At 11/16/2017 01:23, Ann M Shepherd wrote >I guess that the source elements for any template are currently arranged >automatically somehow by TMG? As has been noted by Robin and Michael, the Source Definition screen Source Element arrangement is fixed and can't be changed. As you already know, you cannot have two different Source Elements from the same Source Element Group in the Source Templates of a Source Type. These Source Elements Groups are each given a number internally by TMG and we cannot change them. There are 160 Source Elements spread across 32 Source Element Groups. It is a Source Element Group into which you enter data for a Source. But a Source Element Group name may not be the reminder that is needed to prompt you for the right data. It is for this reason that we have Source Elements and can add Custom Source Elements as aliases for the Source Element Group to which the Source Element is included. Actually, the Source Element Groups are more or less arranged in a logical order -- at least for the first few. Since not all Source Types are the same, some of the first few Source Element Groups aren't used and others have been added. Think of books, newspapers, and similar sources as being arranged in this order: 1 [TITLE] 2 [SHORT TITLE] or [ARTICLE TITLE] 3 [CHAPTER TITLE] or [SUBTITLE] 4 [SHORT CHAPTER TITLE] or [SHORT SUBTITLE] 5 [RECORD TYPE] 6 [AUTHOR] 7 [SUBJECT] 8 [COMPILER] 9 [EDITOR] These Source Element Groups will generally define most books, newspapers, and similar sources. Other Source Elements of the above Groups will go a long way toward defining many other sources. But, those other sources may not be logically similar to book and newspapers. Lee

Ann, Lee Hoffman observed that the first nine source element groups in the list of 23 possible groups I referenced are probably very common. I am assuming he is suggesting that if one creates Source Types whose definition includes these nine groups then any Source Definition created using such Source Types will have these elements fixed in the first nine slots. Since the General tab will only show Title plus 14 of the possible 23 such Source Element Groups, I chose to construct a custom Source Type called "Miscellaneous". It includes the element groups I find most useful, which are (in order on the screen) Title plus: Subtitle, Record Type, Author, Subject, Second Person, Date, Second Date, Location, Second Location, Publisher, Publisher Address, Series, Edition, Volumes. If consistency of order is important on the source data entry screen, then one could always use a single Source Type like this one for Source Definitions but only enter data in the fields appropriate to this specific source. For a description of the three templates for this custom general purpose Source Type of mine see: http://www.mjh-nm.net/SRCTMPLS.HTML#Misc Hope this gives you ideas, Michael

It's important to keep in mind that you cannot have the same Source Element in two Source Element Groups. This can lead to real difficulties if you want to use the same Source Element in different custom source templates. The Source Element "Volume", for example, is part of the [VOLUMES] Source Group. If you want to use "Volume" in a custom source template, all the other Source Elements in that template need to be from other Source Groups. It's really easy to get confused or to design yourself into a corner if you're not careful (I know, I have). I've found that using a spreadsheet that lists all my custom sources and the source elements is essential to keeping track of my custom elements. I strongly suggest your uni student do the same. I've listed three entries below so you can see how the spreadsheet idea works. Brian "Federal Census, 1900+, Household" "Book, authored, multivolume" "Book, compilers, et al., authored chapter" GROUP ELEMENT ELEMENT ELEMENT [TITLE] Title Title Title [SHORT TITLE] Short Title Short Title [SUBTITLE] Subtitle Subtitle [SHORT SUBTITLE] Chapter [RECORD TYPE] County [AUTHOR] Author Chapter Author [SUBJECT] Household [COMPILER] Compilers [EDITOR] [SECOND PERSON] Short Compilers [DATE] Publish Date Publish Date [SECOND DATE] [LOCATION] Location [SECOND LOCATION] State [PUBLISHER] Publisher Publisher [PUBLISHER LOCATION] Publisher Address Publisher Address [SERIES] Enumeration District [EDITION] Edition Edition [VERSION] Roll Num Volumes [VOLUMES] Page (stamped) Volume [PAGES] Page (penned) Page Page [REPOSITORY] [REPOSITORY INFO] [REPOSITORY REFERENCE] [FILE REFERENCE] Dwelling OCoLC Number OCoLC Number [RECORD NUMBER] Family OCLC Number OCLC Number [FILM NUMBER] Film Number [COMMENTS] M1 - M3 : Online source M1 - M3 : Online source M1 - M3 : Online source M4 - M7 : Not used M4 - M7 : Not used M4 - M7 : Not used M8 : Comments M8 : Comments M8 : Comments [CITATION DETAILS] CD CD [CITATION REFERENCE] [CITATION MEMO] [REPOSITORY MEMO] RM1: Repository Name RM1: Repository Name RM1: Repository Name RM2: Repository Location RM2: Repository Location RM2: Repository Location RM4: Repository State RM4: Repository State RM4: Repository State

