Hello Roy Many thanks for your email and interest. I have thought for a long time that she was illegitimate, because I have never been able to find anything on her prior to the wedding. Everything surrounding her and that period in time, from her possible year of birth 1872 until 1911. Whilst in Scotland some years ago, my daughter, on seeing a sign post to Peebles, chirped up with "That's where come from, isn't it"? That's what got me into FH. She told me that my father had told her we were from Peebles. But she had only been 10 or 12 when my dad told her, and he was no longer with us. Yes the Peebles link is a good possibility, having been taken there shortly after Helen died. And I do recall my parents going through church records. I also have a vague recollection (I was only 8) that they couldn't find what they were looking for because they had been destroyed by fire. My daughter now lives in Dunfermline, so I have been to Peebles many times, without finding anything even flimsy, let alone concrete. Two things are tending to steer me away from Peebles is that I also recall coming home with a Lamont tartan tie. If you look into the Tartans and there connections, you will find the TURNER family. And my mum was a TURNER. Also, early last year I found that Helen's husband's, half sister married Henry PEEBLES who was born in East Dereham, Norfolk in 1858. His father was born in Neatishead, Norfolk. The line goes back to Kirkliston, West Lothian, Scotland. Got that line back to the mid 1700's and trying to come forward and see if there is a connection there. Could possibly be a Red Herring. The other side of things is that the line keeps pointing back to Brighton. That's where Helens husband Thomas, was born. Thomas had 2 sisters (as well as 2 half sisters from his mothers first marriage) and one of his sisters married their mothers, 1st husbands, brothers, son. That family lived in Brighton. Their mother was born just outside Brighton and married there and had 2 girls. Thomas's father moved from Lancashire to Brighton to work on the railway. Met Ruth now a widow, they moved to Kilburn where he was the pattern maker with Saxby & Farmer signal makers and died of smallpox in May 1871. So Ruth obviously took her 2 daughters from her 1st marriage back to Brighton to see their grandparents and cousins etc, and obviously taken the 4 children from her second marriage. As you can see it is all very complicated, and the plot thickens because where her 1st husband had lived, there was in 1881 a Helen Wilson living there. She has been disproved as have the others in the area. Then to make matters worse, when we get to the 1911 census, Helen is living on her own. Her husband is in a convalescence home in Bognor Regis. Their daughter Edith is with an aunt in south London and their son (My Grandfather) is in Maidenhead, Berkshire. It took me ages to find him because he is shown as Alfred LOUSDALE. (his name is Thomas Alfred) He was living with George CRIPPS and his family. George CRIPPS was a Railway Clerk on the Gt Western, and Thomas later worked as pantry boy on the Exeter Tea Car that left Paddington at 4pm every day. (He went on to work the Royal Train for the tour of Crown Prince Hirohito in 1921 and died in 1925 aged 25) Mrs Eleanor Cripps was Eleanor Caroline BUNCE and she married George CRIPPS at Kensington in December 1885 volume 1a page 315. Eleanor BUNCE was christened 23 JUN 1861at St Andrew'S Church, Hertford daughter of John and Eliza. In 1871 she lived with her widowed mother Eliza at 3 Percy Rd, Willesden RG10 piece 1329 folio 56 page 41 along with sisters Jane 6, Emily 5 months and brother Charles aged 4. BUT in 1881 she was a servant in Brighton. Back to Brighton again. In 1901 George CRIPPS and Eleanor C were living at 6 Clarmont Road, Willesden, Middlesex - RG13; Piece: 1220; Folio: 53; Page: 38 That's the address where Thomas Alfred was born in March 1900. So as you can see this line has many twists and turns in it. So what are her roots, was she born in Yarmouth? Was she born in Peebles? Or was she really a PEEBLES? Or did she come from Brighton? So after more than 15 years of searching, I am no nearer finding Helen Elizabeth WILSON. And I maybe never will, but I'll keep looking. Thank you again Regards Michael PS. All these twists and turns would make a great story line in one or the period dramas like Downton Abbey, wouldn't it. Michael On 23-Sep-12 8:11 PM, [email protected] wrote: > From: [email protected] > >> From: Mike Fry <[email protected]> >> >>> On 2012/09/22 17:05, Michael wrote: >>> >>>> I'm having great trouble trying to pin down my Gt Granny who >>> according to the 1901 census was born Yarmouth, Suffolk in 1872 >>> and according to the 1911 census Yarmouth, Norfolk in 1873. >>>> >>>> According to her marriage certificate of February 1899, >>>> Kilburn, Middlesex. She was the daughter of John WILSON a deceased >>> fisherman. >>> >>> Sounds as though she was illegitimate in which case, she was >>> probably registered under her mother's name. No Helen Elizabeth's that I can see for >>> that period. >>> Plenty of Ellen Elizabeth's though :-)> >> >> I wouldn't always put too much credence on a named father on a >> marriage certificate. >> >> In my experience people who were born illegitimate often "invented" >> a father on a marriage certificate to avoid embarrassment if they didn't wish to tell their >> intended or the vicar! >> >> I have seen a number of certificates where I knew for a fact that >> the father of one of the parties was an invention.> > > I presume the gt-grandmother of Michael, the OP, was Hellen [sic] Elizabeth Wilson who > married Thomas Barlow Lonsdale at Kilburn Holy Trinity on 19 Feb 1899 (Ancestry's London > Parish Registers)? In the 1901 census she is indeed shown as being born at Yarmouth, > Suffolk, Thomas B Lonsdale was born 1868 at Brighton and they had a son of one, born > 1900 at Willesden. > > Like Mike in South Africa, I think Hellen (or whatever her name was) was born illegitimate > and, as I said, she probably invented a father on her marriage certificate. FreeBMD has no > Helen Elizabeth Wilson born at Yarmouth in 1872 or thereabouts, which of course is not to > say conclusively that her father wasn't John Wilson, fisherman! > > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Maybe they were Gypsies Michael with all of the twists and turns. Have you checked the Romany family websites. Edie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:49 PM Subject: Re: [SFK-UK] bastardy orders > Hello Roy > > Many thanks for your email and interest. > > I have thought for a long time that she was illegitimate, because I have > never been able to find anything on her prior to the wedding. > > Everything surrounding her and that period in time, from her possible > year of birth 1872 until 1911. > > Whilst in Scotland some years ago, my daughter, on seeing a sign post to > Peebles, chirped up with "That's where come from, isn't it"? That's what > got me into FH. She told me that my father had told her we were from > Peebles. But she had only been 10 or 12 when my dad told her, and he was > no longer with us. > > Yes the Peebles link is a good possibility, having been taken there > shortly after Helen died. And I do recall my parents going through > church records. I also have a vague recollection (I was only 8) that > they couldn't find what they were looking for because they had been > destroyed by fire. > > My daughter now lives in Dunfermline, so I have been to Peebles many > times, without finding anything even flimsy, let alone concrete. > > Two things are tending to steer me away from Peebles is that I also > recall coming home with a Lamont tartan tie. If you look into the > Tartans and there connections, you will find the TURNER family. And my > mum was a TURNER. > > Also, early last year I found that Helen's husband's, half sister > married Henry PEEBLES who was born in East Dereham, Norfolk in 1858. His > father was born in Neatishead, Norfolk. The line goes back to > Kirkliston, West Lothian, Scotland. Got that line back to the mid 1700's > and trying to come forward and see if there is a connection there. > > Could possibly be a Red Herring. > > The other side of things is that the line keeps pointing back to > Brighton. That's where Helens husband Thomas, was born. > Thomas had 2 sisters (as well as 2 half sisters from his mothers first > marriage) and one of his sisters married their mothers, 1st husbands, > brothers, son. That family lived in Brighton. > > Their mother was born just outside Brighton and married there and had 2 > girls. Thomas's father moved from Lancashire to Brighton to work on the > railway. Met Ruth now a widow, they moved to Kilburn where he was the > pattern maker with Saxby & Farmer signal makers and died of smallpox in > May 1871. > > So Ruth obviously took her 2 daughters from her 1st marriage back to > Brighton to see their grandparents and cousins etc, and obviously taken > the 4 