I specialise in Cornish surnames, I have a fair working kowledge of the Cornish language & have noticed some books on the subject are prone to many errors, whilst some are on the mark most of the time. However it should be pointed out that it is not an exact science. Jim > GB:>> Do the compilers of surname-dictionaries offer any proof that an > ignorant old auditor can take to the bank? I have to assume they do, and I > would like to know what it is. It was unexplained anomalies that allowed > Enron to make such a mess!

> > There are some anomalies here that I for one would appreciate advice and > > comment on. Do the compilers of surname-dictionaries offer any proof that > > an ignorant old auditor can take to the bank? I have to assume they do, and > > I would like to know what it is. Old auditors do not like anomalies. > > While focusing primarily on Hispanic surnames, [this] website has a > lot to offer in the way of answers. > http://home.att.net/~Alsosa/surnames.htm > Elaine Thanks, Elaine. It seems to be an interesting site. However, it leaves my specific question unanswered, and uses simplistic get-outs such as, "It was logical to associate an individual with his occupation and this became a source of many Hispanic surnames." No proof of any sort is given to support the conclusion "...and this became...". "Any physical characteristic could become associated with an individual" - which is what a post-Enron auditor would call an unsubstantiated assumption. "In order to reduce the confusion, individuals with the same name were differentiated from one another by various characteristics." So how come we have so many Juan Garcias and Bill Smiths? I live on an island which until recently had 15,000 people with only a few surnames. What happened was that the islanders differentiated by means of (sometimes weird) FIRST names, not surnames. At the date when surnames were reckoned to have been adopted - whenever that was, in the various parts of the British Isles - 15,000 was a pretty big town. Smaller villages would not have had a problem with differentiation. Look at China with its hundred million Wongs and Lees! Here below is an extract from the Hispanic-surnames website that pretty much sums up my problem. I would guess similar examples could be found in British surname-origins books. "This did not prevent individuals from arbitrarily changing their surnames, however. This is something that happened often as the story of Don Bernardo Alvarez, a soldier in the 1200's, shows us. After getting drunk in a village Inn, Don Bernardo had trouble finding camp and fell asleep near a bed of Roses. The experience of waking up to the smell of roses (especially with a hangover) promptly led him to change his surname to "de las Rosas". Spanish history is replete with these instances which can make it more difficult to trace one's ancestry to the more distant past." Now, that may well have happened, and it's a fun story. But is it anything more than a fun story? Gordon Barlow

Your question is much too vast, and to give you a reasonably complete answer would take rather a long time! In modern English we are lucky enough to have very few conjugations and declensions (words that change spelling/suffix according to what they are doing in the sentence - subject, object etc..). We have retained this notion mostly with pronouns - he, him, his/who, whom, whose. However, old english was an extremely complex language, with grammar at least as complicated as latin!! This partly explains why suffixes/word endings can change from one name to another, although the origin is the same. The why's and wherefore's of retaining such and such a form of the word rather than another is unclear. There is also the fact that no-one ever acually wrote the vast majority of surnames. Only the rich needed to write things down, property deeds, wills and the like, and even then the spelling could vary from one document to another. The ag-lab had other problems....So we had to wait until the 18th century before any effort was made to standardise spelling - and even then surnames were not a priority! If you have done any family research you know that the spelling of a surname could depend on how good the curate's hearing was, and how good he was at decyphering the local accent! As for which parts of the country gave birth to which forms is an impossible question. There were 4 main old english dialects, Northumbrian, Mercian, West Saxon and Kentish. The West Saxon dialect is generally considered to be the "real" language, but that I think is mainly because it is the dialect used in the great majority of surviving texts. I stand to be corrected, but I do not think these differences made any important changes in names. Also remember that it was forbidden to write old english from the 1066 invasion up to about the second half of the 14th century, french was used in the king's Court and latin for church and administrative documents. Old english as such is left to itself and only used by the lowest of the lower classes. During this period all the complicated word-endings and grammar disappear because the aglabs don't know how to use them. Suddenly Chaucer starts publishing in that peculiar mixture of germanic and latin that make up the language we speak today. Finally there is absolutely no scientific proof of any of the surnames/place-names etc that appear in these dictionaries. They are compiled by very learnèd scholars, and give good justified explanations of what could perhaps be the origin, but it is impossible to go back in any real detail. Very clever authors satisfying a demand and making themselves an honest dollar. Why not? Sorry to leave you in doubt, but we can't rewrite 2000yrs of history! I've been a bit long-winded on this one so I'll be off for a pint now! Geoff

