Hi everyone, I'm trying to veryify that an ancestor of mine was born in Basel in 1719. I looked on the LDS website for the relevant films, and there were MANY churches in Basel that could be the right one. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I narrow it down? Thanks! ~Michael Messinger~

Dear Lori, the Swiss Family Surname Book (Familiennamenbuch) lists many Places of Origin (Heimatort) where your MICHEL ancestors held citizenship in Switzerland, many before 1799. Several towns are also in the Kanton Graubuenden/Grisons, allbeit not Chur itself, but probably closeby. Since there are so many and I have only one life (little of it left ;-), I'll be glad to scan the full list of Heimatort(e) of MICHEL directly to your personal address. Would you like that? That way you can start scouring local sources in the most obvious places for your ancestors. Browse in the following excellent webs to get a basic understanding. http://www.eye.ch/swissgen/CH-burger-e.html http://www.eye.ch/swissgen/ http://www.eye.ch/swissgen/news-m.htm#news Best wishes, Hannneli ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Laing" <Lori@bccollisions.com> To: <SWITZERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 10:09 AM Subject: Research > Hello to all, > > I am extremely new at this, have absolutely no idea what I am doing & have > very little to go on to start but here goes! > I'm trying to trace my grandfather's roots but have very little info at > this time. His surname was MICHEL, first name Ernest. I do know that he > was born Nov 3 1906? in the Chur area of Switzerland. He had a bother > named Albert(not sure on his Birthday). The boys were orphaned at a young > age. My great grandmother supposedly died when Poppa was about 4, so that > would be around 1910. Great Grandfather (first name Albert) would have > died a short while after that. All I know is than Albert Michel sr was a > train conductor with the Swiss railway & died in a train wreck. My father > thinks it was around 1912. Both boys emigrated to British Columbia, > Canada in their late teens or early 20's. At this point, this is all I > have to go on. Thanks for everyone's time! > > Lori Laing (nee Michel) > lori@bccollions.com > > ______________________________

No, you're not a historian. The framers of the U.S. Constitution relied just as heavily on the Iroqois Confederation that Ben Franklin had observed as publisher of the British treaties with the Indians as early as 1750. And how were the Helveti "liberal"? Because of their government, or what's your basis for crediting them with being "liberal"? Best, Walt JENNY - MUELLER - JUNG through Missouri Edmond OK _________________________ -- Support the TKE Educational Foundation with your online purchases, at no additional cost to you! Simply go to http://www.iGive.com/TEF, sign up, and start shopping! Also, use http://taukappaepsilon.meetup.com/ to promote your TKE alumni meetings!

My understanding of the move of the Celtic Helveti was slightly different. The Romans could not defeat the Helveti because of the terrain and battle tactics they used. The Helveti suffered continous raids from the Germanic tribes though. Caesar controlled Gaul at the time, so in the interest of mutual interest the Helveti requested to pass through Roman controlled territory to attack and destroy the Germanic tibes. Caesar express concern about a large Helveti army passing through his area of control. He gave authorization on condition, that they were not armed, their arms being place in their baggage train. The trusting Helveti leadership, agreed. Tens of thousands of Helveti, their families (as was the custom at the time) with their baggage train in the rear marched into Gaul to invade the Germanic tribes. They never made it. Caesar took the opportunity to finally over come the Helveti and slaughtered most and enslaved the rest. Rome was finally able to over come the Helveti, when they were unarmed, out of their defensive terrain and lead by stupid trusting liberal leadership. The rest was history. Romans then built a series of fortified cities in Switzerland, one of the most important was Basel, at the fork in the lower Rhine river. Long after the Roman Empire fell the Roman fortified cities remained. It was said by Manchivealli, that Basel remained one of the last vistages of the Roman Empire in Europe. Swiss ethic of all men being military trained preceeded the Roman occupation. Evenually, Austria considered it part of their empire and as long as it was too their mutual benefit, the Swiss went along. Ultimately, the bond broke, when the Austrians tired of disagreements and decided to subdue the Swiss once and for all. The king (Leopold) took a well armed army of about 4000-5000 to crush the Helviti. He had several hundred armored knights (shock troops), as well as infantry. What he failed to consider was the military training all Swiss men were required to do. Unlike all other armies at the time, which took hours to deploy for combat, the lightlhy armored Swiss were trained to do this on the march. Thus when they met a Sempach in July of 1209, Leopold saw a deployed army of a few hundred peasants, on a hill in front of him armed with pikes. Intelligent guy that he was, he knew that horses would not charge into the pikes to be impaled. Thus he dismounted his armored knights and sent them as shock troops to disrupt the small force of Swiss. Well, July being what it is and hills what they are, it was said that many of the heavily armed knights either never reached the Swiss and those that did were easily cut down. Then came the infantry charge up the hill, armed much lighter and with weapons similiar to the Swiss, it looked like their superior numbers would have the desired effect. When pikes came to pikes the front lines absorbed the brunt of the fighting. It was a battle of attrition that the Swiss could not win. Suddenly, one Swiss soldier saw that all would be lost and scarificed himself by reaching out pulling as many Austrian pikes into his own body as he could, this openned a hole in the Austrian ranks and inspired the rest of the Swiss. They poured through the opening and slaughtered the Austrians behind the front ranks. The Austrian army fell apart and fled down the hill, King Leopold was killed in the battle and the beginings of the Swiss Republic was born. The Swiss army at Sempach consisted of a hodge podge of militia men from various cantons from all over Switzerland. The fact that they could fight and deploy as a unified force was a credit to their military training and discipline all men in Switzerland are required to participate in to this day. As for the German presents in Switzerland, this was the result most like of trade and not being conquered. A large section of Switzerland is separated from Germany only by a river. The lower Rhine. Marriages across the river were not uncommon. Switzerland is also bordered by France, so another large section has assimulated with the French. The same is true of Italy. Switzerlan d not only shares its Republic status with the United States but, also it is melting pot of ethnic groups. It should be noted the framers of the United States Consitution referred mostly to two civilizations for ideas, one was the Greeks (the first know Republic), the other was the only known current Republic at the time...the Swiss. I'm not a historian, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.... I could have misstated some of this material. But most of history, is written by the victors and should always be suspect. Ed Bienz

