Hi, When TMG sees events that have the same Date and Sort Date, how does it determine the output order for a Journal Report? For example, in the Person Details window I have a Marriage tag followed by the Name-Marr tag, Name-Var tag #1 and Name-Var tag #2. All four tags have the same Date and Sort Date. The Journal Report outputs the sentence for Name-Var tag #1, followed by Name-Var tag #2, the Name-Marr tag and finally the Marriage tag. I expected to see sentences output in the order the tags appear in the Details window, but that's clearly not what happens. Changing the Sort Dates certainly cleans all this up. I'd like to know what I should expect when Sort Dates are the same. Brian

Brian, When the sort dates are the same, the sort sequence is unpredictable. Even if you get the same sequence when running a report multiple times, it may change later for no apparent reason. If you want a specific sequence, set the sort dates to achieve it. John

At 2/2/2019 20:10, Brian Gross wrote >When TMG sees events that have the same Date and Sort Date, how does it >determine the output order for a Journal Report? ====clipped==== >Changing the Sort Dates certainly cleans all this up. I'd like to know what >I should expect when Sort Dates are the same. What you should expect is ---- nothing! That is, when Tags (expecially similar Tags) have the same Date (and especially Sort Date) then they will output in whichever Tag happens to come next. When a report is generated, TMG gathers the various records needed and writes them to temporary files which are then sorted according to the need of the report and the Report Options selected. When two records have the same sort value, either can be placed before the other/ In fact, it is possible that a report generated today _could_ have records sorted differently than the same report generated yesterday (assuming no change to the data set). The only way to be sure that two records having the same Date sort in a specific way is to make sure the Sort Dates are different. This is especially so for Tags of the same Tag Type. Different Tag Types having the same Sort Date often sort in a specific order -- more often in the expected life order -- birth, marriage, death, burial. In the case of married name and marriages, TMG v9x will sort the married name before the marriage. This was not the case with earlier versions of TMG (e.g., v4x) where the marriage printed first. This is why many users prefer to change the Sort Date of the Name-Marr Tag to one date later than the Marriage Tag (or add the "after" date prefix). So, if the particular order of data in a report is important, be sure to set the Sort Date(s) so that the order is as you want. Lee

On 2/2/19 8:41 PM, Lee Hoffman wrote: > At 2/2/2019 20:10, Brian Gross wrote >> When TMG sees events that have the same Date and Sort Date, how does it >> determine the output order for a Journal Report? > ====clipped==== >> Changing the Sort Dates certainly cleans all this up.  I'd like to >> know what >> I should expect when Sort Dates are the same. > > What you should expect is  ---- nothing!   That is, when Tags > (expecially similar Tags) have the same Date (and especially Sort > Date) then they will output in whichever Tag happens to come next.  > When a report is generated, TMG gathers the various records needed and > writes them to temporary files which are then sorted according to the > need of the report and the Report Options selected.  When two records > have the same sort value, either can be placed before the other/  In > fact, it is possible that a report generated today _could_ have > records sorted differently than the same report generated yesterday > (assuming no change to the data set). > > The only way to be sure that two records having the same Date sort in > a specific way is to make sure the Sort Dates are different.  This is > especially so for Tags of the same Tag Type.  Different Tag Types > having the same  Sort Date often sort in a specific order -- more > often in the expected life order -- birth, marriage, death, burial. > > In the case of married name and marriages, TMG v9x will sort the > married name before the marriage.  This was not the case with earlier > versions of TMG (e.g., v4x) where the marriage printed first.  This is > why many users prefer to change the Sort Date of the Name-Marr Tag to > one date later than the Marriage Tag (or add the "after" date prefix). > > So, if the particular order of data in a report is important, be sure > to set the Sort Date(s) so that the order is as you want. > > Lee > One small trick that I have figured out that helps in making same day sort dates sort in a given order is to change them to date ranges. 2 Feb 2019 sorts before 2 Feb 2019 - 3 Feb 2019 which sorts before 2 Feb 2019 - 4 Feb 2019 which sorts before 3 Feb 2019 Using date ranges avoids the problem of having to have a sort date with a different base day than the actual event just to get things sorted, and then chasing other events that happened close to that date also. This works better in my mind than working with things like after, because there are a limited number of these options, and it is hard to remember the order of them. -- Richard Damon

