See: http://home.rmci.net/adamewa/famgroup.htm for a family chart for Stephen and "Elizabeth" Livesay Surgener. Censuses and burials, etc., contributed by a mail list member are on various pages. Go to the main index page at http://home.rmci.net.adamewa/index.htm Ruby ........................ At 10:47 PM 04/06/01 EDT, you wrote: >Hi, >I'm trying to connect my SURGENER ancestors to a family tree. My >great-grandmother was Mariah Surgener, daughter of Stephen Surgener and Mary >Livesay Surgener. I believe she was born in the vicinity of Blackwater, >Virginia in the late 1850's. Do any of these names appear on your family >line. Any help you can give would be appreciated. > >Thanks, >Kathryn Roskow >a Surgener/Testerman/Livesay descendant > > >==== SURGENER Mailing List ==== >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >To unsubscribe, send the message "unsubscribe" without the quotes to: >[email protected] > >============================== >Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 >Source for Family History Online. Go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > > >

Hi, I'm trying to connect my SURGENER ancestors to a family tree. My great-grandmother was Mariah Surgener, daughter of Stephen Surgener and Mary Livesay Surgener. I believe she was born in the vicinity of Blackwater, Virginia in the late 1850's. Do any of these names appear on your family line. Any help you can give would be appreciated. Thanks, Kathryn Roskow a Surgener/Testerman/Livesay descendant

Sorry Listers, last email was supposed to go to Jackson not the list

Hi Jackson, Thanks for the reference, yes it certainly does look like the right one. As far as l know there is a family plot in Kirkinriola Cemetery Rathkenny. To the best of my knowledge Mary is there along with her Father James and others. The information that l have came from newspaper cuttings of the time. Yes James was manager of the Antrim Iron Ore Company for many years and in total worked for the company for 27 years. There was a presentation made to James and Mary Ann in Little Ballymena of mathematical instruments and a silver tea service. The presentation was the first to take place in the North of Ireland for anyone of note. James was a native of Ballymena, leaving whilst still young to work in the coal mines of Scotland. l firmly believe that James Surgeoner was not a Captain, but his son James Alexander Surgeoner was. l have a few newspaper cuttings, so if you want to forward me your snail mail addy, l will photocopy them for you, they are not in very good condition, but readable and whoever cut them out of the paper did not include dates. Can you give me an address for an agency that l can obtain the marriage certificate through, it is very hard getting certs for Ireland here in Australia. l have other bit's and pieces, when l sort them all out l will put it all on PAF, but it is to splintered at the moment. l also have a few photo's l can send. Will wait to hear from you Regards Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jackson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 6:28 PM Subject: RE: [SURGENER-L] SURGEONER Ballymena Antrim > Hi Sue > > Have you ever ordered the marriage record for James to find out who his > father was (and also the father of Mary Anne) > > I live in Co Antrim and order quite often from Dublin, I think I have a > volume and page reference for the marriage of James. > > If you already have a copy could you let me know who the parents were for my > records. > > If you check my web site http://www.vyger.fsnet.co.uk under Surgenor > marriages I believe the one you are looking for is reference number 5383 > which would then match with 1760 once proved. > > I have printed below a summary of what I know of the family from available > records here in Ireland. The other children may have been born in Scotland > of I have not been able to check the records here yet to prove parentage. > > I was informed once that James was buried in Broughshane. I have walked the > three cemeteries there and not found one Surgenor headstone, do you know > where he is buried? > > Let me know if I can help. > > Jackson > > > > > Descendants of Capt? James Surgener - 6 Apr 2001 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --- > > FIRST GENERATION > > 1. Capt? James Surgener was born on May 21, 1852 in Rathkenny, > Broughshane?. He was a Labourer in 1877. He was a Sub Manager of Iron Ore > Mine in 1882. He died on December 19, 1918 in Rathkenny, Broughshane?. > > He was married to Mary Anne Alexander on January 4, 1873 in Broughshane, > Antrim, Ireland. Mary Anne Alexander was born before 1855 in a place > unknown. She died on February 21, 1933 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. She > was buried on February 23, 1933 in Norway Cemetery, Toronto, Canada. Her > obituary read as follows and appeared in the. Capt? James Surgener and Mary > Anne Alexander had the following children: > > 2 i. David Charles Surgeoner was born on May 29, 1877 in Loughcouley?, > Skerry. > 3 ii. John George Surgener was born on August 13, 1882 in Tullymore, > Skerry. > > > Prepared by: > Jackson Eagleson > 4 Berry Crescent > Old Carrick Road > Newtownabbey > [email protected] > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sue Adamson [mailto:[email protected]] > > Sent: 05 April 2001 04:57 > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: [SURGENER-L] SURGEONER Ballymena Antrim > > > > > > Dear Listers, > > > > Would like to re-run my interests...... > > > > James SURGEONER b 21st May 1852 Rathkenny Antrim parents unknown :o( > > married > > Mary Ann ALEXANDER 4th Jan 1873 Broughshane Antrim > > James died 19th Dec 1918 Rathkenny and is buried in Kirkinrola Cem > > Mary Ann died/buried 23rd Feb 1932 Toronto Canada and buried in > > Norway Cem. > > > > Their Children, some born in Ballymena others in Greenock Scotland :- > > Elizabeth Ann 1871 > > James Alexander 1875 > > David Charles 1877 > > Elizabeth Ann 1878 > > Francis Gendall 1880 > > George 1882 > > Mary Ellen 1884 > > Maggie Jane 1886 > > John 1888 > > Robert Pettigrew 1893 > > > > Most of these children ended up in Canada. James Alexander > > settled in Australia and David Charles l believe settled in > > Belfast. Mary Ellen died in Rathkenny. > > > > Regards > > Sue > > > > > > ==== SURGENER Mailing List ==== > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > To unsubscribe, send the message "unsubscribe" without the quotes to: > > [email protected] > > > > ============================== > > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 > > > > > ==== SURGENER Mailing List ==== > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > To unsubscribe, send the message "unsubscribe" without the quotes to: > [email protected] > > ============================== > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp >

Claude How do you know for sure he came from Ireland, i.e what supporting information do you have. Jackson > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 06 April 2001 16:16 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SURGENER-L] SURGEONER Ballymena Antrim > > > I have been reading these messages for the past week or so. > Perhaps it is > time I added some information. The following may be totally > unconnected. At > least I don't know how to connect it. > > My wife's earliest known Surgeoner was a George Surgeoner, born > about 1794 in > Ireland. We have long suspected he came from the Ballymena, > Antrim but have > no proof what so ever. George married Jean Tennock in 1819 in > St. Quivox, > Ayrshire, Scotland. They had 8 children, in the following order: Ann > Campell, Ann, John Tinnock, Janet, Jane, Thomas, James, George. > > Claude Wrathall > > > ==== SURGENER Mailing List ==== > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > To unsubscribe, send the message "unsubscribe" without the quotes to: > [email protected] > > ============================== > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp >

I have been reading these messages for the past week or so. Perhaps it is time I added some information. The following may be totally unconnected. At least I don't know how to connect it. My wife's earliest known Surgeoner was a George Surgeoner, born about 1794 in Ireland. We have long suspected he came from the Ballymena, Antrim but have no proof what so ever. George married Jean Tennock in 1819 in St. Quivox, Ayrshire, Scotland. They had 8 children, in the following order: Ann Campell, Ann, John Tinnock, Janet, Jane, Thomas, James, George. Claude Wrathall