Thank you Lee, Brian, Sue, Robin, Michael and all for your advice and thoughts on my question. I accept that I can't change the order of source template fields (other than by choosing a source element that will appear earlier on the template) The things that have helped me to reduce the difficulty for my uni student helper are - knowing the order in which elements will appear on a template as this has enabled me to choose a better source group for more logical output; Sue's online advice to save time by 1st using an existing source to play around with new fields, then going back to the source type itself to change in accordance with that; and creating custom names for various source elements eg Marriage Date, Birth Date, Burial Date all in the same date group, but which make it easier for my helper to know what the field is for. Thank you again Ann I do already have a tables of my source elements (standard and custom) so have used that to rearrange a few -----Original Message----- From: TMG [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brian Gross Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 5:58 PM To: 'The Master Genealogist Rootsweb Email List' <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [TMG] Can I relocate source elements on source templates? It's important to keep in mind that you cannot have the same Source Element in two Source Element Groups. This can lead to real difficulties if you want to use the same Source Element in different custom source templates. The Source Element "Volume", for example, is part of the [VOLUMES] Source Group. If you want to use "Volume" in a custom source template, all the other Source Elements in that template need to be from other Source Groups. It's really easy to get confused or to design yourself into a corner if you're not careful (I know, I have). I've found that using a spreadsheet that lists all my custom sources and the source elements is essential to keeping track of my custom elements. I strongly suggest your uni student do the same. I've listed three entries below so you can see how the spreadsheet idea works. Brian "Federal Census, 1900+, Household" "Book, authored, multivolume" "Book, compilers, et al., authored chapter" GROUP ELEMENT ELEMENT ELEMENT [TITLE] Title Title Title [SHORT TITLE] Short Title Short Title [SUBTITLE] Subtitle Subtitle [SHORT SUBTITLE] Chapter [RECORD TYPE] County [AUTHOR] Author Chapter Author [SUBJECT] Household [COMPILER] Compilers [EDITOR] [SECOND PERSON] Short Compilers [DATE] Publish Date Publish Date [SECOND DATE] [LOCATION] Location [SECOND LOCATION] State [PUBLISHER] Publisher Publisher [PUBLISHER LOCATION] Publisher Address Publisher Address [SERIES] Enumeration District [EDITION] Edition Edition [VERSION] Roll Num Volumes [VOLUMES] Page (stamped) Volume [PAGES] Page (penned) Page Page [REPOSITORY] [REPOSITORY INFO] [REPOSITORY REFERENCE] [FILE REFERENCE] Dwelling OCoLC Number OCoLC Number [RECORD NUMBER] Family OCLC Number OCLC Number [FILM NUMBER] Film Number [COMMENTS] M1 - M3 : Online source M1 - M3 : Online source M1 - M3 : Online source M4 - M7 : Not used M4 - M7 : Not used M4 - M7 : Not used M8 : Comments M8 : Comments M8 : Comments [CITATION DETAILS] CD CD [CITATION REFERENCE] [CITATION MEMO] [REPOSITORY MEMO] RM1: Repository Name RM1: Repository Name RM1: Repository Name RM2: Repository Location RM2: Repository Location RM2: Repository Location RM4: Repository State RM4: Repository State RM4: Repository State The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message