Randi is the most respectable man of magic I have ever heard or seen. Also the most intelligent when it comes to exposing frauds. As for Sophia LOREN, Americans have a way of accenting the last syllable of foreign names. This happened in her case. When she took her screen name she chose Loren because at the time there were two really big names in film in Europe, Marta TOREN and Mamie Van DOREN. But now she is known as Lor-EN. At one time in China, all surnames had to come from a long poem written by a Chinese man. It was an imperial decree. My name was not in existence until a few generations after the Conquest. Nicholas de Taillebois did not want to be known as a Norman descendant so he changed his name to the town of Radcliffe meaning "red cliff." According to the museum and libraries in the area, this was a first. A cliff can mean a riverbank as well as a steep decline. That section of the Irwell River had red banks. But Domesday spelled it Radeclive. Paying little attention during history class, I can't answer Gordon's questions re the Welsh and surrounding areas. But governments have had influence on surnames. I always thought that the freed slaves in America chose their new surnames and some did. Others had their names chosen for them by local authorities and the military. Looking forward to learned responses to Gordon's requests, Gary Radcliffe ----- Original Message ----- From: Pardeejim@aol.com Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:49 PM To: SURNAME-ORIGINS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [SURNAME-ORIGINS] Gordon and Barbara's thread I have been following this with intense interest. I too have over forty years in the accounting profession and I sympathize with Gordon's desire for proof. I would submit to him the definitions of "probable" and "possible" as given to me by James, "The Amazing," RANDI some years ago. He pointed out that he lives fourteen miles from Sophia LOREN. He postulates that some night she will enter his bed chambers. "Possible, yes. Probable, no." This is somewhat the position in which we find surname research. We MUST settle for probable and possible because there is no way we can make scientific tests to determine facts. There are some challenging ideas exchanged on this list. it is one of my favorites. Thanks for the good work to all of you. Jim PARDEE 8261 N W 24 Court Pembroke Pines, FL 33024-3507 954-432-6237 ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237