Good morning to those pursuing this thread. It is interesting to see the opinions about pre 1700 wills being expressed, thank you I am learning. I think it would be a very specialised art as Wills did change back and forth in Latin and English for a little while during the reigns of the Tudors. Then you have the trouble of reading the Latin writing some of them being in ancient Latin. There are good Latin dictionaries on the web. I did do 3 years of Latin in High school but we did not cover writing styles which even if you know Latin are very hard to decipher I do have a talk I gave here in Australia called ''Deadly Serious but sometimes Hilarious'' about Wills. Noticed with some I had over the 16th century that even when the Will itself was in English the Probate was in Latin. This does not solve the query but thought it might be interesting. Lefayre Palmer -----Original Message----- From: sussex-plus-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sussex-plus-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Anne Capewell Sent: Saturday, 28 September 2013 2:12 AM To: PMR; sussex-plus@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [SXP] Witnessing a Will - 16th century Hi Pam, You probably have this info already but I was interested to see that there were 3 Standbynorth burials within a couple of weeks of each other: John senior 12/01/1579 Joan 20/01/1579 maid daughter of John Johan 26/01/1579 widow of John senior I'm not an expert on wills either but could the other witness have been his wife? I don't know if women were allowed or expected to witness such documents - was she named in the will? all the best, Anne > Greetings Listers > > I'm at present writing up a short story about my 11 x ggf, John > STANDBYNORTH - or STANBINORTH and other variants - who made his Will on 6th > January 1578 (either 78/79 or 79/80 - year not certain yet) - I have a > transcribed extract. > > Among the Legatees are three called John STANDBYNORTH - > 1. His son John > 2. His son John's son John - a child of 3 or 4 (baptised 1575) > 3. His son Harry's son John - a child of 9 or 10 (baptised 1568) > > In addition, one of the Witnesses is John STANDBYNORTH. I'm > discounting the two children, but am left with this question: was it > possible back then for a Legatee to witness a Will? Or have I found yet > another adult resident of Hastings called John STANDBYNORTH? > > Any help on this matter or anything to do with STANDBYNORTHs > would be gratefully received. > > Many thanks > > Pam > Beaudesert, Queensland, Australia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SUSSEX-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Pam, You probably have this info already but I was interested to see that there were 3 Standbynorth burials within a couple of weeks of each other: John senior 12/01/1579 Joan 20/01/1579 maid daughter of John Johan 26/01/1579 widow of John senior I'm not an expert on wills either but could the other witness have been his wife? I don't know if women were allowed or expected to witness such documents - was she named in the will? all the best, Anne > Greetings Listers > > I'm at present writing up a short story about my 11 x ggf, John > STANDBYNORTH - or STANBINORTH and other variants - who made his Will on 6th > January 1578 (either 78/79 or 79/80 - year not certain yet) - I have a > transcribed extract. > > Among the Legatees are three called John STANDBYNORTH - > 1. His son John > 2. His son John's son John - a child of 3 or 4 (baptised 1575) > 3. His son Harry's son John - a child of 9 or 10 (baptised 1568) > > In addition, one of the Witnesses is John STANDBYNORTH. I'm > discounting the two children, but am left with this question: was it > possible back then for a Legatee to witness a Will? Or have I found yet > another adult resident of Hastings called John STANDBYNORTH? > > Any help on this matter or anything to do with STANDBYNORTHs > would be gratefully received. > > Many thanks > > Pam > Beaudesert, Queensland, Australia

Greetings Listers I'm at present writing up a short story about my 11 x ggf, John STANDBYNORTH - or STANBINORTH and other variants - who made his Will on 6th January 1578 (either 78/79 or 79/80 - year not certain yet) - I have a transcribed extract. Among the Legatees are three called John STANDBYNORTH - 1. His son John 2. His son John's son John - a child of 3 or 4 (baptised 1575) 3. His son Harry's son John - a child of 9 or 10 (baptised 1568) In addition, one of the Witnesses is John STANDBYNORTH. I'm discounting the two children, but am left with this question: was it possible back then for a Legatee to witness a Will? Or have I found yet another adult resident of Hastings called John STANDBYNORTH? Any help on this matter or anything to do with STANDBYNORTHs would be gratefully received. Many thanks Pam Beaudesert, Queensland, Australia

