me a copy of the Latin register and a translation. Eileen _______________________________ Eileen A Souza Eldersburg, MD Old Bones Genealogy LLC info@oldbonesgenealogy.com www.oldbonesgenealogy.com > -----Original Message----- > From: transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:transitional-genealogists-forum-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Kathie Fortner > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 6:21 AM > To: 'Kith-n-Kin'; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [TGF] help with a record > > Hi Pat > I looked for this marriage for a long time. I found in Ancestry what I believed > was the page this marriage was entered in the register but it was unreadable and > entirely washed out. I went through the register page by page on Ancestry once I > knew the date of the marriage and that is how I found the page it should have > been on. I was of the opinion that a copy of the register would be kept in the > parish and a copy would be sent to the diocese. I sent to Yourfolks.com and they > sent me a copy of the marriage. > I can tell by the form that it came from a parish register. I don't know if > Yourfolks scanned a different register (copy) or whether Ancestry just did a poor > scan of this page in the register. But I was thrilled to get it. > > You can do free searches and you can also pay a small fee for a number of hits. I > think I used some of the points I had to my credit for this service. Marriages are > sorted by region so if sons and daughters married in the same region as the > parents they will show up together. > > But you are right, they don't seem to tell you that the source used was parish > registers. But those parish registers kept all the information on > birth, death and marriage. > > I have the entire marriage record. I am working on a credit with NGIS in > immigration and realized that the name of the parish is the one clue I have to > trace this family back to Ireland. The other clue is that they required a > dispensation to marry and I believe it would be because Mary's baptism records > would be in Ireland and she married in Quebec. I have not as yet determined > whether a copy of the dispensation request sent to the bishop would be available > and have more information. > > Kathie > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kith-n-Kin [mailto:Kith-n-Kin@cox.net] > Sent: November-25-12 4:04 PM > To: kfortner@sympatico.ca; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [TGF] help with a record > > Kathie > > I'm confused. This record is a marriage record from Quebec, Canada? At first I > thought it was from County Tipperary, Ireland. > > Apparently the reference reads something like "Mary Murphy daughter of Michael > Murphy and ____ Ryan" [of] some place in County Tipperary, Ireland? > > If so, I'd suggest the "[P....]" is indeed the name of some parish, there would be > no reason to identify the priest in this type of document. > > I just checked the Drouin Collection (at Ancestry.com) to see if they have this > record, but came up empty. > > Curious to know more about the yourfolks.com website you mention. I couldn't > find anywhere that they list their sources. > > Pat Dunford > > > > > > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to TRANSITIONAL- > GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Every time that this discussion comes up, I am reminded that genealogists do not live in isolation in a bubble. Every profession, every avocation, every fraternal organization has some version of these ongoing discussions. best regards, Dee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig R. Scott, CG" <crscott@HeritageBooks.com> To: "Kim Ostermyer" <kim_ostermyer@yahoo.com> Cc: "Transitional Genealogists forum" <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 8:31:46 AM Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma, newcomers Everyone was ______(insert appropriate term here)__________ in the beginning. For fifteen years I was alone in the wilderness and I did not understand source, much less evidence, but I had a lot of facts. But my house was built of cards on a foundation of sand. And then I learned that there were rules, but they were funny rules. They were rules you could chose to adhere to, or not. At first I stumbled among the petunias, but I found faith in myself and my ability. Misplaced as it might have been at the time. And then I gained courage, and I presented myself to the special people. And I found that my fear of them was misplaced. That they welcomed me, even with my arrogance and my bravado. And they helped me. And it was good. And I learned that genealogy is like the world, everything, almost, is a normal curve. That there are angels on one end and donkeys on the other, but that generally in the middle are people that help me and I help them, as I can. I avoid donkeys. They tend to be stubborn, kick a lot, and believe they are the angels. But you know the angels. The angels have a funny thought. They think we all should be angels. The donkeys, they are afraid of you. You are competition. The angels love competition, because it makes us all better. So when you think someone is being a donkey you have to examine the situation. Because what you think might be a donkey, really might be an angel helping you to become an angel. None of us is perfect, not even the angels. If you think you are perfect in your genealogy you might be a donkey in the making. You have to look at your palace and see if it really is a house of cards. Genealogy is a wide field of endeavor with millions of people with opinions about things. Among them are people with badges. The badges are unimportant to you. A badge does not grant anyone special powers. A badge does not make a donkey anything other than a donkey with a badge. Angels don't need badges, but they like to test themselves and keeping a badge is a good way to do that. But it does not make them a better angel. They are just an angel with a badge. And by definition, an angel does not know they are an angel. If they think they are an angel, by definition they are not. So my advice is that if you pay attention to the first two chapters, live by the words source, evidence and fact, and recognize the relationship that exists between them you will be fine. And the next time you are at a conference and you see a group of people that you think are people that understand the first two chapters really well, sit down and talk with them. And if they aren't having a meeting, you will be welcome. That meeting part is always a problem. But you will figure it out. This is by far the easiest group in the world to join. It let me be a member in 1985 and it helped to make me a better genealogist. So evaluate the criticisms. If they are donkey, chalk it up to mean spirit and move on. Dwelling on it just foolish, donkeys are every where. But if you can see their point then learn from it and move on a better genealogist. And that is what really counts, becoming a better genealogist. C.

