Even if this list is not meant to discuss German dialects just a few observations (not from a linguist, but a journalist who has been writing in German for all of his professional life): - To avoid the confusion about the meaning of "High German" it might be more appropriate to use the term "Standard German" ("Standardsprache") when referring to the written language. Of course there is also a codex of proper pronounciation for "Standard German" and Wolf is quite correct when he points out that the people in and around Hannover feel that their usage comes closest to the codified "Standardsprache". - The terms "Low German" and "High German" are somewhat misleading when referring to local usage and dialects since "low" carries a negative connotation and "high" a positive one. It might be more appropriate to refer to different usage and dialects in geographical and / or ethnical terms like Westfalian German, Saxonian, Bavarian, Swabian, etc. - Many of this regionally spoken dialects differ not only in pronounciation, but also in vocabulary and grammar from the "Standardsprache". This is especially true for Swiss dialects. Swiss German basically is a spoken south german, allemanic language all of its own, split up in many geographical dialects, hence the terms "Berndeutsch" (Bernese German), "Baseldeutsch" (Basel German), etc. Quite different from Standard German grammar Swiss German for example does not know the future tense but uses the present tense with a temporal adverb indicating the future (Not "He will go", but "He goes tomorrow"). And the past tense is formed exclusively with "to be" and "to have" and the past participle. So a literal translation of "She wrote to me" is possible into standard German ("Sie schrieb mir") , but not into Swiss German. There you have to use "She has written to me" ("Sie hät mer gschribe"). Best regards Peter -- Peter W. Frey CH-5212 Hausen Switzerland pwf@pwf.ch Reserching Birchmeier, Merki (Würenlingen CH 1850 >> OH >> MI, IL, IA) Wolf Seelentag schrieb: >>Von: Posnsrch@aol.com [mailto:Posnsrch@aol.com] >>Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. Dezember 2005 19:27 >> >>In a message dated 12/27/2005 11:30:46 A.M. Central Standard >>Time, wolf.seelentag@swissonline.ch writes: >> >> >>>I can recommend LEO - the dictionary: >>>http://dict.leo.org/?lang=de&lp=ende >>> >>> >>Thank you Wolf, for the site to learn umlaut pronunciations. >>I knew that there was no Swiss German per se. I did not know >>that there were dialects called Basel German, Burn German, etc. >> >>Do you know if the Glarus, CH grandparent would have spoken >>High German? >> >> > >Definitely not ;-). See also below. > > > >>Was it taught at their schools, as High German was taught in >>the Empire of Germany? >> >> > >I really don't want to get into a discussion on German dialects here - >for two reasons: >- it would blow up the list on a topic for which the list is not meant; >- I cannot make any profound statements, as I have never studied German >dialects, I have just lived in different German and English speaking >parts of Europe (plus shorter stays in the US). > >You mention the German Empire - this would limit the discussion to >fairly recent (for a genealogist) times - as the German Empire was >founded in 1871 (if we forget the "good old times" well before the times >most of us deal with in their genealogy). > >Now - what is "High German"? It is basically a written(!) language - and >people around Hannover feel that they have the most accurate >pronounciation of High German - people in other parts of Germany will >dispute that ;-). All we can say for sure is, that there are quite >different pronounciations of this written language - which should really >be distinguished from dialects. > >We have "Low German" as a group of dialects, spoken in the Northern >("lower" = close to sea level) parts of Germany. As the opposite I have >heard "High German" being used for what people in Southern ("higher" = >up the mountains, or at least hills) parts of Germany speak - which has >no connection whatsoever to how the written language "High German" is >pronounced anywhere. > >Now - where do we draw the line between different pronounciations and >different dialects? Use English for comparison - listen to someone from >the Midlands in the UK, someone from Australia, from Pakistan - and >compare it to what your compatriots in Boston or in Dallas are speaking: >are these different pronounciations? or different dialects? or even >different languages? To deal with this seriously, you have to deal with >it in a scientific way - but whatever you call it, this is not my >science ;-). My science is physics, and most of my spare time is spent >on genealogy ;-). > >Best regards - Wolf >__________________ >Wolf Seelentag, Ph.D. >Reherstr. 19 >CH - 9016 St.Gallen >+41 (0) 71 - 288 51 21 >wolf.seelentag@swissonline.ch > > >==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== >Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to >http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html >to unsubscribe > > > >

I have found the discussion of pronunciation and grammar very interesting and useful. I have been writing a young cousin from Sulz, Argovie and while her English is very good, every once in awhile, she will use a phrase that I really have to think about. Now I understand why. I know that this sight is for Swiss genealogy research, but this kind of information is very helpful ito those of us who have very little knowledge of our ancestors native tongue. Thanks to all. Bonnie Miller >From: "Peter W. Frey" <pwf@pwf.ch> >To: SWITZERLAND-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [SWITZ] Re: dialects >Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:16:48 +0100 > >Even if this list is not meant to discuss German dialects just a few >observations (not from a linguist, but a journalist who has been writing >in German for all of his professional life): > >- To avoid the confusion about the meaning of "High German" it might be >more appropriate to use the term "Standard German" ("Standardsprache") >when referring to the written language. Of course there is also a codex of >proper pronounciation for "Standard German" and Wolf is quite correct when >he points out that the people in and around Hannover feel that their usage >comes closest to the codified "Standardsprache". > >- The