I heard from someone today that the bodies are only in the graves for 1 year and then the bones are removed (New Orleans). Can anyone confirm this? Claire ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 1:04 PM Subject: [SWITZ] Burial New Orleans Style This discussion wouldn't be complete for me without telling how New Orleans, La. USA does it. Because of the Mississippi River and other waterways dumping in at New Orleans, La., the place is one of the most saturated in the world. Because of it, burials are in stone vaults, bodies stacked on top of one another, I guess, because the weight is needed to hold a normal pine box under the ground. Ernie Heltsley ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html to unsubscribe

Cremains is a common word in the US. According to my Websters, it originated in 1945-1950. Ruth At 01:01 PM 9/20/2002 -0600, you wrote: >_X-Message: #2 >Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:46:33 +0200 >From: Kjell Ove Hattrem <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Message-ID: <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Cemetery use >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Marlena Amalfitano: > >>When I was in Switzerland, this spring, I asked about this and was told >>the family has the use of the grave for 50 years for a particular person, >>then they are cremated and the family decides what to do with the cremains. > >Did you invent the word 'cremains'? I have never seen it before, and I >think it's a nice amalgam of 'cremate' and 'remains'. > >Kjell O. Hattrem

This discussion wouldn't be complete for me without telling how New Orleans, La. USA does it. Because of the Mississippi River and other waterways dumping in at New Orleans, La., the place is one of the most saturated in the world. Because of it, burials are in stone vaults, bodies stacked on top of one another, I guess, because the weight is needed to hold a normal pine box under the ground. Ernie Heltsley

Ernie... I hadn't ever heard that before. What a concept. Along the upper Mississippi, during flood times, many old and unknown burials have been washed away. At one point, the bank along a portion of the Mississippi River was honeycombed with portions of caskets protruding. Quite a sobering sight. Then there are the various practices of the American Indian tribes, from elevating their dead on a wooden structure to let the corpse decay, to merely piling stones over the dead, to the actual Indian mounds of days gone by, etc. ---------------------- From: [email protected]

While reading the various comments on cemetery use, I get the impression that embalming is very common in the U.S. Can someone give me an answer on this? Here in Australia I believe it is done very rarely, the only time I have heard of embalming being done was for a man who died in Europe and was flown home. I am the secretary of our local cemetery trust and there is no limited tenure on the plots, but in the bigger cities, I know that some only have a tenure for 20 - 30 years. Our cemetery is looked after by the community and we hold regular working bees to look after it. Joan Vivian [email protected] Searching for VIVIAN/VYVYAN, MORESI, TURIN, HOLMES, JUDD, JENKYN, QUICK

Joan: In the US embalming is the most prevalent process for preparing bodies for burial. An interesting book on Embalming is "How to Embalm Your Mother-in-Law: All You Ever Wanted to Know about What Happens between Your Last Breath and the First Spadeful" by Robert T. Hatch. The title is amusing but if more people read this book they might be a little less enthusiastic about embalming. Pam Researching: Rohner, Wiedmer, Ruesch, Engol, Schoeni and Krall

One year I visited my mothers family in Arkansas where they hold an annual family reunion. It is held at the beautiful family cemetery with a little church on the site. During the reunion they have a "decoration", where everyone decorates all of the graves and takes pictures of the headstones or makes pencil etchings of them. Everyone shares stories of our dead relatives and new members of the family are made record of in the "tree". It is an unusual custom but I found that it was a treasure for the genealogists in the family. Fortunately, there is more than enough land to go around in Arkansas which gave us the opportunity to learn about our ancestors who were early settlers in the territory and to learn about their immigration patterns.