Yes Ros, but Pam was talking in terms of 1578 well prior to 1837 :-). Frances On 27/09/2013 07:06, Ros Dunning wrote: > The Wills Act 1837 provided that if a beneficiary (or their spouse) > witnessed a will the will remained valid but the gift was invalidated (this > remains the case). Whether there was any earlier legislation to this effect > I don't know - there may not have been > > It is always possible that your witness was a nephew or cousin of the > testator > > Ros > > -----Original Message----- > From: sussex-plus-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:sussex-plus-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of PMR > Sent: 27 September 2013 02:17 > To: SFHG Mailing List > Cc: SSX-PLUS - Mailing List > Subject: [SXP] Witnessing a Will - 16th century > > Greetings Listers > > I'm at present writing up a short story about my 11 x ggf, John > STANDBYNORTH - or STANBINORTH and other variants - who made his Will on 6th > January 1578 (either 78/79 or 79/80 - year not certain yet) - I have a > transcribed extract. > > Among the Legatees are three called John STANDBYNORTH - > 1. His son John > 2. His son John's son John - a child of 3 or 4 (baptised 1575) > 3. His son Harry's son John - a child of 9 or 10 (baptised 1568) > > In addition, one of the Witnesses is John STANDBYNORTH. I'm > discounting the two children, but am left with this question: was it > possible back then for a Legatee to witness a Will? Or have I found yet > another adult resident of Hastings called John STANDBYNORTH? > > Any help on this matter or anything to do with STANDBYNORTHs > would be gratefully received. > > Many thanks > > Pam > Beaudesert, Queensland, Australia

A reminder that the 'Big' Open Day will take place at the West Sussex Record Office tomorrow, Saturday 28 Sep, from 10am to 4pm. Admission is free. For further information, please visit http://www.westsussex.gov.uk/leisure/record_office_and_archives/outreach_ser vices/events.aspx#open . The SFHG Events Team will be there with our databases and look-up service. So, if you have some free time tomorrow, why not come along? Best wishes, Marion Woolgar Bognor Regis, West Sussex

The Wills Act 1837 provided that if a beneficiary (or their spouse) witnessed a will the will remained valid but the gift was invalidated (this remains the case). Whether there was any earlier legislation to this effect I don't know - there may not have been It is always possible that your witness was a nephew or cousin of the testator Ros -----Original Message----- From: sussex-plus-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:sussex-plus-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of PMR Sent: 27 September 2013 02:17 To: SFHG Mailing List Cc: SSX-PLUS - Mailing List Subject: [SXP] Witnessing a Will - 16th century Greetings Listers I'm at present writing up a short story about my 11 x ggf, John STANDBYNORTH - or STANBINORTH and other variants - who made his Will on 6th January 1578 (either 78/79 or 79/80 - year not certain yet) - I have a transcribed extract. Among the Legatees are three called John STANDBYNORTH - 1. His son John 2. His son John's son John - a child of 3 or 4 (baptised 1575) 3. His son Harry's son John - a child of 9 or 10 (baptised 1568) In addition, one of the Witnesses is John STANDBYNORTH. I'm discounting the two children, but am left with this question: was it possible back then for a Legatee to witness a Will? Or have I found yet another adult resident of Hastings called John STANDBYNORTH? Any help on this matter or anything to do with STANDBYNORTHs would be gratefully received. Many thanks Pam Beaudesert, Queensland, Australia ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to SUSSEX-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Marion, you are a gem, thank you so much, although I knew some of the information, what you have sent is adding a great deal more. Funnily enough the ancestors we have traced also have triplets although this time girls born in 1607. It seems strange that there has not been found a Palmer connection to this well documented family when there is a Southcote connection. The Palmers and Southcotes seem to have been close as they went to Europe together during the religious upheavals of the time. The family of James Palmer, brother of the Earl of Castlemaine and our Palmers, share a common Southcote ancestor but by different wives. Our branch inherited Blyborough from the family into which James married when there line died out. Strangely our line descends from a daughter who married a brother of Lord Boringdon which line later became the Earls of Morley. The last attachment sent was particularly interesting as it contained a new explanation, to me, of the inclusion of the greyhound, I had always though it to have been because the family went to the Crusades. I notice that there is a place called Compton in Sussex and some writings given me by a relative from America indicate our Palmer were Comptons before the Crusades. Dear Tim, thank you also for your continued interest and advice. Although one would hope otherwise I feel that the Visitation records are no more to be trusted than that of Debrett's or Burke's or even the Census. As all are submissions by interested parties. I have people say they will only give what they want on the census. When those people were interviewed for the Visitations it was a precarious time and no doubt people would be suspicious of giving out too much information. Because someone does not appear in these documents does not mean they didn't exist. In fact I have given a talk to the local Family History Society on ''Are official documents always correct, sometimes the family does know better'' which I have proved on numerous occasions. Happy hunting listers. Lefayre Palmer.

