Dear Diane, Thank you for posting your query to Switz-L. I found your posting to be unusually well organized and therefore I will try to help by providing comments along the way as I re-read your letter. Pete Mattli [email protected] ================================ Subj: [SWITZ] Inheirtence questions Date: 12/18/2002 2:56:14 AM Eastern Standard Time From: <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A> To: <A HREF="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A> Sent from the Internet (Details) In Switzerland, in 1770's, which son usually inheirted the family home & land, when both parents became deceased? I have a family, Jost Grogg & wife Magdalena (nee: Graber) who had two sons, Hans Ulrich (oldest) & Jakob (younger). Magdalena died in 1766 & Jost died in 1776, both in Melchnau, Bern, Switzerland. LDS has filmed church records for the Evang. Reformed church 1569-1875; Zivilstandsampt for Melchnau has records 1875 -present. Would there be land papers or a will that might show if Jost property was handed down, and where or who would I contact to find such papers? Yes. Both wills and land records come under the heading "Notarial Records." Here is what you need to know regarding Notarial records: ========================================== NOTARIAL RECORDS: For records earlier than 1600 it is often productive to specifically insure that the search has included (not skipped) land and notarial-type records. If the search is not personally observed, and thereby assured, records located external to the main archival record bank will often be skipped. This is especially true if they are located in the courthouse, and possibly not yet indexed. And the courthouse may well be in the hometown rather than the city of the Staatsarchiv. I. LAND RECORDS, WILLS, AND OTHER TYPES OF NOTARIAL RECORDS. WILLS (Testamente) The location of wills is a good illustration of the problems in a federated state. Because of the autonomous situation of the cantons, each has developed its own systems and ideas over the years. The earliest wills date back to the twelfth century and they can be found in state or city archives, or in local or district courthouses. Until 1912 the probating (proving) of wills was entirely the responsibility of the cantons. But in that year the law was changed and the responsibility devolved on the federal government. In the case of death, the will has to be submitted to to a judge or other authority who deals with matters of succession for proof of probate, regardless of whether the will has been retained in private hands, or lodged in the office of a notary. Searching for wills, therefore, involves making contact with botrh courts and notaries. However, persistence pays off, and I know of several instances where wills have been eventually found as far back as 1600. NOTARIAL RECORDS (Notariatsregister) These date from the fourteenth century and include: 1) land records (Katasterbücher) which list the inheritors of land for several generations, together with details of their addresses, ages and occupations. 2) marriage contracts (Eheverträge) which were always drawn up whenever property was involved and which give the full names of the couple, their ages, the names of their parents, places of birth, and current residence. 3) inventories (Bestandsaufnahmen) which list all property and possessions left by a deceased, together with the name and age, the address, occupation and the same for surviving family members. 4) mortgages (Hypotheken) which list not only mortgages but also loans against property, contract for real estate sales, and the full names and addresses of the parties invoilved. The more recent of the above records are in the local courthouse (Kantonal- und Amtsgericht). Older records are in the canton and state archives. Many of them have been indexed. II. Land records: They are kept districtwise (a district is a couple of communities together), on the so called Notariat- und Grundbuchamt, an official government office. Old documents always show the Assekuranz-Nummer (the number of the fire insurance), and therefore the Katasterbücher der Brandassekuranz (books of the official fire insurance) are most usefull for family research. These books are kept in the Staatsarchiv (State archives). Every Kanton has one Staatsarchiv. Nowdays every property has an Assekuranz-Nummer and a Kataster-Nummer. The Kataster is a division (classification) of the land, the Assekuranz belongs to the building. So if someone buys a house, he always has the above mentionned 2 numbers (one for the building and one for the land it stands on). The government registers all transfers of property, with grantee and grantor. That has always been that way. Nowadays ( I think since 1996) transfers are are to be published monthly in the Amtsblatt, the official newspaper of the government of each Kanton. Every person can buy it. Before that year it was not easy to find out about transfers of property; it was more or less secret! I think now there is one standard for the whole confederation ( I will find out). For family research it is not advisable to contact the Notariat-and Grundbuchamt (very expensive to get a Grundbuchauszug =extract from the land