Hi Joan, Yes, embalming is very common in the US, although cremation is becoming more and more popular now that the Catholic Church doesn't seem to be so against it as in days gone by. In some states, embalming (or cremation) is mandatory if a body cannot be buried within 72 hours. Also, it's my experience that grave lots which have been purchased but unused can be reclaimed by the cemetery after 80 years (although cemeteries seldom do this). I don't know of any cases where bodies have been removed to make room for others. Maybe that will begin to change in the larger metropolitan areas of the US. Marjorie ---------- From: K & J Vivian <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Fw: [SWITZ] Cemetery use and embalming Date: Thursday, September 19, 2002 5:42 PM While reading the various comments on cemetery use, I get the impression that embalming is very common in the U.S. Can someone give me an answer on this? Here in Australia I believe it is done very rarely, the only time I have heard of embalming being done was for a man who died in Europe and was flown home. I am the secretary of our local cemetery trust and there is no limited tenure on the plots, but in the bigger cities, I know that some only have a tenure for 20 - 30 years. Our cemetery is looked after by the community and we hold regular working bees to look after it. Joan Vivian [email protected] Searching for VIVIAN/VYVYAN, MORESI, TURIN, HOLMES, JUDD, JENKYN, QUICK ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html to unsubscribe

Hi Janet, Small differences are common, especially if your information from the U.S. of his birthdate comes from a calculated date from an age at death. My ancester Johannes ZIMMERMANN (John ZIMMERMAN) in the baptismal records at Wattenwil, Canton Bern, is listed as born 7 May 1802 and baptized on the 16th. Both his tombstone and church records where he died in Ragersville, Tuscarawas Co., OH list he died 29 Dec. 1870, age 68 years, 7 months, 26 days. [= 3 May 1802] John wife Elisabeth WENGER in the church records was born 22 Dec. 1798, bap. 30 December. Her cemetery inscription gives died 3 Apr. 1878, age 79y, 3mo, 8d. [= 25/6 Dec. 1798] U.S. church records state she died was born 25 Dec. 1798, died 2 Apr. 1878, age 79y, 3m, 2d. John's brother Daniel in the Swiss church records was born 28 Nov. 1791, bap. 9 December. His cemetery inscription is died 16 Oct. 1843, age 51y, 11m, 5d. [= 11 Nov. 1791] If you have U.S. sources showing the village of origin, then by examining those church records, you should be able to determine if you have the correct family, or just a coincidence of others of the same names born within a few days at the same village. If what you do not know their village of origin from U.S. sources, and that is what you are trying to verify--that you have the correct village, then look at their neigbors in the U.S. If you can find some of them were from the same village by mathing up their records, and also find no later records (marriages, deaths) for your presumed ancestors at that village in Switzerland, you probably have the right family. It is not all uncommon for a marriage date to be "moved" to an earlier time, if the first child was born before the actual marriage. Sometimes this wasn't done by the couple themselves, and may have been well known among their children, but done by the children or grandchildren to "hide" the fact from the generation younger than they were. Rick Saunders http://genealogypro.com/fsaunders.html

My brother bought a farm in Upstate NY and some of the walkway stones also were gravestones when they turned them over. His barn had a date in it from the late 1700's. Claire ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Swiss Cemeteries The current "line" brings to mind a story my grandmother used to tell. She was born and raised in Quincy, Illinois. When her grandparents died, her father had a simple headstone erected. Some years later when he became more prosperous, he replaced it with substantial monument. The old stone was set aside. Her mother, thrifty German that she was, couldn't see that "nice piece of marble going to waste," so she had it carted home, turned inscription side down, and placed it outside the kitchen door as a "stoop." Years later, after the property had passed into other hands, the occupant reported to the local paper that he had a recurring dream that every time he passed over the step, he had felt that he was stepping on a tombstone. One day he turned the stone over and found the truth! I still have the clipping. Gene Huber ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html to unsubscribe nothing in message

