Hi LIst, If anyone knows which church archives that Lorraine should write to for marriage licenses from Aargau, would you please post it on the list? I, and probably many others, would like to know also. TIA, Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

Ernie and List, In USA, Havre it would be rhyhm with Favre's last name (MY great football hero!) The sound of the traditional "H", plus "AHH", then traditional "V" sound, with a very teeny sound of an "RRR" at the end. The "R" is almost not heard. The Le ryhms with the l-e in "Let". Now overseas, we will have to hear from some others. PS> Also you glide over the LEH in LeHavre so it sounds almost like one syllable. Ending e is silent. Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

Hi Ernie and list, Yes, 100 years make a LOT of difference in the emigration procedures...even the 20-30 yrs when Clair's ancestors returned for a visit, makes a great difference. It certainly is a mystery to be solved - with lots of speculation, great interest, and many hours of fun. I appreciate all the data, input and thoughts that are shared on this list in such a kindly manner. Genealogy is the 2nd greatest USA hobby - after gardening - so there are many of "us" out there. Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

Nellie and all Listers: People going out of those landlocked ports walked a lot, took river boats when it was necessary. It takes a lot of guessing, with facts on geography and history at hand, to come up with a solutions. I'm sure you've already done that. When my Hausslis came from northern Switzerland in 1738-39, out of Rotterdam on the Jamaica Galley things must have been a lot different than they were a century later that we are hearing most about.Sounds like a black slavery ship, doesn't it. My contribution to these very interesting questions are included in my book: "A Stroll through Egypt and Paradise (S.Ill. and Ky.). Ernie Heltsley Ernie

Hi Larry and list, I think I have at least one answer for you here! :) I HOPE that this is a copying error....I think that sinsse ir really suisse. The UI and the IN would look quite similar in some cursive or print! So all that would mean is that they were from CH (Switzerland). Suisse, Swiss, Schweiz, Svizzera, Svizra, Confoederatio Helvitica, CH (which you probably know is the official abbreviation for Switzerland from the Roman name Confederate Helvitca) all mean Switzerland. (which doesn't help your search, but solves the puzzle of sinsse) HOPE that is the solution to that mystery! Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

Hi Claire, Ernie, Bill and list, Yes, and I too, heard that the British ships made stops in Wales, Scotland, etc. but I am completely unfamiliar with that. If the ships made stops there, they would have picked up supplies, etc. I hadn't even thought of that area. It certainly is logical to stop along those routes to exchange people and supplies. (I had heard that the White Star Line used to just hose down their English ships after hauling cattle and put the emigrants in the same area!) :( (As an excuse for my ignorance, I have to say that none of my ancestors came from Great Britain, so I have not studied it as much.) :) I had not heard that indentured servants were "dropped off" before they came to America, but I had heard that many English came over here already contracted to work for a person from 5-10 years, with many contracts signed for 7 years. And that the Americans paid for their passage prior to the trip. Sounds pretty desperate. I also heard that England sent over many convicts and orphans, but again, I am absolutely not schooled in English emmigrations. Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

The book, "America Experienced, Eighteenth and Nineteenth Century Accounts of Swiss Immigrants to the United States", has a large number of first person accounts of immigrants written between 1704 and 1906. This is a great book if you are interested in the immigrants. It has been out of print for a while but is now available again from Picton Press. My particular interest is early eighteenth century immigration to South Carolina. The most common route at that time was Rotterdam to Cowes, England (Isle of Wright) to Charleston, SC to Philadelphia, PA, then back to Europe. This was the traditional sailing route taking advantage of prevailing winds and currents. My ancestors voyage, which was described as: "During the whole voyage we had steadily good wind and weather ...", took 9 weeks from Rotterdam to Charleston in early summer, 1735. Immigration to Carolina was being heavily promoted in Switzerland in the early eighteenth century and some Swiss officials dubbed the madness "Rabies Carolina". Some of the promotional pamphlets being circulated in Switzerland at the time are on our society's website: http://www.ogsgs.org/recruit.htm. Jim Rickenbacker Kingwood, TX Home Page: http://borisbrooks.com OGSGS Home Page: http://ogsgs.org

Nellie and other Listers, I read about dropping off and stranding passengers was on the way over to America on the stops in England. If a passenger hadn't paid all his fare and couldn't raise it through bounty and contract systems they used to enslave immigrants for 10 and more years they dropped them off or sold them. Many wound up not in America but in Ireland, Scotland,Wales. Many were lucky to get to America alive. Ernie

Nellie and other Listers: What is the correct pronunciation of LeHavre? Don't know much about French. Sad to say I researched my whole book, including a lot on my 1738 Haussli family coming over, and never heard anyone pronounce LeHavre. Thanks, Ernie Heltsley