I know the vague outlines of the story about the Germanic Allemani influx into Switzerland during the time of Julius Caesar, when the displaced Celtic-speaking Helvetii tried to flee to southeastern France but were pushed back into Switzerland by the Romans. However, were there other mass migrations of peoples into Switzerland from the north 800 years later (Middle Ages?) that are chronicled in Swiss history books? I ask because I and a fellow from the area where England and Scotland come together have been genetically calculated to have shared a common patrilineal ancestor with 95% probability around 1200 years ago, and my ancestors come from western Bern Canton. My guess is that that common ancestor could have an Angle, Saxon, or Jute from somewhere in the coastal areas stretching from todays Netherlands to Denmark. These tribes are well-known to have flooded into Britain after the Romans left, but is it known whether some of them instead migrated south in the direction of Switzerland about 800 AD ? Thanks for any feedback. Dale Bricker

Hello to all, I am extremely new at this, have absolutely no idea what I am doing & have very little to go on to start but here goes! I'm trying to trace my grandfather's roots but have very little info at this time. His surname was MICHEL, first name Ernest. I do know that he was born Nov 3 1906? in the Chur area of Switzerland. He had a bother named Albert(not sure on his Birthday). The boys were orphaned at a young age. My great grandmother supposedly died when Poppa was about 4, so that would be around 1910. Great Grandfather (first name Albert) would have died a short while after that. All I know is than Albert Michel sr was a train conductor with the Swiss railway & died in a train wreck. My father thinks it was around 1912. Both boys emigrated to British Columbia, Canada in their late teens or early 20's. At this point, this is all I have to go on. Thanks for everyone's time! Lori Laing (nee Michel) lori@bccollions.com

Hi Julie, checking the CDs for births/baptisms in Leutwil incl. Duerrenaesch, Boniswil-Oberdorf, Gontenschwil and Zetzwil, Kanton Aargau *) for your Hans Jakob BUCHSER b. 1807, I could not find any entries. So you might wish to check the other Heimatort(e) mentioned: Aarau, Baden, Schlossrued, Schoeftland, Kanton Aargau, and Baetterkinden, Kanton Bern, plus Feldbrunnen-St. Niklaus and Lostorf in Kanton Solothurn. (see the Family Name List I sent you separately) . Best wishes, Hanna Grenny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Reese Bookser" <jrbookse@yahoo.com> To: <SWITZERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 5:59 AM Subject: Buchser > Hello all, > I'm researching my Husband's surname and believe the family came from > Aargau Switzerland. Is anyone out there researching the BUCHSER > surname? > > Hans Jacob Buchser was born on Jul 25, 1807. He married Elizabeth > Brunner. They had 7 children - Jacob, Samuel, Verena, Rosina, > Henriette, Susanna, & Rudolph. Does this family look familiar to > anyone? > > Thanks, > Julie >

