Somewhere, sometime, I came across the information that in 1465 King Edward of England & colonies decreed that native-Irish residents within the Pale of Dublin must abandon their clan-surnames and choose surnames from a list of towns, colours, arts, trades and offices. The King of the newly united Germany in the late 19th Century decreed that the Jews must abandon their patronymics-system and choose permanent surnames from a range of colours, flowers and other specified items. Does any Lister know any details of similar decrees, in Britain or its neighbours? Absent formal decrees from above, would communities have agreed by some sort of consensus, to adopt general permanent-surnaming systems? I have read of rules - sometimes laws - that forbade English serfs and villeins from copying their betters' dress. Was this so, and (if so) when did it stop? I wonder if the ruling classes in England and Wales followed that pattern and decreed permanent surnames. Surely they must have done, occasionally. The Welsh happily kept their patronymic system going for centuries under English rule. What stopped them, in the end: a decree from London? The K-Celts of Scotland and Ireland seem to have always had a clan-surname system, more or less permanent. Did the P-Celts ever have the same, in England, France or Germany, before switching to the patronymics-system? If they didn't, can anybody say why not, and where and when the change came? Thanks for all thoughts and comments. Gordon Barlow