Hi Pat I looked for this marriage for a long time. I found in Ancestry what I believed was the page this marriage was entered in the register but it was unreadable and entirely washed out. I went through the register page by page on Ancestry once I knew the date of the marriage and that is how I found the page it should have been on. I was of the opinion that a copy of the register would be kept in the parish and a copy would be sent to the diocese. I sent to Yourfolks.com and they sent me a copy of the marriage. I can tell by the form that it came from a parish register. I don't know if Yourfolks scanned a different register (copy) or whether Ancestry just did a poor scan of this page in the register. But I was thrilled to get it. You can do free searches and you can also pay a small fee for a number of hits. I think I used some of the points I had to my credit for this service. Marriages are sorted by region so if sons and daughters married in the same region as the parents they will show up together. But you are right, they don't seem to tell you that the source used was parish registers. But those parish registers kept all the information on birth, death and marriage. I have the entire marriage record. I am working on a credit with NGIS in immigration and realized that the name of the parish is the one clue I have to trace this family back to Ireland. The other clue is that they required a dispensation to marry and I believe it would be because Mary's baptism records would be in Ireland and she married in Quebec. I have not as yet determined whether a copy of the dispensation request sent to the bishop would be available and have more information. Kathie -----Original Message----- From: Kith-n-Kin [mailto:Kith-n-Kin@cox.net] Sent: November-25-12 4:04 PM To: kfortner@sympatico.ca; transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [TGF] help with a record Kathie I'm confused. This record is a marriage record from Quebec, Canada? At first I thought it was from County Tipperary, Ireland. Apparently the reference reads something like "Mary Murphy daughter of Michael Murphy and ____ Ryan" [of] some place in County Tipperary, Ireland? If so, I'd suggest the "[P....]" is indeed the name of some parish, there would be no reason to identify the priest in this type of document. I just checked the Drouin Collection (at Ancestry.com) to see if they have this record, but came up empty. Curious to know more about the yourfolks.com website you mention. I couldn't find anywhere that they list their sources. Pat Dunford

Craig, your analysis is one I can agree with. If those of us who have been around for awhile can help newcomers appreciate the concepts of source, evidence and fact, and the relationships between them, without being condescending, we can introduce them to that spirit of collegiality that I have found characteristic of genealogists generally. One caution, however, for those of us with credentials: Recognize that they can be intimidating to a neophyte, and are best played down to avoid any suggestion of elitism, and to emphasize the cooperative spiritthat most of us find so rewarding. Donn Donn Devine, CG Wilmington, Delaware, USA CG and Certified Genealogist are service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants after periodic evaluation, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark Office. ______________ Craig wrote: Everyone was ______(insert appropriate term here)__________ in the beginning. For fifteen years I was alone in the wilderness and I did not understand source, much less evidence, but I had a lot of facts. But my house was built of cards on a foundation of sand. And then I learned that there were rules, but they were funny rules. They were rules you could chose to adhere to, or not. At first I stumbled among the petunias, but I found faith in myself and my ability. Misplaced as it might have been at the time. And then I gained courage, and I presented myself to the special people. And I found that my fear of them was misplaced. That they welcomed me, even with my arrogance and my bravado. And they helped me. And it was good. And I learned that genealogy is like the world, everything, almost, is a normal curve. That there are angels on one end and donkeys on the other, but that generally in the middle are people that help me and I help them, as I can. I avoid donkeys. They tend to be stubborn, kick a lot, and believe they are the angels. But you know the angels. The angels have a funny thought. They think we all should be angels. The donkeys, they are afraid of you. You are competition. The angels love competition, because it makes us all better. So when you think someone is being a donkey you have to examine the situation. Because what you think might be a donkey, really might be an angel helping you to become an angel. None of us is perfect, not even the angels. If you think you are perfect in your genealogy you might be a donkey in the making. You have to look at your palace and see if it really is a house of cards. Genealogy is a wide field of endeavor with millions of people with opinions about things. Among them are people with badges. The badges are unimportant to you. A badge does not grant anyone special powers. A badge does not make a donkey anything other than a donkey with a badge. Angels don't need badges, but they like to test themselves and keeping a badge is a good way to do that. But it does not make them a better angel. They are just an angel with a badge. And by definition, an angel does not know they are an angel. If they think they are an angel, by definition they are not. So my advice is that if you pay attention to the first two chapters, live by the words source, evidence and fact, and recognize the relationship that exists between them you will be fine. And the next time you are at a conference and you see a group of people that you think are people that understand the first two chapters really well, sit down and talk with them. And if they aren't having a meeting, you will be welcome. That meeting part is always a problem. But you will figure it out. This is by far the easiest group in the world to join. It let me be a member in 1985 and it helped to make me a better genealogist. So evaluate the criticisms. If they are donkey, chalk it up to mean spirit and move on. Dwelling on it just foolish, donkeys are every where. But if you can see their point then learn from it and move on a better genealogist. And that is what really counts, becoming a better genealogist. C.