> Swiss Surnames Prior to 1862 shows the Möschinger surname in > Häfelfingen, Canton Basel-Landschaft prior to 1799. I don't > see any other name variants or locations listed. Note that if > a family name had died out in a village before 1862 they > would not be listed in this source. Just a minor addition of the last statement - though not relevant in the context of this thread: "Swiss Surnames Prior to 1862" (on CD) is an excerpt of the Swiss Surname Register http://swiss.genealogy.net/famnam-m.htm. This (the latest edition) is based on the status of 1962 - so any surname dying out before 1962 (nineteen-sixty-two) will not be listed in the book. The excerpt on the CD is limited to surnames holding Swiss citizenship prior to 1862 (eighteen-sixty-two) - so any "valid" surnames of 1962 gaining Swiss citizenship after 1862 (like many immigrants from surrounding countries) will not be listed on the CD. Similarily any surname dying out between 1862 and 1962 will not be listed either. What's the point? As I said, not relevant in this case (someone born 1719 being looked for) - but if you are looking for someone born e.g. 1900, the fact that the surname is not listed on the CD does NOT mean you're on the wrong track. The statement I'm referring to is not wrong - it's just not completely correct ;-). I hope I have not confused too many of you, and send my best regards - Wolf __________________ Wolf Seelentag, Ph.D. Reherstr. 19 CH - 9016 St.Gallen +41 (0) 71 - 288 51 21 wolf.seelentag@swissonline.ch

Hi Wolf and List, First a recap : At 05:09 PM 10/5/2005, Wolf Seelentag wrote: > > Swiss Surnames Prior to 1862 shows the Möschinger surname in > > Häfelfingen, Canton Basel-Landschaft prior to 1799. I don't > > see any other name variants or locations listed. Note that if > > a family name had died out in a village before 1862 they > > would not be listed in this source. > >Just a minor addition of the last statement - though not relevant in the >context of this thread: "Swiss Surnames Prior to 1862" (on CD) is an >excerpt of the Swiss Surname Register >http://swiss.genealogy.net/famnam-m.htm. This (the latest edition) is >based on the status of 1962 - so any surname dying out before 1962 >(nineteen-sixty-two) will not be listed in the book. The excerpt on the >CD is limited to surnames holding Swiss citizenship prior to 1862 >(eighteen-sixty-two) - so any "valid" surnames of 1962 gaining Swiss >citizenship after 1862 (like many immigrants from surrounding countries) >will not be listed on the CD. Similarily any surname dying out between >1862 and 1962 will not be listed either. > >What's the point? As I said, not relevant in this case (someone born >1719 being looked for) - but if you are looking for someone born e.g. >1900, the fact that the surname is not listed on the CD does NOT mean >you're on the wrong track. The statement I'm referring to is not wrong - >it's just not completely correct ;-). So please tell me, and the list archives, how to trace the following 2 lines : In 1942 my "cousin's wife" surname CARGILL died in Switzerland (Source The Times of London, Death Notice.) and I suspect cousin James Dudley CARGILL also died in Switzerland. possibly during or just after WW2. James had been a Judge in the Indian Civil Service and had married in India a Miss COMBA who had lived in Italy, where her father was a university professor, before going to India. I do not know where Emile COMBA D.D. was born and wonder if he was Swiss; and they had retired to Switzerland because of that. There were 2 CARGILL children born in India, one trained as a Medical Doctor and came to Canada. The other married, 1924, a gentleman in London, England and is said to have lived in several African and European countries. I would like to know how to trace a death of James CARGILL in Switzerland after 1942 ? And would also like to know if the surname COMBA was ever Swiss ? Looking forward to your advice. Regards to all Jonathan in Toronto, Canada

Hi Michael, Swiss Surnames Prior to 1862 shows the Möschinger surname in Häfelfingen, Canton Basel-Landschaft prior to 1799. I don't see any other name variants or locations listed. Note that if a family name had died out in a village before 1862 they would not be listed in this source. A. B. Faust, "Lists of Swiss Immigrants in the Eighteenth Century to the American Colonies", lists a Barbara Möschinger married to a Hans Bitterlin in Rünenberg, BL. Häfelfingen is only a few kilometers from Rünenberg so this tends to confirm Möschingers in the area. A place to check would be the Basel State Archives (Staatsarchiv des Basel-Stadt) to see if your ancestor appears in the emigration reports. You could also check with the Baselland State Archives (Staatsarchiv des Basel-Landschaft) to see if there is any mention of your ancestor in local land records. The web sites are only in German, however, both archives have been kind enough to respond to my questions in English via both email and post. It helps if you can be as specific as possible about your ancestor. Also, you may want to check the relevant church book available on microfilm from your local LDS Family History Center. The Rümlingen Church Book is the one that includes Häfelfingen. Regards, Jim Rickenbacker Kingwood, TX Home Page: http://borisbrooks.com ---- Original Message ----- From: <mmessinger@macalester.edu> To: <SWITZERLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 11:13 AM Subject: [SWITZ] Michael Messinger born 1719 in Basel > Hi everyone, > During the course of my research I have found that several sources seem to indicate that one of my ancestors was born in Basel, Switzerland in 1719. His name was Michael Messinger (and variants... including Moessinger). His family was German and protestant. They immigrated to the US in 1732. They may have lived around the area of Mossingen or Reutlingen before coming to Basel. I was wondering if anyone is familiar with this time period and area. It would be great if anyone had advice as to how I should procede in trying to veryify that my ancestor did come from Basel, and how to procede if he did. I was wondering what sort of records I shoudl look at / where to find them / etc. Thanks! > > ~Michael Messinger~ > > > ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== > Swiss Resource Site > http://swiss.genealogy.net > >