Hi Nellie and List, Thanks for your reply. Let me try to explain more thoroughly. 1. This is how the "Germans to America" lists record. Passenger- Martin Mueller and 9 other family members and ages, Destination- USA, Province- SR for Switzerland, Village- 000 for Obermoellrich (which is about 300 miles NE of Basel Switz.), ship- Leonidas, from- Havre, To- New York, arrived- 09 November 1852. I am wondering if the Obermollrich is wrong. Because if they left from Obermollrich you would suspect they would have left from the port of Rotterdam which would have been closer and about 200 miles versus 500 miles to Le Havre. 2.This is how "NY Passenger List 1851-1891 of Ancestry.com" lists the record. Name- Martin Muller, arrival date- 9 Nov 1852, port of departure- Le Havre, France, destination- New York, ship- Leonidas, place of origin- Sinsse, microfilm roll- 121. This conflicts in point of origin with #1 above. I cannot find Sinsse? Can anyone help find Sinsse and how would they have migrated to Le Havre from there. Remember, the family was living in Nusshof, Baselland, Switz. prior to emigrating. Thanks, Larry ldb67@zoominternet.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Posnsrch@aol.com To: ldb67@zoominternet.net ; SWITZERLAND-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Martin Miller (Mueller, Muller) migration Hi Larry and list, I am not real good at geography of that area, but I think that Württemburg (or Württemberg - which I think is the more modern spelling) is a great AREA of Germany, not a town. The towns are Stuttgart and Heidelberg and the area contains the wonderful Black Forest. You would need a town name to do a search...if I am correct. Also, you say that Germans to America states that they left from Basel to New York...but Basel is landlocked and hundreds of miles from the Ports. You would need to find the exact port the ship left from...if I am correct. You later mention Le Havre. Is that the port where the ship left? You ask: How might I go about finding how Martin migrated to Basel-Landschaft in the community of Nusshof or Wintersingen? Did you state that the city of Basel and Nusshof are only 13 miles apart? They probably moved with horse and wagon. I don't know how closely you follow the list, but if you get no responses regarding the routes from Basel to Le Havre, check the archives...there has been quite a lively discussion and Erich and Jacques, who both live in Europe, have put some light on the subject. Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root diggerW

Hi again, Linda, I see that Cevio is in the Italian canton of Ticino, so your ancestor probably did indeed speak Italian. There is no common language of Switzerland. Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

Hi Linda, You say that your ancestor "landed" at NY, and then proceeded to Panama Canal. Did he change ships? Or did the same ship continue on through the Canal after dropping passengers at NY? If you have the date and name of ship, it should tell you the last destination and that final date of arrival. Sounds like an interesting situation. Also, you state that even though he was from Switzerland, he shows up on Germans to America. A lot of the Swiss emigrants are on the Germans to America CDs because they were German. (Now, the CDs may even include the Swiss from the French and Italian cantons of CH.) Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

Hi Larry and list, I am not real good at geography of that area, but I think that Württemburg (or Württemberg - which I think is the more modern spelling) is a great AREA of Germany, not a town. The towns are Stuttgart and Heidelberg and the area contains the wonderful Black Forest. You would need a town name to do a search...if I am correct. Also, you say that Germans to America states that they left from Basel to New York...but Basel is landlocked and hundreds of miles from the Ports. You would need to find the exact port the ship left from...if I am correct. You later mention Le Havre. Is that the port where the ship left? You ask: How might I go about finding how Martin migrated to Basel-Landschaft in the community of Nusshof or Wintersingen? Did you state that the city of Basel and Nusshof are only 13 miles apart? They probably moved with horse and wagon. I don't know how closely you follow the list, but if you get no responses regarding the routes from Basel to Le Havre, check the archives...there has been quite a lively discussion and Erich and Jacques, who both live in Europe, have put some light on the subject. Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root diggerW

Hi List, My GG-Grandfather Martin (Mueller, Muller) Miller (1808-1873) brought his family from Basel Switzerland to port of New York in Nov 1852 on ship Leonidas, according to "Germans to America". He then migrated to Tonawanda, NY and about 1858 to Jefferson Co. Pa. Martin was born in Lubbenau, Brandenburg, Ger. about 530 miles from Basel. His wife was Anna Marie Socin Sutsel (1810-1876) born in Wurtemburg, Ger. How might I go about finding how Martin migrated to Basel-Landschaft in the community of Nusshof or Wintersingen? My G-Grandfather John Miller (1850-1931) and his 7 siblings were all born in the Nusshof area. In 1852, how and what route would they likely have taken to get to the French Port of Le Havre which is 477 miles from Basel City? Nusshof is only 13 miles southeast of city of Basel. Hope someone can help me trace route of ancestors emigrating from Switzerland. Also, any additional help on how to identify Martin or Anna's parents. It is assumed but not confirmed that Martin's parents are Christian Mueller and Anna Lobback. Does anyone else share these ancestors? Thanks, Larry Baughman LDB67@zoominternet.net

hi listers, i have a question about a person in 1866 landing in New York,on 12 January 1867 but then proceeded via the Panama Cannal to San francisco,CA. How would this person have been listed at that time? as landing or did they just by-pass them? His name shows up on the Germans to America List but was from Cevio, Switzerland. Then port of entry as Angel Island, Marin Co. CA? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. TIA. ~Linda~ Hawkins Bar, CA.