GB:>> Do the compilers of surname-dictionaries offer any proof that an ignorant old auditor can take to the bank? I have to assume they do, and I would like to know what it is. It was unexplained anomalies that allowed Enron to make such a mess! > > > ... taking the books at face value, though I have often wondered where the authors got their > information. There are quite a few pages of introduction in most of my source books and now that you have piqued my curiosity I will try to wade through a few of them and get back to you. > Barbara > That's a very generous offer, Barbara, and I am rather embarrassed to have asked the awkward question. From what you say, though, am I to understand that it is not a commonly asked question? That would surprise me - but then the Enron auditors surprised me! Can any other academic on the List help us? I believe this is a most crucial area of enquiry. Gordon Barlow

Never saw the name before, but clearly of latin origin. You can choose between:- domi livori = from the pale house(s) = domi (house(s) lovor (pale, livid) or domi Livii = the house(s) of the Livius family. Geoff

While focusing primarily on Hispanic surnames, the website has a lot to offer in the way of answers. http://home.att.net/~Alsosa/surnames.htm Elaine (who is researching Slepicka / Slepica / Chicken BECAUSE Slepicka loosely translates from the Czech to "little hen" and half my family *went* for it in the US, though I never saw one member of my family ever involved in raising chickens <grin> and as a child often wished I had a different surname) Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it. --Henry David Thoreau Hello Gordon On Saturday, May 17, 2003, you wrote >>>What is it about a final 's' in a British surname that indicates a > Germanic origin? >> I don't know much about words of Germanic origin, but I do know that the >> final -s- also often indicates "descendant or son of..." in Welsh and >> other languages (i.e., Jones - "John's son"). In this case (MULLINS), >> in "A Dictionary of Surnames" by Patrick Hanks and Flavia Hodges, is >> listed as definitely English and is one of several variations of the >> name MULLEN, meaning someone who lived by a mill, or an occupational >> name for a miller, originating from the Anglo-Norman French word >> "mo(u)lin, mulin" (mill). >> Barbara > Thanks, Barbara. May I ask the same sort of question as I asked about > location-names? Exactly what dialectal influence was it, and where in the > British Isles (or the earlier Germanic world, I guess), that caused people > to call themselves (or be called by their neighbours) by the possessive? I > mean, somebody who lived near the shallow part of a river was called > SHIELDS, according to a dictionary quoted earlier. Presumable that was in a > different part of the country/culture from the part that gave Will's family > the name Wills. So which parts of the country/culture are we talking about? > If Mullins was originally Mullin's, and the name was given to a miller by > occupation, how do we KNOW the first Mullin was a miller? Or are we just > presuming because of the name? > Another question is this. -n was a common plural-form in the Olden Tymes. > So was the first Mullin a family of Mullins? Or is the -n not a plural at > all or an adjectival suffix, which in other circumstances might have caused > the name to be written Mull-ine or Mull-an? As I ask this, I realise the > question looks frivolous; but it really isn't, because it goes to the root > of the matter. We presume a miller was called MILLER, because a miller is > someone who mills for a living, and vice versa. But why would his family > not be called MILLEREN or MILLERS? > There is some anomalies here that I for one would appreciate advice and > comment on. Do the compilers of surname-dictionaries offer any proof that > an ignorant old auditor can take to the bank? I have to assume they do, and > I would like to know what it is. Old auditors do not like anomalies. It > was unexplained anomalies that allowed Enron to make such a mess! > Thank you for any help. > Gordon Barlow

While focusing primarily on Hispanic surnames, the website has a lot to offer in the way of answers. http://home.att.net/~Alsosa/surnames.htm Elaine (who is researching Slepicka / Slepica / Chicken BECAUSE Slepicka loosely translates from the Czech to "little hen" and half my family *went* for it in the US, though I never saw one member of my family ever involved in raising chickens <grin> and as a child often wished I had a different surname) Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it. --Henry David Thoreau Hello Gordon On Saturday, May 17, 2003, you wrote >>>What is it about a final 's' in a British surname that indicates a > Germanic origin? >> I don't know much about words of Germanic origin, but I do know that the >> final -s- also often indicates "descendant or son of..." in Welsh and >> other languages (i.e., Jones - "John's son"). In this case (MULLINS), >> in "A Dictionary of Surnames" by Patrick Hanks and Flavia Hodges, is >> listed as definitely English and is one of several variations of the >> name MULLEN, meaning someone who lived by a mill, or an occupational >> name for a miller, originating from the Anglo-Norman French word >> "mo(u)lin, mulin" (mill). >> Barbara > Thanks, Barbara. May I ask the same sort of question as I asked about > location-names? Exactly what dialectal influence was it, and where in the > British Isles (or the earlier Germanic world, I guess), that caused people > to call themselves (or be called by their neighbours) by the possessive? I > mean, somebody who lived near the shallow part of a river was called > SHIELDS, according to a dictionary quoted earlier. Presumable that was in a > different part of the country/culture from the part that gave Will's family > the name Wills. So which parts of the country/culture are we talking about? > If Mullins was originally Mullin's, and the name was given to a miller by > occupation, how do we KNOW the first Mullin was a miller? Or are we just > presuming because of the name? > Another question is this. -n was a common plural-form in the Olden Tymes. > So was the first Mullin a family of Mullins? Or is the -n not a plural at > all or an adjectival suffix, which in other circumstances might have caused > the name to be written Mull-ine or Mull-an? As I ask this, I realise the > question looks frivolous; but it really isn't, because it goes to the root > of the matter. We presume a miller was called MILLER, because a miller is > someone who mills for a living, and vice versa. But why would his family > not be called MILLEREN or MILLERS? > There is some anomalies here that I for one would appreciate advice and > comment on. Do the compilers of surname-dictionaries offer any proof that > an ignorant old auditor can take to the bank? I have to assume they do, and > I would like to know what it is. Old auditors do not like anomalies. It > was unexplained anomalies that allowed Enron to make such a mess! > Thank you for any help. > Gordon Barlow

DOM also refers to someone who lived near a cathedral, so you may be right, but don't look at me for more than that! <G> As far as my source books are concerned the name STILL doesn't exist! I suspect we need someone who speaks/reads the language to translate this for us. Barbara GARY RADCLIFFE wrote: >DOM is the name of a priest or monk in France and the -livre element means "free." >FREEMONK? > >Bet Barbara comes up with something. I went to Google, too. Nothing. > >Gary > > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > >

> > >There is some anomalies here that I for one would appreciate advice and >comment on. Do the compilers of surname-dictionaries offer any proof that >an ignorant old auditor can take to the bank? I have to assume they do, and >I would like to know what it is. Old auditors do not like anomalies. It >was unexplained anomalies that allowed Enron to make such a mess! > Well, Gordon, since I didn't write any of the books, your question leaves my head in a spin! You've asked some very pertinent questions. I'm afraid I've been just as guilty as the next in taking the books at face value, though I have often wondered where the authors got their information. There are quite a few pages of introduction in most of my source books and now that you have piqued my curiosity I will try to wade through a few of them and get back to you. Barbara

BRADT - instead of brot (bread) i'd rather prefer braten (roast) - so it might be a name for a cook. i only find the name brade with that explanation. jurgen *********************************************** ----- Original Message ----- From: LaChance <lachance@ccis.com> To: <SURNAME-ORIGINS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [SURNAME-ORIGINS] Some of mine > LEAZONBY ? > > HARNESS, HARNISH (English) One who made armor and harness. > > PATTON, PATTEN, PATTIN (English) > 1. Descendant of little Pat, a pet form of Patrick (noble or patrician). > 2. One who came from Patton (village of Peatti's people; Patta's > homestead), the name of places in Shropshire and Westmorland. > > OOSTERHOUT (Dutch) One who came from Oosterhout (east wood, in Holland. > ---Source: New Dictionary of American Family Names by Elsdon C. Smith. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > BRADT (German) The only reference I could find to the name as spelled > referred me to "BROT". However, the closest I could find to that > spelling was "Brotmann" which means a "baker". All names with the first > element "BROT" had something to do with being a baker, so I am led to > assume that BRADT/BROT is also a "BAKER". > ---Source: German-American Names by George F. Jones. > Barbara > > > roland elliott wrote: > > >Kenne,Kenny,Field,Hornbeck,Leazonby,Harness,Decker,Jans,Westbrook,Westfall, Patton,Oosterhout,Bradt,Thank you/ > >Quidquid latine dictum sit,altum viditur. > > > > > >============================== > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

>>What is it about a final 's' in a British surname that indicates a Germanic origin? > I don't know much about words of Germanic origin, but I do know that the > final -s- also often indicates "descendant or son of..." in Welsh and > other languages (i.e., Jones - "John's son"). In this case (MULLINS), > in "A Dictionary of Surnames" by Patrick Hanks and Flavia Hodges, is > listed as definitely English and is one of several variations of the > name MULLEN, meaning someone who lived by a mill, or an occupational > name for a miller, originating from the Anglo-Norman French word > "mo(u)lin, mulin" (mill). > Barbara Thanks, Barbara. May I ask the same sort of question as I asked about location-names? Exactly what dialectal influence was it, and where in the British Isles (or the earlier Germanic world, I guess), that caused people to call themselves (or be called by their neighbours) by the possessive? I mean, somebody who lived near the shallow part of a river was called SHIELDS, according to a dictionary quoted earlier. Presumable that was in a different part of the country/culture from the part that gave Will's family the name Wills. So which parts of the country/culture are we talking about? If Mullins was originally Mullin's, and the name was given to a miller by occupation, how do we KNOW the first Mullin was a miller? Or are we just presuming because of the name? Another question is this. -n was a common plural-form in the Olden Tymes. So was the first Mullin a family of Mullins? Or is the -n not a plural at all or an adjectival suffix, which in other circumstances might have caused the name to be written Mull-ine or Mull-an? As I ask this, I realise the question looks frivolous; but it really isn't, because it goes to the root of the matter. We presume a miller was called MILLER, because a miller is someone who mills for a living, and vice versa. But why would his family not be called MILLEREN or MILLERS? There is some anomalies here that I for one would appreciate advice and comment on. Do the compilers of surname-dictionaries offer any proof that an ignorant old auditor can take to the bank? I have to assume they do, and I would like to know what it is. Old auditors do not like anomalies. It was unexplained anomalies that allowed Enron to make such a mess! Thank you for any help. Gordon Barlow