I have sent 'Lefayre' some extra extracts from various publications. Whilst hunting for them, I came across a most extraordinary story concerning triplets born into the PALMER family of Parham that she is trying to connect her ancestors to and I thought that it might be of more general interest to other list members. The following extract is taken from "The Arms of Sussex Families" by J. E. Huxford, published by Phillimore in 1982, ISBN 085033392X: "Ecclesden in Angmering was granted at the dissolution of the monasteries to Sir Edward Palmer. An ancestor of this family had held lands in Sussex in the reign of King Henry Ill. His descendants settled at Steyning, Parham and Angmering. Sir Edward had three sons, who were said to have been born on three successive Sundays, the first on Whit Sunday, the second on the following Sunday, Trinity Sunday, and the third on the Sunday after. The case is apparently known in medical circles and is possibly unique. All three were knighted in after years for their valour by King Henry VIII. Sir John, the eldest, had the paternal estate at Angmering and was twice Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex. Sir Thomas, the youngest, made his fortune at Court under King Henry VIII and King Edward VI, but supporting the Duke of Northumberland in his attempt to place the Lady Jane Grey on the throne was afterwards beheaded with the duke on Tower Hill. The second brother, Sir Henry, settled in Kent, and distinguished himself as a soldier at the sieges of Guisnes and Boulogne, and, when over 70 years of age, died in the defence of the former town." That poor wife must have been in and out of labour for at least 14 days and probably more. Surely this has to be a record! Best wishes, Marion Woolgar Bognor Regis, West Sussex

Hi Folks, I'd love to hear from anyone who has connections to the above people. They married at Banstead, Surrey on the 8 July 1763 according to the IGI. Their son Robert was baptised at Banstead on the 25 Dec 1768. Information obtained from the Parish Records which are accessible via Ancestry. Robert and Mary are my 4 times great grandparents. Their son Robert married Anne Coomber/Comber 23 Aug 1789 at Banstead. This couples daughter Sarah is my ancestor. Cheers, Rosemary M Chalmers Darwin NT Australia

On 23 Sep at 4:52, "Rosemary Chalmers" <rosechal@iinet.net.au> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > > > I'd love to hear from anyone who has connections to the above people. > > > > They married at Banstead, Surrey on the 8 July 1763 according to the > IGI. Their son Robert was baptised at Banstead on the 25 Dec 1768. > Information obtained from the Parish Records which are accessible via > Ancestry. Robert and Mary are my 4 times great grandparents. > > > > Their son Robert married Anne Coomber/Comber 23 Aug 1789 at Banstead. > This couples daughter Sarah is my ancestor. I don't know if this is relevant but a John Comber wrote an article "The Combers" which was published in the Sussex Archaeological Collections of the Sussex Archaeological Society volume XLIX, p. 143. I found it in the Lewes premises of the Society. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

On 21 Sep at 4:51, "Lefayre" <lefayrep@optusnet.com.au> wrote: <snip for brevity> > I realise that Arms should only be used by the eldest son, etc, and > cadet branches should have a difference. This is not necessary in England and Wales. Scottish rules are a little more strict and do include this. English heraldry rules are never published and can only be deduced faintly from practices by the College, which practices may change over time. Up to perhaps the middle of the last century they were quite happy with all male descendants of an armiger using the same arms. These days they include in modern grants a phrase that marks of distinction are needed by cadet males, but that was seldom in the words of earlier grants and I even have hold of a grant that explictly gives the arms of some remote cousin to a chap who was of the original family but not a descendant of the first armiger. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/