children from her second marriage. > > As you can see it is all very complicated, and the plot thickens because > where her 1st husband had lived, there was in 1881 a Helen Wilson living > there. She has been disproved as have the others in the area. > > Then to make matters worse, when we get to the 1911 census, Helen is > living on her own. Her husband is in a convalescence home in Bognor > Regis. Their daughter Edith is with an aunt in south London and their > son (My Grandfather) is in Maidenhead, Berkshire. > > It took me ages to find him because he is shown as Alfred LOUSDALE. (his > name is Thomas Alfred) He was living with George CRIPPS and his family. > George CRIPPS was a Railway Clerk on the Gt Western, and Thomas later > worked as pantry boy on the Exeter Tea Car that left Paddington at 4pm > every day. (He went on to work the Royal Train for the tour of Crown > Prince Hirohito in 1921 and died in 1925 aged 25) > > Mrs Eleanor Cripps was Eleanor Caroline BUNCE and she married George > CRIPPS at Kensington in December 1885 volume 1a page 315. > Eleanor BUNCE was christened 23 JUN 1861at St Andrew'S Church, Hertford > daughter of John and Eliza. > In 1871 she lived with her widowed mother Eliza at 3 Percy Rd, Willesden > RG10 piece 1329 folio 56 page 41 along with sisters Jane 6, Emily 5 > months and brother Charles aged 4. > > BUT in 1881 she was a servant in Brighton. Back to Brighton again. > > In 1901 George CRIPPS and Eleanor C were living at 6 Clarmont Road, > Willesden, Middlesex - RG13; Piece: 1220; Folio: 53; Page: 38 That's the > address where Thomas Alfred was born in March 1900. > > So as you can see this line has many twists and turns in it. > So what are her roots, was she born in Yarmouth? > Was she born in Peebles? > Or was she really a PEEBLES? > Or did she come from Brighton? > So after more than 15 years of searching, I am no nearer finding Helen > Elizabeth WILSON. And I maybe never will, but I'll keep looking. > > Thank you again > Regards > Michael > > PS. All these twists and turns would make a great story line in one or > the period dramas like Downton Abbey, wouldn't it. > Michael > > > > On 23-Sep-12 8:11 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> From: [email protected] >> >>> From: Mike Fry <[email protected]> >>> >>>> On 2012/09/22 17:05, Michael wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm having great trouble trying to pin down my Gt Granny who >>>> according to the 1901 census was born Yarmouth, Suffolk in 1872 >>>> and according to the 1911 census Yarmouth, Norfolk in 1873. >>>>> >>>>> According to her marriage certificate of February 1899, >>>>> Kilburn, Middlesex. She was the daughter of John WILSON a deceased >>>> fisherman. >>>> >>>> Sounds as though she was illegitimate in which case, she was >>>> probably registered under her mother's name. No Helen Elizabeth's that >>>> I can see for >>>> that period. >>>> Plenty of Ellen Elizabeth's though :-)> >>> >>> I wouldn't always put too much credence on a named father on a >>> marriage certificate. >>> >>> In my experience people who were born illegitimate often "invented" >>> a father on a marriage certificate to avoid embarrassment if they didn't >>> wish to tell their >>> intended or the vicar! >>> >>> I have seen a number of certificates where I knew for a fact that >>> the father of one of the parties was an invention.> >> >> I presume the gt-grandmother of Michael, the OP, was Hellen [sic] >> Elizabeth Wilson who >> married Thomas Barlow Lonsdale at Kilburn Holy Trinity on 19 Feb 1899 >> (Ancestry's London >> Parish Registers)? In the 1901 census she is indeed shown as being born >> at Yarmouth, >> Suffolk, Thomas B Lonsdale was born 1868 at Brighton and they had a son >> of one, born >> 1900 at Willesden. >> >> Like Mike in South Africa, I think Hellen (or whatever her name was) was >> born illegitimate >> and, as I said, she probably invented a father on her marriage >> certificate. FreeBMD has no >> Helen Elizabeth Wilson born at Yarmouth in 1872 or thereabouts, which of >> course is not to >> say conclusively that her father wasn't John Wilson, fisherman! >> >> >> -- >> Roy Stockdill >> Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer >> Famous family trees blog: http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/tag/roy-stockdill/ >> >> "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, >> and that is not being talked about." >> OSCAR WILDE >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >