Welcome Lonnie, So far, the list only numbers 5 as far as I can tell: three working in the US and two working in Ireland. Below is my original post to this list for those who are new. I could see the logical mind at work in your presentation. I, too, would like to know where the name Surginer came from as one idea for Mary's maiden name. Recently I was told that Mary's name was in a history in Bartholomew Co., IN, saying she was the daughter of Elijah Pope (son of Pilgrim, I assume). That cannot be since Elijah was born in 1763 and Mary 1771-74 (by different accounts). Another account was that one of the Coxes referred to Mignon Boaz (one of Elijah Pope's sons-in-law) as a "cousin-in-law." If Mary were a Surginer then Boaz could also be a "cousin-in-law" although by marriage in either event. I have not seen a copy of the history from Bart. Co. and wonder if it is an old one and who submitted it (which can usually be told by who is the central character of the bio) or if it is a newer history in which a descendant provided the submission. Elijah Pope's account book names his children and their birth dates; it does not list a daughter named Mary at all. He does mention the Surginer name three times in the book: Olive Surginer died July 21, 1814 (possibly his daughte Olive since nothing more has been found); he made a payment to John Surginner (no date); and an entry that was written over something faded plus something else crossed out which made this entry difficult to make out: Jacob Surginner sot? of to the March 8, 1779 (makes no sense but just couldn't tell what it was). There was a William, Jacob and Abraham Surgener in Grayson Co., VA, at the same time although William of the Grayson Co. censuses was too young to be the William Surgener in the records with the Popes. Coxes mentioned in Elijah Pope's account book were:Joseph, Samuel, Steven and Soloman if that's any help. ---------- copy ---------- My line begins with: OLIVE SURGENER b. 1742-45 NC m. 26 Jan 1762 Edgecombe Co., NC d. May 1820 Crawford Co., IN PILGRIM POPE b. ca 1740's NC d. May 1790 probably VA (part that became Grayson Co.) ---------- Olive was a daughter of (proved in father's will): ROBERT SURGENER b. m. possibly by 1728 although first mention of Catherine is 1744. d. 1778 Edgecombe Co., NC CATHERINE ?? b. d. aft 1778 Children (order not known): 1. John Surgener m1. Mary POPE; m2. Elizabeth ?? (Rev. War veteran; he went to South Carolina) 2. William Surgener (probably the William who followed sister Olive to Rowan and Ashe Counties, NC, and Grayson Co., VA) 3. Benjamin Surgener 4. Olive Surgener m. Pilgrim Pope 5. Hannah Surgener m. ?? Sykes/Sikes (possibly Sampson Sykes?) 6. Sarah Surgener --------- Robert Surgener was a son of (proved in father's will): JOHN SURGENER/SURGINER/SOJOURNER d. Mar 1728 Isle of Wight Co., VA * This is the black hole. No mention was made of his wife, or her name, in the will which causes the problem - and John Surgener who d.1728 had TWO sons named John. At first it would appear he was the John Surginer who had a marriage contract in 1673 Isle of Wight Co., VA, to marry Alice Harris, widow of Thomas Harris. Perhaps his second marriage and he had a son named John by his first wife. However, Alice already had five children. Since Robert Surgener lived until 1778, I just cannot stretch Alice's birthing years far enough for her to have given birth to Robert and then Robert living until 1778. Either this John married again AFTER Alice OR the 1728 will and the father of Robert is actually John, the SON of John who married Alice West in 1673. There is a John Sojourner/Sojernor with wife Mary in Isle of Wight Co., VA, as early as 1689. Children named in John Surginer's 1728 will: John the elder Robert (executor) John the younger Benjamin Mary Ann ----- Ruby ---------- copy ----------