I totally agree........... I felt that I was walking in my family's footsteps when I was there. But then again, Switzerland retains and maintains their history and their buildings -- not like here, where neighborhoods are torn down and made "new". Claire ----- Original Message ----- From: Marlena Amalfitano To: Walter Boppart Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Cemetery use Amen! There is nothing wrong with being fertilizer or whatever the remains are used for. Village etc records are enough for me. It is, in my opinion silly to waste so much money and space on dead bodies, especially when the cemeteries are no longer cared for - that IS disrespect. I would much rather remember a life, a culture than a pathetic looking overgrown cemetery. When I was in Switzerland, it was very moving to be in the towns and villages and churches of my ancestors - to see their mountains, to eat their food, visit their homes, worship where they worshipped, wade in a creek they waded in. The cemeteries were nice, but the rest brought them alive as people. Off my soap box.. M ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Boppart Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:14 PM To: Marlena Amalfitano; [email protected] Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Cemetery use My mother's grave was 'closed' last years after 18 years. (St. Gallen; it varies from place to place).If there are 'family', they are sought and told to take the grave stone by MM/YYYY. Else it will be disposed of. The bones still found are either cremated or buried in mass a grave. That's the way it should be. What a waste: the Canadian/ American graves for whom no one care any longer! Walter in Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marlena Amalfitano" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:10 PM Subject: [SWITZ] Cemetery use > When I was in Switzerland, this spring, I asked about this and was told the family has the use of the grave for 50 years for a particular person, then they are cremated and the family decides what to do with the cremains. There simply isn't room. > > Marlena Amalfitano > [email protected] > > > ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html > to unsubscribe > > ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html to unsubscribe

Listers... I find this discussion fascinating...In the newer sections of the cemetary near the Lutheran Church In Schwartzenburg I found my ancestral names several times. Along side the church, between the sidewalk and church, I found the first sighting of my paternal gt. grand-mothers maiden name. This appeared to be a grave site. I was told; by those more fleet of foot, that there were older graves in the back of the Cemetary...which was located below the hill on which the Church stood. I regret, to this day that I didn't insist in spending more time there,,, As Barilynn pointed out, perhaps 40 yrs. could be considered "old" graves ? Eulah

This is the second message from you that I've received. I'm not posting messages many times. I'm simply replying to all of yours. ---------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Fw: [SWITZ] Swiss Cemeteries Date: Thursday, September 19, 2002 2:01 PM Do not post your message many times your filing up the hard drives with the same message why ???????????

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I haven't posted a request many times. ? ---------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Swiss Cemeteries Date: Thursday, September 19, 2002 1:59 PM Correct message received, do not post your request so many times. Your filing up one's memory hard drives over & over again many times. Why??????????

----- Original Message ----- From: Marlena Amalfitano To: Walter Boppart Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Cemetery use Amen! There is nothing wrong with being fertilizer or whatever the remains are used for. Village etc records are enough for me. It is, in my opinion silly to waste so much money and space on dead bodies, especially when the cemeteries are no longer cared for - that IS disrespect. I would much rather remember a life, a culture than a pathetic looking overgrown cemetery. When I was in Switzerland, it was very moving to be in the towns and villages and churches of my ancestors - to see their mountains, to eat their food, visit their homes, worship where they worshipped, wade in a creek they waded in. The cemeteries were nice, but the rest brought them alive as people. Off my soap box.. M ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Boppart Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:14 PM To: Marlena Amalfitano; [email protected] Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Cemetery use My mother's grave was 'closed' last years after 18 years. (St. Gallen; it varies from place to place).If there are 'family', they are sought and told to take the grave stone by MM/YYYY. Else it will be disposed of. The bones still found are either cremated or buried in mass a grave. That's the way it should be. What a waste: the Canadian/ American graves for whom no one care any longer! Walter in Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marlena Amalfitano" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:10 PM Subject: [SWITZ] Cemetery use > When I was in Switzerland, this spring, I asked about this and was told the family has the use of the grave for 50 years for a particular person, then they are cremated and the family decides what to do with the cremains. There simply isn't room. > > Marlena Amalfitano > [email protected] > > > ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html > to unsubscribe > >

