Just to add a bit of clarification on the difference in labs and their tests for genealogy related DNA testing. There was an interesting TV special awhile back with DNA tests by several labs done with samples taken from identical triplets. Only FamilyTreeDNA came back with identical test results for the three girls and this appears to have come from their use of a heavy scraping of the inside of your cheek with a plastic tool to get their sample. Other labs use saliva, which can more easily have contamination in the sample. The other labs showed "close relationship" for the triplets, but not identical. Second is that there are four common "DNA tests" that look at different sections of the DNA string. The "yDNA" test looks at the all male ancestral line, the "mtDNA" test looks at the all female ancestral line, the "autosomal" tests look at portions common to all of your ancestors (maternal and paternal) and short term matches (say 5 or less generations back) are called "cousin finder" results, while the long term matches (potentially thousands of years) provide the ethnicity results. The fourth test looks at propensity to certain medical conditions and has little to do with genealogy unless you are tracking diseases through your family. A third issue is the minimum number of "markers" purchased to provide reliable matches. FamilyTreeDNA used to offer 12-marker and 25 marker yDNA tests until their library got large enough to make it obvious that one needs at least 37 markers to make matches consistently reliable. As part of my New England Ball Project I have contacted a number of test owners and personally paid to have their tests expanded to 37 markers, so they would be useful in my Project. On the other hand paying for any more than a 37-marker test is only useful for a major surname study that is trying to use yDNA to place "brick wall" branches into a tree. A fourth issue comes with the ethnicity percentages......they are the sum of the tests taken at those labs, NOT a comparison to scholarly research done reflecting long-term families in many thousands of regions around the world. A red flag goes up when an Ancestry.com ad saves the girl was 26% native American, it becomes obvious that this was more fabricated than reflective of the last 10-15 generations. 25% or 12.5% or 6.25% then one might look for a recent generation native American.....but 26% just doesn't compute. The most frustrating aspect of these tests is that the various labs all use a slightly different selection of "markers" to measure, so that (surprise, surprise) one cannot readily compare results between labs. I have paid for several tests for my Project to get them redone by FamilyTreeDNA, so I could make sense out of (and have confidence in) the results. Dave Ball Compiler of the New England Ball Project -----Original Message----- From: Jack Lykins via TMG [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 6:41 PM To: [email protected] Cc: Jack Lykins Subject: [TMG] DNA Testing Services It's a bit off topic but would some readers comment on the DNA testing service used and how satisfied you were with the results? Also comment on how those results allowed extending your genealogy research would be interesting. Thanks! Jack subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html

Dave Once you have the FTDNA tests how do you further process them? Ysearch? Gedmatch? And then? iSent from my iPhone; iTypos, iApologize. > On Mar 20, 2018, at 5:39 PM, David Ball <[email protected]> wrote: > > Just to add a bit of clarification on the difference in labs and their tests > for genealogy related DNA testing. There was an interesting TV special > awhile back with DNA tests by several labs done with samples taken from > identical triplets. Only FamilyTreeDNA came back with identical test > results for the three girls and this appears to have come from their use of > a heavy scraping of the inside of your cheek with a plastic tool to get > their sample. Other labs use saliva, which can more easily have > contamination in the sample. The other labs showed "close relationship" for > the triplets, but not identical. > > Second is that there are four common "DNA tests" that look at different > sections of the DNA string. The "yDNA" test looks at the all male ancestral > line, the "mtDNA" test looks at the all female ancestral line, the > "autosomal" tests look at portions common to all of your ancestors (maternal > and paternal) and short term matches (say 5 or less generations back) are > called "cousin finder" results, while the long term matches (potentially > thousands of years) provide the ethnicity results. The fourth test looks at > propensity to certain medical conditions and has little to do with genealogy > unless you are tracking diseases through your family. > > A third issue is the minimum number of "markers" purchased to provide > reliable matches. FamilyTreeDNA used to offer 12-marker and 25 marker yDNA > tests until their library got large enough to make it obvious that one needs > at least 37 markers to make matches consistently reliable. As part of my > New England Ball Project I have contacted a number of test owners and > personally paid to have their tests expanded to 37 markers, so they would be > useful in my Project. On the other hand paying for any more than a > 37-marker test is only useful for a major surname study that is trying to > use yDNA to place "brick wall" branches into a tree. > > A fourth issue comes with the ethnicity percentages......they are the sum of > the tests taken at those labs, NOT a comparison to scholarly research done > reflecting long-term families in many thousands of regions around the world. > A red flag goes up when an Ancestry.com ad saves the girl was 26% native > American, it becomes obvious that this was more fabricated than reflective > of the last 10-15 generations. 25% or 12.5% or 6.25% then one might look > for a recent generation native American.....but 26% just doesn't compute. > > The most frustrating aspect of these tests is that the various labs all use > a slightly different selection of "markers" to measure, so that (surprise, > surprise) one cannot readily compare results between labs. I have paid for > several tests for my Project to get them redone by FamilyTreeDNA, so I could > make sense out of (and have confidence in) the results. > > Dave Ball > Compiler of the New England Ball Project > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jack Lykins via TMG [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 6:41 PM > To: [email protected] > Cc: Jack Lykins > Subject: [TMG] DNA Testing Services > > It's a bit off topic but would some readers comment on the DNA testing > service used and how satisfied you were with the results? Also comment on > how those results allowed extending your genealogy research would be > interesting. Thanks! Jack > subscribe to TMG: > http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html > The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ > Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html > The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ > Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html

