Greetings, I am trying to exactly place Warren County's cemeteries. The first problem one on my list is Old Philadelphia Cemetery (also called Vervilla). I believe that the image (URL below) is that of Old Philadelphia taken from the air. http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/cemeteries/old-philly.jpg I have been there however finding it from air is a different story. Is the image of Old Philadelphia? Fred Smoot In CA -- The closer you look, the farther you see. (Cavagnaro's Axiom)

Hi, Is there any way I could find if my 2nd Great grandparents are buried in the Liberty Cumberland Presbyterian Church. Supposedly she left her estate to the church. They are: Sterling Hale and wife Rosa/Rosana. ANY HELP WOULD BE SO GREATLY APPRECIATED. Mary On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:39:12 -0600 Ladye Jane Hunter <[email protected]> writes: > Hello, > > Liberty Church and Cemetery are on the same site, 317 Liberty Lane, > Warren > County, TN. Liberty Lane is a 'one block' road between Hwy 55 which > is the > route between McMinnville to Morrison and Manchester, Coffee County, > TN and > the old road Morrison Rd. and old Manchester Hwy. There is no > Liberty town > or community. In the southern end of Warren County, when one > mentions > Liberty, he/she is usually referring to Liberty Church and Liberty > Cemetery > on Liberty Lane. In the northern end of the county, the mention of > Liberty, > most likely is referring to the town of Liberty in DeKalb County. > > Ladye > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Smoot" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:44 AM > Subject: Re: [TNWARREN] Liberty Church > > > > Greetings, > > > > See Liberty Cumberland Presbyterian Church location: > > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/cemeteries/liberty-church.gif > > > > Use this site to find locations and create small maps. > > http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/web_query.gnis_web_query_form > > > > Next, the street address: > > 317 Liberty Ln > > Mc Minnville, TN 37110-3363 > > Phone: 931-473-3813 > > > > Use this site to find current addresses and phone numbers: > > http://www.switchboard.com/ > > > > Book 2 (Cemeteries; Cunningham, Holt, Majors) places a very large > "Liberty > > Cemetery. Off Hwy 55w, outside Liberty city limits." > > > > So here are two questions of my own: > > > > Is Liberty Church (on Liberty Lane) part of Liberty Cemetery on > Hwy 55w? > > > > Is "Liberty" a *city* in its own rights? > > > > Fred Smoot > > In CA > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Edna Macon" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:48 AM > > Subject: [TNWARREN] Liberty Church > > > > > : Can someone please me whether or not the Liberty Church still > exists? If > so, > > : where is it located, and are there originial records of same in > existence? > > : Thanks, Edna S. Macon > > : > > : > > > > > > > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > > Please see full list rules here: > > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > Please see full list rules here: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

Greetings all, In late 1805, the Cherokee signed off on the land that was to become Warren County in 1807. In theory, all Warren Cherokee should have moved to the then Cherokee lands in southeast Tennessee. Of course, this may not have happened. Some Cherokee may have remained in Warren County, especially wives (or common-law wives) of white men. Unfortunately, Warren County is not a place for much Cherokee research. I recommend that Cherokee queries be placed here: http://www.tngenweb.org/tnfirst/webbbs/cheroqueries/index.cgi TNGenWeb has some useful Cherokee information here: http://www.tngenweb.org/tnfirst/ Mailing lists: "Lost Indian Tribes Southeast" a very good and very large mailing list. This list is run by Dr. Donald Panther Yates and a lady named Brightstar. There are many knowledgeable subscribers on this list: http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Native/AMERIND-US-SE.html Our rather new and still small mailing list: http://www.tngenweb.org/tnfirst/cherokee-list.html Fred Smoot