Hi Sue Have you ever ordered the marriage record for James to find out who his father was (and also the father of Mary Anne) I live in Co Antrim and order quite often from Dublin, I think I have a volume and page reference for the marriage of James. If you already have a copy could you let me know who the parents were for my records. If you check my web site http://www.vyger.fsnet.co.uk under Surgenor marriages I believe the one you are looking for is reference number 5383 which would then match with 1760 once proved. I have printed below a summary of what I know of the family from available records here in Ireland. The other children may have been born in Scotland of I have not been able to check the records here yet to prove parentage. I was informed once that James was buried in Broughshane. I have walked the three cemeteries there and not found one Surgenor headstone, do you know where he is buried? Let me know if I can help. Jackson Descendants of Capt? James Surgener - 6 Apr 2001 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- FIRST GENERATION 1. Capt? James Surgener was born on May 21, 1852 in Rathkenny, Broughshane?. He was a Labourer in 1877. He was a Sub Manager of Iron Ore Mine in 1882. He died on December 19, 1918 in Rathkenny, Broughshane?. He was married to Mary Anne Alexander on January 4, 1873 in Broughshane, Antrim, Ireland. Mary Anne Alexander was born before 1855 in a place unknown. She died on February 21, 1933 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. She was buried on February 23, 1933 in Norway Cemetery, Toronto, Canada. Her obituary read as follows and appeared in the. Capt? James Surgener and Mary Anne Alexander had the following children: 2 i. David Charles Surgeoner was born on May 29, 1877 in Loughcouley?, Skerry. 3 ii. John George Surgener was born on August 13, 1882 in Tullymore, Skerry. Prepared by: Jackson Eagleson 4 Berry Crescent Old Carrick Road Newtownabbey [email protected] > -----Original Message----- > From: Sue Adamson [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 05 April 2001 04:57 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [SURGENER-L] SURGEONER Ballymena Antrim > > > Dear Listers, > > Would like to re-run my interests...... > > James SURGEONER b 21st May 1852 Rathkenny Antrim parents unknown :o( > married > Mary Ann ALEXANDER 4th Jan 1873 Broughshane Antrim > James died 19th Dec 1918 Rathkenny and is buried in Kirkinrola Cem > Mary Ann died/buried 23rd Feb 1932 Toronto Canada and buried in > Norway Cem. > > Their Children, some born in Ballymena others in Greenock Scotland :- > Elizabeth Ann 1871 > James Alexander 1875 > David Charles 1877 > Elizabeth Ann 1878 > Francis Gendall 1880 > George 1882 > Mary Ellen 1884 > Maggie Jane 1886 > John 1888 > Robert Pettigrew 1893 > > Most of these children ended up in Canada. James Alexander > settled in Australia and David Charles l believe settled in > Belfast. Mary Ellen died in Rathkenny. > > Regards > Sue > > > ==== SURGENER Mailing List ==== > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > To unsubscribe, send the message "unsubscribe" without the quotes to: > [email protected] > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

That's okay, Sue. I set up the list to reply back to the list and not to the person. This helps to keep the list active when folks start responding. If you wish the letter to be private, remember to change the to field before you hit send. We are not very active right now and we do not have a very large list, so I think this will be okay. I also manage the GenConnect boards and I will set those up to forward copies to this list so that we can watch those posts, too. They are also slow, or non-active. I am hoping that both pick up soon. Tina Hall SURGENER list manager ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sue Adamson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:44 AM Subject: [SURGENER-L] oops l did it again > Sorry Listers, last email was supposed to go to Jackson not the list

Dear Listers, Would like to re-run my interests...... James SURGEONER b 21st May 1852 Rathkenny Antrim parents unknown :o( married Mary Ann ALEXANDER 4th Jan 1873 Broughshane Antrim James died 19th Dec 1918 Rathkenny and is buried in Kirkinrola Cem Mary Ann died/buried 23rd Feb 1932 Toronto Canada and buried in Norway Cem. Their Children, some born in Ballymena others in Greenock Scotland :- Elizabeth Ann 1871 James Alexander 1875 David Charles 1877 Elizabeth Ann 1878 Francis Gendall 1880 George 1882 Mary Ellen 1884 Maggie Jane 1886 John 1888 Robert Pettigrew 1893 Most of these children ended up in Canada. James Alexander settled in Australia and David Charles l believe settled in Belfast. Mary Ellen died in Rathkenny. Regards Sue

I noted your mail of 30/3/01 regarding the Sojourners. I looked in Ayr Scotland for traces of my Surgenors and found the following :- John Richmond married Janet Sojourner in the Parich of Mauchline on 5th August 1791 They were " contracted " 17th July I also found a Jonet Sojourner christened on 10th September 1643 and her Father was Edward. Looking through some old papers I found the following two mails which I receieved in March 1995, a Thomas Surgenor 75353.2361 compuserve. He had in his family William. David. Another was from Ken Surgenor with wife Angela 76232.3371 and came from Mobile Alabama. His family so he was yold came from Kyles Ford and before that Virginia In Richmond area. He was told his name had French connection. Just sending these bits as you never know they may ring a bell somewhere Dennis Surgenor.