John, Lee and Richard, Thank you for the messages. John and Lee: I hadn't imagined that the sorting would be pseudo-random, but it makes sense that it would be that way. I'll correct the Sort Dates and eliminate the problem. Richard: Thank you for the tip re. Sort Date ranges. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2019 7:47 PM To: tmg@rootsweb.com Subject: [TMG] Re: Order of events in Journal Report On 2/2/19 8:41 PM, Lee Hoffman wrote: > At 2/2/2019 20:10, Brian Gross wrote >> When TMG sees events that have the same Date and Sort Date, how does >> it determine the output order for a Journal Report? > ====clipped==== >> Changing the Sort Dates certainly cleans all this up. I'd like to >> know what I should expect when Sort Dates are the same. > > What you should expect is ---- nothing! That is, when Tags > (expecially similar Tags) have the same Date (and especially Sort > Date) then they will output in whichever Tag happens to come next. > When a report is generated, TMG gathers the various records needed and > writes them to temporary files which are then sorted according to the > need of the report and the Report Options selected. When two records > have the same sort value, either can be placed before the other/ In > fact, it is possible that a report generated today _could_ have > records sorted differently than the same report generated yesterday > (assuming no change to the data set). > > The only way to be sure that two records having the same Date sort in > a specific way is to make sure the Sort Dates are different. This is > especially so for Tags of the same Tag Type. Different Tag Types > having the same Sort Date often sort in a specific order -- more > often in the expected life order -- birth, marriage, death, burial. > > In the case of married name and marriages, TMG v9x will sort the > married name before the marriage. This was not the case with earlier > versions of TMG (e.g., v4x) where the marriage printed first. This is > why many users prefer to change the Sort Date of the Name-Marr Tag to > one date later than the Marriage Tag (or add the "after" date prefix). > > So, if the particular order of data in a report is important, be sure > to set the Sort Date(s) so that the order is as you want. > > Lee > One small trick that I have figured out that helps in making same day sort dates sort in a given order is to change them to date ranges. 2 Feb 2019 sorts before 2 Feb 2019 - 3 Feb 2019 which sorts before 2 Feb 2019 - 4 Feb 2019 which sorts before 3 Feb 2019 Using date ranges avoids the problem of having to have a sort date with a different base day than the actual event just to get things sorted, and then chasing other events that happened close to that date also. This works better in my mind than working with things like after, because there are a limited number of these options, and it is hard to remember the order of them. -- Richard Damon _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/tmg@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

On 2/2/19 11:23 PM, Brian Gross wrote: > John, Lee and Richard, > > Thank you for the messages. > > John and Lee: I hadn't imagined that the sorting would be pseudo-random, but it makes sense that it would be that way. > > I'll correct the Sort Dates and eliminate the problem. Richard: Thank you for the tip re. Sort Date ranges. > > Brian Just to be clear, it isn't that the sort is 'random', which sort of implies that something is done to intentionally make it different time to time, but that the sort is uncontrolled, that there are no extra factors that are taken in effect to provide a stable sorting for events with the same sort date. For a given database, and a given set of conditions, the sort will give the same result, as computers naturally tend to do the same thing the same way. The issue is that a minor change that seems inconsequential to you might change the results. The best solution is to adjust sort dates so no two events (that you care about their order) have the exact same sort date, then there is not an issue. -- Richard Damon

Hi Richard, Thank you for the clarification. I carelessly used the term "pseudo-random," which actually has a real meaning (which I actually know). Anyway, I now have to figure out how to fix all those Name-marr tags that have Sort Dates equal to the Marriage tag Date. I tried the magic of TMGU (thanks John!) but this is pretty gnarly. Is the information in a single file that I could (if I weren't risk-averse) write a script to fix? Brian -----Original Message----- From: Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 4:34 AM To: tmg@rootsweb.com Subject: [TMG] Re: Order of events in Journal Report On 2/2/19 11:23 PM, Brian Gross wrote: > John, Lee and Richard, > > Thank you for the messages. > > John and Lee: I hadn't imagined that the sorting would be pseudo-random, but it makes sense that it would be that way. > > I'll correct the Sort Dates and eliminate the problem. Richard: Thank you for the tip re. Sort Date ranges. > > Brian Just to be clear, it isn't that the sort is 'random', which sort of implies that something is done to intentionally make it different time to time, but that the sort is uncontrolled, that there are no extra factors that are taken in effect to provide a stable sorting for events with the same sort date. For a given database, and a given set of conditions, the sort will give the same result, as computers naturally tend to do the same thing the same way. The issue is that a minor change that seems inconsequential to you might change the results. The best solution is to adjust sort dates so no two events (that you care about their order) have the exact same sort date, then there is not an issue. -- Richard Damon _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/tmg@rootsweb.com Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Brian Gross replied to Richard Damon's suggestion: > I'll correct the Sort Dates and eliminate the problem. > Richard: Thank you for the tip re. Sort Date ranges. In the Index of my on-line book under "Dates" there is an index entry "Multiple events on the same date". Clicking on that jumps to a detailed list of various forms of Sort Dates one can enter to order such multiple dates where all such entries have the same base date. https://www.mjh-nm.net/DATENTRY.HTML#DateRange For example, there are three separate ways to enter date ranges. So: 21 Jul 2006 - 22 Jul 2006 comes before 21 Jul 2006 or 22 Jul 2006 which comes before 21 Jul 2006 to 22 Jul 2006 And if one only has two events on the same date (e.g. Death and Burial), simply appending a question mark will cause such a Sort Date to be after the base date: 21 Jul 2006 comes before 21 Jul 2006? Like Richard I prefer to have multiple tags with the same Date have their Sort Dates all with the event's base date. Hope this gives ideas, Michael