Hello, Liberty Church and Cemetery are on the same site, 317 Liberty Lane, Warren County, TN. Liberty Lane is a 'one block' road between Hwy 55 which is the route between McMinnville to Morrison and Manchester, Coffee County, TN and the old road Morrison Rd. and old Manchester Hwy. There is no Liberty town or community. In the southern end of Warren County, when one mentions Liberty, he/she is usually referring to Liberty Church and Liberty Cemetery on Liberty Lane. In the northern end of the county, the mention of Liberty, most likely is referring to the town of Liberty in DeKalb County. Ladye ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Smoot" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [TNWARREN] Liberty Church > Greetings, > > See Liberty Cumberland Presbyterian Church location: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/cemeteries/liberty-church.gif > > Use this site to find locations and create small maps. > http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/web_query.gnis_web_query_form > > Next, the street address: > 317 Liberty Ln > Mc Minnville, TN 37110-3363 > Phone: 931-473-3813 > > Use this site to find current addresses and phone numbers: > http://www.switchboard.com/ > > Book 2 (Cemeteries; Cunningham, Holt, Majors) places a very large "Liberty > Cemetery. Off Hwy 55w, outside Liberty city limits." > > So here are two questions of my own: > > Is Liberty Church (on Liberty Lane) part of Liberty Cemetery on Hwy 55w? > > Is "Liberty" a *city* in its own rights? > > Fred Smoot > In CA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Edna Macon" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:48 AM > Subject: [TNWARREN] Liberty Church > > > : Can someone please me whether or not the Liberty Church still exists? If so, > : where is it located, and are there originial records of same in existence? > : Thanks, Edna S. Macon > : > : > > > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > Please see full list rules here: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Can someone please me whether or not the Liberty Church still exists? If so, where is it located, and are there originial records of same in existence? Thanks, Edna S. Macon

Greetings, See Liberty Cumberland Presbyterian Church location: http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/cemeteries/liberty-church.gif Use this site to find locations and create small maps. http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/web_query.gnis_web_query_form Next, the street address: 317 Liberty Ln Mc Minnville, TN 37110-3363 Phone: 931-473-3813 Use this site to find current addresses and phone numbers: http://www.switchboard.com/ Book 2 (Cemeteries; Cunningham, Holt, Majors) places a very large "Liberty Cemetery. Off Hwy 55w, outside Liberty city limits." So here are two questions of my own: Is Liberty Church (on Liberty Lane) part of Liberty Cemetery on Hwy 55w? Is "Liberty" a *city* in its own rights? Fred Smoot In CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edna Macon" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:48 AM Subject: [TNWARREN] Liberty Church : Can someone please me whether or not the Liberty Church still exists? If so, : where is it located, and are there originial records of same in existence? : Thanks, Edna S. Macon : :

Thanks you so much for the cemetery record and the obit for Amanda. Pattie

Ladye Jane Hunter, Good morning from Tokyo. Thanks you for the link. In general, research is difficult, but attempting to do it from Tokyo is nearly impossible without support from kind people as yourself. Thank you. Tei A. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ladye Jane Hunter" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:39 AM Subject: Re: [TNWARREN] deciphering old handwriting > TAG, > > You are not the first one who needs help deciphering old hand writing. Fred > Smoot has a good page on the Warren County page: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/ > > Ladye Jane Hunter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TAG" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:31 PM > Subject: [TNWARREN] deciphering old handwriting > > > > I have just a couple general questions about Warren Co records. Seems so > > basic, it's somewhat embarrassing to ask. > > > > > > > > 1) Are there any services available to transcribe old handwriting from > > early Warren Co. land grants, deeds and land records? It took a lot of > > effort to obtain them and now I am having a terrible time understanding > what > > is written in my ancestral records. > > > > > > > > 2) I am confused by the logic of the old census records. I am trying to > > find out more about my gr-gr-gr-grandmother Sarah Gordon (b. abt 1800 – d. > > 18??). In the 1850 census, she is listed as being born in 1800. Then in > > the 1860 census, she is again listed as being born in 1800. However, in > the > > 1830 census, she is listed as between being born between 1780 and 1790, > i.e. > > between 10 and 20 years difference. I have reason to believe she was > > actually born in 1785. Is it possible for old census records to be wrong? > > > > > > > > Furthermore, in the 1850 census Sarah and Robert Gordon are listed as > being > > from NC, yet in the 1880 census, their son indicates that they were from > KY. > > Was the census-taker wrong again? > > > > > > > > Any advice would be appreciated. I am racking my brain, trying to make > > sense of all these puzzling records. > > > > > > > > Thanks, Tei A. Gordon > > > > > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > > Please see full list rules here: > > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > Please see full list rules here: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Like you I have no idea if there is any document's to prove this. I was told the story to by my grandmother. Her mother was born 1898 and was asked to join the reservation because she had enough indian blood in her to make her full blooded. I have questions like "Who asked this?", "Where was the reservation?", "When was she asked?", "What kind of documentation is there?". So many questions and no answers. Then I get to thinging wonder if it was my great great grandmother who was asked but I don't think she was indian. Plus she died before 1900. If any one can help us on this we would be greatly appreciative. Christy

