Granted I have not looked at that many Kentucky tax lists, but those I'm viewing for Washington County, Kentucky, have something I've not seen in other tax lists. Each list is arranged in the usual way by first letter of last name. There is one list for the year for the entire county-- not divided by "captains" as I've seen in some. Along the left margins are dates ranging from May through September-- most being in May through July. There are not very many days represented in each month -- perhaps two or three, but sometimes only one. There are many names listed under each date, so each person is not individually dated. AND the dates are not in order. So you might have May 27 with a few names, and then June 10 with a few names. Then back to April 12 with a few names. Sometimes there is only one name associated with a date. I'm wondering how this might have been created, and wondered if anyone would know. I at first thought that entries were made spread out in order to allow additional entries. Then the scribe returned and filled in the gaps when he ran out of space. Would the groups of people on a particular date represent those who happened to come into a town on a particular date, or might he have been traveling about the countryside rating the land? If he was traveling perhaps those listed on the same dates in the various letters of surnames were living in the same general area. I have thought that a useful exercise might be to try to reconstruct the list as the assessor did to see if some logical reason springs to mind, but I thought I'd ask first if anyone already knows. ;-) Patti

Thanks to all who answered my questions regarding census as sources. I think what I was missing was the chance during analysis to give my reasons regarding how reliable I think the information might be. For example if one census contradicts another in the age category. Or for example on one census the subject's brother was the enumerator. Kathie On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 10:04 AM, eshown via < [email protected]> wrote: > Kathie, what a wonderful goal you've set for the new year. There is nothing > more important to our success as genealogists than skillfully evaluating > the > quality of our evidence. > > There are actually three separate considerations involved in your > questions: > sources, information, and evidence. The mantra that guides genealogists is > this: SOURCES give us INFORMATION, from which we derive EVIDENCE for > analysis. A sound conclusion may then be considered proof. > > Each of these three elements (sources, information, and evidence) come in > three forms that we need to weigh: > > SOURCES are either (a) original records, (b) derivative records, or (c) > narratives in which the writer has studied various materials and created an > original piece of writing in which s/he expresses conclusions. > > INFORMATION is either (a) primary--i.e., firsthand; (b) > secondary--secondhand; or (c) indeterminable--when the identity of the > informant is not known. > > EVIDENCE is either (a) direct--when it directly addresses the research > question; (b) indirect--when it doesn't directly address the research > question but is still relevant; or (c) negative--which is a bit too > complicated to go into here <g>. > > You'll find more in-depth discussion of all this in several of the > QuickLessons at EE's website: > > "QuickLesson 2: Sources vs. Information vs. Evidence vs. Proof." Evidence > Explained: Historical Analysis, > Citation & Source Usage. > > https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-2-sources-vs-informati > on-vs-evidence-vs-proof > > "QuickLesson 5: Analyzing Records." Evidence Explained: Historical > Analysis, > Citation & Source Usage. > https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/ > quicklesson-5-analyzing-records. > > "QuickLesson 8: What Constitutes Proof?" Evidence Explained: Historical > Analysis, Citation & Source > Usage. > > https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-8-what-constitutes-pro > of. > > "QuickLesson 13: Classes of Evidence-Direct, Indirect & Negative." Evidence > Explained: Historical > Analysis, Citation & Source Usage. > https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-13- > classes-evidence-direct-indirect-negative. > > HOWEVER, evidence analysis is not just a matter of applying the right > "label" to what we have. Rather, it's a matter of understanding the > strengths and weaknesses that each label represents and using these to > guide > us to the best quality evidence possible--so that we will not make > premature > conclusions that lead us astray for years. > > Elizabeth > > > --------------------------------------------- > Elizabeth Shown Mills, CG, CGL, FASG > www.HistoricPathways.com > www.EvidenceExplained.com > & for everyday tips on records and record usage: > https://www.evidenceexplained.com/quicktips/ee > www.Facebook.com/ForgottenPeopleCaneRiverCreoles > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Kathie Fortner via > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2015 6:41 AM > To: TGF List > Subject: [TGF] Census - Primary or Secondary > > I bought myself Evidentia Software for Christmas and am learning what I > don't know about documenting evidence. > > Am I right that evidence is primary if the person providing the information > has reason to know and secondary if someone other than the person involved > gave the information. > > So are census records primary if the person you are researching was an > adult > and alive at the time or is it secondary because you don't know for sure > who > gave the information to the census taker? > > -- > > * > Kathie Fortner* > * <[email protected]>* > > *www.fortner.50megs.com <http://www.fortner.50megs.com>* > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- * Kathie Fortner* * <[email protected]>* *www.fortner.50megs.com <http://www.fortner.50megs.com>*

Registration for four courses through the Virtual Institute of Genealogical Research are currently open. Visit http://vigrgenealogy.com/schedule/ for more information about these and other future courses. 24–31 January 2015: J. Mark Lowe, CG, FUGA, “Preparing the Field: Understanding the Agricultural Records of our Ancestors” Most researchers have at least one ancestor who practiced the ancient science of Agriculture (i.e. Farmers), or provided related services. The records created about these ancestors can help us paint a clearer picture of the Agricultural efforts of this ancestor, his neighbors, and the larger community. This course will outline the records that exist, provide hands-on activity using these records, and provide the steps to build a profile of the researched individual. Farming is more than tilling the soil or raising cattle. While using available resources, students will learn how to collect and develop a profile for a farm family. We will learn what tasks or procedures were required to raise crops or livestock to market. Assignments will help students see how the resources fit together, and be able to discuss a complete farm profile. Students will be given a reading assignment for preparation and several hands-on activities to reinforce their understanding. 