Wonder if anyone can tell me what is meant by the phrase "black dutch?" My grandmother Ara Mae Surginer always said that her dad "Fate" (W.L. or Wesley Lafeyete Surginer)said their family was "Black Dutch" and "a drop in the bucket" cherokee. By the way, Surginers in that family spell their last name variously: Surginer or Surgener. The spellings of "Lafeyete" also vary on both sides of the family. I have many other names in this particular line, by the way, if anyone is researching. Mostly from Texas, from KY via TN. I am stuck between 1860 and the 1830 Surginers and can't find a clear path, like many of you. I Continue to read contributions to the list with interest. Kay Shock [email protected] _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

NI = Northern Ireland. I thought it was quite funny what you said. You seemed surprised to see Surgenors outside the US. There are Surgenors, all over the place: England, Scotland, Ireland, NZ, Australia, Canada. There is even one in Thailand at the moment :-) Yes my Surgenors are Irish for the moment (That is, I expect to go bck to Scotland if I can get past an 1830 barrier in my research). But if you dig deep enough you will probably find that your Surgenors like mine originated in Northern Ireland and before that probably Scotland, and before that Heugenots (spelling?), long before Columbus landed in the US :-) But all this aside, if you happen to stumble on any Northern Ireland connections please do contact me. Just in case you are not aware, (I assume this because you don't know about Surgenors outside the US)check this URL. You will find it very enlightening: http://www.vyger.fsnet.co.uk/index.html Very best regards, Berny Liverpool, England -----Original Message----- From: Tina Hall [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: 30 March 2001 17:42 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [SURGENER-L] Surgener: Balymena, Antrim May I ask what is NI? I am unfamiliar with it. It seems that yours are all outside of the US. I haven't seen any data from other sources, but I will keep an eye out for you. Tina Hall SURGENER list manager -----Original Message----- From: Goodheart, Berny [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 1:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [SURGENER-L] Surgenor: Balymena, Antrim Hi there, I have seen a lot of action recently on this list so I thought I would repost my details just in case it rings any bells with anyone. Surgenor is my paternal grandmother's lineage. My Surgenors came from Balymena, Antrim, NI. 1 George?? Surgenor, Brocklamont/Ballymena. . +unknown ..... 2 John Surgenor - 12 May 1887, Ballyclose/Ballymena ....... +Isabella (Belle) Spence after 1887 Kells/Ballymena ........... 3 George Surgenor 1834 - 2 Feb 1864, Ballyclose ............. +Margaret (Peggy) McIlwraith/McIlwrath/McElrath 15 Sep 1829 - 5 Feb 1897, Cullybackey ................. 4 William Surgenor 29 Apr 1862, Ballyclose ................. 4 James Surgenor 25 Mar 1860, Ballyclose ....................+ Sarah Craig McFall/McFaul 25 May 1858, Craigs Co. Antrim ........... 3 James Surgenor, Antrim Town ........... 3 Sarah Surgenor ............. +James Johnston ........... 3 Ann Surgenor 1836, probably Ballymena ............. +Will Taylor ................. 4 Samual Taylor a.k.a. Surgenor 2 Jun 1869 ................. 4 Mathew Taylor ........... 3 William Surgenor 15 Sep 1843, Ballymena ........... 3 Thomas Hugh Surgenor 20 Oct 1846, probably Ballymena ..... 2 James Surgenor Ballymoney/Portglenone and Australia ==== SURGENER Mailing List ==== +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ To unsubscribe, send the message "unsubscribe" without the quotes to: [email protected] ============================== Shop Ancestry - Everything you need to Discover, Preserve & Celebrate your heritage! http://shop.myfamily.com/ancestrycatalog

For Ireland, Scotland, British Isles, Canada, Australia, as well as U.S. Surgeners, see contributions from members on the SURGENER webpages at: http://home.rmci.net/adamewa/index.htm Ruby

NI IS NORTHERN IRELAND. THANKS.