I know we are all related- - the degree is unknown. ----- Original Message ----- From: "GARY RADCLIFFE" <glradcliffe@msn.com> To: <SURNAME-ORIGINS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 23:22 Subject: Re: [SURNAME-ORIGINS] Elliott/Varley,Chapman,Stockton,shields,Chernay. > MITCHELL - Scottish form of Michael. > > SHEARDOWN - Here is a case mentioned by Gordon of a name being derived from > an ancient personal name or something more modern. It could be a place where > sheep shearing was done but -down means on a hill and it's doubtful that shearing > was done on a hill so Gordon's theory is much more likely. > > You know Roland, that everywhere your ancestors lived, mine lived also. > From New York to Ohio, WV and finally California. I think they were keeping > their eyes on each other. > > Gary > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: LaChance > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 11:06 PM > To: SURNAME-ORIGINS-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [SURNAME-ORIGINS] Elliott/Varley,Chapman,Stockton,shields,Chernay. > > Will give it a try but it will have to be tomorrow night as its WAY past > my bedtime and my eyeballs are drooping. :-) > Barbara > > roland elliott wrote: > > >Thank you,how about Mitchell,Sheardown,and then a mess of Dutch names? > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "LaChance" <lachance@ccis.com> > >To: <SURNAME-ORIGINS-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 22:26 > >Subject: Re: [SURNAME-ORIGINS] > >Elliott/Varley,Chapman,Stockton,shields,Chernay. > > > > > > > > > >>ELLIOTT > >>1. English: diminutive of ELLIS. > >>2. English & Scot.: from a Middle English given name, " Elyat, Elyt". > >>3. Scot.: Anglicized form of the Gaelic surname "ELLOCH, ELOTH", meaning > >>someone who lived near a dam, mound, or bank. > >> > >>VARLEY ( English) of uncertain origin, probably a habitation name from > >>"Verly" in Aisne, Picardy, so called from the Gallo-Roman personal name > >>"Viriliou" + the local suffix "-acum". The surname is now most common > >>in W. Yorkshire. > >> > >>CHAPMAN (English) a merchant or trader (from an Old English word meaning > >>"barter, bargain, price, property" + "mann" man). > >> > >>STOCKTON (English) someone from any of the places, for example in > >>Cheshire, County Durham, Hertsfordshire, Norfolk, Shropshire, > >>Warwickshire, Wiltshire, Worcestershire, and N. and W. Yorkshire, so > >>called from Old English "stocc" (tree trunk) or "stoc" (dependent > >>settlement) + "tun" (settlement, enclosure). It is not possible to > >>distinguish between the two first elements on the basis of early forms. > >> > >>SHIELDS > >>1. English: an armourer. > >>2. English: someone from places in Northumberland and County Durham (now > >>both in Tyne and Wear) called respectively "N and S Shields", from a > >>Middle English word meaning "shed, hut, shelter". Some examples of the > >>name may be topographic, derived directly from the vocabulary word. > >>3. English: someone who lived near the shallow part of a river. > >>4. Irish: Anglicized form of "O'Siaghail, O'Siadhail" (descendant of > >>"Siadhal"). > >> > >>CHERNAY - couldn't find this one as written. Did find two possibilities: > >>\ CHERNEY, CHARNEY (Czech-Slav.) The dark complected man. > >>\ CHENAY, CHENEY, CHENE (French) someone who lived near a conspicuous > >>oak tree, or in an oak forest. The name may also have sometimes been a > >>nickname for a man with a "heart of oak". > >>---Source: A Dictionary of Surnames by Patrick Hanks and Flavia Hodges. > >>Barbara > >> > >>roland elliott wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>I am interested in in the above ,Thank you. > >>>Quidquid latine dictum sit,altum viditur. > >>> > >>> > >>>============================== > >>>To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > >>> > >>> > >go to: > > > > > >>>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>============================== > >>To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > >> > >> > >go to: > > > > > >>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >============================== > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