Christy and anyone else with clues My Mother was born in Franklin Co. TN in 1906. The family story goes: Around 1924 she got a letter from some Cherokee agency stating something like, If she wanted to claim her rights as a Cherokee she had to respond within a certain length of time. My question for a long time has been, what agency and wouldn't there be some kind of record of such correspondence. I never got this story directly from my Mother but my brother who is considerably older than me was told by her sisters about this letter. It appears that my Mother and her family did not want to admit that anyone was any part Indian. This was truly not acceptable in the South at that time. Anyone with suggestions as to how to pursue finding some record of this correspondence. Obviously my Mother did not respond to the offer. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to read this. Carol, http://community.webtv.net/carg/MYREALWORK Whatever befalls the earth Befalls the sons of the earth. ~Chief Seattle~

I have just a couple general questions about Warren Co records. Seems so basic, it's somewhat embarrassing to ask. 1) Are there any services available to transcribe old handwriting from early Warren Co. land grants, deeds and land records? It took a lot of effort to obtain them and now I am having a terrible time understanding what is written in my ancestral records. 2) I am confused by the logic of the old census records. I am trying to find out more about my gr-gr-gr-grandmother Sarah Gordon (b. abt 1800 – d. 18??). In the 1850 census, she is listed as being born in 1800. Then in the 1860 census, she is again listed as being born in 1800. However, in the 1830 census, she is listed as between being born between 1780 and 1790, i.e. between 10 and 20 years difference. I have reason to believe she was actually born in 1785. Is it possible for old census records to be wrong? Furthermore, in the 1850 census Sarah and Robert Gordon are listed as being from NC, yet in the 1880 census, their son indicates that they were from KY. Was the census-taker wrong again? Any advice would be appreciated. I am racking my brain, trying to make sense of all these puzzling records. Thanks, Tei A. Gordon

<A HREF="http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~barlow/censustaker.html">The Census Taker</A> TAG, This may give you a clearer picture of what the census taker was dealing with and why he appears to be wrong most of the time. Though his assignment was official, his "subjects" weren't always helpful in fulfilling his task. By the way, I am delighted to see this much activity on the Warren County TN list. And I'm so proud of all who are being so helpful. Right on, gang! Nancy in MO

TAG, Another good site on legal terms from Noel Matthews: http://www.noelm.com/little/legaltermsABC.html Ladye Jane Hunter ----- Original Message ----- From: "TAG" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:31 PM Subject: [TNWARREN] deciphering old handwriting > I have just a couple general questions about Warren Co records. Seems so > basic, it's somewhat embarrassing to ask. > > > > 1) Are there any services available to transcribe old handwriting from > early Warren Co. land grants, deeds and land records? It took a lot of > effort to obtain them and now I am having a terrible time understanding what > is written in my ancestral records. > > > > 2) I am confused by the logic of the old census records. I am trying to > find out more about my gr-gr-gr-grandmother Sarah Gordon (b. abt 1800 – d. > 18??). In the 1850 census, she is listed as being born in 1800. Then in > the 1860 census, she is again listed as being born in 1800. However, in the > 1830 census, she is listed as between being born between 1780 and 1790, i.e. > between 10 and 20 years difference. I have reason to believe she was > actually born in 1785. Is it possible for old census records to be wrong? > > > > Furthermore, in the 1850 census Sarah and Robert Gordon are listed as being > from NC, yet in the 1880 census, their son indicates that they were from KY. > Was the census-taker wrong again? > > > > Any advice would be appreciated. I am racking my brain, trying to make > sense of all these puzzling records. > > > > Thanks, Tei A. Gordon > > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > Please see full list rules here: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

TAG, You are not the first one who needs help deciphering old hand writing. Fred Smoot has a good page on the Warren County page: http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/ Ladye Jane Hunter ----- Original Message ----- From: "TAG" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:31 PM Subject: [TNWARREN] deciphering old handwriting > I have just a couple general questions about Warren Co records. Seems so > basic, it's somewhat embarrassing to ask. > > > > 1) Are there any services available to transcribe old handwriting from > early Warren Co. land grants, deeds and land records? It took a lot of > effort to obtain them and now I am having a terrible time understanding what > is written in my ancestral records. > > > > 2) I am confused by the logic of the old census records. I am trying to > find out more about my gr-gr-gr-grandmother Sarah Gordon (b. abt 1800 – d. > 18??). In the 1850 census, she is listed as being born in 1800. Then in > the 1860 census, she is again listed as being born in 1800. However, in the > 1830 census, she is listed as between being born between 1780 and 1790, i.e. > between 10 and 20 years difference. I have reason to believe she was > actually born in 1785. Is it possible for old census records to be wrong? > > > > Furthermore, in the 1850 census Sarah and Robert Gordon are listed as being > from NC, yet in the 1880 census, their son indicates that they were from KY. > Was the census-taker wrong again? > > > > Any advice would be appreciated. I am racking my brain, trying to make > sense of all these puzzling records. > > > > Thanks, Tei A. Gordon > > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > Please see full list rules here: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

census records are ususally wrong. ----- Original Message ----- From: "TAG" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 1:31 PM Subject: [TNWARREN] deciphering old handwriting > I have just a couple general questions about Warren Co records. Seems so > basic, it's somewhat embarrassing to ask. > > > > 1) Are there any services available to transcribe old handwriting from > early Warren Co. land grants, deeds and land records? It took a lot of > effort to obtain them and now I am having a terrible time understanding what > is written in my ancestral records. > > > > 2) I am confused by the logic of the old census records. I am trying to > find out more about my gr-gr-gr-grandmother Sarah Gordon (b. abt 1800 – d. > 18??). In the 1850 census, she is listed as being born in 1800. Then in > the 1860 census, she is again listed as being born in 1800. However, in the > 1830 census, she is listed as between being born between 1780 and 1790, i.e. > between 10 and 20 years difference. I have reason to believe she was > actually born in 1785. Is it possible for old census records to be wrong? > > > > Furthermore, in the 1850 census Sarah and Robert Gordon are listed as being > from NC, yet in the 1880 census, their son indicates that they were from KY. > Was the census-taker wrong again? > > > > Any advice would be appreciated. I am racking my brain, trying to make > sense of all these puzzling records. > > > > Thanks, Tei A. Gordon > > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > Please see full list rules here: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Hi Carol, I think you may be referring to the Dawes Rolls - they were initiated in the 1880's, and something else went on about the act in the 1920's. Haven't had the need to use them myself, but you can read about them, and possibly find some family information at the following website: http://www.netmodem.com/dawes/dawes_act.htm Hope this helps Bonnie Schwarz