That drop in the bucket Cherokee is probably why you've heard the term "Black Dutch". It was a phrase used by people who had Indian blood in them, but were afraid to admit it for fear of being sent west. It's the same with the term Black Irish as well. It was a way of stepping around the fact that you had Indian in you at a time when that information would have taken you away from your loved ones who were not of Indian descent. I'm not an expert on this. I just happened to do a lookup on it. Many web sites were vague on the meaning and even indicate that it's a vague term. If anyone else can shed a little more light on the subject, or correct me. Please do. I have never researched "Black Dutch", but have seen the question posed before. I just couldn't remember the responses. Tina Hall SURGENER list manager -----Original Message----- From: Kay Shock [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [SURGENER-L] surgener question Wonder if anyone can tell me what is meant by the phrase "black dutch?" My grandmother Ara Mae Surginer always said that her dad "Fate" (W.L. or Wesley Lafeyete Surginer)said their family was "Black Dutch" and "a drop in the bucket" cherokee. By the way, Surginers in that family spell their last name variously: Surginer or Surgener. The spellings of "Lafeyete" also vary on both sides of the family. I have many other names in this particular line, by the way, if anyone is researching. Mostly from Texas, from KY via TN. I am stuck between 1860 and the 1830 Surginers and can't find a clear path, like many of you. I Continue to read contributions to the list with interest. Kay Shock [email protected]

I will do that, Berny. I had an idea that NI might have something to do with Ireland, but wasn't sure. Not really surprised to see them outside of the US, but I didn't know anyone on the list was searching outside of the US at the moment. My Sojourners were originally LaJournier's from France. A French Huegenot, Mrs. LaJournier fled France with 4 children in tow. We don't know what happened to her spouse. She lands in Charleston, SC between 1740 and 1750. They changed their name to Sojourner and moved to MS with the Jersey settlers who ended up in Adams county, MS. They moved there with Rev. Swayze and the rest of his followers. I haven't done the research myself, so am still looking for documents to back it all up. I will keep an eye out for your Irish Surgener's for you. Tina Hall SURGENER list manager -----Original Message----- From: Goodheart, Berny [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 10:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [SURGENER-L] Surgener: Balymena, Antrim NI = Northern Ireland. I thought it was quite funny what you said. You seemed surprised to see Surgenors outside the US. There are Surgenors, all over the place: England, Scotland, Ireland, NZ, Australia, Canada. There is even one in Thailand at the moment :-) Yes my Surgenors are Irish for the moment (That is, I expect to go bck to Scotland if I can get past an 1830 barrier in my research). But if you dig deep enough you will probably find that your Surgenors like mine originated in Northern Ireland and before that probably Scotland, and before that Heugenots (spelling?), long before Columbus landed in the US :-) But all this aside, if you happen to stumble on any Northern Ireland connections please do contact me. Just in case you are not aware, (I assume this because you don't know about Surgenors outside the US)check this URL. You will find it very enlightening: http://www.vyger.fsnet.co.uk/index.html Very best regards, Berny Liverpool, England

Hi there, I have seen a lot of action recently on this list so I thought I would repost my details just in case it rings any bells with anyone. Surgenor is my paternal grandmother's lineage. My Surgenors came from Balymena, Antrim, NI. 1 George?? Surgenor, Brocklamont/Ballymena. . +unknown ..... 2 John Surgenor - 12 May 1887, Ballyclose/Ballymena ....... +Isabella (Belle) Spence after 1887 Kells/Ballymena ........... 3 George Surgenor 1834 - 2 Feb 1864, Ballyclose ............. +Margaret (Peggy) McIlwraith/McIlwrath/McElrath 15 Sep 1829 - 5 Feb 1897, Cullybackey ................. 4 William Surgenor 29 Apr 1862, Ballyclose ................. 4 James Surgenor 25 Mar 1860, Ballyclose ....................+ Sarah Craig McFall/McFaul 25 May 1858, Craigs Co. Antrim ........... 3 James Surgenor, Antrim Town ........... 3 Sarah Surgenor ............. +James Johnston ........... 3 Ann Surgenor 1836, probably Ballymena ............. +Will Taylor ................. 4 Samual Taylor a.k.a. Surgenor 2 Jun 1869 ................. 4 Mathew Taylor ........... 3 William Surgenor 15 Sep 1843, Ballymena ........... 3 Thomas Hugh Surgenor 20 Oct 1846, probably Ballymena ..... 2 James Surgenor Ballymoney/Portglenone and Australia