Great post, David Ball! I think the ethnic percentages is what most people find amazing/shocking when they get their results. Remember the lederhosen traded in for a kilt commercial by Ancestry?? My maternal ancestry, as far back as I can go, a good eight generations is ALL German/German-speaking, back to a Frauenfelder in early 18th cent. PA. Imagine my shock when my mtDNA shows it to be UK!?!?! Did some Protestant or Catholic female a generation earlier flee to Germany? Or vice versa?? A 2nd cousin whose ancestry was also assumed to be mostly German (and indeed his mother's parents emigrated from Germany as well as his father's mother's parents emigrated from Germany--all late 19th-early 20th century immigrants), well, his Ancestry autosomal results showed essentially NO German ancestry, but a high percentage of Scandinavian. So he's joked about trading in his lederhosen for a horned Viking helmet. Another 2nd cousin, same family but a different branch, took the 23&me autosomal test. It also showed low German ethnicity, but a higher Scandinavian percentage which did not surprise anyone as his mother was native Finnish-Swedish, but what happened to his German/German-speaking ancestry from his father? In one internet video on interpreting DNA results, the commentator noted a high Scandinavian percentage in her ancestry and she brushed it aside by remarking "that happens a lot" with a chuckle of sorts. I also assume that because companies are not digging up 10th-18th graves throughout Europe and elsewhere to test DNA that to a certain degree "hits" reflect where modern(ish?) populations live, not necessarily where one's ancestors lived 1000 years ago or even 500?? I noticed most of these companies do not quite explicitly tease out German ancestry, often throwing it into a Northwestern European category,or French-German, etc. Anyway, thanks David Bell for a great synopsis. Sam On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:39 PM, David Ball <[email protected]> wrote: > > A fourth issue comes with the ethnicity percentages......they are the sum of > the tests taken at those labs, NOT a comparison to scholarly research done > reflecting long-term families in many thousands of regions around the world. > A red flag goes up when an Ancestry.com ad saves the girl was 26% native > American, it becomes obvious that this was more fabricated than reflective > of the last 10-15 generations. 25% or 12.5% or 6.25% then one might look > for a recent generation native American.....but 26% just doesn't compute.

It's important to keep in mind that Europeans moved around more than we might think during the past 2000 years and that the ethnicity estimates are most reliable in terms of northern vs southern, eastern vs western, European (or endogamous unusual groups like Finns and Basques). Think of all those European wars of centuries past in which soldiers doubtless spread considerable DNA about. Not to mention traveling merchants. Karla Huebner calypsospots AT gmail.com On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Blah BlahBlah <[email protected]> wrote: > I think the ethnic percentages is what most people find > amazing/shocking when they get their results. Remember the lederhosen > traded in for a kilt commercial by Ancestry?? >