Found the following in Obituaries from Southern Standard & New Era Newspapers from Central Tennessee (1867-1934) by Maxinne Reggio. *Note: Any mis-spellings are as they appear in the book. (Re: The name "Emma" appears once in the article below). page 128 ***#298 McBride, Mrs. Amanda Southern Standard Thursday, November 2, 1933 - Mrs. Emma McBride Succumbs to Illness Last rites were held from the Baptist church this afternoon at 4 p.m.. for Mrs. Amanda McBride, who passed away Wednesday, Nov. 1, at the home of her daughter, Mrs. George Davis, at the age of 73 years. She was the wife of Andrew Jackson McBride, former Baptist minister, who preceeded her in death about seven years ago. Rev. A. H. Huff officiated at the services. Internment was made in Riverside cemetery under the direction of the McMinnville Funeral Home. Happy hunting, Gary in Oregon At 09:38 AM 10/29/02 -0500, [email protected] had this to say: > Warren County Cemetary Book Volume 4. Amanda Marlow McBride was not >in the listing. Hope this helps you. Good luck with your >search. >Christy > >Riverside Cemetary, Warren County, Tn > >Rev. Andrew McBride Died April 1, 1926, age 72 years (Andrew Jackson, >husband to Amanda Marlow) > >Octa McBride Davis No Dates ( Daughter of Andrew Jackson and Amanda >(Marlow) McBride, wife of George Smith Davis) > >George Smith Davis March 1, 1885 to Sep. 29, 1943 (Son of John and Sarah >Elizabeth (Cantrell) Davis, husband of Octa McBride) > >Fana Davis Brazier 1919- Nov. 8, 1982 (Daughter of George Smith and >Octa(McBride) Davis, wife of Tommy Brazier) > >Tommy Brazier Dec. 24, 1919 to Aug. 31, 1955 (Son of Jesse L. and Effie R. >Brazier, husband of Fana Lavert Davis)

Warren County Cemetary Book Volume 4. Amanda Marlow McBride was not in the listing. Hope this helps you. Good luck with your search. Christy Riverside Cemetary, Warren County, Tn Rev. Andrew McBride Died April 1, 1926, age 72 years (Andrew Jackson, husband to Amanda Marlow) Octa McBride Davis No Dates ( Daughter of Andrew Jackson and Amanda (Marlow) McBride, wife of George Smith Davis) George Smith Davis March 1, 1885 to Sep. 29, 1943 (Son of John and Sarah Elizabeth (Cantrell) Davis, husband of Octa McBride) Fana Davis Brazier 1919- Nov. 8, 1982 (Daughter of George Smith and Octa(McBride) Davis, wife of Tommy Brazier) Tommy Brazier Dec. 24, 1919 to Aug. 31, 1955 (Son of Jesse L. and Effie R. Brazier, husband of Fana Lavert Davis)

Is anyone on the list researching the McBride families of Warren County? I am looking for a cemetery record for ANDREW J. AND AMANDA MARLOW MCBRIDE. They were living in Warren Co. according to the 1920 census. Andrew "Andy" was born June 1854 and Amanda was born April 1860. Also, is there a marriage book for Warren Co before 1920 and if so would someone mind doing a lookup for two of ANDREW AND AMANDA'S daughters. There names are RHESA MCBRIDE born Feb. 1894 and OCTA M. MCBRIDE born Dec. 1895. Octa may have married a Davis. ANY information on this family would be wonderful. Thanks, Pattie

The Warren Coiunty Will Book 1, page 2-6 13 Apr 1827, Will of Joseph Dial mentions his daughter Catherine Randolph has having received Lettisha, a negro girl worth $420, and said Catherine being dead, her three children, namely Perry D. Randolph, Henry Randolph, and Martha Ann Randolph are to stand as her legal representatives and that part of my estate which falls to the said children be kept by my executors until those children attain the age of 21 years Robert Randolph wrote: > I am looking for any kind of records of either Henry Randolph, who died > in McMinnville on July 27, 1836, and is buried in the Liberty Cemetery, > or his son, Anderson Randolph, who was born in McMinnville on February > 26, 1826 and died there on January 11, 1889, and is also buried in the > Liberty Cemetery. Any records as to purchases and sales of real estate > would be helpful. Thanks. > > ==== TNWARREN Mailing List ==== > This TNWARREN mailing list is provided by RootsWeb. > It is the joint mailing list of the Warren County Genealogical > Association and Warren County TNGenWeb Project. > No commercial activities are allowed on this list. > Please see full list rules here: > http://www.tngenweb.org/warren/tnwarren.htm > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237