May I ask what is NI? I am unfamiliar with it. It seems that yours are all outside of the US. I haven't seen any data from other sources, but I will keep an eye out for you. Tina Hall SURGENER list manager -----Original Message----- From: Goodheart, Berny [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 1:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [SURGENER-L] Surgenor: Balymena, Antrim Hi there, I have seen a lot of action recently on this list so I thought I would repost my details just in case it rings any bells with anyone. Surgenor is my paternal grandmother's lineage. My Surgenors came from Balymena, Antrim, NI. 1 George?? Surgenor, Brocklamont/Ballymena. . +unknown ..... 2 John Surgenor - 12 May 1887, Ballyclose/Ballymena ....... +Isabella (Belle) Spence after 1887 Kells/Ballymena ........... 3 George Surgenor 1834 - 2 Feb 1864, Ballyclose ............. +Margaret (Peggy) McIlwraith/McIlwrath/McElrath 15 Sep 1829 - 5 Feb 1897, Cullybackey ................. 4 William Surgenor 29 Apr 1862, Ballyclose ................. 4 James Surgenor 25 Mar 1860, Ballyclose ....................+ Sarah Craig McFall/McFaul 25 May 1858, Craigs Co. Antrim ........... 3 James Surgenor, Antrim Town ........... 3 Sarah Surgenor ............. +James Johnston ........... 3 Ann Surgenor 1836, probably Ballymena ............. +Will Taylor ................. 4 Samual Taylor a.k.a. Surgenor 2 Jun 1869 ................. 4 Mathew Taylor ........... 3 William Surgenor 15 Sep 1843, Ballymena ........... 3 Thomas Hugh Surgenor 20 Oct 1846, probably Ballymena ..... 2 James Surgenor Ballymoney/Portglenone and Australia

I have changed the list so that when you respond to a message, it will go to the list. If you wish your message to go only to the person posting, then please be sure the to field shows that person's e-mail address. have a great day! Tina Hall [email protected] Tina's Family Genealogy Page: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~thall Steve's and Tina's Home pages: http://home1.gte.net/~res00waz/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "If you cannot get rid of the family skeleton, make it dance!" ~ George Bernard Shaw +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is a tough one. They could be the same family. If the question was not posed correctly then in one census they could have been asked "Where did you come from?" as opposed to "Where were you born?" He could have been "born" in VA but moved to TN from NC and "came from" NC would make sense. I can't see Abraham aging only 3 years, but it sometimes happens that ages were also confused. He may have answered the questions one year and she the next year. There could be many reasons for the differences, and the obvious one would be that they are 2 different households. I believe they moved on to AR? Has that state been checked thoroughly for Abraham in 1860? Could his name be misspelled? Tina Hall SURGENER list manager -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 2:49 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [SURGENER-L] 1850 Whitley Co., KY I just looked at the 1860 Knox Co., KY, census for Abraham Surgener. The two (1850 and 1860) are so different, are they TWO different Abrahams as Joyce suggested, or are ages very wrong on one or the other and one was using first names and the other middle names? They are both below for comparison. Ruby .................... 1850 Dist. No. 2, Whitley, KY, p:424 (M432 #222) Fam 515/515 SURGENOR, Abraham, 43, farmer, $175, NC, cannot read/write Nancy, 41, NC, cannot read/write Susan, 16, KY, attended school w/in yr Malinda, 14, KY, ditto Nathan, 11, KY, ditto Rachael, 9, KY, ditto Isaiah, 6, KY, ditto David, 4, KY -------------------------------- 1860 Paynes Dist., Knox Co., KY, p:30 (M432 #380) [Also: www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ky/knox/census/1860/0030.gif] SURGEONER, ABRAHAM, 46 - farmer - VA Seala, 44, TN Lucinda, 23, KY Malinda, 22, KY David, 20, KY Koziha, 18, KY William, 16, KY Susan, 14, KY Stephen, 12, KY Mary Jane, 10, KY Robert, 8, KY