Hi everyone, During the course of my research I have found that several sources seem to indicate that one of my ancestors was born in Basel, Switzerland in 1719. His name was Michael Messinger (and variants... including Moessinger). His family was German and protestant. They immigrated to the US in 1732. They may have lived around the area of Mossingen or Reutlingen before coming to Basel. I was wondering if anyone is familiar with this time period and area. It would be great if anyone had advice as to how I should procede in trying to veryify that my ancestor did come from Basel, and how to procede if he did. I was wondering what sort of records I shoudl look at / where to find them / etc. Thanks! ~Michael Messinger~

Julie, This is a stab in the dark, so take it for what it's worth. Buchser sounds a little to me like Buchsee. There is a town in Switzerland (Bern Canton, I think) named Buchsee (derived from the German word for boxtree, I think) and others with that name in it such as Muenchenbuchsee. I believe the other towns with that word in their names tend to be close to Buchsee and related in that there was a baron of Buchsee or something who owned/controlled those places. You other, more knowledgeable listers: Is it possible that Buchser is a person from Buchsee? Just a thought that flirted through my skull when I read your message. Regards, Paul +++++++++++++++++++ From: "Julie Reese Bookser" <jrbookse@yahoo.com> To: SWITZERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SWITZ] Buchser Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 08:59:12 -0400 Hello all, I'm researching my Husband's surname and believe the family came from Aargau Switzerland. Is anyone out there researching the BUCHSER surname? Hans Jacob Buchser was born on Jul 25, 1807. He married Elizabeth Brunner. They had 7 children - Jacob, Samuel, Verena, Rosina, Henriette, Susanna, & Rudolph. Does this family look familiar to anyone? Thanks, Julie ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== Resource Site http://www.rootsweb.com/~chewgw

Halo! I am looking for my ancestors from Switzerland or France. One of my ancestors - Joseph Betscha(r) came about 1814-1821 from Kenzingen near to Freiburg (Germany) to Poland. His grandfather - Johann Betscha(r) came before 1724 to Kenzingen, but I do not know where from. It is possible, he came from Muotathal in Switzerland. 1696 born in Muotathal Johann Marti Betschart. I think, it can be the same person. His father was Hans Melchior Betschart (1666-1750), and his mother Dorothea Inderbitzin (d. 1749). Hans Melchior and his wife Dorothea lived in Muotathal, but then they went to Morschach and died there, but not Johann Marti. There is no indication of his death. I suppose, my ancestor and Johann Marti are the same person, or my Joseph could be from Alsace, but I have no idea where from. What do you think about it? Can anybody help me? D.J. Betscher

Hello all, I'm researching my Husband's surname and believe the family came from Aargau Switzerland. Is anyone out there researching the BUCHSER surname? Hans Jacob Buchser was born on Jul 25, 1807. He married Elizabeth Brunner. They had 7 children - Jacob, Samuel, Verena, Rosina, Henriette, Susanna, & Rudolph. Does this family look familiar to anyone? Thanks, Julie

Surname confirmation needed. I am trying to confirm the Hottinger surname from Basel, Switzerland. Could someone direct me to a resource to lookup? Laura smokindogs@sbcglobal.net

I am trying to find out which of the following surnames are rooted in villages in Baselland. Some I believe I know: Brugger in Muttenz, Tschudi in Sissach, and Buser in Ruemlingen and/or Bubendorf. But how about Danner, Beiler, and Ruber? Is Neuenschwander limited to Bern? There is a group of men whose names appear clustered together on the ship's list of the "Crown", which sailed into Philadelphia in 1749. Thanks very much. Dale Bricker