Dear friends, I am a lady in Australia, the Palmers are my husband's line. I have read through the information sent and have much work to do. I have to apologise to the Heralds I didn't realise our research was their only source of income. The list of Wills is interesting as Petworth, Westbourne, Angmering, Parham, Singleton, Boxgrave, and Harting have all come up as possible connections in the family history. I have quickly tried the National Archives, as I thought that would be quicker and cheaper, for the Will Nicholas Palmer of Singleton 1557 as the College of Arms had suggested that as a possible source to a Thomas Palmer there, as a Thomas Palmer is given as an eldest son in one of the lines from Stoughton. I have also looked at maps of the area and find all the places mentioned are in close proximity and seem to suggest a pattern of migration of the families. As to the coat of arms used by our John Palmer, is identical to the one on the pedigree of Ralph Palmer, it has been used on his gravestone and on various church memorials here in Australia and John's son George also has it on his gravestone at Londsdowne, Bath, Somerset. I hope they have not used it in these circumstances if not of the family. I realise that Arms should only be used by the eldest son, etc, and cadet branches should have a difference. The Palmers of Dorney Court have it now. This is the family to which Roger Palmer Earl of Castlemaine who married Barbara Villiers the mistress of Charles II belongs. The family here had the story they were of that family but the only connection so far found is in that James Palmer the Earls brother married a Catherine Southcote of Blyborough and John Palmer's son George'Thomas Palmer married Catherine Pemberton daughter of a Catherine Palmer of Blyborough. Thus the story was a little twisted. Kind thoughts, Lefayre. In case it might be of help to someone, families intermarried are Skynner, Auler, Gayger, Lodger, Godfrey, Helier, Slaughter, Breed, Renat.

Hi Jenny My TURNERs are from Suffolk/Cambridge, so no connection to SSX, I'm afraid. John > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 20:06:25 +1000 > From: "Jenny Myers" <jenm@exemail.com.au> > Subject: Re: [SXP] SUSSEX-PLUS Digest,TURNER > To: <sussex-plus@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <087901ceb5e9$14eb1080$6501a8c0@Jen> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hello John, > > In your family list, would you have a Phoebe TURNER b 1890 Reg. Uckfield d > 1946 reg. Cuckfield, mar 1920 Croydon SRY, to Charles S ROWLAND b 1896 > Haywards Heath d 1960 Lindfield ?? > > Regards, > Jenny

Hi Rosemary, I think that this may answer your query http://www.hurstpierpointholytrinity.org.uk/history. Holy Trinity was only built in 1845 (a new church!) and the previous church was St Lawrence. hth, Anne > > Subject: [SXP] Hurstpierpoint - St Lawrence > > > > Hi Folks, > > Linda Price very nicely sent me some info from the National Burial Index > > regarding my previous query on the MILES family. > > The burials are listed at Hurstpierpoint St Lawrence. Now I understand that > > the parish church is Hoy Trinity and other than the school (St Lawrence C of > > E) I can find no mention of St Lawrence in relation to the parish. > > Can anyone possibly explain the burial entry in the index as to where or > > what was St Lawrence? In my case it relates to entries dated in 1824, 1825 > > & 1836. > > Bye, > > Rosemary M Chalmers > > > > Darwin NT Australia > >

Thank you so much Connie, Marion, Tim and Heather for your replies received this morning. I shall print them all off and digest at morning tea time then be back to you. So glad I joined this list to meet up with you all. Lefayre.

Hello John, In your family list, would you have a Phoebe TURNER b 1890 Reg. Uckfield d 1946 reg. Cuckfield, mar 1920 Croydon SRY, to Charles S ROWLAND b 1896 Haywards Heath d 1960 Lindfield ?? Regards, Jenny

Thank you Marion for your advice. We do have the Will for William Palmer who married Thomasin who died in 1601 at Stoughton. The hope is to get back prior to that date. Many years ago Debrett's and the College of Arms did some work for us. A number of family members put into the kitty for this it is far too expensive for a singular person. The College did suggest looking at manorial rolls but the cost was prohibitive is there any other way I can access them? I have recently discovered that a Peregrine Palmer of Fairfield in Somerset held land at Stoughton and Upper Marden. This man came from both the Palmers of Angmering and of Parham. As these families use the same coat of arms that our John Palmer used we naturally wonder if there is a connection. We have not ascertained through the College John's right to do so as for our initial payment was used investigating what we already knew and then the same large amount requested to continue it was beyond our means. Thank you again. Lefayre.