In a message dated 11/26/2005 2:45:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, BREATAX writes: There's also Wurtenburg, and don't forget England. BILL WELLS Anaheim California _BREATAX@AOL.COM_ (mailto:BREATAX@AOL.COM) Hi again, Bill, Although there is indeed England, I don't think the English ships from Liverpool, London or Southhamption took passengers or goods to or from LeHavre, Bremen, or Hamburg...They are just too far away. So I don't know where they would stop to pick up passengers and supplies. If you left Hamburg, for an indirect route, you were shuttled across the North Sea to Hull, England and then had to go overland to Liverpool, London, or Southhampton. (Usually Liverpool). WAY out of the way for ships to stop at Hamburg, Bremen or LeHavre on their way back to the west side of England. As far as Württemburg, isn't that a large land-locked section of Germany - Baden-Württemburg - inland with France and Switzerland on two sides? I don't think that was a port. Maybe Erich or Jacques could help us here...I don't really know...but this makes for interesting thought. Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

In a message dated 11/26/2005 1:57:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, BREATAX@aol.com writes: Many of the ships would stop off along the way and drop off passengers and pick up passengers and food staples, and trading supplies. BILL WELLS Anaheim California BREATAX@AOL.COM Hi Bill, would those ships be going back to Hamburg? Would they stop at LeHavre or Bremen on their way home? There doesn't seem to be a lot of ports to stop at, or are there more? I know there was Antwerp too... Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

Many of the ships would stop off along the way and drop off passengers and pick up passengers and food staples, and trading supplies. BILL WELLS Anaheim California BREATAX@AOL.COM

In a message dated 11/26/2005 12:01:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, HELTSLEY@aol.com writes: The exchanges on Germanic immigrants leaving from Le Havre, but isn't it true different ports were popular at different periods of history, depending largely on the needs of the big shipping vessels. They shipped our ancestors to America and picked up cotton etc. from America back to Europe. I'm sure you know that, but I didn't see it in what I read so far. Mine, probably Haussli, came from that area where France, Germany and Switzerland meet, but went out of Rotterdam in 1738-39, via England, and to Philadelphia. Good hunting! Ernie Heltsley Hello Ernie and list, Yes, from what I know, many passenger ships carried cargo to Europe on their return voyages; others strictly carried passengers and luggage back to Europe. My Swiss family came over on a sailing ship in 1853 before the "big rush" of immigrants (and before the big passenger liners were built) and they came over in ballast. (meaning, absolutely no cargo, just luggage and passengers.) Some ships went back the same way. Lots of people made the return trip to Europe: anyone sick, of course, had to return home (eye disease and TB was most prominent). Any mentally impaired passengers were sent back. Any one known for criminal activity (I don't know how the port authorities would know this though...maybe another lister does). And many wealthy Americans traveled back and forth also. Then of course, the liners didn't want to disturb the bunk and eating quarters for steerage passengers each time on a return trip, so did not usually put supplies in that area when returning to Europe. (It would have just been too expensive to repair or replace for each trip.) Then again, many of the larger passenger ships had 8 "floors" so had plenty of room for cargo. Of course, Bremmen (really the port was Bremenhaven) was much more popular than the farther north Hamburg (the port was actually Cuxhaven) until a Jewish man by the name of Albert Bellin, headed HAPAG, organized Hamburg, built new buildings to house emigrants, cleaned out and made new channels, bought a fleet of ocean liners, lowered the steerage price, made a safer harbor, and marketed his policies. Then Hamburg became the larger port (and history shows that more people emigrated from there). Bellin said he became rich on the steerage passengers, because even though he charged little, he could get so many on each ship. The first ocean passenger vessel - built in Germany - was the Rugia, and as a young girl, my grandmother left from Hamburg and arrived to Ellis on that vessel. (1892). All of the first passenger ships continued to keep their sails (if you have photos of your family's ship you can see that) because many times the rudders/engines would fall into the sea and they had to finish their trip via sails! On the same trip as my grandma's (same dates, different ship) there was a storm at sea. One ship (not the one my grandma was on) had to throw all their cargo over the side. They were carrying salt to America. Well, that didn't help, the ship broke, and another ship picked up the passengers and brought them to safety. If you know your ship's name and date of arrival, check the NY newspaper. They listed daily arrivals and interesting articles. I really don't know about the actual port of Le Havre...other than many ships from Hamburg stopped at Havre on their way to America (this was still considered a direct sail, not indirect.) Maybe another lister knows about Le Havre. Hope this has been of interest to some of you, Regards from Texas, USA Nellie, a 68-yr-old root digger

The exchanges on Germanic immigrants leaving from Le Havre, but isn't it true different ports were popular at different periods of history, depending largely on the needs of the big shipping vessels. They shipped our ancestors to America and picked up cotton etc. from America back to Europe. I'm sure you know that, but I didn't see it in what I read so far. Mine, probably Haussli, came from that area where France, Germany and Switzerland meet, but went out of Rotterdam in 1738-39, via England, and to Philadelphia. Good hunting! Ernie Heltsley