Dear Cindy, Many thanks for the information, especially the 1870 LCT census record: 77/77 Williams, T.J. 66 Tn Ray, Permelia 50 Ga Woodard, Margaret 22 Tn Ray, Victoria 19 Tn Ray, W. M. 7 Tn In the book, "The Heritage of Madison County, Alabama," on pages 375 & 376 is the article "Annie Eli(z)abeth Preston and William Morgan Ray," submitted by Marie Ray Anderson. The article states, "Bill was the only son born to William and Permelia Ray in Kelso, Lincoln County, Tennessee, 4 August 1863." At first glance, it would appear that the W. M. Ray age 7, in the above census record, may be the William Morgan Ray referred to in the article. That William Ray, the father, probably died prior to the 1870 LCT census. And that Permelia Ray, in the census record, is the same person referred to in the article. Furthermore, based on the 1880 LCT census, we know that Victoria Ray is Permelia Ray's daughter. Now after that, it becomes a little murky. Also in the 1880 census is a 46 year old William Ray (thus born about 1834), who is identified as the son of Permelia Ray. I doubt that Permelia Ray would have two sons named William Ray. We know that the William Ray who is 46 in 1880, and Victoria Ray have different fathers (if the census information on the birthplace of their fathers is correct). For argument sake, let's assume that their fathers are different. Then maybe the half-brother William Ray (46 in 1880) is not really a RAY at all. Clearly he is from the earlier marriage; that Permelia married a William Ray following the death (or divorce) of her first husband. Unfortunately, there are now more questions then answers! 1. Even if all that is correct, then who is Permelia Ray's first husband? 2. How is Permelia Ray related to T. J. Williams? (If he were born in Georgia, then maybe he is her brother. I guess that still can't be ruled out.) 3. Where is William Morgan Ray in 1880, he would have been 17 years old. 4. Is it possible that the census records are incorrect? That the William Ray in 1880 really should be 16 instead of 46 and that he and Victoria really do have the same father -- making the William Ray in 1880 William Morgan Ray?? 5. Who is Margaret Woodard? A daughter of T. J. Williams who married a WOODARD; or the daughter of Permelia Ray who married a WOODARD? 6. And we are still left with who is the father of John Robert Ray? Since we know from the article that William Ray & Permelia Ray had only the one son, William Morgan Ray, who would be 16-17 years old in 1880, he is too young to be the father of John Robert Ray who was born in 1868, when William Morgan Ray was only 5. 7. If the William Ray who is 46 in 1880 is the father of John Robert Ray, then did William Ray take his step-father's surname? Or maybe he really is a RAY afterall, and that his father was related to (brother of?) Permelia's 2nd husband? But then that brings me back to why would Permelia Ray have two sons named William Ray? Thanks Cindy!!! I'm probably in a deeper hole than I was before! (Ha Ha!) Somebody please throw me a rope -- one with lots and lots of answers! Jim