Hi Folks, Linda Price very nicely sent me some info from the National Burial Index regarding my previous query on the MILES family. The burials are listed at Hurstpierpoint St Lawrence. Now I understand that the parish church is Hoy Trinity and other than the school (St Lawrence C of E) I can find no mention of St Lawrence in relation to the parish. Can anyone possibly explain the burial entry in the index as to where or what was St Lawrence? In my case it relates to entries dated in 1824, 1825 & 1836. Bye, Rosemary M Chalmers Darwin NT Australia

Reading this from John reminded me that I have my mother's autograph book which is full of names and wonderful drawings done by the girls and Nuns from the ANNENCY Convent, Seaford and friends from Clarkes College in Brighton. Mum, Gladys NEWMAN was born 1910 in Brighton so these date from around 1923 onwards. Mum was not Catholic but her best friend attended the Convent School so Mum was allowed to attend as well. There is a page of some 50 signitures. Some of the wonderful sketches and paintings and entries only have a first name unfortunately, but some have full names.F.D. DEELEY is one , Peggy Deeley. Richard Deeley, J CLEARY, E COLLINS, Stella SMITH, D HUNTER, Marjorie ROBINSON, plus the 50 others on one page. If you recognise any name and think you might have a connection to either place I will be happy to scan and send anything. Some are French as the Nuns were mostly French. I will scan and post the page if that is allowed. sincerely Eileen (nee NORTHEAST) (b.Brighton 29.08.32) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Love" <john@parkhousemews.co.uk> To: <sussex-plus@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [SXP] SUSSEX-PLUS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 90 > My now deceased Mother (Janet Alice TURNER, b. 1913, from Willesden) > attended this college 1931-33; I still have all her certificates, so thank > you for the posting. As she was significantly later, I do not need any > photographs but it is interesting. He maternal family was from Brighton, > through Louise FUNNELL, b. 6 June 1883, 4 St. Peter's Street, d.o. Jesse & > Mary Jane (VINALL). > > John Love > > >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 11:07:48 +0100 >> From: "Shirley Bond" <sj.bond@onyxnet.co.uk> >> Subject: [SXP] Diocesan Teachers Training College Brighton >> To: <SUSSEX-PLUS@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <007601ceb456$ed7fdcd0$c87f9670$@onyxnet.co.uk> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Around the years 1925 - 1926 my mother Edith Quinn studied to be a >> teacher >> at The Diocesan Training College, Ditchling Road, Brighton. >> >> >> >> All the students lived at a building called The Rookery Hostel in >> Ditchling >> Road. I have a book of Souvenir Postcards taken and stuck in the book by >> Avery's of Brighton along with a photo of the College and two of the >> groups >> of students who were there in 1925 and 1926. I am happy to scan in and >> send >> any pictures to anyone who may have had a relative there at that time. >> There are 16 photographs of the building and three of the students. >> >> >> >> Shirley Bond > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > SUSSEX-PLUS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My now deceased Mother (Janet Alice TURNER, b. 1913, from Willesden) attended this college 1931-33; I still have all her certificates, so thank you for the posting. As she was significantly later, I do not need any photographs but it is interesting. He maternal family was from Brighton, through Louise FUNNELL, b. 6 June 1883, 4 St. Peter's Street, d.o. Jesse & Mary Jane (VINALL). John Love > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 11:07:48 +0100 > From: "Shirley Bond" <sj.bond@onyxnet.co.uk> > Subject: [SXP] Diocesan Teachers Training College Brighton > To: <SUSSEX-PLUS@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <007601ceb456$ed7fdcd0$c87f9670$@onyxnet.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Around the years 1925 - 1926 my mother Edith Quinn studied to be a teacher > at The Diocesan Training College, Ditchling Road, Brighton. > > > > All the students lived at a building called The Rookery Hostel in Ditchling > Road. I have a book of Souvenir Postcards taken and stuck in the book by > Avery's of Brighton along with a photo of the College and two of the groups > of students who were there in 1925 and 1926. I am happy to scan in and send > any pictures to anyone who may have had a relative there at that time. > There are 16 photographs of the building and three of the students. > > > > Shirley Bond