Hi Listers... Am I the only one receiving this message multiple times? Marjorie ---------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [SWITZ] Swiss Cemeteries Date: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:42 AM Spread the news to your clients. I repeat, they are recycled after 50 years if no one pays for the fee for the plot and no one claims responsibility and they cannot find a living relative the bones along with the stones are used for construction on their adobe houses, used for land fill and placed and used to support road bed foundations, including the caskets of what is left of them from rot, most bones are ground up for road support and their adobe houses with the half-timbers. Hope that helps one can think about cremation as it is the same mind set. Heavy stuff, it is done in most European countries where land is valuable. Sorry for the unpleasant news. Life is strange indeed. No respect! Even after death you are still a usable commodity for something. Spread the word to your seekers of common knowledge of how to use everything for a purpose nothing goes to waste reprocessed into usable material for the living and it is just another means of useable material such as cement and there maybe some of your ancestors become part of the concrete used in building roads. In some cases used for animal feed ground up, lot of calcium and other nutrients. This is the truth I do know of that for a fact, it is only realistic to people who need building supplements. Encouraging thought, best to have ancestor remains shipped to the US where land is not a factor yet!...

Well, as long as we are talking about this subject, I will give you my experience. My mother and I were in Switzerland on vacation visiting relative and she had the misfortune of dying there. First of all, they consider her age of 76 being old. Wow!!!!!!!! Their embalming consists of something they call a spritz. By the time the body gets in the hands of a mortician it is too late to embalm. Because we are from the US the body is put in a steel vault and shipped to our country. Hand welded I might add. It is expensive for the family. Looking back I would have had her cremated. Embalming is only done at the medical school on Bern so transportion is a problem. In the town where my family lives the length of time in a cemetery is 40 years. It is a real problem for genealogists. No walks through the cemetery for the stones of family members. Hope this did not gross out anyone. If it did I apologize. Thank for listening Barilynn

Hi Barilynn, Your experience must have been traumatic, to say the least. Thanks for telling about it. I hadn't ever really thought about practices outside of the US, so I find this discussion quite interesting and informative. By doing our family genealogy, I've now found that one deceased member was transported from the west coast to the east coast of the US hidden in a boxcar of grain on a train. ick! And my own grandfather was transported from one state to another with the cooperation of a private pilot. My uncle was obliged to hold his dead father in his lap in a two-seater....flying over the Rocky Mountains. Of course, this wasn't really "legal" so all was done under the cover of night. What a trip that had to be! But, my grandfather was buried in our local cemetery 40 years ago and there is no doubt he'll be there in another 40 years, if the world is still in one piece. Marjorie ---------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: [SWITZ] Re: SWITZERLAND-D Digest V02 #219 Date: Thursday, September 19, 2002 9:10 AM Well, as long as we are talking about this subject, I will give you my experience. My mother and I were in Switzerland on vacation visiting relative and she had the misfortune of dying there. First of all, they consider her age of 76 being old. Wow!!!!!!!! Their embalming consists of something they call a spritz. By the time the body gets in the hands of a mortician it is too late to embalm. Because we are from the US the body is put in a steel vault and shipped to our country. Hand welded I might add. It is expensive for the family. Looking back I would have had her cremated. Embalming is only done at the medical school on Bern so transportion is a problem. In the town where my family lives the length of time in a cemetery is 40 years. It is a real problem for genealogists. No walks through the cemetery for the stones of family members. Hope this did not gross out anyone. If it did I apologize. Thank for listening Barilynn ==== SWITZERLAND Mailing List ==== Going on vacation? Gone longer than 4 days? Go to http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/CHE/SWITZERLAND.html to unsubscribe nothing in message

In the case of the g-g grandfather I am researching, the Berne archives listed both his birthdate and christening date, and they were about a month apart. I wonder if this could account for the differences. Just a thought. Jeanine

The current "line" brings to mind a story my grandmother used to tell. She was born and raised in Quincy, Illinois. When her grandparents died, her father had a simple headstone erected. Some years later when he became more prosperous, he replaced it with substantial monument. The old stone was set aside. Her mother, thrifty German that she was, couldn't see that "nice piece of marble going to waste," so she had it carted home, turned inscription side down, and placed it outside the kitchen door as a "stoop." Years later, after the property had passed into other hands, the occupant reported to the local paper that he had a recurring dream that every time he passed over the step, he had felt that he was stepping on a tombstone. One day he turned the stone over and found the truth! I still have the clipping. Gene Huber