21–28 February 2015: Maureen Taylor, “Family Photographs: Identifying, Preserving, and Sharing Your Visual Heritage” Family photograph collections come in all sizes and shapes. It’s possible that a single photo can unlock a genealogical mystery if you know what to look for and how to examine the evidence. Taking care of those precious images is simple if you understand the do’s and don’ts of photo care and storage. It’s natural to want to share what you’ve learned about your family history including your pictures, but it’s important to be aware of how to share images on the internet and the best places to do so. This course introduces basic photo identification from types of pictures to fashion clues as well as common sense photo preservation strategies. The final lecture explores websites for joining the online photo community. 23 February, 2 March, 9 March, and 16 March 2015: F. Warren Bittner, CG, “Reading German I: The ABCs of Gothic” F. Warren Bittner, CG, is a genealogical researcher and lecturer. He is a trustee for the Board for Certification of Genealogists. He holds a Master of Science degree in history from Utah State University. His master’s thesis looked at the social factors affecting illegitimacy in nineteenth-century Bavaria. He has coordinated German research tracks at the Samford University’s Institute of Genealogy and Historical Research in Birmingham, Alabama, and the Salt Lake Institute of Genealogy. For six years he was the German Collection Manager for the Family History Library in Salt Lake City. He has done research in more than fifty German archives and in more than forty U.S. archives and record repositories. 7–14 March 2015: Donna Moughty, “Strategies for Finding Your Irish Ancestors” Success in Irish research is highly dependent on discovering the exact location in Ireland of ones ancestors and typically clues to the location are in records in the United States (or other country where they settled). Although researching in Ireland can be a wonderful experience, research at home is key to successfully identifying your Irish ancestor. In the first session we’ll identify the problems inherent in Irish research due to the destruction of records in the Public Records Office fire in 1922, as well as the government’s destruction of census records. We’ll define the administrative districts of Ireland and the records kept within each jurisdiction and look at the types of records in North American that can help identify your ancestor’s place of origin. The subsequent sessions will look at other record groups, both online and off, to continue your research in Ireland. The focus will be on major collections such as civil registration, land and tax records, and church records. In each case, strategies for effectively utilizing these records will be presented. Because of Irish naming patterns there are frequently multiple people of the same name living in the same area. The assignments for this course will focus on strategies for using multiple resources to identify your specific ancestor. Michael Hait, CG(sm) [email protected] http://www.haitfamilyresearch.com Author of *Online State Resources for Genealogy* ebook More information at http://haitfamilyresearch.com/onlineStates.htm CG and Certified Genealogist are service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants after periodic competency evaluation, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark Office.

The Council for the Advancement of Forensic Genealogy is pleased to announce that the latest edition of "Forensic Genealogy News" is now available. Highlights of this issue include: - Update on the 2015 Forensic Genealogy Institute (seats are filling fast!) - Overcoming the Scammer Fear To access the latest edition of the newsletter, please click on the following link: http://www.forensicgenealogists.org/resources/newsletter/ Happy New Year! Bethany Waterbury Next of Kin Research CAFG "Forensic Genealogy News" Editor

Kathie, what a wonderful goal you've set for the new year. There is nothing more important to our success as genealogists than skillfully evaluating the quality of our evidence. There are actually three separate considerations involved in your questions: sources, information, and evidence. The mantra that guides genealogists is this: SOURCES give us INFORMATION, from which we derive EVIDENCE for analysis. A sound conclusion may then be considered proof. Each of these three elements (sources, information, and evidence) come in three forms that we need to weigh: SOURCES are either (a) original records, (b) derivative records, or (c) narratives in which the writer has studied various materials and created an original piece of writing in which s/he expresses conclusions. INFORMATION is either (a) primary--i.e., firsthand; (b) secondary--secondhand; or (c) indeterminable--when the identity of the informant is not known. EVIDENCE is either (a) direct--when it directly addresses the research question; (b) indirect--when it doesn't directly address the research question but is still relevant; or (c) negative--which is a bit too complicated to go into here <g>. You'll find more in-depth discussion of all this in several of the QuickLessons at EE's website: "QuickLesson 2: Sources vs. Information vs. Evidence vs. Proof." Evidence Explained: Historical Analysis, Citation & Source Usage. https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-2-sources-vs-informati on-vs-evidence-vs-proof "QuickLesson 5: Analyzing Records." Evidence Explained: Historical Analysis, Citation & Source Usage. https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/ quicklesson-5-analyzing-records. "QuickLesson 8: What Constitutes Proof?" Evidence Explained: Historical Analysis, Citation & Source Usage. https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-8-what-constitutes-pro of. "QuickLesson 13: Classes of Evidence-Direct, Indirect & Negative." Evidence Explained: Historical Analysis, Citation & Source Usage. https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-13- classes-evidence-direct-indirect-negative. HOWEVER, evidence analysis is not just a matter of applying the right "label" to what we have. Rather, it's a matter of understanding the strengths and weaknesses that each label represents and using these to guide us to the best quality evidence possible--so that we will not make premature conclusions that lead us astray for years. Elizabeth --------------------------------------------- Elizabeth Shown Mills, CG, CGL, FASG www.HistoricPathways.com www.EvidenceExplained.com & for everyday tips on records and record usage: https://www.evidenceexplained.com/quicktips/ee www.Facebook.com/ForgottenPeopleCaneRiverCreoles -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Kathie