terms "Low German" and "High German" are somewhat misleading when >referring to local usage and dialects since "low" carries a negative >connotation and "high" a positive one. It might be more appropriate to >refer to different usage and dialects in geographical and / or ethnical >terms like Westfalian German, Saxonian, Bavarian, Swabian, etc. > >- Many of this regionally spoken dialects differ not only in >pronounciation, but also in vocabulary and grammar from the >"Standardsprache". This is especially true for Swiss dialects. Swiss German >basically is a spoken south german, allemanic language all of its own, >split up in many geographical dialects, hence the terms "Berndeutsch" >(Bernese German), "Baseldeutsch" (Basel German), etc. > >Quite different from Standard German grammar Swiss German for example does >not know the future tense but uses the present tense with a temporal adverb >indicating the future (Not "He will go", but "He goes tomorrow"). And the >past tense is formed exclusively with "to be" and "to have" and the past >participle. So a literal translation of "She wrote to me" is possible into >standard German ("Sie schrieb mir") , but not into Swiss German. There you >have to use "She has written to me" ("Sie hät mer gschribe"). > >Best regards >Peter > >-- >Peter W. Frey >CH-5212 Hausen Switzerland >pwf@pwf.ch >Reserching Birchmeier, Merki (Würenlingen CH 1850 >> OH >> MI, IL, IA) > > >Wolf Seelentag schrieb: > >>>Von: Posnsrch@aol.com [mailto:Posnsrch@aol.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. >>>Dezember 2005 19:27 >>> >>>In a message dated 12/27/2005 11:30:46 A.M. Central Standard Time, >>>wolf.seelentag@swissonline.ch writes: >>> >>> >>>>I can recommend LEO - the dictionary: >>>>http://dict.leo.org/?lang=de&lp=ende >>>> >>>> >>>Thank you Wolf, for the site to learn umlaut pronunciations. I knew that >>>there was no Swiss German per se. I did not know that there were dialects >>>called Basel German, Burn German, etc. >>> >>>Do you know if the Glarus, CH grandparent would have spoken High German? >>> >>> >> >>Definitely not ;-). See also below. >> >> >> >>>Was it taught at their schools, as High German was taught in the Empire >>>of Germany? >>> >>> >> >>I really don't want to get into a discussion on German dialects here - >>for two reasons: >>- it would blow up the list on a topic for which the list is not meant; >>- I cannot make any profound statements, as I have never studied German >>dialects, I have just lived in different German and English speaking >>parts of Europe (plus shorter stays in the US). >> >>You mention the German Empire - this would limit the discussion to >>fairly recent (for a genealogist) times - as the German Empire was >>founded in 1871 (if we forget the "good old times" well before the times >>most of us deal with in their genealogy). >> >>Now - what is "High German"? It is basically a written(!) language - and >>people around Hannover feel that they have the most accurate >>pronounciation of High German - people in other parts of Germany will >>dispute that ;-). All we can say for sure is, that there are quite >>different pronounciations of this written language - which should really >>be distinguished from dialects. >> >>We have "Low German" as a group of dialects, spoken in the Northern >>("lower" = close to sea level) parts of Germany. As the opposite I have >>heard "High German" being used for what people in Southern ("higher" = >>up the mountains, or at least hills) parts of Germany speak - which has >>no connection whatsoever to how the written language "High German" is >>pronounced anywhere. >> >>Now - where do we draw the line between different pronounciations and >>different dialects? Use English for comparison - listen to someone from >>the Midlands in the UK, someone from Australia, from Pakistan - and >>compare it to what your compatriots in Boston or in Dallas are speaking: >>are these different pronounciations? or different dialects? or even >>different languages? To deal with this seriously, you have to deal with >>it in a scientific way - but whatever you call it, this is not my >>science ;-). My science is physics, and most of my spare time is spent >>on genealogy ;-). >> >>Best regards - Wolf >>__________________ >>Wolf Seelentag, Ph.D. >>Reherstr. 19 >>CH - 9016 St.Gallen >>+41 (0) 71 - 288 51 21 >>wolf.seelentag@swissonline.ch >> >> >>==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== >>Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to >>http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html >>to unsubscribe >> >> >> >> > > > >==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== >Resource Site >http://www.rootsweb.com/~chewgw >

Dear Wolf and Peter, I enjoyed your remarks on dialects. It needs to be explained once in a while, if only to "justify" us Auslandschweizer (Swiss abroad) who have to keep defending our ill perceived "IQ". For 50 years I've had to bear pitying looks from Americans who know only the term "Hochdeutsch" (high German) and thus readily assume that the rest, including all Swiss , must therefore be speaking "low German". I've tried to change many over to using "Standard German", but by that time their eyes look kind of spaced out ;-) Its much more than the average person wants to know. Since most text we deal with in genealogical research is written in Standard German, [AKA "Schriftdeutsch" in Switzerland/written German], a great dictionary like Langenscheidt's or Cassell's will be the best help. They also instruct us on pronunciation, grammar, measures, weights, and much more. The used book market is usually swamped with great bargains. Try eBay. Hanneli PS. Peter, I never realized that in speaking Swiss German dialect we also "take liberties" in the way we express tenses. How about that..... nothing is safe ;-) Nice hearing from you! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter W. Frey" <pwf@pwf.ch> To: <SWITZERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 1:16 PM Subject: Re: dialects > Reserching Birchmeier, Merki (Würenlingen CH 1850 >> OH >> MI, IL, IA) > > > Wolf Seelentag schrieb: > >>>Von: Posnsrch@aol.com [mailto:Posnsrch@aol.com] Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. >>>Dezember 2005 19:27 >>> >>>In a message dated 12/27/2005 11:30:46 A.M. Central Standard Time, >>>wolf.seelentag@swissonline.ch writes: >>>