Michael, Thank you for the tip. I clearly don't understand the correct way to do this. I have a Marriage tag followed by a Name-Marr tag. I'd originally used a single date for the Date and Sort Date for both events. The resulting sentences were not in the correct order in the report. Incrementing the Sort Date for the Name-Marr tag by one day produced a correct report output. Trying to follow your information by using a single date but appending a "?" to the Sort Date of the Name-Marr tag produced two outputs of the Name-Marr sentence in the report. What am I doing wrong? Brian -----Original Message----- From: Michael J. Hannah <mjh@rr-nm.net> Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 10:38 AM To: tmg@rootsweb.com Cc: brian.gross@pacbell.net Subject: [TMG] Re: Order of events in Journal Report Brian Gross replied to Richard Damon's suggestion: > I'll correct the Sort Dates and eliminate the problem. > Richard: Thank you for the tip re. Sort Date ranges. In the Index of my on-line book under "Dates" there is an index entry "Multiple events on the same date". Clicking on that jumps to a detailed list of various forms of Sort Dates one can enter to order such multiple dates where all such entries have the same base date. https://www.mjh-nm.net/DATENTRY.HTML#DateRange For example, there are three separate ways to enter date ranges. So: 21 Jul 2006 - 22 Jul 2006 comes before 21 Jul 2006 or 22 Jul 2006 which comes before 21 Jul 2006 to 22 Jul 2006 And if one only has two events on the same date (e.g. Death and Burial), simply appending a question mark will cause such a Sort Date to be after the base date: 21 Jul 2006 comes before 21 Jul 2006? Like Richard I prefer to have multiple tags with the same Date have their Sort Dates all with the event's base date. Hope this gives ideas, Michael

Brian Gross wrote: > Thank you for the tip. I clearly don't understand the correct way to do > this. > > I have a Marriage tag followed by a Name-Marr tag. I'd originally used a > single date for the Date and Sort Date for both events. The resulting > sentences were not in the correct order in the report. > > Incrementing the Sort Date for the Name-Marr tag by one day produced a > correct report output. > > Trying to follow your information by using a single date but appending a "?" > to the Sort Date of the Name-Marr tag produced two outputs of the Name-Marr > sentence in the report. Hi Brian, The only way I can imagine producing two outputs of the Name-Marr sentence is if there are two Name-Marr tags. There should only be one for a given Marriage. Commonly a Name-Marr tag is automatically produced by TMG (possibly as a result of agreeing to a prompt) when you Add a Marriage tag. That automatically produced Name-Marr tag will be created with the same Date and Sort Date as the Marriage tag. Just open that existing Name-Marr tag for edit, put your cursor at the end of its existing Sort Date, add a question mark character at the end, and Okay the tag edit window. Hope this helps, Michael

Michael, You were absolutely correct. There was a second Name-Marr tag for the same marriage. Brian -----Original Message----- From: Michael J. Hannah <mjh@rr-nm.net> Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 9:26 AM To: The Master Genealogist Rootsweb Email List <tmg@rootsweb.com> Cc: brian.gross@pacbell.net Subject: Re: [TMG] Re: Order of events in Journal Report Brian Gross wrote: > Thank you for the tip. I clearly don't understand the correct way to > do this. > > I have a Marriage tag followed by a Name-Marr tag. I'd originally > used a single date for the Date and Sort Date for both events. The > resulting sentences were not in the correct order in the report. > > Incrementing the Sort Date for the Name-Marr tag by one day produced a > correct report output. > > Trying to follow your information by using a single date but appending a "?" > to the Sort Date of the Name-Marr tag produced two outputs of the > Name-Marr sentence in the report. Hi Brian, The only way I can imagine producing two outputs of the Name-Marr sentence is if there are two Name-Marr tags. There should only be one for a given Marriage. Commonly a Name-Marr tag is automatically produced by TMG (possibly as a result of agreeing to a prompt) when you Add a Marriage tag. That automatically produced Name-Marr tag will be created with the same Date and Sort Date as the Marriage tag. Just open that existing Name-Marr tag for edit, put your cursor at the end of its existing Sort Date, add a question mark character at the end, and Okay the tag edit window. Hope this helps, Michael