Fortner via Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2015 6:41 AM To: TGF List Subject: [TGF] Census - Primary or Secondary I bought myself Evidentia Software for Christmas and am learning what I don't know about documenting evidence. Am I right that evidence is primary if the person providing the information has reason to know and secondary if someone other than the person involved gave the information. So are census records primary if the person you are researching was an adult and alive at the time or is it secondary because you don't know for sure who gave the information to the census taker? -- * Kathie Fortner* * <[email protected]>* *www.fortner.50megs.com <http://www.fortner.50megs.com>* ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Kathie -- Happy New Year! The short answers to your 2 questions are No and No ;-) Long answers: We think of *information* as either primary (it came from someone with firsthand knowledge, not just "reason to know") or secondary (it came from someone else who probably knew it only by hearsay), or undetermined (we don't know who provided the information, for instance, most US census returns prior to 1940.) "Evidence," in genealogical lingo, does not exist until we ask a particular question about the information. Evidence is all information that can help answer our question (so it's a mental thing) -- whatever is relevant. It can be direct (providing an answer to the question all by itself, whether that answer is right or wrong), or indirect (hinting at an answer in various ways -- I'll have a few of them at the APG PMC poster session next week in Salt Lake City), or negative (an absence of relevant information). I have not used Evidentia, but the most readily available information on this topic is also the most up-to-date, the most visual, and the most authoritative, over at Elizabeth Shown Mills's Evidence Explained website: https://www.evidenceexplained.com/content/quicklesson-17-evidence-analysis-process-map Hope this helps . . . it can take a while to get comfortable with this terminology, but I find it very useful as long as I don't think my job is done when I find some primary information that provides direct evidence about my question. Those labels give us a place to start, but only that. They do not guarantee that the evidence gives a true answer to our question. Harold Harold Henderson, CG midwestroots.net *Finding Ancestors in Fort Wayne: The Genealogist's Unofficial One-Stop Guide to the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center * http://www.midwestroots.net/ <http://www.midwestroots.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ACPLGC-April-2013.pdf> Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists® used by the Board to identify its program of genealogical competency evaluation and used under license by the Board’s associates. On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 6:40 AM, Kathie Fortner via < [email protected]> wrote: > I bought myself Evidentia Software for Christmas and am learning what I > don't know about documenting evidence. > > Am I right that evidence is primary if the person providing the information > has reason to know and secondary if someone other than the person involved > gave the information. > > So are census records primary if the person you are researching was an > adult and alive at the time or is it secondary because you don't know for > sure who gave the information to the census taker? > > -- > > * > Kathie Fortner* > * <[email protected]>* > > *www.fortner.50megs.com <http://www.fortner.50megs.com>* > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I bought myself Evidentia Software for Christmas and am learning what I don't know about documenting evidence. Am I right that evidence is primary if the person providing the information has reason to know and secondary if someone other than the person involved gave the information. So are census records primary if the person you are researching was an adult and alive at the time or is it secondary because you don't know for sure who gave the information to the census taker? -- * Kathie Fortner* * <[email protected]>* *www.fortner.50megs.com <http://www.fortner.50megs.com>*

Dee -- Thank you for that eye-opener. That could be your saying -- "It just is" -- since Tom Jones has already taken "It depends." -- Harold Harold Henderson, CG midwestroots.net *Finding Ancestors in Fort Wayne: The Genealogist's Unofficial One-Stop Guide to the Allen County Public Library Genealogy Center * http://www.midwestroots.net/ <http://www.midwestroots.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/ACPLGC-April-2013.pdf> Certified Genealogist (SM) No. 1029 Certified Genealogist and CG are proprietary service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists® used by the Board to identify its program of genealogical competency evaluation and used under license by the Board’s associates. On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 9:49 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > There is a mineral rights case in Zapata County TX in which right at 3,000 > plaintiffs are named. Perhaps a year after the judge declared for the > plaintiffs, an older family member named in the case - and a pretty good > amateur > genealogist - met with me. She showed where about 300 of the names were > spouses > of heirs, but not legal heirs. Approximately 65 were deceased well before > the > suit was filed, with no mention of them being deceased. Nor was the "heirs > and > assigns" language in the document. That declaration of heirship is filled > with > "legal fiction." I looked for the case file for the cause number, but this > client work is so old that it must be in storage. > > Ten years ago I focused my business on forensic genealogy. My thoughts > were - > it's the law, it will be all black and white. Pfffft. Far from it. A > probate > attorney email list I monitor is filled with contradictory advice from > some of > the top probate attorneys in the state, examples of case law that don't > seem to > agree, examples of how something in the family code conflicts with > something in > the probate code, and occasionally requests for advice for how the current > attorney on a case can clean up a mess created by the previous attorney. > > Jokes to the contrary, attorneys and judges are human. Not all of them > are as > educated as others, not all are as industrious as others, not all are as > ethical > as others. They make mistakes, they misinterpret, details can slip past > them, > and sometimes they take what they have and just punt. It's called > "arguing" > because it's recognized that there are differing opinions and laws that may > apply. And that's why there are appeals courts. > > Sometimes when we see things like this in genealogy, the answer seems to > be - it > just is. As Michael Ramage pointed out, you can't legally sue a dead > person (as > determined by jurisdiction). But dead people