register).It's better to contact the the State Archives. Some people who do family research also use the Steuerregister (register of income taxes), the Haushaltungsrodel (not in use anymore, an old register of the households) and the Bevölkerungsverzeichnis (a register of the inhabitans). All these books are also kept at the State Archives, as well as the old church records (where, before 1876, birth, death, marriage, babtism was written down, before the State took over these duties). Street addresses: Most Swiss cities and towns have City Directories, with a map of the city and the streets indicated on it. Besides the streets are listed alphabetically. These Directories may be ordered in cities at the Verkehrsverein (tourist information), in small communities at the Gemeindeverwaltung (office of the community council). Old street directories are also available in the libraries. A good thing to remember: always visit home town libraries and courthouses. When visiting local libraries, ask if they have a Sippenbuch on surname _____________. Pete Mattli [email protected] [3-ggg's] ================================================== I have a delimma now, and do not know where to turn for answers. I have managed to put together the family descendants of Ulrich Grogg (married May 1619, Melchnau, Bern, Switzerland) & wife Barbara Jaeggi, for 4 generations down. Then from my husband on up to Jakob Grogg & Maria Jaeggi (married 29 Jul 1762), plus several other descendants of Jakob & Maria Jaeggi Grogg. I know that Jost had a son Jakob, but my instincts keep telling me that our Jakob is NOT the son of Jost. Our Jakob never named a son Jost or a daughter Magdalena. Most of the Baptismal records I have found for Jakob's & Maria's children, the children are named after friends, instead of family. Maria (Jaeggi) Grogg died 2 Dec 1812 as a widow of Jakob. Would there be records in the town of Melchnau which might help me prove the parent of Jakob Grogg that married Maria Jaeggi, other than Church records? Absolutely. First however, please double check to make sure you have checked the right church records. That is because in Switzerland each canton has a state church. In cantons with predominantly catholic church governance, and this went back and forth during the time period of which you are now concerned, the word was frequently passed down from bishops that protestant weddings were not to be conducted in a catholic church (which in many cantons, at some periods, was the only church). Some, therefore, found it difficult if not impossible to have a marriage (consumated by a reformed cleric) properly recorded in a set of records that would be preserved in the same secure manner of other official records of the state church or court legal affairs. Protestants in such straits often knew not where to turn and either emigrated to a protestant area, or to America, or simply became married under whatever circumstances existed at the time. Records of such marriages survived, or failed to survive, depending on the harshness of conditions prevailing at that time in that place. One must also keep in mind that during that period the boundaries of Canton Bern extended much further out than they do today, and at one time, for over 130 years, the cantonal boundaries approximated the entire Bernese Oberland including much land which today belongs to other cantons. And since the boundaries were somewhat fluid, so too were the mix of religious beliefs existing within them. (This problem was somewhat solved with the advent of the "half-canton" wherein instead of one canton there would be two "half-cantons" being in the one case predominantly catholic with the other other half-canton, protestant. That persists today with Switzerland consisting of twenty cantons and six half-cantons.) With this in mind, it would be good to double check that you are looking in the right set of records. To do this, go to: ===== LDS Locations Filmed, #1 http://www2.genealogy.net/gene/reg/CH/ldsloc-m.htm ===== - OR TO - ===== LDS LOCATIONS FILMED, #2 http://german.genealogy.net/gene/reg/CH/ldsloc-m.htm ===== It is possible within a single city for one set of church records to have been filmed, while a set of another denomination was not (and probably was not turned over to the Staatsarchiv where the filming took place). In such cases in-situ research is a must. Or one must even look at the records in the land to which the couple emigrated. One Jakob Grogg died 4 Dec 1808 & calculating his age at time of death, came to born 2 Nov 1738. I went back to Bapt. records and there was NO Jacob/Jakob Grogg born in Nov. or Baptised in Nov of 1738. In this instance, I would check both protestant and catholic church records for evidence of this birth. And to insure a complete search, it might be well to make arrangements with someone in Switzerland to do this search for you. Jost's Grogg's son, Jakob was baptised the first week of Oct. 1738 & you cannot baptise a child a month before he is born, so I am lost & confused. Rechecking ALL records would be my approach. Anyone have suggestions? Dianne Croak (Grogg) ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== Resource Site http://www.rootsweb.com/~chewgw