It might be forgivable if the response was to write down "Netherlands". Writing "Holland" is an unforgivable faut pas. Tony Proctor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nancy Curran" <njcinnorland@yahoo.com> To: <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 10:49 PM Subject: [TGF] Germany or Holland origins? > Sample Q & A > > Q: what is your nationality? > > A: Deutsch > > Q: I see, so you are Dutch > > And writes down "Holland." > > > > > The Transitional Genealogists List was created to provide a supportive > environment for genealogists to learn best practices as they transition to > professional level work. Please respect the kind intentions of this list. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > TRANSITIONAL-GENEALOGISTS-FORUM-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message

Sample Q & A Q: what is your nationality? A: Deutsch Q: I see, so you are Dutch And writes down "Holland."

A huge thank you to Craig for creating a wonderful analogy which put a smile on my face for several hours today! Let's hope we can all strive to be angels rather than donkeys. Julie George fnjg@gvtc.com Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 09:31:46 -0500 From: "Craig R. Scott, CG" <crscott@HeritageBooks.com> Subject: Re: [TGF] Bad Karma, newcomers To: Kim Ostermyer <kim_ostermyer@yahoo.com> Cc: Transitional Genealogists forum <transitional-genealogists-forum@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <CA+hjQq4Aanh2cehjnyt66t4YGLA_oCMFoPjNjM6mp_reu6E5rQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Everyone was ______(insert appropriate term here)__________ in the beginning. For fifteen years I was alone in the wilderness and I did not understand source, much less evidence, but I had a lot of facts. But my house was built of cards on a foundation of sand. And then I learned that there were rules, but they were funny rules. They were rules you could chose to adhere to, or not. At first I stumbled among the petunias, but I found faith in myself and my ability. Misplaced as it might have been at the time. And then I gained courage, and I presented myself to the special people. And I found that my fear of them was misplaced. That they welcomed me, even with my arrogance and my bravado. And they helped me. And it was good. And I learned that genealogy is like the world, everything, almost, is a normal curve. That there are angels on one end and donkeys on the other, but that generally in the middle are people that help me and I help them, as I can. I avoid donkeys. They tend to be stubborn, kick a lot, and believe they are the angels. But you know the angels. The angels have a funny thought. They think we all should be angels. The donkeys, they are afraid of you. You are competition. The angels love competition, because it makes us all better. So when you think someone is being a donkey you have to examine the situation. Because what you think might be a donkey, really might be an angel helping you to become an angel. None of us is perfect, not even the angels. If you think you are perfect in your genealogy you might be a donkey in the making. You have to look at your palace and see if it really is a house of cards. Genealogy is a wide field of endeavor with millions of people with opinions about things. Among them are people with badges. The badges are unimportant to you. A badge does not grant anyone special powers. A badge does not make a donkey anything other than a donkey with a badge. Angels don't need badges, but they like to test themselves and keeping a badge is a good way to do that. But it does not make them a better angel. They are just an angel with a badge. And by definition, an angel does not know they are an angel. If they think they are an angel, by definition they are not. So my advice is that if you pay attention to the first two chapters, live by the words source, evidence and fact, and recognize the relationship that exists between them you will be fine. And the next time you are at a conference and you see a group of people that you think are people that understand the first two chapters really well, sit down and talk with them. And if they aren't having a meeting, you will be welcome. That meeting part is always a problem. But you will figure it out. This is by far the easiest group in the world to join. It let me be a member in 1985 and it helped to make me a better genealogist. So evaluate the criticisms. If they are donkey, chalk it up to mean spirit and move on. Dwelling on it just foolish, donkeys are every where. But if you can see their point then learn from it and move on a better genealogist. And that is what really counts, becoming a better genealogist. C.