do get named in suits. We can > research all the laws and possibilities. But, was it lack of knowledge of > death, > an interpretation of the law, a typo that wasn't removed, or a long punt? > Sometimes the answer is - it just is. > > Dee > > > On December 31, 2014 at 6:38 AM Billie Elias via > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Sharon, > > I'm no lawyer, but about 20 years ago I was a juror on an asbestos trial. > > There were 4 plaintiffs who had been harmed by exposure to asbestos, 2 of > > whom were deceased. > > > > So, Sharon, I believe the answer is yes, at least in more current years. > It > > is possible that laws could have changed since the era of interest to > you. > > > > Billie Elias > > www.genealogygal.wordpress.com > > -- > Dee Dee King, Certified Genealogist (sm), Certificate 903 > Forensic Genealogy Services LLC > Contract Genealogist, US Navy POW/MIA Branch > > Mail address - PO Box 1085, Manvel TX 77578 > Telephone/fax 281-595-3090 > www.forensicgenealogyservices.com www.facebook.com/forensicgenealogist > > Certified Genealogist (CG) is a service mark (sm) of the Board for > Certification > of Genealogists®, conferred to > associates who consistently meet ethical and competency standards in > accord with > peer-reviewed evaluations every > five years, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark > Office. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There is a mineral rights case in Zapata County TX in which right at 3,000 plaintiffs are named. Perhaps a year after the judge declared for the plaintiffs, an older family member named in the case - and a pretty good amateur genealogist - met with me. She showed where about 300 of the names were spouses of heirs, but not legal heirs. Approximately 65 were deceased well before the suit was filed, with no mention of them being deceased. Nor was the "heirs and assigns" language in the document. That declaration of heirship is filled with "legal fiction." I looked for the case file for the cause number, but this client work is so old that it must be in storage. Ten years ago I focused my business on forensic genealogy. My thoughts were - it's the law, it will be all black and white. Pfffft. Far from it. A probate attorney email list I monitor is filled with contradictory advice from some of the top probate attorneys in the state, examples of case law that don't seem to agree, examples of how something in the family code conflicts with something in the probate code, and occasionally requests for advice for how the current attorney on a case can clean up a mess created by the previous attorney. Jokes to the contrary, attorneys and judges are human. Not all of them are as educated as others, not all are as industrious as others, not all are as ethical as others. They make mistakes, they misinterpret, details can slip past them, and sometimes they take what they have and just punt. It's called "arguing" because it's recognized that there are differing opinions and laws that may apply. And that's why there are appeals courts. Sometimes when we see things like this in genealogy, the answer seems to be - it just is. As Michael Ramage pointed out, you can't legally sue a dead person (as determined by jurisdiction). But dead people do get named in suits. We can research all the laws and possibilities. But, was it lack of knowledge of death, an interpretation of the law, a typo that wasn't removed, or a long punt? Sometimes the answer is - it just is. Dee > On December 31, 2014 at 6:38 AM Billie Elias via > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Sharon, > I'm no lawyer, but about 20 years ago I was a juror on an asbestos trial. > There were 4 plaintiffs who had been harmed by exposure to asbestos, 2 of > whom were deceased. > > So, Sharon, I believe the answer is yes, at least in more current years. It > is possible that laws could have changed since the era of interest to you. > > Billie Elias > www.genealogygal.wordpress.com -- Dee Dee King, Certified Genealogist (sm), Certificate 903 Forensic Genealogy Services LLC Contract Genealogist, US Navy POW/MIA Branch Mail address - PO Box 1085, Manvel TX 77578 Telephone/fax 281-595-3090 www.forensicgenealogyservices.com www.facebook.com/forensicgenealogist Certified Genealogist (CG) is a service mark (sm) of the Board for Certification of Genealogists®, conferred to associates who consistently meet ethical and competency standards in accord with peer-reviewed evaluations every five years, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark Office.

Sharon, I'm no lawyer, but about 20 years ago I was a juror on an asbestos trial. There were 4 plaintiffs who had been harmed by exposure to asbestos, 2 of whom were deceased. So, Sharon, I believe the answer is yes, at least in more current years. It is possible that laws could have changed since the era of interest to you. Billie Elias www.genealogygal.wordpress.com On Dec 29, 2014 12:28 PM, "sharon via" < [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > I have questions regarding California civil dispute in Fresno Superior > Court in 1952 before Judge Popovich, according to a 1952 article in the > Fresno Bee newspaper. I don't know the case name but it was probably > something like Katherine M. Atwood (first named plaintiff--I don't know > who she was), et al vs. Mrs. Commilla Elwood, et al. I don't know the > disposition of the case. It probably was not a case of record (not > published in any court reporter). > The article named as plaintiffs deceased descendants (including my great > grandmother, who died in 1933) of a deceased > man, George Wiseman (1837-1909), who in 1899 helped to discover oil in > Kern River and whose descendants would have been entitled to receive > royalties from oil company shares were they living. > The defendant, Mrs. Commilla Elwood, was the spouse of another deceased > man, Burton Elwood, who helped > to discover the oil, and in 1939 all the discovers pooled their shares and > assigned them to Burton in trust that he would make appropriate > distributions, which he did. However, at his death his wife said the trust > arrangement was good only during his lifetime and that she need not > distribute any > royalties to the others. > Of George Wiseman's entitled descendants only two were living in 1952, but > others, including my great grandmother, were named as plaintiffs. > 1. Can deceased descendants be named plaintiffs in a lawsuit? > 2. I suppose if I wrote Fresno County Superior > Court I could gain information about the complaints and responses, and > disposition, right? > Sharon Whitney > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Brandt, That's a hard question. Can you send me some examples of these postcards? They may just be commercially driven and not meant to be anything genealogical. Sincerely, Melanie D. Holtz, CG Holtz Research Services [email protected] www.holtzresearch.com > On Dec 30, 2014, at 8:34 PM, Brandt Gibson via <[email protected]> wrote: > > Can anyone suggest where I might find information about an Italian book publisher named G. Cecchi & Son of Florence, Italy around 1872-1910? A client has a book of Italian postcards (mostly religious) and I want to see if it's genealogically relevant or just something interesting an ancestor purchased somewhere. > > Thanks, > Brandt Gibson > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can anyone suggest where I might find information about an Italian book publisher named G. Cecchi & Son of Florence, Italy around 1872-1910? A client has a book of Italian postcards (mostly religious) and I want to see if it's genealogically relevant or just something interesting an ancestor purchased somewhere. Thanks, Brandt Gibson