Rick, You wrote: Before the FHL could actually post scans of entire church books on their website, permission would have to be obtained, in this case, from the Bern State Archives, as they are the copyright holder. You wrote: For records in the past where the LDS Church actually did the microfilming (whether in the United States or elsewhere) they are having to recontact those repositories to obtain permission before they can place scans of those records on-line. You wrote: In cases where they have purchased microfilms but did not do the microfilming (as the Canton Bern church records) they would need to obtain permission from the copyright holder/publisher of the microfilm. You wrote: Considering that the Bern Archives apparently worked out a financial deal with Picton Press for them to sell CDs of those church records, I would not be optimistic of actual scans of those church books ever appearing on the (free) FHL website. Me: I was aware that distribution rights for almost all of the films will have to be renegotiated and that will take time. I thought it "goes without saying." That's one reason it takes a moving force with the will and means to organize and facilitate this. You wrote: Even in cases where permission for past LDS microfilming or purchased microfilms is not obtained, indexes to those films would be a big benefit. Me: Amen. In the meantime, no one should hold back because of all the legal work needs to be done. There will be plenty of volunteer work to be done. Paul

Hi Paul, I wanted to point out one thing regarding indexing versus viewing an image of that page someday on the FHL website. Many of the church records for Switzerland (for example Canton Bern) were not microfilmed by the FHL, but in the case of Canton Bern, were done by the Bern State Archives. What the FHL did was purchase a copy of those films, they being a publication of the Bern State Archives. Before the FHL could actually post scans of entire church books on their website, permission would have to be obtained, in this case, from the Bern State Archives, as they are the copyright holder. In all current contracts the LDS Church negotiates with any repository, the contracts include whether those images may be placed on the Internet, or only viewable on the microfilm. For records in the past where the LDS Church actually did the microfilming (whether in the United States or elsewhere) they are having to recontact those repositories to obtain permission before they can place scans of those records on-line. In cases where they have purchased microfilms but did not do the microfilming (as the Canton Bern church records) they would need to obtain permission from the copyright holder/publisher of the microfilm. Considering that the Bern Archives apparently worked out a financial deal with Picton Press for them to sell CDs of those church records, I would not be optimistic of actual scans of those church books ever appearing on the (free) FHL website. Even in cases where permission for past LDS microfilming or purchased microfilms is not obtained, indexes to those films would be a big benefit. Rick Saunders

Paul, Thank you for this information. I will check the link you've provided. Thanks again..... Marjorie

Every day this list gets the kind of request I show below and I suspect all European lists get the same. Request Example: Johann XXXXXXX was born in Switzerland. Came to United States. Was born in YYYY. I would like to find where exactly he came. etc. The researcher who has this type of query is left with the job of searching for a very small needle in a rather large haystack. The answer? If somehow all the names in OLD Swiss (and German and French etc) parishbooks and other archived OLD records were indexed, then the researcher could search similar names in that birth year (or approximate birth year) in Switzerland. The list of possibilities (size of haystack) could be reduced drastically, to between one and a few dozen parishes. Who will do the indexing? It would take a million volunteers, nicht wahr? But when it's done, it would be a tremendous tool. Again, who are those little elves who will spend a few hours each month to help get this project done? And who will organize it and pay for the infrastructure? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints recently announced that it would organize and pay for the infrastructure. It's members will be asked to volunteer their time to index the records (extracting names from birth records, for example). They've been doing this for years but the new program takes much of the operational tedium off from the shoulders of regional and stake extraction directors. But the Church has 2 million microfilms and each film with thousands of entries and each one must be extracted and indexed. The goal is to make all of this available on-line someday at no charge to the researcher. In the example above, you would find the possible Johann XXXXXX's in the on-line index and immediately call up a digital scan of those birth records (for example) to check out your idea. Similar to Ancestry.com only no cost to user. It will take decades. But to reduce the time to completion, the Church is inviting anyone to help, whether LDS member or not, in this effort. The hope is that a million volunteers from around the world will get involved from their PC's in their homes for two or more hours per month or more. Each of us gets major benefit from the access to old records that the Church has organized and paid for. We'll get much more in the future. Why not consider becoming part of the mass of volunteers? Why not give a little back for all that we take and will take in the future? Here is an article about the project: http://www.rader.org/LDSmicrofilmInternet.htm Here is the FamilySearch Indexing website: http://www.ldsindexing.org I suggest you go and snoop around the web site, read the FAQ's, get comfortable. Send in your name to be on the list when it's open for volunteers or just sit back and wait to hear how it's going so you won't be afraid to volunteer later. The Church says that an "official" announcement will be made in 2006. I say, go and look at the future now. Paul