Anyone who believes Ancestry or other DNA company ads about ethnicity should read these two articles at least https://dna-explained.com/2016/02/10/ethnicity-testing-a-conundrum/ https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry I recommend that before a person gets into DNA testing, they should read the book "The Family Tree Guide to DNA Testing and Genetic Genealogy" by Blaine T. Bettinger. Despite the name, it covers the 3 major companies equally. I recommend you read it if you have already tested too. Although we get 50% of our DNA from each parent, 25% from each grandparent is just an AVERAGE. One real life example where a grandchild and all 4 grandparents were tested produced these results. Paternal grandfather 27.7% Paternal grandmother 26.3% Maternal grandfather 17.7% Maternal grandmother 32.3% This is due to the RANDOMNESS of DNA inheritance. And that randomness is the reason why, after 4 or 5 generations, you have ancestors from whom you received no DNA at all. As you go further and further back you have more and more ancestors from whom you received no DNA at all. Carol Anne On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Karla Huebner <[email protected]> wrote: > It's important to keep in mind that Europeans moved around more than we > might think during the past 2000 years and that the ethnicity estimates are > most reliable in terms of northern vs southern, eastern vs western, > European (or endogamous unusual groups like Finns and Basques). Think of > all those European wars of centuries past in which soldiers doubtless > spread considerable DNA about. Not to mention traveling merchants. > > Karla Huebner > calypsospots AT gmail.com > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Blah BlahBlah <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I think the ethnic percentages is what most people find >> amazing/shocking when they get their results. Remember the lederhosen >> traded in for a kilt commercial by Ancestry?? >> > The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ > Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html > The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ > Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html

One small clarification to that. From our parents, we get EXACTLY 50% from each in normal cases (adjusted by males getting a Y chromosome from dad and a X from mom), as for each of the 23 chromosome we get one side from each parent. This doesn't mean that we get 50% of the tested markers from each side though, so a test might not say exactly 50% from each. Also, due to the gene shuffling at  the creation of the egg and sperm, the chromosomes we get from each parent don't match the exact chromosome they had but is a mixture of the genetics THEY got from their parents. When going back farther generations, yes, randomness kicks in and the fact that you got exactly 50% from your mother, and she got 50% from each of her parents, doesn't imply that you get exactly 25% from each of them. Because of the gene shuffling, I would say that the odds of having ZERO DNA from a person 4 or 5 generations back is actually very remote. But, not having any identifiable DNA from them is quite possible. On 3/23/18 12:28 AM, Carol Anne wrote: > Anyone who believes Ancestry or other DNA company ads about ethnicity > should read these two articles at least > > https://dna-explained.com/2016/02/10/ethnicity-testing-a-conundrum/ > > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/18/genetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry > > I recommend that before a person gets into DNA testing, they should > read the book "The Family Tree Guide to DNA Testing and Genetic > Genealogy" by Blaine T. Bettinger. Despite the name, it covers the 3 > major companies equally. I recommend you read it if you have already > tested too. > > Although we get 50% of our DNA from each parent, 25% from each > grandparent is just an AVERAGE. > > One real life example where a grandchild and all 4 grandparents were > tested produced these results. > > Paternal grandfather 27.7% > Paternal grandmother 26.3% > Maternal grandfather 17.7% > Maternal grandmother 32.3% > > This is due to the RANDOMNESS of DNA inheritance. And that randomness > is the reason why, after 4 or 5 generations, you have ancestors from > whom you received no DNA at all. As you go further and further back > you have more and more ancestors from whom you received no DNA at all. > > Carol Anne > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Karla Huebner <[email protected]> wrote: >> It's important to keep in mind that Europeans moved around more than we >> might think during the past 2000 years and that the ethnicity estimates are >> most reliable in terms of northern vs southern, eastern vs western, >> European (or endogamous unusual groups like Finns and Basques). Think of >> all those European wars of centuries past in which soldiers doubtless >> spread considerable DNA about. Not to mention traveling merchants. >> >> Karla Huebner >> calypsospots AT gmail.com >> >> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Blah BlahBlah <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I think the ethnic percentages is what most people find >>> amazing/shocking when they get their results. Remember the lederhosen >>> traded in for a kilt commercial by Ancestry?? >>> >> The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ >> Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html >> The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ >> Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html > The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ > Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html > The TMG archive is found here: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/TMG/ > Instructions on how to subscribe to TMG: http://lists.rootsweb.ancestry.com/index/other/Software/TMG.html > -- Richard Damon