And the lawyers who didn't do it right can be a reason qualified forensic genealogists get hired to straighten out the genealogy. :-) Dee > On December 30, 2014 at 8:01 AM Michael Ramage via > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Sharon asked: "1. Can deceased descendants be named plaintiffs in a > lawsuit?" > > In most states in the U.S., one cannot leally sue someone that is deceased > unless they raise an estate for the deceased person. This is because a dead > person is no longer a legal person that can be sued. I have seen this trip > up some plaintiffs' lawyers who had their lawsuits (that they filed just > before the statute of limitations ran) dismissed (they were guilty of > malpractice for not knowing the law). > > When a quiet title lawsuit is filed to attempt to clear title on real > estate, mineral rights, oil & gas etc., one does still see the known > defendants (usually the last owners of record who are usually long deceased > and their already known kin) being named with words such as "their heirs and > assigns" as a catch-all phrase. Whether that is legal to extinguish the > legal rights of the unnamed heirs is a constitutional question that may be > answered differently in the various jurisdictions at different time periods. > [Due diligence required to locate missing and unknown owners or their > heirs. Deer Park Lumber, Inc. v. Major, 348 Pa.Super. 625, 559 A.2d 941 > (1989). This is so that proper notice of the action may be given to > interested parties as required by due process of law. Peralta v. Heights > Med. Ctr., Inc., 485 U.S. 80 (1988).] > > Michael > > This email is from: > Michael S. Ramage, J.D., Certified Genealogist(SM) > Locating Heirs Professionally, Legally and Ethically > 720 Argyle Road > Wynnewood, PA 19096 > (484) 437-8827 > [email protected] > http://www.ForensicGenealogist.Pro

Sharon asked: "1. Can deceased descendants be named plaintiffs in a lawsuit?" In most states in the U.S., one cannot leally sue someone that is deceased unless they raise an estate for the deceased person. This is because a dead person is no longer a legal person that can be sued. I have seen this trip up some plaintiffs' lawyers who had their lawsuits (that they filed just before the statute of limitations ran) dismissed (they were guilty of malpractice for not knowing the law). When a quiet title lawsuit is filed to attempt to clear title on real estate, mineral rights, oil & gas etc., one does still see the known defendants (usually the last owners of record who are usually long deceased and their already known kin) being named with words such as "their heirs and assigns" as a catch-all phrase. Whether that is legal to extinguish the legal rights of the unnamed heirs is a constitutional question that may be answered differently in the various jurisdictions at different time periods. [Due diligence required to locate missing and unknown owners or their heirs. Deer Park Lumber, Inc. v. Major, 348 Pa.Super. 625, 559 A.2d 941 (1989). This is so that proper notice of the action may be given to interested parties as required by due process of law. Peralta v. Heights Med. Ctr., Inc., 485 U.S. 80 (1988).] Michael This email is from: Michael S. Ramage, J.D., Certified Genealogist(SM) Locating Heirs Professionally, Legally and Ethically 720 Argyle Road Wynnewood, PA 19096 (484) 437-8827 [email protected] http://www.ForensicGenealogist.Pro On December 30, 2014 at 3:01 AM [email protected] wrote: Today's Topics: 1. Legal Question: Can deceased descendants be named in a lawsuit as plaintiffs? ([email protected]) 2. Re: Legal Question: Can deceased descendants be named in a lawsuit as plaintiffs? (Patricia Hobbs) 3. Re: Legal Question: Can deceased descendants be named in a lawsuit as plaintiffs? (Dee Dee King, Certified Genealogist) 4. FW: LAST CHANCE to Register for PMC (Elissa Scalise Powell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 09:18:42 -0800 From: [email protected] Subject: [TGF] Legal Question: Can deceased descendants be named in a lawsuit as plaintiffs? To: "transitional-genealogists-forum" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, I have questions regarding California civil dispute in Fresno Superior Court in 1952 before Judge Popovich, according to a 1952 article in the Fresno Bee newspaper. I don't know the case name but it was probably something like Katherine M. Atwood (first named plaintiff--I don't know who she was), et al vs. Mrs. Commilla Elwood, et al. I don't know the disposition of the case. It probably was not a case of record (not published in any court reporter). The article? named as plaintiffs deceased descendants (including my great grandmother, who died in 1933) of a deceased man, George Wiseman (1837-1909), who in 1899 helped to discover oil in Kern River and whose descendants would have been entitled to receive royalties from oil company shares were they living. The defendant, Mrs. Commilla Elwood, was the spouse of another deceased man, Burton Elwood, who helped to discover the oil, and in 1939 all the discovers pooled their shares and assigned them to Burton in trust that he would make appropriate distributions, which he did. However, at his death his wife said the trust arrangement was good only during his lifetime and that she need not distribute any royalties to the others. Of George Wiseman's entitled descendants only two were living in 1952, but others, including my great grandmother, were named as plaintiffs. 1. Can deceased descendants be named plaintiffs in a lawsuit? 2.? I suppose if I wrote Fresno County Superior Court I could gain information about the complaints and responses, and disposition, right? Sharon Whitney ? ? ? ? ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 12:50:35 -0600 From: Patricia Hobbs <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [TGF] Legal Question: Can deceased descendants be named in a lawsuit as plaintiffs? To: sharon <[email protected]> Cc: transitional-genealogists-forum <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]om> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Yes, you should order the file. I haven't seen a newer case involving deceased plaintiffs, but I have seen a court case in 1804 that involved a deceased defendant. I figured they hoped his estate would pay the debt. I ordered a court file from Santa Clara Superior Court, but I called them first to determine the process. I know they required a letter, but I don't remember if they told me how much copying would cost and thus I included payment at the same time. I had a case file number also because that it what was entered on the Missouri birth certificate which allowed a change in birth year. Patti On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:18 AM, sharon via < [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > I have questions regarding California civil dispute in Fresno Superior > Court in 1952 before Judge Popovich, according to a 1952 article in the > Fresno Bee newspaper. I don't know the case name but it was probably > something like Katherine M. Atwood (first named plaintiff--I don't know > who she was), et al vs. Mrs. Commilla Elwood, et al. I don't know the > disposition of the case. It probably was not a case of record (not > published in any court reporter). > The article named as plaintiffs deceased descendants (including my great > grandmother, who died in 1933) of a deceased > man, George Wiseman (1837-1909), who in 1899 helped to discover oil in > Kern River and whose descendants would have been entitled to receive > royalties from oil company shares were they living. > The defendant, Mrs. Commilla Elwood, was the spouse of another deceased > man, Burton Elwood, who helped > to discover the oil, and in 1939 all the discovers pooled their shares and > assigned them to Burton in trust that he would make appropriate > distributions, which he did. However, at his death his wife said the trust > arrangement was good only during his lifetime and that she need not > distribute any > royalties to the others. > Of George Wiseman's entitled descendants only two were living in 1952, but > others, including my great grandmother, were named as plaintiffs. > 1. Can deceased descendants be named plaintiffs in a lawsuit? > 2. I suppose if I wrote Fresno County Superior > Court I could gain information about the complaints and responses, and > disposition, right? > Sharon Whitney > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 13:19:06 -0600 (CST) From: "Dee Dee King, Certified Genealogist" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [TGF] Legal Question: Can deceased descendants be named in a lawsuit as plaintiffs? To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]et> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I'm sure Judy will chime in, but... I've seen several cases like this, especially in mineral royalties or land quiet title. They use the known names; there may not be evidence or knowledge that the subjects are now deceased. Sometimes they add stuff like "Jane Doe, or her heirs" in the original to cover bases. The suit is adjusted as the status of subjects becomes known during the discovery process. My experience has been there are several kinds of adjustments - Jane Doe, Estate of, etc. Dee - - - Dee Dee King, Certified Genealogist (sm), Certificate 903 Contract Genealogist, US Navy POW/MIA Branch Mail address - PO Box 1085, Manvel TX 77578 Telephone/fax 281-595-3090 www.forensicgenealogyservices.com www.facebook.com/forensicgenealogist Certified Genealogist (CG) is a service mark (sm) of the Board for Certification of Genealogists?, conferred to associates who consistently meet ethical and competency standards in accord with peer-reviewed evaluations every five years, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark Office. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 16:09:08 -0500 From: "Elissa Scalise Powell" <[email protected]> Subject: [TGF] FW: LAST CHANCE to Register for PMC To: "'TGF'" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I thought you all would be interested in the topics that the Association of Professional Genealogists is having at their conference. With the virtual option, the old reason that you cannot travel has been mitigated. This list is dedicated to the person who wants to transition into professional genealogy. This conference is geared directly to that purpose. Will you be there or ?be there?? -- Elissa Elissa Scalise Powell, CG , CGL www.PowellGenealogy.com <http://www.powellgenealogy.com/> www.GRIPitt.org <http://www.gripitt.org/> 28 June-3 July 2015 and 19-24 July 2015 in Pittsburgh, PA CG, Certified Genealogist, CGL, and Certified Genealogical Lecturer are service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants after periodic evaluations. The board name is a trademark registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. From: APG Executive Director [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, December 29, 2014 12:40 PM To: Elissa Scalise Powell Subject: LAST CHANCE to Register for PMC <http://www.apgen.org/common/email/logo_banner.gif> LAST CHANCE to Register for PMC Tomorrow -- Tuesday, 30 December 2014 -- is the last day to register for the live PMC online. And don't forget that Virtual PMC registration ends in just a week, on Tuesday, 6 January 2015. REGISTER TODAY FOR PMC Attend APG's Professional Management Conference in person on 8-9 January 2015 at the Hilton Salt Lake City Center. Registration to the 2-day conference includes: - 15 breakout sessions designed for professionals and taught by industry experts - $139 in sponsor gifts for each attendee - Keynote by Ancestry CEO Tim Sullivan - The first-annual PMC Poster Sessions - APG's annual meeting on Thursday - Complimentary APG reception on Friday evening - Valuable door prizes, networking opportunities, and much more! Register for PMC 2015 at www.apgen.org/conferences <http://www.apgen.org/conferences> . Online registration ends tomorrow -- Tuesday, 30 December 2014. Registration will also be available at the door. VIRTUAL PMC -- Registration Ends 6 January 2015 You can take part in the PMC experience, even if you cant make it to Salt Lake. Virtual PMC 2015 offers TWO days -- 9 total sessions -- of PMC classes streamed live to your computer or mobile device. All Virtual PMC attendees are automatically entered to win a 1-year Ancestry World Deluxe subscription. Access to individual sessions begins at just $20, and the full virtual conference is $145. 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Beidler - "How to Have Difficult Conversations with Clients and Colleagues," Christina Grover - "Time Management: Successfully Balancing the Demands of Our Many 'Clients,'" Angela Packer McGhie - "Genealogy Professionals Needed: Help Adoptees Discover Their Genealogical Roots with DNA" (2-hour workshop), CeCe Moore Visit www.apgen.org/conferences/classes.html <http://www.apgen.org/conferences/classes.html> for class descriptions and speaker bios. All registrations include 3-months' access to recordings of the same sessions. 