> ELLIOTT: Scot.: Anglicized form of the Gaelic, meaning someone who lived near a dam, mound, or bank. > VARLEY ( English) of uncertain origin, probably a habitation name > SHIELDS: English: someone who lived near the shallow part of a river. > \ CHERNEY, CHARNEY (Czech-Slav.) The dark complected man. > \ CHENAY, CHENEY, CHENE (French) someone who lived near a conspicuous > oak tree, or in an oak forest. The name may also have sometimes been a > nickname for a man with a "heart of oak". > ---Source: A Dictionary of Surnames by Patrick Hanks and Flavia Hodges. > Barbara May I ask another ignorant (but fundamental, I guess) question about name-origins? How do we KNOW that someone who lived near the shallow part of a river took that location as his or her permanent surname? And, would such a surname have depended on some kind of village tradition? By that I mean: not everybody all over the British Isles took or was given that name, who lived in such a location. So what cultural reference was it that caused only SOME families to have the name? Each of the names reported above (Elliott, Varley, Shields, Cheney) - and a zillion other locational names - they all sound plausible enough. And I am not for a moment suggesting that the derivation is wrong. But, to repeat, how do we KNOW they are right? I suppose what I am asking is, what proof is there? My next thought-process naturally tells me that actual proof might not exist. However, from all I read there is a CERTAINTY about location-names being the origins of certain surnames. When I confess to the List that I am a former accounts-auditor, it will become clear what kind of person I am - viz, the kind who distinguishes between certainty and less-than-certainty! So if someone will be kind enough to satisfy my curiosity onthis point,I will be very grateful. Gordon Barlow

I am supposedly descended from John and Christina (unknown maiden) Alkire. They seem to have been in Hampshire co, VA and Harrison ( now Lewis) Co, VA/WV You seem not to know how to use the list. A little help perhaps? http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SURNAME-ORIGINS/2003-05/1053195226 Go there and look at it, please. I started with a new inquiry about the surname Alkire. Jurgen and then LaChance both helped me. Then you come in with something which doesn't even have Alkire mentioned in it. Your message/question should have been in line with mine or at least had the name Alkire in it. I hope that will make some sense to you and help you. Mary

Hello, In Germanic names the final -s is short for "son", i.e denoted a patronymical relationship. In North Germanic languages the full word "son" was added to the name (e.g. Persson, Jensen), while in most names in the West Germanic languages (German, Dutch) this "son" got shortend to "s" (e.g. Peters, Hofmans). English has both (e.g. Peterson, Williams). In Dutch the change from -zoon to -sz and -s happen comparatively recently (~ 350-300 years ago). Btw. - it would be interesting to know how patronymical names ended in East Germanic names (namely Gothic). Unfortunately the last of the Goths died in the early 1600s on the Crimean Penninsula, so this may be difficult to establish. Regards, Ingolf Vogel

Hello: I am new to the list and am hoping that someone can help me out with my g-g-g-grandmother's maiden name of DOMILIVER. My ancestor immigrated to Canada from Ireland about 1835 and ended up in Ontario. I have been able to find reference to her name on a marriage index for her son's marriage about 1865. There her name is spelled DOMILIVRE. Not sure which is the correct spelling. All I know is that I have contacted a professor in Ireland (sorry can't remember which university) who is a surname researcher and he had never heard of this name in Ireland. In fact couldn't even pin-point its possible origins. The professor's wife who is also a surname researcher thought it looked Spanish but said that she had never heard of this name from Spain and that is her area of expertise. HELLLLLLP, please! It is driving me crazy that no one in the world has ever heard of the name DOMILIVER/DOMILIVRE. A soundex search brings up some German names, but none that are even remotely close in spelling to this surname. Thank you. Dona Baker Alberta, Canada Also researching: HORNIBROOK (Reported to mean "Stag at Bay" in Old English. Need to verify this. Originates in Devonshire, England) BELESAIGNE (Huguenot name meaning pretty pool - originates from Languedoc region of France)

I really do have some odd ones, and more than 80% are ones I never heard of until I got into doing our families genealogy. :~) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.tribalpages.com/tribes/chappie623 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why are you using my Alkire question for all these other names and whatever? Mary

Beg your Pardon?

DOM is the name of a priest or monk in France and the -livre element means "free." FREEMONK? Bet Barbara comes up with something. I went to Google, too. Nothing. Gary