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I thought you all would be interested in the topics that the Association of Professional Genealogists is having at their conference. With the virtual option, the old reason that you cannot travel has been mitigated. This list is dedicated to the person who wants to transition into professional genealogy. This conference is geared directly to that purpose. Will you be there or “be there”? -- Elissa Elissa Scalise Powell, CG , CGL www.PowellGenealogy.com <http://www.powellgenealogy.com/> www.GRIPitt.org <http://www.gripitt.org/> 28 June-3 July 2015 and 19-24 July 2015 in Pittsburgh, PA CG, Certified Genealogist, CGL, and Certified Genealogical Lecturer are service marks of the Board for Certification of Genealogists, used under license by board certificants after periodic evaluations. The board name is a trademark registered in the US Patent and Trademark Office. From: APG Executive Director [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, December 29, 2014 12:40 PM To: Elissa Scalise Powell Subject: LAST CHANCE to Register for PMC <http://www.apgen.org/common/email/logo_banner.gif> LAST CHANCE to Register for PMC Tomorrow -- Tuesday, 30 December 2014 -- is the last day to register for the live PMC online. And don't forget that Virtual PMC registration ends in just a week, on Tuesday, 6 January 2015. REGISTER TODAY FOR PMC Attend APG's Professional Management Conference in person on 8-9 January 2015 at the Hilton Salt Lake City Center. Registration to the 2-day conference includes: - 15 breakout sessions designed for professionals and taught by industry experts - $139 in sponsor gifts for each attendee - Keynote by Ancestry CEO Tim Sullivan - The first-annual PMC Poster Sessions - APG's annual meeting on Thursday - Complimentary APG reception on Friday evening - Valuable door prizes, networking opportunities, and much more! Register for PMC 2015 at www.apgen.org/conferences <http://www.apgen.org/conferences> . Online registration ends tomorrow -- Tuesday, 30 December 2014. Registration will also be available at the door. VIRTUAL PMC -- Registration Ends 6 January 2015 You can take part in the PMC experience, even if you cant make it to Salt Lake. Virtual PMC 2015 offers TWO days -- 9 total sessions -- of PMC classes streamed live to your computer or mobile device. All Virtual PMC attendees are automatically entered to win a 1-year Ancestry World Deluxe subscription. Access to individual sessions begins at just $20, and the full virtual conference is $145. Register today at <https://u198667.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=8DwKEZBrhTXOI-2F3xrh-2Fbb5SvSGDl4IWBnpFfum2wEM82P9Lzvi-2B65RJSTWMYRTRv_uv59-2Fu-2FwlRS-2Fu4RhTJ5fbBMjj2HA3dom727f0uYmF2CaenAikYae7-2BOkM-2FVNpmEQciafNwHbru9SQ5pC6Wn0vnCC5gbUPKjGMvQqwNVcfWObAGpeK03dyeCf6HtjUj4JpX7U8n8IkRCRUoIliDmW05ZhAyzR1eMds1CxXd054Dr7fFuAnUg-2Faz6qcxlUDMOOANIkys-2FuJY7lE9NFAVPxqJ91WZBTkUtxQBVHsuKPtk4-3D> https://virtualpmc2015.eventbrite.com, where you can also view all pricing bundles. But hurry -- VPMC registration ends Tuesday, 6 January 2015. The 2015 Virtual PMC line up is: Thursday, 8 January 2015 - "Taxes and the Professional Genealogist," James M. Beidler - "Finding the Law," Judy Russell, JD, CG, CGL - "Mind Maps for Genealogy," Ron Arons, MBA - "DNA and Genealogical Proof," Angie Bush, MS Friday, 9 January 2015 - "Get Paid for Your Passion: Setting Fees," Elissa Scalise Powell, CG, CGL - "Finding Your Niche: Matching Passion, Professionalism & Pecuniary Interest," James M. Beidler - "How to Have Difficult Conversations with Clients and Colleagues," Christina Grover - "Time Management: Successfully Balancing the Demands of Our Many 'Clients,'" Angela Packer McGhie - "Genealogy Professionals Needed: Help Adoptees Discover Their Genealogical Roots with DNA" (2-hour workshop), CeCe Moore Visit www.apgen.org/conferences/classes.html <http://www.apgen.org/conferences/classes.html> for class descriptions and speaker bios. All registrations include 3-months' access to recordings of the same sessions. Register now for Virtual PMC 2015 at <https://u198667.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=8DwKEZBrhTXOI-2F3xrh-2Fbb5SvSGDl4IWBnpFfum2wEM82P9Lzvi-2B65RJSTWMYRTRv_uv59-2Fu-2FwlRS-2Fu4RhTJ5fbBMjj2HA3dom727f0uYmF2CaenAikYae7-2BOkM-2FVNpmEQciafNwHbru9SQ5pC6Wn0vrD6KWd-2FIRyKRoIQIXfiglUzHGSWkf9eUBOJmLw29rYbn7SsEnRvIGEzt-2FF-2FtPAlteckcYHCk7pt5MT9uMZRIfn-2FtIkCZ2Q-2FVS1JRhTTfkFDCxJB8vuZ05B1I6c-2FKW5-2B4UYmSE9RVOJZCmtTUCfyB3w-3D> https://virtualpmc2015.eventbrite.com <https://u198667.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=911UB8bzRmy6iFAh8al02vKY-2BAN2l7SF-2FqLL83u9DFiCIYbucBvn56tCIY1egw0V_uv59-2Fu-2FwlRS-2Fu4RhTJ5fbBMjj2HA3dom727f0uYmF2CaenAikYae7-2BOkM-2FVNpmEQciafNwHbru9SQ5pC6Wn0vq8SS0eBaH-2F4b87awWgoBq9O87LSYaCOnnWOLpFL4c295hP-2BbAWJiuqQLSBr88HiGiseEM8j8kY1AqLqO-2F1AX8RDVCKe48XH5-2BIIwsfL3kdKfIp6xaJY-2Fs0btL1ojPngo1UobZhJaXOd79-2FDWCM5bhg-3D> Twitter | <https://u198667.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=haCP8z6V9CxSoS8yzPxGwfkLJV0FFUwkqkqcSq5fEUpNXx0giu-2Bc4138PRIrn7LvLyjqK86aR-2FAZMkPWkhd-2BJPc-2Blq6wzTUUpZAdpAsN4B4-3D_uv59-2Fu-2FwlRS-2Fu4RhTJ5fbBMjj2HA3dom727f0uYmF2CaenAikYae7-2BOkM-2FVNpmEQciafNwHbru9SQ5pC6Wn0vkHY-2FQ7DXWNMw5WAIMcNbYBQB-2FoAdzI4-2FmD3nEWKQl6UFt-2FTRUX99tTfl4hWJ-2B4uEiLKSvyTa-2FXRaslQ0bxKGfvEmdsItHHsvfNCPPh-2Fzwil-2Bl2cEmhRUEE1qCmh1qesAWu3CKO3fbkmVQHqzh6-2Be5E-3D> Facebook | <https://u198667.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/click?upn=haCP8z6V9CxSoS8yzPxGwcLDCh-2BxWFR8QzvV-2F6fVwmXiT04NGebTR2ffKyaVO7mhftUWTNjmz9bvYaxSqroqY-2B5hZObvl5xPmB0KNCpi9JciqxGHw6CV5YPo3G-2FxOOBW_uv59-2Fu-2FwlRS-2Fu4RhTJ5fbBMjj2HA3dom727f0uYmF2CaenAikYae7-2BOkM-2FVNpmEQciafNwHbru9SQ5pC6Wn0vpI0wMMk-2BzGQvbznSg3r6WdaqrDc2f9W-2Bog6e5fc0LrdLMa4aqq0NPeaYH3UbApnAiBF9hP6t2aLNKhRMB4e3Pm5uhh8fXIqN0SE9On8BXDme4YKP-2BeGqnRQpBaMGiG49r1aNeqUCgepLQWw-2Bz2bGCE-3D> LinkedIn Copyright © 2014 Association of Professional Genealogists, All rights reserved. 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I'm sure Judy will chime in, but... I've seen several cases like this, especially in mineral royalties or land quiet title. They use the known names; there may not be evidence or knowledge that the subjects are now deceased. Sometimes they add stuff like "Jane Doe, or her heirs" in the original to cover bases. The suit is adjusted as the status of subjects becomes known during the discovery process. My experience has been there are several kinds of adjustments - Jane Doe, Estate of, etc. Dee - - - Dee Dee King, Certified Genealogist (sm), Certificate 903 Contract Genealogist, US Navy POW/MIA Branch Mail address - PO Box 1085, Manvel TX 77578 Telephone/fax 281-595-3090 www.forensicgenealogyservices.com www.facebook.com/forensicgenealogist Certified Genealogist (CG) is a service mark (sm) of the Board for Certification of Genealogists®, conferred to associates who consistently meet ethical and competency standards in accord with peer-reviewed evaluations every five years, and the board name is registered in the US Patent & Trademark Office.

Yes, you should order the file. I haven't seen a newer case involving deceased plaintiffs, but I have seen a court case in 1804 that involved a deceased defendant. I figured they hoped his estate would pay the debt. I ordered a court file from Santa Clara Superior Court, but I called them first to determine the process. I know they required a letter, but I don't remember if they told me how much copying would cost and thus I included payment at the same time. I had a case file number also because that it what was entered on the Missouri birth certificate which allowed a change in birth year. Patti On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:18 AM, sharon via < [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > I have questions regarding California civil dispute in Fresno Superior > Court in 1952 before Judge Popovich, according to a 1952 article in the > Fresno Bee newspaper. I don't know the case name but it was probably > something like Katherine M. Atwood (first named plaintiff--I don't know > who she was), et al vs. Mrs. Commilla Elwood, et al. I don't know the > disposition of the case. It probably was not a case of record (not > published in any court reporter). > The article named as plaintiffs deceased descendants (including my great > grandmother, who died in 1933) of a deceased > man, George Wiseman (1837-1909), who in 1899 helped to discover oil in > Kern River and whose descendants would have been entitled to receive > royalties from oil company shares were they living. > The defendant, Mrs. Commilla Elwood, was the spouse of another deceased > man, Burton Elwood, who helped > to discover the oil, and in 1939 all the discovers pooled their shares and > assigned them to Burton in trust that he would make appropriate > distributions, which he did. However, at his death his wife said the trust > arrangement was good only during his lifetime and that she need not > distribute any > royalties to the others. > Of George Wiseman's entitled descendants only two were living in 1952, but > others, including my great grandmother, were named as plaintiffs. > 1. Can deceased descendants be named plaintiffs in a lawsuit? > 2. I suppose if I wrote Fresno County Superior > Court I could gain information about the complaints and responses, and > disposition, right? > Sharon Whitney > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi all, I have questions regarding California civil dispute in Fresno Superior Court in 1952 before Judge Popovich, according to a 1952 article in the Fresno Bee newspaper. I don't know the case name but it was probably something like Katherine M. Atwood (first named plaintiff--I don't know who she was), et al vs. Mrs. Commilla Elwood, et al. I don't know the disposition of the case. It probably was not a case of record (not published in any court reporter). The article� named as plaintiffs deceased descendants (including my great grandmother, who died in 1933) of a deceased man, George Wiseman (1837-1909), who in 1899 helped to discover oil in Kern River and whose descendants would have been entitled to receive royalties from oil company shares were they living. The defendant, Mrs. Commilla Elwood, was the spouse of another deceased man, Burton Elwood, who helped to discover the oil, and in 1939 all the discovers pooled their shares and assigned them to Burton in trust that he would make appropriate distributions, which he did. However, at his death his wife said the trust arrangement was good only during his lifetime and that she need not distribute any royalties to the others. Of George Wiseman's entitled descendants only two were living in 1952, but others, including my great grandmother, were named as plaintiffs. 1. Can deceased descendants be named plaintiffs in a lawsuit? 2.� I suppose if I wrote Fresno County Superior Court I could gain information about the complaints and responses, and disposition, right? Sharon Whitney � � � �

Happy Boxing Day to all! A genealogy question has come from a discussion family members were having last night about tattoos. First-I am a rural Protestant Virginian by birth and still by mentality<smile>. I have traveled a lot and in fact left Va in the Air Force straight out of college and only was back for visits. My exposure to various ethnicities has been rather limited even with the traveling I have done. I have always lived in the south eastern US. Our son in law is Irish Catholic from Boston. Obviously a big difference in just his and my background. He brought out during the discussion on Tattoos last evening that in his area of Boston it was quite common to honor a family member who died with a tattoo. Mind you he does not have any but only because his mother prevailed. We then went on talking about other ethnicities that had tattoos to recognize there standing in their particular society etc. I am not trying to discuss the tattoos we see on tribal members etc but am interested, at least for the moment, in European and North American populations. Have any of you dealt with this? read about? had presentations on it? used it to aid in family history? Douglas Burnett Satellite Beach FL

Douglas, very interesting topic! I pulled a Civil War pension file for a friend last year and his ancestor's medical records described the three tattoos he had on his body. I'd never seen that before. The Kentucky Civil War ancestor was born in New York to parents of unknown ethnicity who were of lesser economic means. Not sure if that has anything to do with anything but adding it here in case it is helpful. It will interesting to see if others can comment on this subject. Phyllis-----Original Message----- From: "JDBEsq via" [ [email protected] ]( mailto:[email protected] ) Subject: [TGF] Genealogy in Tattoos? "...We then went on talking about other ethnicities that had tattoos to recognize there standing in their particular society etc. I am not trying to discuss the tattoos we see on tribal members etc but am interested, at least for the moment, in European and North American populations. Have any of you dealt with this? read about? had presentations on it? used it to aid in family history?